Please add STR to Fending accessories

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

uhh, what? I have no idea how it would be OP.

Tanks can already get crafted stuff that's 30/30. It's not even raid gear (it's i150), doesn't require rare mats and isn't even that hard to craft. For anyone who has access to this type of gear, they love it because they hit hard and they're durable. It's great fun and nobody loses because they can do it. The only thing that sucks is you have to go through the awful materia system to get there. But after you're done, it's pretty cool.

The imbalance is that raid gear, the stuff that's supposed to be BiS doesn't have any STR on it at all.

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Then we would have every other class asking or VIT on their accessories. So in reality, it is fine the way it is, get to the minimum HP threshold and then stack STR.

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Originally Posted by Alexika

Then we would have every other class asking or VIT on their accessories.

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You seriously think every other class is going to riot because their tanks can do more damage and hold threat better? I mean, I know the community can be a little petty sometimes but this would be over the top.

Was every other class complaining when they gave healers +accuracy on their gear for free?

i just go 3 slaying and 2 fending pieces
works fine so far

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

You seriously think every other class is going to riot because their tanks can do more damage and hold threat better? I mean, I know the community can be a little petty sometimes but this would be over the top.

Was every other class complaining when they gave healers +accuracy on their gear for free?

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Yes, yes I do. When FCoB came out other jobs were having to wear crafted so they could add VIT to it. Healers trying to get to 6K+ or more. Probably going to see a repeat of that, why would they not want a free option rather than spend the gil?

But please, drop the hold threat aspect of this. A VIT tank is not going to struggle with threat unless he is with a very aggressive playing OT, such as in my old static, where I could rip hate off him without Defiance doing just SE and SP combos. Otherwise, no one was even close.

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Originally Posted by Alexika

Yes, yes I do. When FCoB came out other jobs were having to wear crafted so they could add VIT to it. Healers trying to get to 6K+ or more. Probably going to see a repeat of that, why would they not want a free option rather than spend the gil?

But please, drop the hold threat aspect of this. A VIT tank is not going to struggle with threat unless he is with a very aggressive playing OT, such as in my old static, where I could rip hate off him without Defiance doing just SE and SP combos. Otherwise, no one was even close.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Having more threat on a DRK or WAR means you have to do your Powerslash/Butcher's block combo less often. For DRK this means you get more MP back and maybe restore more HP via souleater. For WAR this means greater up time on your 2 debuffs.

I'm guessing PLD now has more options for extra DPS if they can drop the halone combo. Of course whether or not that's advisable depends entirely on if you need that halone debuff or not.

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/10charzandstuff

Tanks are not there to simply mitigate damage. A (not insignificant) part of FFXIV tank role design is to DPS. If it wasn't they wouldn't get DPS stances, DPS CDs, DoTs, high potency DPS rotations, etc.

If tanks one day decided not to dps, you would have a harder time meeting dps checks in progression content without overgearing. Tank DPS is factored into the minimum DPS requirements.

Tanks also received even more dps capability in Heavensward. Anyone saying tanks aren't also supposed to focus on DPS do not seem to be line with the design philosophy of this team.

STR tanks aren't "squishier". If a STR spec and VIT spec both take 3k damage, they both require 3k healing from the healer. You might get a few hundred more hp out of a stoneskin, but for the most part, identical healing is required.

However a STR Warrior will self heal significantly more with Equilibrium, Inner Beast, Storm's Path, Blood bath, etc. Which, in actual fact, means they will mathematically require LESS healing from you. Not to mention the faster kill speed, lowering overal raid healing requirements, increased enmity generation.

The only time high hp is of benefit is when you heave to deal with phases of very high damage taken in a very short period of time to a point that you would not surive safely otherwise. Any other time you are intentionally nerfing yourself with VIT acesories. I have not experienced any of these in current content that required a set of VIT accesories.

