Proposed changes to Tank jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sentenza

Point taken, I'd like to add that PLD would be the better OT in that fight since they have the actual procs for the adds and sheltron actually works on it.

---

This is 100% accurate. With my dark knight he mts P1 and P2, then in P3 i end up taking the first lazer, he takes the second, I hallowed the third. lets us pop all our reducing cds to make the healing a joke for our normal group(healers can go on pure offense) or with pug healers (can never trust pugs!).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

Snip

---

If it does interupt (and I could be wrong) id rather it not--unless I hit it at the last second. AOEs on the ground are dummy proof to avoid, and the monster is not auto attacking during that time. Sure people have to move two steps, but it also means you can give your healer a chance to dps. All three healers (esp whms lately) can put up some really good numbers in party runs without endangering the tanks health at all---

Take less damage
Party deals more damage (after a brief reposition)?


oGCD alone would be fine--with some balance number changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R-Kine

PLD and DRK could totally use a Buff.

---

Sure, let's buff PLD DPS to match that of WAR. Hmm, while at it, let's slap a shield on WAR and DRK so they have the same mitigation of PLD. Let's remove pesky wrath and MP management resources and just give immunity CDs to WAR and DRK. I mean EVERYONE wants what the other one has, why not make all three the same? Problem solved!

Too many stupid people making too many stupid change ideas without actually thinking of ALL the repercussions of the changes.

No, paladins dont need any more damage--I realize your being sarcastic, but addresing other paladins.

Paladins -do- need a threat increased. Against competitive dps without a ninja, you will be spamming your halone combo, where neither other tank has this issue. I tank with my war and paladin both through rav ex and alexander, and the threat issue on paladin is quite real. I also at times have an issue with SE saying paladin dps should be lower cause they mitigate better---given so much of the content -is- magic damage, basically means when its magic most of those advantages go out the window, while you are left with your rather sub standard aggro and damage.


Paladins are not in a good spot in the xpac. Clemency is an ok spell--you can use it with some foresight, but I think Equilibrium is much better (Rav Ex interrupts like crazy, which I imagine will be more indicative of savage alex vs normal alex which is a joke).

Paladins need a threat increase, some aoe increase (the idea that shield swipe be OGCD and a cone was quite great! 120/150 potency, remove pacification, keep added threat--done deal). Clemency in particular is already gated by the immense mana cost, the rather massive casting time and fact you cant block during the cast makes it rather fringe. Lowering the casting time to 1.5 or a gcd ability (similar to an attack, stance change, etc) would make it more ideal. Casting while tanking doesnt work well. Casting while off tanking is so so.

Here's my wishlist for my two mains (PLD/WAR):

PLD:
- Remove Sword/Shield Oath from GCD. This is long overdue
- Reduce Clemency's cast time to about 2.5 seconds or less
- Remove TP cost on Shield Swipe, making it a better TP recovery tool

WAR:
- Steel Cyclone now applies Storm's Path debuff on all targets hit
- Decimate now applies Storm's Eye debuff on all targets hit.

I think my Fell cleaves should be 9000 potency, off the gcd, require no stacks , give me 20% damage mitigation for 60 seconds and heal me for 100% of the damage done, also usable in Defiance while ignoring the damage penalty. Actually cooldown should be 0 anyways, 2.5 and off the gcd would still be too long.

To be frank I think my Salted Earths should cover the entire dungeon map and maybe tick for 9000 potency and last 60s instead of 21.
Should probably be able to affect all my allies too (obviously not me) because I don't want to carry these scrubs either.

Finally I think Hallowed Grounds duration should be 20 minutes long, and the cooldowns too long, I think 1s cooldown is fair though if we're not being conservative it should probably be like 0.5s cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hundred

I think my Fell cleaves should be 9000 potency, off the gcd, require no stacks , give me 20% damage mitigation for 60 seconds and heal me for 100% of the damage done, also usable in Defiance while ignoring the damage penalty. Actually cooldown should be 0 anyways, 2.5 and off the gcd would still be too long.

To be frank I think my Salted Earths should cover the entire dungeon map and maybe tick for 9000 potency and last 60s instead of 21.
Should probably be able to affect all my allies too (obviously not me) because I don't want to carry these scrubs either.

