Law Healer gear needs Accuracy.

Below are depicted situation for two different groups of 4 man parties. (Just covering all my bases in case somebody derps and tell me Healer B is doing all the work while Healer A is DPSing >___>, AKA is 2 different group, 2 different, time, same fight)

Monk A deals 1200 DPS in a fight while handling mechanics properly.
Monk B deals 900 DPS in a fight while handling mechanics properly.

Monk A is clearly better than Monk B.

Healer A deals 400 DPS while keeping people alive in a fight.
Healer B does no damage while keeping people alive.

Which healer is the better healer in this situation?

@DreamWeaver
Depends. Did Healer A doing dps cause Healer B to use up half of their mana bar while A is stance dancing, or burn unnecessary cooldowns? (benediction, lustrates...)
Also only 1 healer at a time can safely risk going into stance. Meaning that both A and B did a good job: A doing the extra dps, and B being able to solo heal while A throws up some dots.

Any healer thats done hard content knows that going into dps stance diverts your attention away from the party. Putting stance on basically says "i'm going to stop looking at everyones hp while i do this." I dont choose to talk on the cellphone while I drive just because I can. I prefer to be activly scanning the surronding area, because even if I never/rarely have an accident, Id prefer to not be That One Guy that killed everyone due to wacky circumstances.

Please read the very 1st line :(.

I have specifically stated that the examples are 4 man parties in hopes of creating misunderstanding like yours thinking Healers A and B are in the same group in the same time, when actually is different group, different time, same fight.

P/S: I added the "different group, different time, same fight" in my original post, don't know why I never add that in the first place for clearer explanation.

Sorry, didnt notice that first line. My point still stands though. Unnecessary mana consumption, attention diversion.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Woo, spring break!

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I'm actually curious about your in-game experiences and attitudes regarding healer DPS. The forums feel like an entirely different world at times when I consider my own experiences! Just looking at the Au Ra thread over in the General section, you would've thought that female Au Ra would've flooded the game, but there's a surprising amount of male Au Ra too! :p

I tend to do my roulettes as a Ninja fairly often, and I've been spending practically all of 51-60 by levelling as a Ninja and Dark Knight (well, the DRK is a work in progress, but you get what I mean). In Heavensward, I've yet to see someone comment on the healer not DPSing, even if they're doing silly things like jumping around all the time. I recall a handful of tanks expressing disappointment (sometimes less nicely) at the healer not chipping in with some damage during the 2.X cycle, but those situations were incredibly rare. Likewise, while praise for the healer adding some damage was a bit more common, it was still quite rare to see it. Indeed, you'd think people would worship the ground I tread on considering how often I tend to DPS as a Healer, but most tend to be apathetic towards it. If I end up being praised, it's usually because of the tank not dying to multiple Final Stings going off in Neverreap, not because I'm outdamaging everyone else and keeping the group alive.

On the other hand, a shocking amount of people have bashed me for adding DPS to Extreme Primals and Alexander. Usually it's DPS who claim that it's their job to deal damage and that I should shut up and heal (which I already am doing in general, just not these 7.5 seconds), often when we're repeatedly wiping to things that die too slowly (adds, or gods forbid, the enrage timer), so they should arguably appreciate the extra DPS, but they bizzarely don't. Perhaps they have a complex?

Or it's the Co-Healer who panics over the tiniest scratch and begins spamming Cure II, claiming that I'm not doing my job (again, yes I am, just not these 7.5 seconds). And these tend to genuinely piss me off compared to the silly DPS already mentioned. I do not like being lectured by someone who refuses to let their HoTs do their work, or doesn't preshield big hits, or ends up doing colossal amounts of overhealing and going OOM because they keep using the wrong spell for the situation. More often than not they also fail to see why someone died in the first place (no, it wasn't Cleric Stance that made the DPS jump off Bismarck's platform, it really wasn't), yet go into a tirade that people suck.

Then again, Alexander seems to be a funny creature. The first week I had DPS raging at the tanks for explaining the fights in Sector 1 and 3, telling the tanks to calm down and stop raging against those poor first-timers. Ah, the lack of self-awareness. We hadn't even pulled the bosses once. :p

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Please read the very 1st line :(.

I have specifically stated that the examples are 4 man parties in hopes of creating misunderstanding like yours thinking Healers A and B are in the same group in the same time, when actually is different group, different time, same fight.

P/S: I added the "different group, different time, same fight" in my original post, don't know why I never add that in the first place for clearer explanation.

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Obviously Healer A. I almost give commendation to that WHM that spams Holy in 4 man dungeons.