That STR tank is just trying to do his part to make life easier for you. You're welcome ;)

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

/10charzandstuff

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My Dark barely uses his enmity combo and he tanks without Grit up. Butchers is the highest potency combo, so you have nothing there. And you completely failed to address what I said, VIT tanks will have zero issue with threat anyway, the only time any tank has issue with threat is at the very opening of the fight, and STR won't give you that much more of a lead.

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Originally Posted by Alexika

My Dark barely uses his enmity combo and he tanks without Grit up. Butchers is the highest potency combo, so you have nothing there. And you completely failed to address what I said, VIT tanks will have zero issue with threat anyway, the only time any tank has issue with threat is at the very opening of the fight, and STR won't give you that much more of a lead.

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If you can hold threat by rarely using the enmity combo and not using Grit then it just sounds like your DPS aren't very good.

If you're doing butchers you need to drop SE or SP or you'd need to drop both for a few seconds each rotation. If you skip butchers, you can have SP & SE active all the time. It's a nice option to have.

STR has a very noticeable effect on damage. It will also boost threat by the same amount.

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Originally Posted by Destomius

Why are we using Alex (normal) as an example? That kind of content is so easy you can probably clear with 2 DRKs, 2 Astros, and 4 Bards.

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Unless Alex Savage doesn't ever need two tanks each tanking a different target, you can't really always rely on having the buffs for PLD to perform well.

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Originally Posted by Danko

Tanks are not there to simply mitigate damage. A (not insignificant) part of FFXIV tank role design is to DPS. If it wasn't they wouldn't get DPS stances, DPS CDs, DoTs, high potency DPS rotations, etc.

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Not arguing that tanks shouldn't do dps. But if you consider how the PLD stance spends GCD and MP, you realize that it wasn't designed to do stance dances. Yes, we switch into Sword Oath when we're not tanking, but the discussion was never about that situation.

A tank's main job is still to mitigate enough of the damage to make the party successful. And that means when we give up part of that mitigation (for example by tanking the boss in Sword Oath as mentioned previously), we need to evaluate not just our own dps gain, but the dps losses suffered by healers who now have to heal extra 20% of damage.

VIT lets the healers heal less, which means more dps from the healers. The question is, when the tank is doing 200 dps more, how much does healer dps drop. And by wearing STR accessories, even if the WAR gets 200 dps boost, the PLD doesn't necessarily get the same boost. That is what we must look at.

I think all Accessories should have 40 main stat, 20 vitality. However, the tank pieces should be 40 vitality, 20 strength.


So, tank jewelry:

40 Vitality
20 Strength
20 Determination or Parry

dps jewelry:
40 Strength
20 Vitality
20 Critical or Determination

Stance dancing was not the main focus of that point. It cannot be argued that tanks come equipped with many DPS tools while main tanking, even when DPS stances are not considered.

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VIT lets the healers heal less

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VIT does not let healers heal less. In many cases it makes them heal more. VIT drags out fights. VIT causes self heals to be less effective. VIT increases risks of PUG scramble situations with openers from fluctuating burst enmity at the beginning of fights at varying gear levels.

VIT is only helpful for fights that have very high bursts of damage in very short windows of time or really uncertain/severely undergeeared progression territory. I have not yet encountered one in Heavensward that needed a VIT set.

I gotta say, I've had this idea on my mind too - namely, that Tanks should recieve both VIT and STR on their gear, but a lesser amount of STR than their VIT counterpart.


In this way, you would create a dynamic where a DPS wouldn't take the Tank accessories by virtue of the fact that it wouldn't be as effective as stacking their right-side with STR accessories. I was honestly REALLY HOPEFUL SE would notice this issue and change it because I find it absolutely rediculous that tanks, if they want to be the best, will be required to drop millions in gil every couple of content patches just to keep up.

If SE Wants to move away from crafting being BiS, they need to remove the accessories so easily outclassing their raid gear.

I don't think it's too rediculous to say have it be VIT stat at current levels, and give it a STR stat at the level of 20 item levels previous (Basically, have the STR equal to what you could get off of a crafted accessory.) This would keep it so that STR gear is still easily stronger, and if you can afford to do it? Do it.

