Can we please get a serious 24-man raid in 3.1?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Ok, but what about those who don't have that many people in their FC? Tough luck?

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Keep in mind I didn't say rid us of 8 person content, however it is valid to state that in fact there is no large scale raids for BIG FC's. There is nothing negative about widening the spectrum. Its not tough luck frankly...there will still be small FC's. There will still be DF, and there will still be PF. Simply put just as small groups have asked for content, large groups are asking for the same. Should we ignore the fact that there is no large scale content?

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Originally Posted by Felis

only joinable as premade party and share weekly gear drop with normal mode

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Then practically no one would do it, just as it happened with Savage Second Coil.

It's too expensive in terms of resources/how many people actually participate. Content takes time to develop, test, balance, model, and so forth. It's a massive investment. And when you're talking about content that by its very nature is meant to limit access, this looks like an increasingly top-heavy investment. Spending a huge amount of time and resources on content that most players won't see/complete is foolish.

LOL at someone saying "not my problem, my 15 bucks will cover it" plz go. there's a reason why MMOs moved away from that type of raid model, its not sustainable. cost/effective.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

It's too expensive in terms of resources/how many people actually participate. Content takes time to develop, test, balance, model, and so forth. It's a massive investment. And when you're talking about content that by its very nature is meant to limit access, this looks like an increasingly top-heavy investment. Spending a huge amount of time and resources on content that most players won't see/complete is foolish.

LOL at someone saying "not my problem, my 15 bucks will cover it" plz go. there's a reason why MMOs moved away from that type of raid model, its not sustainable. cost/effective.

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How can the raid be too expensive when they are already developing it right now? It's just a matter of fixing the difficulty/mechanics in a different mode.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

A story mode that currently gives you the best gear in the game.

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For the next day and a half.....

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

Spending the time and resources requires to make a 24 man "challeging" raid for "hardcores" it's not worth it, terrible deal for SE cuz the "99%" will not enjoy it/ try it/ clear it and the "hardcores" will finish it in few hours/days, get all the items they care in a few weeks and then say they are boring / jump to another game till next update/ just stop logging.

Learned from WildStar: hardcore audience focused content = bad deal /// Social-Casual content = great deal + more clients + more money

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Yet, every single day, we see lots of threads on the forums about people complaining that there aren't enough endgame contents and plenty of those people have been leaving the game for that precise reason during all A Realm Reborn.

Also, it's 3.0 now: 2.0 is required content and there are still casual contents pretty much everywhere you look (and probably there will always be), but do you know what's the in-game goal of 99% of players I see? Exactly, it is to eventually be able to raid. Maybe not in the hardest raids as soon as they come out, but at least in the intermediate ones that don't require a static. How is having only one 8-man raid at any specific time a good thing for this game?

why a serious 24 men raid when WoD fail horrible atm ? CT and ST have fail alliance too but not to the point of vote disband like WoD.

If players cannot do an easy 24 men raid, we really don't need for a harder one

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

doable by a premade alliance (not random PUGs in the DF)

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Do love how you all wanna shut out a percentage of the player base.

A game does not thrive by focusing on the select few hardcore players over the regular run of the mill players. Wildstar learned this the hard way, and WoW is getting its own lesson on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Do love how you all wanna shut out a percentage of the player base.

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Not at all. If there was a Normal mode and a Hard mode, then it would make sense if you weren't able to clear the Hard mode at launch with random people in the duty finder, just like it already happens with the Coils and the EX Primals; after a while, they could add echo or whatever and make it available in duty finder like everything else.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

A game does not thrive by focusing on the select few hardcore players over the regular run of the mill players. Wildstar learned this the hard way, and WoW is getting its own lesson on the subject.

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Exclusively adding content that can be cleared by literally anyone and that becomes boring and irrelevant after the first few weeks (if not days) has an even worse effect.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

It's too expensive in terms of resources/how many people actually participate. Content takes time to develop, test, balance, model, and so forth. It's a massive investment. And when you're talking about content that by its very nature is meant to limit access, this looks like an increasingly top-heavy investment. Spending a huge amount of time and resources on content that most players won't see/complete is foolish.

