Straight to the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

Every single person that says this needs to stop. Not everyone has a set schedule they can make time to meet people for a few hours in a game. For example, I do not know from week to week what nights I'll be working, nor do I know where in the state I'll be. I may have the time, but I do not have any way to schedule a set time to have a static. It's simply not possible. I am not the only one with a schedule like this.

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You could always do what I did for people in that situation, just set up a raid LFG Linkshell dedicated to finding competent groups on an as-needed basis and helping eachother out. I've found that if you just put up a simple advertisement, these types of LSs fill up EXTREMELY quickly, even on somewhat smaller servers. Still not saying it's easy, but just offering some advice to try and help out.

SE tested putting harder content in DF at the start with the first 3 EX primals. They found out almost nobody won in random df groups due to lack of cordination and teamwork. So now since then they wait till there is echo and nerfs so there is a much better chance df groups can win.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

So what exactly is stopping you from making your own PF group for it or asking some friends if they want to run it with you?

The idea that you absolutely need a static to clear hard content is patently false. I know multiple people who PUGed their way through Final Coil without a static. I cleared Final Coil without a static. If you really want to do it, you can make it happen. Saying otherwise is just making excuses.

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It's funny, but it seems like every time I see someone put "clear/learning" group up in the PF, or do it myself, it takes ages to actually fill. I also see a lot of folks join these said learning/clear groups and vote abandon/bail out after a couple shots at. Dealing with this for a while trying to get things done just takes the wind out of someones sails, ya know?

To NovaWulfe: That's actually not a bad, idea, may give it a shot.

Ilvl mean nothing, u can be ilv 300 and u will wipe due to mechanics... When hard content is added to df ...all one shot mechanics are nerf... Think of t7. The complete joke after was added to df.

With the way that loot is being distributed in Savage, it will not work in the DF until the looting rules change and the weekly lockout lifted. Since people can go back and run floors again but the team is penalized in the amount of chests they receive based off of how many repeat players are with them, people could consistently find themselves in a group that will either receive just 1 chest or no chests at the end of the floor. People could go in to practice for the next week and screw their team out of loot should a miracle win actually happen. It'd be hard to lock them out because they're looking for practice just like everyone else is, so it'd be unfair for Person A who hasn't cleared to be able to practice to their hearts content but Person B who may have gotten a clear but still unsure of execution can't enter.

The other options aren't any more appealing either.

You allow people to run as many times as they want but can only get one piece of loot per week. This makes selling runs rampant and promotes RMT.
You could remove the ability to allow people to re-run floors after clearing it but we're back to the first coil days where no one could help their FC out after clearing under any circumstances.
Removing the lockout completely isn't ever going to be an option cause that's the only way SE keeps the hardcore raiders subscribed for longer than a week.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE tested putting harder content in DF at the start with the first 3 EX primals. They found out almost nobody won in random df groups due to lack of cordination and teamwork. So now since then they wait till there is echo and nerfs so there is a much better chance df groups can win.

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It probably has a lot to do with the fact that most DF groups are at a huge disadvantage with their being no voice chat and half the hardcore content basically requiring it to stand a chance at coordinating.

The reason is simple. If they put EM primals and hard raids straight into DF, there would be loads of "omg nerf" threads on day 1.
People need to spend some time in PF and learn the stuff, to be actually able to DF anything harder.

T12-13 was pain in the ass even if the half of DF party had it cleared (when they released it to DF).. guess why..

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

People need to spend some time in PF and learn the stuff, to be actually able to DF anything harder.

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PF and DF are essentially the same thing except that one can draw from the whole data center and the other only from your local server. I can kind of understand (even if I don't agree with) the people saying only statics can do hard content, but it doesn't really fit to say you need a local PUG to learn it before doing it with a cross-server PUG.

So long as it's a separate DF entry and not part of a Roulette, so that everyone there is there explicitly for that content, your chances of a good random team are as good regardless of which pool you're drawing from to form that team, but it will form quicker if it's data center wide.

I don't get why everyone here assumes that the majority who use Duty Finder are the most awful players in game, I've been in plenty of Party Finder groups with party members who can't manage anything. Standing in AoEs, poor DPS, don't know the fight at all even though it's clear group, etc. I'd rather take my chances with Duty Finder instead of waiting 20-30 minutes for a Party Finder group to fill up.