Finally I think Hallowed Grounds duration should be 20 minutes long, and the cooldowns too long, I think 1s cooldown is fair though if we're not being conservative it should probably be like 0.5s cooldown.

---

"Madness, as you know, is a lot like gravity. All it takes is a little push."

http://receivetipstricks.com/wp-cont...joker-clap.gif

http://www.thetimesinplainenglish.co...Saltshaker.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Sure, let's buff PLD DPS to match that of WAR. Hmm, while at it, let's slap a shield on WAR and DRK so they have the same mitigation of PLD. Let's remove pesky wrath and MP management resources and just give immunity CDs to WAR and DRK. I mean EVERYONE wants what the other one has, why not make all three the same? Problem solved!

---

Don't take it too hard now. :)

Why does Defiance even have a damage penalty, monks Fist of the earth doesn't have a damage penalty.
Square please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

Too many stupid people making too many stupid change ideas without actually thinking of ALL the repercussions of the changes.

---

If you are so very smart that you can call all other stupid, then I am sure you can offer a cogent explanation of why the changes you refer to are no good. Of course, if you were really so very smart, you'd have done that instead of simply insulting everyone. On the other hand, you might be having a bad day, in which case, you could always post that well thought out reply now. :)

Yoshida, you mention that warriors have this debuff called Storm's eye that can lower the slashing resistance of the target so that's the reason why warrior has a high dps. Your answer made me laugh out loud and let me tell you why. Ninja's have the same slashing debuff (never played Ninja before Yoshida? git gud!). Second, what is this no TP cost for Fell Cleave with a potency of 500 - how can a tank class be equal to a DPS class? it doesn't make sense at all. Balance the DPS of a Warrior, or increase the DPS of a Dark Knight.

Hai.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

The Dark suggestions were ok until i got to dark mind. You want vengeance on a 60 second cooldown you can stack with your other buffs? Come on---really? That would put you ahead of paladins (EASILY) on mitigation against all damage sources while having better offense.

---

Fair enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Sorry, what?

---

Good thing I explained what I meant in a spoiler right under that statement. Phew...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.
PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

---

While I still think that Shield Oath is underwhelming. I can agree with those who think buffing it makes PLD too strong. Shield Swipe just Generating Enmity is still lack luster. I'd still like to see a TP or MP regen added to it.

I want to use Clemency more often, and I want it to proc Divine Veil. The one change I can't stress how much I think it needs to happen. Make Clemeny Proc Divine Veil.

I don't want DRK to have more DPS. I want DRK to be more based on lifetaps and dots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R-Kine

Good thing I explained what I meant in a spoiler right under that statement. Phew...

---

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.

Shield Swipe also works perfectly fine for TP and the only time PLD has trouble with TP is when they're either:

1.) Off tanking (no way to regen TP outside of not attacking the boss or Bulwark/Sheltron + Covering the tank) or
2.) MTing a magic boss (nothing to block, therefore no shield swipes)

PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.

Shield Swipe also works perfectly fine for TP and the only time PLD has trouble with TP is when they're either:

1.) Off tanking (no way to regen TP outside of not attacking the boss or Bulwark/Sheltron + Covering the tank) or
2.) MTing a magic boss (nothing to block, therefore no shield swipes)

PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

---

I'm taking it you havnt done much ravanah ex with competent dps. While tanking, you do the lowest dps of all tanks, which isnt an issue save that you are going to be constantly worried about threat unless you have a ninja (or bad dps). Most rav ex paladins can only do halone->halone->goring. Royal is a pipe dream.


Shield Swipe also is not tp management. Every time you hit the button, you gained back a whopping 10 tp. It costs less than what you regen--sure but its not free. It also tends to lead to your debuffs falling off, so generally not ideal. Want to regen tp? Throw out a flash--regen a full gcds worth of tp to throw into better combos.

Paladins aoe is a joke. OT damage is the weakest of the three. The shield and 2 of your cooldowns (the things you get in return for your low dps) are useless vs magic (meaning that, vs heavy magic, you basically enjoy all the paladin CONS and none of the Pros. Weird design). Yes we were great when everything was physical, but not that its not, you have to question why you have downsides that apply all the time and perks that apply only in some content.