LOL at someone saying "not my problem, my 15 bucks will cover it" plz go. there's a reason why MMOs moved away from that type of raid model, its not sustainable. cost/effective.

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Nobody is asking for hardcore 24 man raids. But there is a middle ground between too easy and too hard.

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8 - At the moment they are doing pretty damn good.

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Actually I wouldn't be so sure about that (at least in US and EU).

I agree with the OP. It has nothing to do with keeping a percentage of the playerbase out (how did this thought even come to mind?) nor about being hardcore.
It's about fun, comradery, social bonds with our FC. He is completely right, there is no point in being an FC really, just for the buffs and the house. Being part of a Linkshell or FC, being part of a group, a family sort of thing makes the playerbase enjoy their time in the game more because you get to know these people better and it's just completly different experience than that of a PUG party, or DF (can't even add players from other servers you meet on DF to your friendlist...). It's just random people you will probably never see again and most of them are just there to get fights done, not to get to know you, so it's not as easy to create a bond, unless you are really outgoing and they decide to get to know you, too (but we know farm parties are just there to get down with business...).

So it's not about the raid being hard or easy, that's not what it is about. It's about doing meaningful content with our FCs, to create bonds! The airship crafting is a step in the right direction and I am happy about it, now I can work together with my FC members for one same objective and it is so much fun.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

A game does not thrive by focusing on the select few hardcore players over the regular run of the mill players. Wildstar learned this the hard way, and WoW is getting its own lesson on the subject.

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That's horseshit. WoW only started losing subs as it started making raids more accessible with LFR and simplifying it's talent system. And while I haven't played Wildstar, the endgame has been one of the only praises the game has gotten, it's everything besides it that it's getting critique for, for example the boring leveling and class balance.

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Originally Posted by Lucidbro

That's horseshit. WoW only started losing subs as it started making raids more accessible with LFR and simplifying it's talent system. And while I haven't played Wildstar, the endgame has been one of the only praises the game has gotten, it's everything besides it that it's getting critique for, for example the boring leveling and class balance.

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Wildstar endgame has had more than its fair share of negative critique, especially the ridiculous attunement.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

If players cannot do an easy 24 men raid, we really don't need for a harder one

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This is actually very ironic, considering people could not do Second coil of Bahamut, and yet they added Savage. And there are clearly people who can't handle Alexander atm and the harder version is around the corner.

"Less-capable players are trying to run current content and failing, so there should be no reason to add harder content."


inb4 I'm accused of wanting savage-level 24-man.

oh, and-

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

why a serious 24 men raid when WoD fail horrible atm?

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I can count on one hand how many times the alliance was hopeless enough to abandon duty for WoD. Not that you even have an argument here when we're talking premades on server-side. Seriously, the DF Crystal Tower series has scarred some people so bad apparently that they can't imagine anything else.

It all boils down to mechanic. Prior to way overgearing them, CT,ST and WoD can result (and still does sometimes) in a wipe if a mechanic is ignored. Making it "harder" will be meaningless oce everyone knows the mechanic

There really needs to be Story and Hard mode versions of the next 24 man content. I always felt since Crystal Tower, that it was a huge waste. Why put in all that effort to make content to just give us Glamour. It should be the same way current alexander is. Normal Mode gives one set of lower ilvls and the Hard Mode gives a higher set. Yoshida really has to break the previous system, of having 8 man content and tomes being the only place to get BiS gear.

But you know Yoshida, He doesn't think about stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

It's too expensive in terms of resources/how many people actually participate.

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Not that this is true, but if Yoshida would change things, it would increase the longevity of content. Right now the Vertical Progression system is making this game boring. It's always the same thing. You could take a 6 month break, come back and in one week, you can catch up with everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Not that this is true, but if Yoshida would change things, it would increase the longevity of content. Right now the Vertical Progression system is making this game boring. It's always the same thing. You could take a 6 month break, come back and in one week, you can catch up with everyone else.

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Rather have this system than having to play catchup for weeks/months depending on your playtime and begging people to carry you through stuff they outplayed months ago.