Everything but Alexander Savage should be available through DF day one. Don't like it? Use PF, more options are never a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

The problem with this topic is that once they do that, the next threads will be people complaining they cannot do the current content with a random pug.
The next step will then be either nerfed content within weeks cause of the non stop whine or an LFR esque system which is another can of worms.
The way it is done now that statics/FC's clear the content and when it comes to duty finder they can add stuff like echo or straight up nerf so the rest can kill it.

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This pretty much hits the nail right on the head. The casual players when faced with random players and very challenging content, will then cause an uproar that they cannot complete it. In so doing, most developers will then nerf said content, because CONTENT FOR ALL! This is where game developers must choose. Make your game where there are standard encounters everyone gets to enjoy, and then the harder ones that require people to actually coordinate. This is what hurts no one. If you want to complain that you don't have time for a static, or you don't have time to learn the fights, then that particular part of the game is not for you.

For those that follow the main story line, the raids in no way affect your experience in the MSQ, which is a great thing. It adds one dynamic to the game that can reward players for putting more time and effort in, but doesn't detract from those that just want to experience the story. In all the way SE has it, is a healthy blend.

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Originally Posted by NovaWulfe

The only content they do not release straight to the duty finder is content that is, at the time, far too difficult for the average DF group. DF content is typically easy enough to do completely blind, as there are only a handful of make or break mechanics that can be explained in a few lines of text. Basically, DF content is standardized to require minimal coordination and communication. Stuff like savage hough? That is (hopefully) being designed to be challenging enough that you will NEED to communicate and plan with a group that works well together. If they were to put it in DF, there would be an uproar of people here complaining about how their groups all yelled at them and ragequit in DF, because most people in DF do not want to communicate or plan at all.

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How can you really say this? How do you even know that its to difficult if we aren't allowed to try it.

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

How can you really say this? How do you even know that its to difficult if we aren't allowed to try it.

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Nobody knows with absolute certainty, but I (and others) are assuming it will be this difficult based on what the developers have told us. From what they have told us, it will either be comparable to what FCOB Savage would have been, or just as hard as FCOB without echo (some uncertainty with the translations here). Assuming this is true, then yes it will be that hard.

I agree with you op they should allow us to do Alex savage in DF. I don't understand how people can say something is to difficult for someone if you aren't allowed to try it. I think before se makes the decision to exclude people by making it full party only they should let us try it first.

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

How can you really say this? How do you even know that its to difficult if we aren't allowed to try it.

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I know it from the fact most people in DF can't handle A4 mechanics.

I was able to handle those mechanics easy. If people would take the time to explain what people need to do then it wouldn't be that hard. Anyway how can you use Alex normal to determine Alex savage. They aren't the same so that's not a very good reason to me. Next.

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

I agree with you op they should allow us to do Alex savage in DF. I don't understand how people can say something is to difficult for someone if you aren't allowed to try it. I think before se makes the decision to exclude people by making it full party only they should let us try it first.

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Because people don't need to see it in that specific scenario?
We have countless of DF examples of the general mass and a lot of them either don't bother with mechanics at all or don't get it if you explain it 3 times.

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

I was able to handle those mechanics easy. If people would take the time to explain what people need to do then it wouldn't be that hard. Anyway how can you use Alex normal to determine Alex savage. They aren't the same so that's not a very good reason to me. Next.

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Because savage will be much harder than normal. Just because you cleared it doesn't mean squat. That's a small sample size. You could of been hard carried for all we know. Most dps can't handle hitting an add, dragging it to a light shining from the sky, and killing it there. I'm all for savage being in DF, so I'll have countess threads to pop into and say "Get Good".

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

This pretty much hits the nail right on the head. The casual players when faced with random players and very challenging content, will then cause an uproar that they cannot complete it. In so doing, most developers will then nerf said content, because CONTENT FOR ALL! This is where game developers must choose. Make your game where there are standard encounters everyone gets to enjoy, and then the harder ones that require people to actually coordinate. This is what hurts no one.

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But none of that has anything to do with whether it's in DF or not. No doubt at some point there will be players who do ask for nerfs, but they'd do that regardless of whether it's in DF. DF is just a way of putting groups together, just like PF is. There's no reason for one to focus on simpler content than the other.

The people queuing for difficult content should expect difficult content, and they should be prepared to need to communicate and coordinate with each other in order to complete it. DF was a lot better when the game was new and people really were talking to each other more in random DF groups because we still needed that. Hopefully, putting some harder content into DF might bring some of that back.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But none of that has anything to do with whether it's in DF or not. No doubt at some point there will be players who do ask for nerfs, but they'd do that regardless of whether it's in DF. DF is just a way of putting groups together, just like PF is. There's no reason for one to focus on simpler content than the other.