Wars are currently far far better overall tanks, always solid, always working at full potency save for -one- cooldown. Excessive threat means they are free to switch betweens stances as needed. Great (best OT), and not lacking at all as an MT (equilibrium is an instant clemency without the ridicoulous cast time for instance).

Paladins have too many abilities that work well in dungeons that are basically useless in raids is kind of a key issue. Our aoe has built in blind, but no damage. Well the blind is 100% useless in raids. Pacification is useless in raids. The ability to chain stun? Useless in raids (save for slimes in a3?). Paladins were designed and still carry too many elements from early 2.0 and need to be rethought out. Massively over buffed ---no--no one is saying that. But in a world where drk and war have constant damage buffs, incredible threat and seem better suited for future content, Paladins are not in a great position.

Also--who thought a 3.0 sec cast on a tank ability was a great idea? I would understand if it didnt cost half your mana bar, but it does. It already has a limiter!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If you are so very smart that you can call all other stupid, then I am sure you can offer a cogent explanation of why the changes you refer to are no good. Of course, if you were really so very smart, you'd have done that instead of simply insulting everyone. On the other hand, you might be having a bad day, in which case, you could always post that well thought out reply now. :)

---

I've posted suggested changes that would fit in line with each of the three tanking classes in many threads through out the tanking forums that were changes which would result in proper balancing with very little drastic alteration of the class or the skills themselves.

"Too many stupid people making too many stupid change ideas without actually thinking of ALL the repercussions of the changes." This literally means that when people are suggesting changes, they are going much further with certain things than necessary and taking issues that are frankly quite minor and turning them into imbalances between the classes. THAT is why they are stupid changes. Anyone who really thinks SE is going to make some massive overhaul to 20 skills on a tank class all at once is fooling only themselves. Get real and tone the ideas down to things that are all likely to ideas to be seen in simple patches.

My suggestions thus far:
Parry: Allow Parry to now affect both the rate and the strength of parries, much the same that Crit Rate affects both the rate and the strength of critical hits. Otherwise, keep Parry the same. No tanking class should have any drastic alteration or addition to parry as people have suggested for Dark Knights being able to Parry magical damage.

Paladin:
-Remove the TP cost from Shield Swipe, remove the pacification from Shield Swipe, slightly increase the damage from Shield Swipe. Something along the lines of 240, 250 instead of the current 210. As it is, there's a DPS loss if used during certain rotations.
-Let Clemency activate Divine Veil. That's it, no cast reduction, no cost reduction.
Nothing else is necessary for Paladin.

Warrior:
There isn't much to be said here, as the class is well balanced as it is.

Dark Knight: Needs the most changes due to the massive additions to the current tanks
Darkside: Remove the MP drain. Do not allow it to stack with Grit. No longer required to be active for the usage of certain cooldowns.
Blood Price: Reduce incoming damage by 10% for 15 seconds. Recover MP each time you take damage. Can only be used under Grit now
Blood Weapon: Change to a 10% increase in damage done. Recover MP each time you do ANY damage. Can only be used under Darkside now.
Dark Arts: No longer effects Dark Mind, Dark Dance, Dark Passenger, Carve and Spit, and Abyssal Drain. Now also affects Delirium. Removes the TP requirement for the skills it affects.
Souleater: Always absorb 50% of damage as HP no matter what stance as long as you combo. Dark Arts Effect: Increase Potency to 400 and absorb 100% of damage as HP.
Delirium: Combo potency: increase to 300 Dark Arts Effect: Lowers the target's INT by 10%.
Dark Mind: Always reduces magic damage by 30%
Dark Dance: Changed to increase Parry by 40%, no longer increases Evasion by 20% as it is no longer effected by Dark Arts and 20% evasion sucks when stacked on top of a parry increase.
Dark Passenger: Potency is always 250, and always Blinds for 15 seconds. Remove MP cost
Abyssal Drain: Always absorb 100% of damage done as healing. Remove the Increased Enmity.
Carve and Spit: Potency is always 450 and the skill always restores MP.