Dreamweaver seems to have missed the issue here. Four man dungeons are not relevant to this discussion.

Emmmm we're talking about healer DPS no?
I can choose to dps in 4 man, I can choose not to.
I can choose to dps in 8 man, I can choose not to.

Seems relevant to me!!

Or if it makes you happy, maybe I'll create another situation where Healers A and B did 400 dps each while keeping group alive, while Healers C and D did 0.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

Any healer thats done hard content knows that going into dps stance diverts your attention away from the party. Putting stance on basically says "i'm going to stop looking at everyones hp while i do this." I dont choose to talk on the cellphone while I drive just because I can. I prefer to be activly scanning the surronding area, because even if I never/rarely have an accident, Id prefer to not be That One Guy that killed everyone due to wacky circumstances.

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Pulling the "but if you DPS you can't heal as efficiently as a healer who only heals"? Entirely wrong. Any good healer knows that endgame fights are extremely scripted and very "phase-based", meaning the party is going to take a huge hit the next 15-20 seconds, and then, the boss is going to autoattack for the next 10 seconds. Any good healer knows that they must bring every single tool they have to make the party survive those 20 seconds where everybody is getting hit hard, just like any good healer knows the next 10 seconds after that can be offhealed by a regen and a fairy and there's no need to scan anything there.
Could you enlighten me on what potential threats does your party go through Ravana's multiple liberations?

Just checked in on this thread if we had any relevant accuracy-related discussions going on, seeing as I have a post in this thread and thus the forums prompted up a notification. I have clearly made a terrible mistake.

http://i.imgur.com/n24Pm0o.gif

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Emmmm we're talking about healer DPS no?
I can choose to dps in 4 man, I can choose not to.
I can choose to dps in 8 man, I can choose not to.

Seems relevant to me!!

Or if it makes you happy, maybe I'll create another situation where Healers A and B did 400 dps each while keeping group alive, while Healers C and D did 0.

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HAHA! NO! Thats not what the point of this thread is even about. Did you even read the title? We're talking about adding accuracy to healer equipment to hit accuracy checks. We are not talking about whether dpsing as a healer is good or bad. The only dungeons that have an accuracy issue for healers is in 8 man raid content. Four man dungeons are not relevant here.

As for " another situation where Healers A and B did 400 dps each while keeping group alive, while Healers C and D did 0." then we are talking about 8 man content which is raid tier, in which case I would say the same issue, which you have yet to refute: Unnecessary mana consumption, attention diversion.

Never judge a book by its cover, or in this case its title, as it has already been derailed to hell and back from the very 1st page.

Why do you even bother trying to nitpick with me in the 1st place then? You should have just straight away tell me to LOOK AT THE TITLE!!
Instead you went along with me and started talking about "once you stance dance, you won't look at the party list anymore" etc (btw I think Gallus is waiting for your answer).

If "Attention Diversion" is an issue when you DPS, the solution is a healthy dose of GIT GUD.
If I end the fight with 60% MP, means I should have spent that 60% DPSing, knowing how to judge your MP consumption and deciding whether to DPS or not is another skill a healer need to learn if he/she wishes to excel.
Anyway I said my piece, so peace out!

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Stuff

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I have not ran Ravana Ex yet, nor do I even know what liberations are, but I'm assuming youre talking about when he's chatting it up and charging up the big hit for 20 seconds. Thats blatantly obvious that everyone should be trying to dps at that point. On that note, 8 man content was designed to be beaten by a party minus healer dps. If youre failing to clear even with healer dps, you have a bigger issue then a healer doing less then half of a damage dealing class.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

(btw I think Gallus is waiting for your answer).

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Indeed. I just don't know what is even up with these guys seriously, it's like there's a red wall over there, most of the people can clearly notice it's red, yet they keep insisting it's blue.
Do 1st world clear groups have their healers DPSing? Yes. Do they look concerned about this unnecessary mana consumption or attention diversion you speak of? No. Discussion should end here.

HOWEVER...

Should we discriminate healers for not DPSing? No. Is insulting players a nice thing to do? No. Is the sky blue? Yes. Am I a jerk for pointing out the sky is blue? No.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

I have not ran Ravana Ex yet, nor do I even know what liberations are, but I'm assuming youre talking about when he's chatting it up and charging up the big hit for 20 seconds. Thats blatantly obvious that everyone should be trying to dps at that point.

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Exactly. These downtimes exist, and they may not be as obvious as REX liberations, but they are there, and many of them are almost as blatant, I could literally make you an entire list going through T1-13 and every EX primal and I'd be typing until tomorrow morning.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

On that note, 8 man content was designed to be beaten by a party minus healer dps. If youre failing to clear even with healer dps, you have a bigger issue then a healer doing less then half of a damage dealing class.