The people queuing for difficult content should expect difficult content, and they should be prepared to need to communicate and coordinate with each other in order to complete it. DF was a lot better when the game was new and people really were talking to each other more in random DF groups because we still needed that. Hopefully, putting some harder content into DF might bring some of that back.

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Just so know, but putting all the content is the exact opposite of making people talk.
Everything that evolves around getting randomly grouped is making people talk a lot less because, why should you? You get grouped automatically so so need to ever talk when looking for a group. You will never see these people again unless they happen to be on your world and even then. Hai and bai is usually the best you get.
The only thing putting harder content in DF will gain is whining, both ingame and out game.

Believe it or not, people have been trough this transition before and we know what is on the end.
Nothing but sitting in 1 place, hitting queue, popping in, aoe'ing everything, insult each other a bit for good measure, and leave again all while rolling their face over the keyboard cause stuff dies if you fart in their general direction.

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

Using it as an example of nerfs and df's.
Because if you did Steps pre-nerf, it actually required people
to assign spots. [

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I doubt you can compare Steps pre-nerf with non-DF content like Coil pre-nerf. Maybe not even with Coil post-nerf.
Step of Faith pre-nerf was more like a CT boss fight and people still wipe on zombie dragon..

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Everything that evolves around getting randomly grouped is making people talk a lot less because, why should you?

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You should if that's the only way to ever complete the content you queued for.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Nothing but sitting in 1 place, hitting queue, popping in, aoe'ing everything, insult each other a bit for good measure, and leave again all while rolling their face over the keyboard cause stuff dies if you fart in their general direction.

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That comes from being face-roll easy, not from being in DF. It's precisely why we need more hard content in DF, where people can't run it like that. (Once it's nerfed to the point of facerolling is when it should be taken out of DF and just made solo. There's no point in being in a group when you're not going to work together with them.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

You should if that's the only way to ever complete the content you queued for.
That comes from being face-roll easy, not from being in DF. It's precisely why we need more hard content in DF, where people can't run it like that. (Once it's nerfed to the point of facerolling is when it should be taken out of DF and just made solo. There's no point in being in a group when you're not going to work together with them.)

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See, the issue here is, you look at the now and not at what this starts.
Let me give you the steps this will take, taken from history so nothing invented at all.

- They will give you all content in DF on day 1
- There will be a crazy amount of whining because the content that was previously puggable, suddenly aint anymore because there will be always someone that messes up. Tried to do t5 pug when it was current content on phase 2 with fireballs? yea won't end well ever.
- Square is forced to either turn back their decision or nerf content hard and they will go for the second
- All content is now designed to be a lot easier from the get go and raiders get bored
- Square will invent a new difficulty designed for raiders (sounds familair? hai savage)
- People will whine they want all the content in DF from the start

And here it loops.
In the end we have multiple different difficulties, 1 face roll easy that most people will do, and as such the average skill will go down.
Because said content is now designed for less skilled people, less talk is involved. and we get to the point i talked about in the end.

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Originally Posted by NovaWulfe

Thing is, I actually do agree with you here OP, I was just getting the reasoning out there as to why they do not do this with the toughest content in the game.

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Another reason against it is lockouts. Coil was put in the DF to coincide with the lockouts being removed. Extremes, maybe, as they are farmable. Raids? Newp.

Because forming a static and/or playing with friends is too hard.

I agree with the OP.

I kinda wish they would add EX primals to DF, because when I decide I want to do them (like a week after they are released) PF is full of "XX EX kill, no noobs, bonus = kick"
With DF I can try the trial, learn the strat and then join a kill group.

I HATE studying for a boss by watching videos, so I'd rather go into DF and see what he does and learn, and then i can join those PF groups that wants you to know strat

They can't put Alexander (Savage) straight in the Duty Finder based on how the loot system is done. It has a weekly lockout where you can only get a drop + token once a week; you can still enter after you've cleared as long as you have people that haven't cleared with you, but it impacts the amount of loot that drops at the end. So, walk with me for a moment here. Imagine, if you will, a perfect world where a Duty Finder group is actually able to complete a Floor of Alexander (Savage) upon release (I know it's a stretch since Duty Finder can't even complete hard mode primals some days, but that's why I said 'imagine'). So, you go in there, the stars align, miracles happen, and you walk away with a Duty Finder clear. The only problem is... five of the people in the party have a previous clear so there are no loot chests. The three people that hadn't already cleared get a token but are completely screwed out of even the possibility of a drop until after reset because of the magical randomness of Duty Finder. Better luck next time!