Anytime you have overheal, VIT would have turned that overheal into HP. Meaning after the next hit, you are left with more HP, meaning the healer needs to heal you less. Unless your healers never ever have any overheal. VIT also makes self-heals more effective through the same mechanism.

Going from VIT to STR has a double sided effect. Your HP decreases, causing more heals and self-heals to end up as overheals, but your self-heals are more potent. Conversely, going from STR to VIT makes your self-heals weaker, but more of that self-heal are useful (not wasted). If most of your self-heals are overheals, then you are deriving zero benefit from the extra self-heals. If most of the heals that land on you are not overheals, then you are deriving zero benefit from the extra "pre-charged HP".

One can also argue that with less STR, it increases the risks of PUG healers doing knee-jerk reactions healing you more and wasting healing cooldowns, by healing you more intently, most of your self-heals are wasted (end up as overheal).

I think the lesson is that VIT and STR, by nature of being a trade-off, have their benefits and faults tied together as a set. Stacking STR isn't all absolute benefits.

And the argument that "you don't need those VIT benefits unless you're bad" is equally applicable to all STR benefits.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

If SE Wants to move away from crafting being BiS, they need to remove the accessories so easily outclassing their raid gear.

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I'm not sure they even know where they want the crafted gear. Unless the whole idea of "overmelded 150 is better than any 190" itself is born out of wrong assumptions/calculations about the stat values and SE is secretly chuckling at all the mistakes people are making.

Or, more likely, 3.0 gear itemization is balanced with the Esoterics gear in consideration. We're only seeing the value of the 150 melds because we don't see the Esoterics gear. Once that and AlexS gear is out, they most likely will outperform the 150 melds by so much that a mix of VIT and STR accessories from Esoterics is better than a full set of 150 melds in every way.

Or...there may be like 170 accessories that when overmelded give us the same situation again.

Back on a more fundamental level, healers don't have to exchange healing potency for dps. I wonder why tanks have to exchange survival stats for dps. Tank attack potency, self-heals, damage shields, parry mitigation etc should all scale off VIT. The real stat game should be with secondary stats, not with primary stats.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i just go 3 slaying and 2 fending pieces
works fine so far

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I actually quite like this loadout, and sport it for most PUGs. Keeps the damage numbers and self heals nice and high, but still gives you decently large HP buffer in case stuff goes wrong or I don't trust my healers.

Why not just have the Primary stat + Vit on all accessories? Keep the secondaries as they are since they're balancing encounters after tanks going full strength anyway....

I've had Melded Crafted Accessories since T5 was a thing. Back then I still held on to my VIT accessories as they'd be useful from time to time.

But now? No point. I don't ever upgrade anything on the right. I craft/buy/meld the newest set of Melded crafted accessories and call it a day. And you know what? It's kind of boring. I get excited whenever they add new crafting recipes and accessories are there because it means I finally get to upgrade my pieces, because there is no point in buying any of the Fending or Slaying accessories once you have your Melds unless you are just looking into spending excess tomes. I didn't bought a single Fending anything for FCoB - My i90 melds where better, and then my i110 completly blew them out of the water.

Right now in 3.0, I had a full set of i150 Pentamelds 2 hours after hitting 60, to replace my i110 Pentamelds that where still better than mix-matching i170/i180 tome accessories. Yes, i110 Melds where stronger than a mix-matched i170 set, it's that bad.

And now unless they add another set of crafted accessories, this i150 set will probably last until the next iLvl jump.

So, yeah. I say this as a GSM, they really need to start adding STR to tank accs. I love making money out of GSM but right now the situation is completly silly, there is absolutely no point in getting Tank accesories with Crafted melds around, even with a 50+ iLvl gap

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Originally Posted by Danko

VIT is only helpful for fights that have very high bursts of damage in very short windows of time or really uncertain/severely undergeeared progression territory. I have not yet encountered one in Heavensward that needed a VIT set.
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Tanks might like to think so, but they arent the only ones taking damage in a fight. More health on tanks means healers have more time to heal others.