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So? Shouldn't you be concerned about how much you can bring regardless of how much others pull?

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Exactly. These downtimes exist, and they may not be as obvious as REX liberations, but they are there, and many of them are almost as blatant, I could literally make you an entire list going through T1-13 and every EX primal and I'd be typing until tomorrow morning.

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You're saying in turn 1-13 there are parts where the bosses are literally doing zero damage for 20 seconds? not auto attacking? not doing medium strength hits? Because i could have sworn they all did auto attacks the entire time (or from adds that spawn), and medium strength hits, NOT just huge tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

So? Shouldn't you be concerned about how much you can bring regardless of how much others pull?

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What I bring? I bring the ability to solo heal the shit out of two tanks eating an akh morn because the white mage fell, and halone help me get him off the ground before i hit zero mana. Im not throwing that away on stupid half ass dps when it may be needed to carry the party to victory with healing. Because clears on up to date content rarely go well. Theyre more likely to scrape by on all healers blowing all mana healing

Let me give you a little insight into healing hard content. It's hard. I can keep everyone from dying to stupid things, unless it was way too much. I can blow all my cooldowns and adlo the shit out of everyone and everything, and no one will die ever. But guess what? That takes a ton of mana having full unrestricted protection from everything. And sometimes I gotta do that for the next 20 seconds, praying to god that the damage stops. That the other healer gets up, or the other dps, or the other tank. And if it doesnt stop in 20 seconds, I have no more resources. The last thing im going to do is throw away any resources on dpsing unless im absolutly sure everyone is ok, or the other healer has my back while I go into stance.

People seem to think the healers are just jumping around, healing 1 handed while eating chips, when its time for raiding. If any healers are doing that, theyre wasting everyones time. Go run alexander floor 4 right now with duty finder. It usually ends in a wipe or the healer's mana gone by the end, because the party is not experianced.

"But thats df of course they suck"

If youre running with your raid group, theyre more then capable of clearing it without your dps. They want you to concetrate on healing them so that they, the players that have more armor, take the risks and possibly take high damage, instead of you (the less armor) take the risk and die, or lose someone else.

And as for savage? It was stated to be cleared without healer dps. You wanna try and clear it undergeared and make a kill using healer dps? Go ahead. The dev's are not going to hand you your own hallowed ground and flare cross class.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

Stuff about healing.

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Indeed, comrade. We must exercise utmost vigilancy in keeping the valiant tanks healthy at all times. We will never know if the very next attack suffered at the hands of the foul creature will result in our Paladin being smited; after all, he is tasked with the arduous of task of tanking through the continuous torrent of auto-attacks, with only Embrace, Regen and continuous heals by two of us healers by his side. Remain ever steadfast and do not succumb to the diabolical urges of destruction, for quickening the task of the soldiers on the field is not our calling.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

Indeed, comrade. We must exercise utmost vigilancy in keeping the valiant tanks healthy at all times. We will never know if the very next attack suffered at the hands of the foul creature will result in our Paladin being smited; after all, he is tasked with the arduous of task of tanking through the continuous torrent of auto-attacks, with only Embrace, Regen and continuous heals by two of us healers by his side. Remain ever steadfast and do not succumb to the diabolical urges of destruction, for quickening the task of the soldiers on the field is not our calling.

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Hey wouldnt you know it? SE decided to make raid wide damage hurt. Good thing I managed to use Fey Covenant, sacred soil, and Virus, and spent time casting physick getting everyone to full instead of throwing dots before the boss went invulnerable, otherwise those 3 dps left with under 100 health due to (raise sickness/ low hp base/ couple pieces of gear not highest) would have bitten the dust. And even if after all that and the party is left with 20% hp on the lowest person, better safe then sorry.You had no way of knowing what damage was incoming. If I knew beforehand it would do 9205 damage and the dps had 9206/10205 hp, then I could have just ignored healing him. But I cant predict the future, so yeah. Did my job

I'm afraid you misunderstand, dear healer friend.

The healer's DPS is the single most decisive factor for the raid, and your entire raid should revolve around maximizing the healer's DPS. As tanks, you should willingly die for the healer to maintain their DoTs. Your co-healer should be going oom when the boss still has 50% HP for you to squeeze in three more Broils. If mechanics need to handled, the damage dealers should do so instead, because the healer's DPS is more important than the actual damage dealers' DPS. If you succesfully do an Assize crit, the whole raid should stop doing what it's doing and bow down before your superiority, because in the end, they're all base beasts that will resort to murderous violence to win your divine favour.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

You had no way of knowing what damage was incoming.