Or trying to obtain different pieces of Armour for different fights, lowering GC for skills, etc? Ultimately the choices presented to players by "horizontal" progression don't matter, and characters will be equipped with whichever items best boost their key stats best, and cause people to be left out and talked down to because they don't have X gear for X fight.

Probably be another Allaghan Theme Raid. Most likely people will be able to slice right through it as it'll probably drop gear between i170-i200 for the first part of it. Since within 2 months people will be fully geared in Esoteric Gear/Alexander Savage.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

This would be an incentive to get a better/bigger FC. Or a nice, big LS. Or really an FC that isn't just some multiple of 8.

Really, I don't know why people are to repugnant to the idea of challenging content for big groups; they've been a staple for MMO's since the beginning.

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An idea being perpetuated 'since the beginning' is a terrible reason. See: Taboo IRL topics that I won't specifically mention as a foundation of why its a poor argument.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

You don't want to join a bigger FC? That's perfectly fine: what prevents you from joining a dedicated Linkshell? Or creating/joining a party finder? Or shouting in the area close to the raid? Hell, you could even "ally" with another FC and form a mixed alliance.

...And then people complain this game isn't social enough.

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I wasn't aware that people were clamoring for a game of logistics. I thought they were specifically seeking out game-play from their game.

23 people who have their kids wake up, bad weather KOing their internet, have to go to bed for work, their fish is drowning, etc. and then you get to try to find someone else, if you even can, and possibly get them up to speed on mechanics because difficult encounters often have steep learning curves, and then have people more experienced be patient for these new people for the thirtieth time from quitters instead of finding their own subset later that doesn't work for another sect of friends because of their scheduling conflicts for their jobs that pay the subscription and-- good lord, could we just play the game already?


Edit: As a footnote, the topic itself probably annoys me a bit more because I'm from a 10-man guild that abandoned ship on Mythic. We had a set of people that had a schedule that rarely anyone could conform to (Fridays and Saturdays), and we'd have to cut out playing with friends we were playing with for years to satisfy the sudden conditions of recruiting, or disbanding and melding with another guild (This would still involve cutting out friends to match their times, btw.). Guess what? We chose the SOCIAL option of playing with our friends and moved on to another game. Because Zzz @ Flex.

Large scale raids have never been fun. Let's say you have a big FC. Why can 't you just do multiple groups like every big FC ever? If we had a srsface 24man raid come out it'd kinda be a slap in the face of the current big FCs that do do multiple groups. They'd end up cutting tanks somehow, considering atm you generally have two tanks per group. What if they don't want to play something other than tank? Why should they change because a _TINY MINORITY_ of people want a big raid?

http://youtu.be/3zNjQecyjE8

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Originally Posted by Edmond_Guilford

Large scale raids have never been fun. Let's say you have a big FC. Why can 't you just do multiple groups like every big FC ever? If we had a srsface 24man raid come out it'd kinda be a slap in the face of the current big FCs that do do multiple groups. They'd end up cutting tanks somehow, considering atm you generally have two tanks per group. What if they don't want to play something other than tank? Why should they change because a _TINY MINORITY_ of people want a big raid?

http://youtu.be/3zNjQecyjE8

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Large scale raids are more about the feeling then anything else.
I remember 40 man raids in wow (yes 40 people) and you could actually all get into a massive room and not be limited by 1 tiny corner at a time.
It's just the scale that makes it more impressive.

I ve led largescale raids back in EQ, we routinely did race for worldfirsts or serverfirsts with 65+ people on raid nights, going beyond 70 often. Its great fun. 40 man Blackwing Lair in WoW classic was fun too. 20 man Zul Gurub worldfirst hakkar after he was buffed was awesome.

Its really more a matter of getting the right people, and enjoying the logistical and motivational challenge. Also, modern gamers are a much more diverse group, and feel much more entitled, less suitable to unite them into an efficient raid force.

Either way, the best times I ve had in FFXIV so far were the original Pharos Sirius (which ppl didnt like to run because it wasnt easy and efficient to get tomestones), the original Twintania, Leviathan Extreme on its release, pre-nerf Steps of Faith on the very first day. ALl of these hit a sweet spot, for me, between effort and reward. Sadly, it seems i am in the minority there.