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Originally Posted by Danko

That STR tank is just trying to do his part to make life easier for you. You're welcome ;)

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If tanks will get both STR and VIT on their accessory - what will be the point of getting DPS into when you can have WAR with 20+k hp that do just slightly less damage than typical DPS?
Now tanks forced to choose - whether they are almost as squishy as any other melee dps with almost the same dps, or they tank with tank hp and low dps.

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Originally Posted by Danko

VIT does not let healers heal less. In many cases it makes them heal more. VIT drags out fights. VIT causes self heals to be less effective. VIT increases risks of PUG scramble situations with openers from fluctuating burst enmity at the beginning of fights at varying gear levels.

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VIT allows healers to heal in more relaxed way because "time to die" increases.
The typical example is speedruns. It was kinda hard to do a full pack pull with 5k tank because he simply could be oneshotted if things went the worng way. 13k hp tank is a whole another story.
And healers can burst heal too, the more hp you have, the higher efficiency will be in burst healing. Classical example is a Benediction and it heals more when you have more hp.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Anytime you have overheal, VIT would have turned that overheal into HP. Meaning after the next hit, you are left with more HP, meaning the healer needs to heal you less. Unless your healers never ever have any overheal. VIT also makes self-heals more effective through the same mechanism.

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But you could also say that having more VIT means you require an extra heal to take you to full which could lead to even more over heal.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

I actually quite like this loadout, and sport it for most PUGs. Keeps the damage numbers and self heals nice and high, but still gives you decently large HP buffer in case stuff goes wrong or I don't trust my healers.

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I go 3 2, the 2 being the 190 and 180 striking rings.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

But you could also say that having more VIT means you require an extra heal to take you to full which could lead to even more over heal.

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Which means there should be some communication. If the healer is able to keep up a tank with full STR accessories, then the healer doesn't need to always heal a VIT tank to full. Take the tank over 80% and let Regen or the tank's self-heal do the rest.

People talk about healers using pre-casts and stuff, saying a good healer has no problem healing full STR acc. tank, why does that healer all of the sudden feel the compulsion to heal extra and play less efficiently? It sounds a lot like a double standard. VIT tanks will always play with a bad healer. STR tanks will always play with a good healer. Hence VIT makes the raid fail?

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Crafting gear is replaced or becomes irrelevant too quickly to justify - cost effective crafted gear is not realistic when players prioritize large profit margins.

Personally I gather both a Slaying & Fending set of raid accessories and swap between sets depending on HP requirements & healer ability.

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This! Crafters just want to bleed the PvE Players dry. As long there is no real reasonable Market i will never support any Crafter. I rather jump in the Grind Mill and do it the other Way.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

You seriously think every other class is going to riot because their tanks can do more damage and hold threat better? I mean, I know the community can be a little petty sometimes but this would be over the top.

Was every other class complaining when they gave healers +accuracy on their gear for free?

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Never underestimate how self centered a lot of people can be.

We already have people crying about how much dps a war can do and some even calling for a nerf.

People want feel like they have a bigger e-peen which is why you are even having this discussion to begin with.

In the end people want to say "oh I do it for the group" but realistically they do it so they can make the e-peen grow.

Everyone watching the dps seeing who can do the most and talking smack about it in raid chat. It's quite comical tbh.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

In this way, you would create a dynamic where a DPS wouldn't take the Tank accessories by virtue of the fact that it wouldn't be as effective as stacking their right-side with STR accessories.

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Or you could just assign the accessories to the class they are suppose to be for and not neutral. All of the main gear is directly assigned so the accessories should follow the same.

It's cute seeing people who don't tank and don't know the difference between mitigation and hp threshold tell others how to do it 'right.'

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Crafted gear is already nearly useless, and now you want to take away one of the last good pieces that come from crafters? Fending accessories are fine as is

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So why isn't the same for non tanks? I don't see any other classes that prefer crafted accs over their end game accs.