Reasons: MP is now less of an issue to deal with thanks to the removal of the MP drain on Darkside. Blood Price and Weapon are now situational more towards to when you will really need them. Price while tanking and receiving damage, weapon while doing higher damage under Darkside as the off tank. Dark Arts is your TP recovery option now. You expend MP to negate the TP cost of one third hit combo skill. Important cooldowns are now no longer linked to your MP pool or having a certain buff active that also drains your MP. Thus, all the issues that DRK is facing right now are solved. There is a small boost to survivability while tanking with Blood Price lowering damage taken by 10% for 15 seconds every 40 seconds. The potency of Darkside is no longer gimped by the damage reduction of Grit so you now see your full damage plus 10% more from Blood Weapon for 15 seconds every 40 seconds. Your MP is now not such a detriment when you run out, because you are now still able to use your cooldowns to their full potential. MP is now able to help mitigate your TP loss by negating the need for TP on one of your three finisher skills. Small damage increases here and there have helped the class perform more on par with Warriors as well when off tanking. None of this was class shattering. None of this drastically alters skills more than necessary. And they are all just small one or two dimensional changes on skills rather than entire skill overhauls, many of them are in fact slight nerfs to certain extraneous parts of the skills while increasing or adding the important pieces that make the class flow better with itself. And all of these are suggestions I have made in posts in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

long post

---

I've done a lot of Ravana EX and I tank 99% of it in Deliverance with competent DPS + no NIN. If you're tanking it in ShO and losing threat... I've no idea what to tell you. Use STR accessories?

Flash is better for TP management, but also does literally 0 damage. One Shield Swipe every now and then will not murder your DPS considering that otherwise you are either doing no damage or you're running out of TP and doing no damage.

I also think PLD is a better OT than WAR. With PLD MT in SwO you are going to be doing Goring + Royal all the time since Halone is your least powerful attack, and when you are inevitably forced to use Halone your damage is going to plummet. Meanwhile WAR's best damage dealing combo is SE -> BB which will generate a lot of aggro on top of the buffs and triple Fell Cleave. Even if both are in tank stance, WAR's tank stance DPS is higher than PLD's so you'd still want WAR MT + PLD OT. The big problem PLD has is regenerating TP on fights that don't have much down time, specifically as OT and against magic bosses - if they got a way to get back TP as OT they'd be fine.

PLD's AOE advantage is that it doesn't cost TP and can be regenerated easily. It doesn't do damage, but you do have CoS which will do damage over time while you focus down specific adds with damaging combos. It's not like WAR just sits there spamming OP, you will lose all of your TP that way and Equilibrium won't save you. When I was first learning A2 I had many problems where I was out of TP because I kept using OP too much. DRK has great AOE afaik, but I've no idea how it actually works.

Chain stunning has also been useful since T5 and it's (potentially) going to be extremely useful in Savage A3.

PLD is in an extremely good place right now and no one will stop crying until it's absolutely perfect. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

.

---

One of the few people that can actually see that perfection doesn't equal balanced. I still have to say that PLD still makes a good MT. But I actually don't usually use Royal Authority when MT, because between ALWAYS utilizing Shield Swipe, plus keeping up the RoH debuff and the Goring Blade debuff, I'm usually just stuck to those three things. Cycling in a Royal Authority usually results in me losing one of those debuffs, and either taking more damage, or not keeping my potent DOT up, which is an even worse DPS loss. With that rotation, I never lose TP, and I still get a good DPS output despite using Shield Swipe at every possible proc, plus Shield Swipe also increases my Enmity now. Royal Authority is great, but I usually only use it if I am OT because I can almost always count on one or two Shield Swipes in my MT rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hundred

Why does Defiance even have a damage penalty, monks Fist of the earth doesn't have a damage penalty.
Square please.

---

Because monks are a DPS class...

What about Power Slash...

As is, it's a combo not worth using - have the Dark Arts buff make it 300 potency uncombo'd or add utility to it - so then it could be valued as a 4th hit in a DEL or SE combo or worth rotating to keep up a buff/debuff.

For a tank class to have their enmity combo be avoided as much as possible - just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't get why Divine Veil needs a heal to work, just pop it and everyone nearby gets a 10% of my HP shield, done.

Also I've not noticed any sort of sparkly magic appearing on people it lands on, surely we could some visual feedback for that.