I think the most important thing, which WoW seems to exemplify in both its successes and failures, is to always have an enticing, big piece of content ahead of the large majority of the playerbase, and possibly even the dedicated core. A content ceiling that only few reach initially. Something to strive for.

Its natural that people, if you ask them on a given day, prefer being handed stuff for , almost, no effort. Failing the 3rd time vs. Titan Extreme, by itself, is not fun. It is part of the larger experience of success when you finally get it down though, it builds to that.

Wow, the amount of people who missed the OPs point.

I want them to add a 24 man savage mode raid and make it available in the duty finder just to see the tears that would flood the forums. There would be so many stories of player hostility.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Large scale raids are more about the feeling then anything else.
I remember 40 man raids in wow (yes 40 people) and you could actually all get into a massive room and not be limited by 1 tiny corner at a time.
It's just the scale that makes it more impressive.

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Anyone here done a 64 man Dynamis-Xarcabard? I have... fun times.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Anyone here done a 64 man Dynamis-Xarcabard? I have... fun times.

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That's what we need.

Yes please, or some NEW content besides the same ol stuff ; ;

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Originally Posted by Arkista

That's what we need.

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That's also hell to organize, especially in this day and age with people's limited patience. Was hard enough to organize even back then. Even when we put when the scheduled run would be a week in advance, we still had to wait outside the entrance for 30-60 mins just waiting for people to gather...

Ppl playing MMOs back then were about 15 to 22 years without many responsibilities. Now, the same ppl still play MMOs but are 5 to 10 years older with a bit more real life. It is already something to organize 8 ppl nowadays, I wouldn't want to organize 24 ppl today. Back then, e.g. in Anarchy Online stuff like Pandemonium Raids with 50+ ppl were fun.
MMOs have to adapt to its audience. FF is doing great on this point, even with limited time you can have good progress and success even on the hardest content, speaking as a family father with regular 40h job who cleared stuff before nerf and got Zeta :)

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

Ppl playing MMOs back then were about 15 to 22 years without many responsibilities. Now, the same ppl still play MMOs but are 5 to 10 years older with a bit more real life. It is already something to organize 8 ppl nowadays, I wouldn't want to organize 24 ppl today. Back then, e.g. in Anarchy Online stuff like Pandemonium Raids with 50+ ppl were fun.
MMOs have to adapt to its audience. FF is doing great on this point, even with limited time you can have good progress and success even on the hardest content, speaking as a family father with regular 40h job who cleared stuff before nerf and got Zeta :)

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I really don't understand this whole "people don't have time for raids anymore". Sure, you and other people may have grown older and have less time than before, but many, many other people, especially the younger ones, are playing this as their first MMO and are looking forward to get invested in it. Just like all the other already existing long-term contents (such as crafting, gathering, dungeon farming or relic quests), raiding is an endgame content, another extra that has the purpose of making you enjoy the game for much longer and grow bonds with other players by spending time together, which is pretty much the basis of any MMO: if you don't have enough time for that, no one obliges you to do it.

If its for the story... why we need that extremly high ilvl170 to enter Alexander? >_>
People like me wont join the threadmill for gears!

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

A story mode that currently gives you the best gear in the game and has the same weekly lockout Crystal Tower had.

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It has the best gear for a few weeks until savage come out. Big deal. It is still meant to be casual.

As long as there is no reason for me to do it sure.

Game needs a real large scale raid in it that is not designed to be facerolled that has something meaningful that drops.

Atm there is almost no reason to even be in a guild besides buffs and the social aspect. Which is simply not enough. For progression purposes there is 0 reason to be in a guild and that is one of the largest problems with the game at endgame. The lack of purpose of guilds is why there is nothing but guild hoppers jumping from guild to guild as their statics change. It is just cancerous to the whole endgame guild community, the design makes it really hard to build a lasting guild. Guild turn over in this game is sky high, even in the "Top" guild on the servers because of this.

I know the argument of well some people have 4-5 man free companys... well it shouldn't matter this is a mmorpg. We have linkshells for social aspects and soon you can buy houses with several people if I remember right. People should be expected to join larger guilds to endgame in a mmo. It is sorta a genre defining element.