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Originally Posted by Airget

As for suggestion to make the acc a 40 VIT, 20 STR would be OP because every ACC is +40 to x stat, what would balance it is making it 20/20 split but even then maybe SE could consider the idea of offering two accessory types for tanks, one which focus on full VIT and another that offers a 20/20 tradeoff that's meant for offtanks.

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A full set of melded i150 HQ accessories currently gives 145 VIT and 155 STR (all else aside, that's the problem that needs to be fixed). Mixing i190 VIT and STR gets you either 120/80 or 80/120, and a set of 20/20 mixed accessories would split the difference at 100/100. In all cases you're still falling far behind the accessories that are 40 ilvl lower.

A 40/20 set would get you to 200/100, which might actually be worth consideration.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Or, more likely, 3.0 gear itemization is balanced with the Esoterics gear in consideration. We're only seeing the value of the 150 melds because we don't see the Esoterics gear. Once that and AlexS gear is out, they most likely will outperform the 150 melds by so much that a mix of VIT and STR accessories from Esoterics is better than a full set of 150 melds in every way.

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In order for a mixed set of Esoterics/Savage accessories to be superior to i150 HQ melded, we'd probably need them to have +60 VIT/STR (which would get to 180 VIT/120 STR or visa versa), a 50% increase over i190. I know SE have said they wanted Savage to be a bigger jump, but I don't see it being quite that big.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

You say that but the tanks that stack strength instead of vitality say otherwise.

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Yeah, but as I said, they do this so they can do more DPS and power through things which isn't necessary. Even if they added strength I'm pretty sure some tanks would still trade their gear for a full strength set. Just seems silly to me :p if they want to do damage take up a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Adding STR to accesories, as crafted, or using striking accs, increases damage thus increases enmity.

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As true as that may be, I've never met a tank who needed strength to hold aggro. If they absolutely needed it then they must be a terrible tank.

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Originally Posted by Hypie

This! Crafters just want to bleed the PvE Players dry. As long there is no real reasonable Market i will never support any Crafter. I rather jump in the Grind Mill and do it the other Way.

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I think one problem with 2.x crafting of end-game viable gear was that you needed to be an end-game crafter to do it. That throws off a lot of players. It's like only people who cleared the latest Coils were allowed to do the Expert Roulette. The supply never gains quantity and the market became an oligopoly.

However in 3.0 we have the script gear for crafters, equivalent to the tomestone gear for battle jobs. People won't be getting full sets so soon, but the fact that they don't have to spend millions on melding means a lot more people will collect these and become viable end-game crafters a few weeks into each new patch. That should bring down prices on crafted gear a lot.

NO.... Tank jewelry should add more Magical Defense, that would be better

I think that all healer gear should give +INT, so we don't have to use cleric stance any more. Also, if we could add in +DEX to all the items that could help a little. While we're at it, all healer gear should give +STR too for the auto attacks.

After reading this thread I am surprised to see how many players don't understand eHP and effective healing...

The only problem is that tanks are the only job expected to frequently use gear they can't even need on.

Good raid quality tanks are expected to have full vit, full str, and full hybrid accs. No other job is in this pposition. Tanks have to spend millions on crafted and melds and find a way to aquire str accs they can't need on. No other job has to do that to be oopimal excepting rare situations like savage coil at i110 where everyone needed hybrid for the hp.

I don't give a crap if multiple sets and hybrids are needed to be optimal. I played ffxi for a decade im more than ok with situational gearing. But 8ts a tank exclusive issue and THAT is the problem. Everyone should or noone should. Tanks should n9t be required t9 shell oyt millions for hybrids, spend extra weeks of weekly tomes for slaying, and spam content exponentially more to try to aqhire gesr they cant even need on while every single other job is just 1 set and done.

Either everyone should be expected to put in that kind of effort or no one should. Tanks shouldn't be the only pinatas crafters beat for gil, nor should tanks have to grind out accs an greed status, or be pigeonholed into having a str melee as their secondary class just to gear their tank.

make everyone deal with this crap, or give tanks a way to not deal with it. If SE really didn't want tanks to dps, they'd separate the accs like leftside gear for jobs.