Now that we're done with that particular flight of fancy, let's be honest for a moment here. It's realism time. Even assuming that Alexander (Savage) is no more difficult than FCoB was, you'd still be better off beating your face against a brick wall than queueing for it in Duty Finder with the intent of actually clearing it. Based on clear percentages for previous raids, 90% or more of the playerbase will never clear the entirety of Alexander (Savage). It's aimed at a niche audience. Seriously, people complained that Coil was too hard and asked for a story mode cause lore (admittedly, it was great lore). SE listened and gave us a story mode for Alexander, and the complaints about Savage have already begun. I'm just waiting for the slew of "nerf plz" threads starting Tuesday morning. :/

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I kinda wish they would add EX primals to DF, because when I decide I want to do them (like a week after they are released) PF is full of "XX EX kill, no noobs, bonus = kick"
With DF I can try the trial, learn the strat and then join a kill group.

I HATE studying for a boss by watching videos, so I'd rather go into DF and see what he does and learn, and then i can join those PF groups that wants you to know strat

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Or you could just make a learning party of your own and find others that want to learn it too.

While I'd personally love it if they put stuff in the DF right away and left it untouched, I know full well there would be tons of people complaining about the difficulty of said content as soon as they do it.

Once people start complaining about difficulty it's only a matter of time until the nerf hammer drops and a lot of people, myself included, absolutely hate it when they nerf content. If they would leave content alone and ignore the people complaining about difficulty I'd be a lot more supportive of this thread, but I don't think they will based on past experiences.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Or you could just make a learning party of your own and find others that want to learn it too.

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Duty finder is usually a lot faster than making a PF and when you dont have much playtime you want to go the faster route.
I've tried making learning parties but it usually takes too long so people leave and nothing happens

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

They can't put Alexander (Savage) straight in the Duty Finder based on how the loot system is done. It has a weekly lockout where you can only get a drop + token once a week; you can still enter after you've cleared as long as you have people that haven't cleared with you, but it impacts the amount of loot that drops at the end. So, walk with me for a moment here. Imagine, if you will, a perfect world where a Duty Finder group is actually able to complete a Floor of Alexander (Savage) upon release (I know it's a stretch since Duty Finder can't even complete hard mode primals some days, but that's why I said 'imagine'). So, you go in there, the stars align, miracles happen, and you walk away with a Duty Finder clear. The only problem is... five of the people in the party have a previous clear so there are no loot chests. The three people that hadn't already cleared get a token but are completely screwed out of even the possibility of a drop until after reset because of the magical randomness of Duty Finder. Better luck next time!

Now that we're done with that particular flight of fancy, let's be honest for a moment here. It's realism time. Even assuming that Alexander (Savage) is no more difficult than FCoB was, you'd still be better off beating your face against a brick wall than queueing for it in Duty Finder with the intent of actually clearing it. Based on clear percentages for previous raids, 90% or more of the playerbase will never clear the entirety of Alexander (Savage). It's aimed at a niche audience. Seriously, people complained that Coil was too hard and asked for a story mode cause lore (admittedly, it was great lore). SE listened and gave us a story mode for Alexander, and the complaints about Savage have already begun. I'm just waiting for the slew of "nerf plz" threads starting Tuesday morning. :/

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Why wouldn't there be a loot chest? :o WoD has weekly lockout on loot and even if you do it when you got your loot there is a loot chest

Well to be honest Bismarck ex is easy and only available to pre mades and also have restrictions on experience and yet cannot clear them and same can be said for duty finder and I have yet to clear because I am on an lev and its hard to figure nd an static That will let me in since I can only raid on weekends I work m-f 9pm- 6 am and available Sat late afternoon onwards and Sunday as well

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Duty finder is usually a lot faster than making a PF and when you dont have much playtime you want to go the faster route.
I've tried making learning parties but it usually takes too long so people leave and nothing happens

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Maybe it's a server thing? Learning parties for pertinent content typically fill up quickly on my server. Like, usually in under 15 minutes. I'd sooner spend 15 minutes waiting for people that are all on the same page than I would facedesking because of that guy in Duty Finder. You know the one. The one that's there to troll. Or the one that's there to learn, but can't seem to grasp the mechanics no matter how many different ways they're explained. Or the one that argues about the strat... yeah you get the picture. DF provides a layer of anonymity that turns people evil. I've gotten far more done in Party Finder than I ever have in Duty Finder. Alexander (Normal) is an exception. My static's been queueing 6/8 and 7/8 and having some pretty good luck farming it that way, but it only works because the content is complete and utter faceroll. Savage (hopefully) isn't going to be faceroll by any definition of the word.