Worthwhile large scale raids would add purpose and meaning to a free company besides vanity housing, minor/negligible buffs, and a chat channel.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

It has the best gear for a few weeks until savage come out. Big deal. It is still meant to be casual.

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Just like Crystal Tower? Being an 8-man instance instead of a 24-man one doesn't really make it that much different.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

I really don't understand this whole "people don't have time for raids anymore". Sure, you and other people may have grown older and have less time than before, but many, many other people, especially the younger ones, are playing this as their first MMO and are looking forward to get invested in it. Just like all the other already existing long-term contents (such as crafting, gathering, dungeon farming or relic quests), raiding is an endgame content, another extra that has the purpose of making you enjoy the game for much longer and grow bonds with other players by spending time together, which is pretty much the basis of any MMO: if you don't have enough time for that, no one obliges you to do it.

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The new generation has more young people interested in mobile phone games that they can play in 10 minutes and then put down. I'm not saying young MMO players don't exist, but the generation that was willing to stand around for hours to organize a party in FFXI are in their 30s or 40s now. This particular generation of players now have jobs, a family, and responsibilities.

I'm pretty sure if they implemented a Savage difficulty 24 man raid and did not make it doable in the duty finder, few guilds in the game would have both the skill and the amount of players needed to take it down. Often in my experience the guild that has a lot of players 9 times out of 10 there are only a few good players among them.
I'm pretty sure if they allowed you to do it in the duty finder, it would breed a toxic environment where players rage at each other.

Raiding has never been about growing bonds. Raiding was always about a group learning through trial and error, improving and honing their skills. Hardcore raiding is a job and the group must oftentimes act professional if they hope to down the bleeding edge content. In FFXI leveling was great for bonding, but this has also been taken out as well. In FFXIV dungeons it's all about plowing through the mobs and finishing the dungeon as quick as possible, no time to talk unless you're all on VoIP. Best ways to bond in FFXIV? FATEs perhaps it's possible to chat occasionally with friends when you're FATE grinding when all FATEs are down in the area for a couple minutes. I suppose it is if your FC had player housing and they hung out there and messed around after raids and other such important events were over for the night.

Raiding in my experience has never ever been about bonding, and I've played MMOs for 15+ years. When my FC on Zalera pushed for server first on Twintania, there was no bonding. We had three groups of eight all separately going for the clear. After awhile, we had to kick those who were dragging us down and form a megagroup of the "best players" to clear it. It wasn't personal. Either way, such conditions does not promote "bonding" but rather the opposite, turns FC members against each other. I'm not saying every guild would be like this, but a lot would be if put through difficult 24 man raid content.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

If its for the story... why we need that extremly high ilvl170 to enter Alexander? >_>
People like me wont join the threadmill for gears!

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You can get ilvl170 within a week or two after capping of casual play, not exactly extremely high by any standards.

If they went out of their way to make a story mode version of Alexander, there is no reason not to make a hard mode version of the next 24 man raid. You can have the normal mode which would be in line with CT/ST/WOD and a more difficult version that would require a tighter checks that would require everyone to contribute at a decent to high level. It wouldn't need to be something you have to run every week nor would it have to drop good gear, just a challenging raid thats could just offer vanity items such as dyeable versions of the easy mode stuff, housing items, titles, minions etc.

Honestly its only fair to offer hard modes of what is genrally easy content if they are offering story mode versions of the challenging content. The more content the better, regardless of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

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I have to agree with some of this.

While I like that players who don't necessarily raid or have statics be able to experience the story of the raid dungeon, I would have preferred a Story/Normal mode (basically the difficulty we have now) a Hard mode (akin to Coil before Echo) and Savage (much harder than Hard). This way, people who are like me (middle of the pack) can have a challenge and experience "raiding" instead of easy mode or extremely hard mode (althought we have not seen what Savage will be like, from what we've been told its gonna be very hard, for cutting edge statics).

I want special loot again.

Procs, Wards, Activatables.. Q.Q Oh how I miss you...