And if you don't think tanks are expected to do this you aren't in a serious raid environment, or are just bad at tanking. The benefits are huge. No other job benefits from multiple stats to the degree tanks do, which is the problem. Give other jobs a reason to do what tanks do, or make tanks not need to.

@Izsha, I agree. I would love it if everyone had choices involved with their builds. Unfortunately, there is just a one-size fits all mentality. I hate the idea of passing that on to tanks, who right now are the only job who gets to take part in such a luxury.

As for the idea of 'being fair' tanks get many other perks that other jobs do not get. i.e. Often get bonuses for being adventurer in need, instant queues etc It is also the easiest for a tank to obtain full credit solo on an A rank hunt

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I think that all healer gear should give +INT, so we don't have to use cleric stance any more. Also, if we could add in +DEX to all the items that could help a little. While we're at it, all healer gear should give +STR too for the auto attacks.

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How many healers do you know that go out of their way to get melded jewelry with INT, STR or DEX?

On the other hand, there is a good case for giving healers accuracy on their gear "for free". That way they can actually hit stuff when they switch to cleric stance without having to sacrifice their healing stats. They did this for FCoB, and I'm in favor of them continuing this trend.

It's preference, content does not require a tank to have STR accessories. If your tank needs STR accessories, your damage dealers need better gear. I have a full set of both VIT and STR anyways for the hell of it, but I've never went into something and thought to myself.

"That other tank is balls because he doesn't have STR accessories, and we're going to wipe because of it."

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

How many healers do you know that go out of their way to get melded jewelry with INT, STR or DEX?

On the other hand, there is a good case for giving healers accuracy on their gear "for free". That way they can actually hit stuff when they switch to cleric stance without having to sacrifice their healing stats. They did this for FCoB, and I'm in favor of them continuing this trend.

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lol it was obviously a joke.

In seriousness though, I do not think that strength should be added to vit accessories for 2 primary reasons, 1) it should be a trade-off OR tank DPS would be nerfed to compensate, which no one wants and 2) all melee dps would just wear fending vit+str accessories, as all the 2ndary stats are less useful than before

I do like the idea of trade-offs and wished that all jobs were given various builds such as this.

I was going to write a long post expressing my opinion, and then realized nobody would care unless it was somehow related.

It wasn't, I think this argument is nonsensical.


Wear what you want and tank how you want, the party will kick you or keep you depending on how valuable you are... And I'm very sure the least of your worries will be stats in that regard.

Yeah. The extra vit or str doesn't really matter, just know how to hold aggro, mitigate and all the other remarkable tank stuffs. Because let's be honest, nobody cares how you managed to stay alive so long as you actually stay alive. Or am I mistaken?

Reminds me of the Paladin that wanted to do everything in 3rd floor today, and the Bard that knew everything and died to everything... I'm telling you, a good attitude goes a whole better way than good stats.
That "it's always someone else's fault, it's never my fault" attitude. Except here it seems to be "my stat allocation is good, everything else is bad".

Both work, just be an adult about it and move on. Believe me that most people actively playing don't give a flying gobbue about what stats are more or less valuable.

Both work. Both work.

Both work.


Both of them.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I was going to write a long post expressing my opinion, and then realized nobody would care unless it was somehow related.

It wasn't, I think this argument is nonsensical.

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Okay that just makes me wanna see it more.

It's just simple fairness. Tanks are the only jobs that actually benefit greatly from more than 1 stat and thus the only job where there is more to consider on gear than meeting the acc check.

Some people like that aspect because it makes gearing more interesting than the binary gear choices every other job has: "is this gear the highest ilvl gear I can get with enough acc for content?" If yes, equip. If no, unequip.

But regardless, gearing as tank (for high end content) takes significantly more time and resources than all other jobs. That's plainly not fair.

●Give other jobs a reason to care about additional stats
or
●remove the reasons tanks benefit from extra stats
or
● give tanks the stats they benefit from in fending gear.

Tanks shouldn't be single handedly funding the goldsmith and materia markets on their own.

Just make it equal for everyone one way or another