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Why wouldn't there be a loot chest? :o WoD has weekly lockout on loot and even if you do it when you got your loot there is a loot chest

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You haven't read the loot rules for Alexander (Savage), have you?

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- Rewards
Treasure coffers that appear upon completing areas in Alexander: Gordias (Savage) will yield gear. In addition, players will receive a page of the Gordian Manifesto from each area, which can be exchanged for gear of your choosing.
* Players will only receive one page of the Gordian Manifesto per area each week upon completing said area for the first time.

If your party contains players replaying an area prior to the weekly reset, the number of treasure coffers appearing upon completion will decrease.*
Furthermore, players will be ineligible for rewards from treasure coffers as well as pages of the Gordian Manifesto when replaying an area prior to the weekly reset.

* If there are one to four players in your party replaying a turn, only a single treasure coffer will appear.
If there are five to seven players in your party replaying a turn, no treasure coffers will appear.
Players in the party who have yet to complete a given area in Alexander: Gordias (Savage) prior to the weekly reset will receive a page of the Gordian Manifesto.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I've tried making learning parties but it usually takes too long so people leave and nothing happens.

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Were you actively searching for members? Just putting yourself on the Party Finder and hoping for 7 other people to magically appear is kinda expecting too much. Ask around like the good ol' days of party advertising. :u

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Why wouldn't there be a loot chest? :o WoD has weekly lockout on loot and even if you do it when you got your loot there is a loot chest

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The lockout will only give you one chance at loot. Regardless if you receive any loot or not from any of the floors, no loot for you for the rest of the week from the floors you have completed. It's the same as the previous weekly coil lockouts.

Lol complaining about stuff not being in df but proves in this very thread that he\she fails at comprehension let alone execution.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

blip

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No I missed that, thanks for the info!

And yes my server isn't very high populated so thats a big issue. It's good for housing but bad for finding pf groups

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Were you actively searching for members? Just putting yourself on the Party Finder and hoping for 7 other people to magically appear is kinda expecting too much. Ask around like the good ol' days of party advertising. :u

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I have a linkshell with people who usually do the latest raiding and they will gladly help me through the ex primals. But I feel like a burden joining them when I haven't seen the fight. They know i dont like watching videos so they let me join anyway.
So with DF i would at least have seen some parts of the fights

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I HATE studying for a boss by watching videos, so I'd rather go into DF and see what he does and learn, and then i can join those PF groups that wants you to know strat

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I hear you. I never do that. To each their own, but I'll never understand it. It's like having to know the whole plot before you're allowed to watch a movie..
Where is people's pride or whatever in figuring out something on their own? I actually like that, but again, to each their own. Putting stuff in DF from the very beginning doesn't hurt anybody.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

-snip-

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The thing is, there are seven other people in there with you. It's more than a little self-centered to go in there and expect them to tolerate multiple wipes while you figure out the mechanics-- your attitude is essentially that your time is somehow more important than theirs.

It's a matter of general courtesy to the rest of the group.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I have a linkshell with people who usually do the latest raiding and they will gladly help me through the ex primals. But I feel like a burden joining them when I haven't seen the fight. They know i dont like watching videos so they let me join anyway.
So with DF i would at least have seen some parts of the fights

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Sounds like you're worried about inconveniencing other players. Don't worry, I'm sure your LS mates meant well. Despite the fact that they know you prefer to go in blind (which is perfectly fine) and yet they still offer to help means that they're quite nice people. Don't turn down or feel bad about offers to help. People do it because they want to. :O

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Learning parties for pertinent content typically fill up quickly on my server. Like, usually in under 15 minutes. I'd sooner spend 15 minutes waiting for people that are all on the same page than I would facedesking because of that guy in Duty Finder. You know the one.

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So are you claiming that your server is just better than any other? A random group is a random group. You're just as likely to get "that guy" joining you through PF as through DF, unless you think all such people must be joining from different servers. The people who wouldn't join a PF party for savage mode wouldn't queue for it in DF either.

Of course, DF parties should always be assumed to be learning parties, since that's nearly always what it will be for at least some of the people there, but learning parties are a valid way of running content. Why should they be excluded from drawing from a larger playerbase?

The purpose on not having these things in DF is to facilitate more social interaction on servers between players. I would honestly be surprised if Alex savage even gets put in DF or gets nerfed. It's extremely difficult content for a niche in the player base.