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Yes I did, this game is very scripted. You optimize the way you play with the normal/optimal outcomes in mind, with a plan B at the ready. Immediately going all tinfoilhait-mode with "what if damage happens?" doesn't help anyone over time; you could lessen your overhealing, plan better and just generally being more proactive and we'd all be happier. A part of healing awareness is also knowing when not to heal. I usually like to write bibles on the forum but I've touched on some of this before in my earlier posts, like, here (although the topic is different).

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Originally Posted by Raminax

If mechanics need to handled, the damage dealers should do so instead, because the healer's DPS is more important than the actual damage dealers' DPS.

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What the hell are you talking about? The whole reason why the healer passes the rod back and forth on turn 12 is so the dps can maintain their dps, because theirs is WAY higher then yours. Sure, lets have the monk pass the rod to the scholar, instead of the scholar taking it from the monk! Why have the scholar pass it and take it from the black mage, when the monk can just throw away his greased lightning! What an ingenious idea!

FFS man

You don't seem to realise you're being ridiculed

I have read the post you linked tranquil. While I admit I need to figure out a better way to manage my fairy's embrace (i wish she would just do zero healing if put on obey) here's the problem. You play proactively, I play reactivity.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You don't seem to realise you're being ridiculed

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Duh. Instead of providing an actual answer, they decide to post nonsensical jibberish.

I dont care if they post garbage on the forum. But I do care if someone else actually believes that garbage.

Honestly, SE should just make it so that upon entering 8 man content, all healer's accuracy drops to 1. And everything that isnt the boss has an accuracy requirement of 1. And Energy Drain gives mp regardless if you hit the enemy or not. And I guess assize could hit the boss. Doesnt get more clear then that.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

Duh. Instead of providing an actual answer, they decide to post nonsensical jibberish.

I dont care if they post garbage on the forum. But I do care if someone else actually believes that garbage.

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I'm glad you realise they're posting "nonsensical jibberish" and "garbage", because they're summing up everything you claimed in this topic

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'm glad you realise they're posting "nonsensical jibberish" and "garbage", because they're summing up everything you claimed in this topic

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OK whatever im done with this. 5am and im going to sleep. If you honestly think healers should dps then whatever, go dps. Dont heal someone. Pass the rod to the monk. Wipe the raid. Because I sure as hell havent cleared all content before Heavensward hit. I dont fucking care.

Honestly, SE should just make it so that upon entering 8 man content, all healer's accuracy drops to 1. And everything that isnt the boss has an accuracy requirement of 1. And Energy Drain gives mp regardless if you hit the enemy or not. And I guess assize could hit the boss. Doesnt get more clear then that.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

snip

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Here is exactly where you're in the wrong. You seem to think the healer is either in dps mode full time or healing full time and there's no middle ground or flexibility. There's been examples of healer pairs doing 400 dps combined and no one dies and healer pairs doing none at all and no one dies. The former pair obviously put in a bit more effort for the same result as the latter.

You mentioned solo healing stuff, that's fine, one healer can be a supportive healer and aid you only when needed. If you're solo healing and overhealing for 80% worth, that's 80% effort wasted which could have gone into other activities. Passing the brands in T12 (by your example) would be one of them. But also by your logic, healers shouldn't be doing this either as they can't be healing while performing mechanics.

Here is the problem here, keyburz. You claim healers shouldnt dps. And yes, they dont NEED to. But that doesn't mean it wouldnt make them a better player for it if they know how to manage it.

If they can add dps without burning too much mp or causing problems for the other healer (if in 8 man content) then why not? "The tank will die!" Not if said healer knows the simple thing of when to stop dpsing. Healers that dont know how to do that are the ones that shouldnt be dpsing. People cant force you as a healer to dps but I will dps as a healer whether you like it or not because i actually know how to.

Oh, also, just proves how well you know the healer classes:
Dropping the accuracy to 1 will hardly do anything towards scholars and astrologian as majority of their damage come from DoTs - or at least half of it in case of scholars.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Oh, also, just proves how well you know the healer classes:
Dropping the accuracy to 1 will hardly do anything towards scholars and astrologian as majority of their damage come from DoTs - or at least half of it in case of scholars.

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Partly true. Dropping accuracy to 1 would affect WHMs the most. SCHs could still bring in Bio II, Bio and Shadow Flare. ASTs could still bring in Combust and Combust II. WHMs could...cry.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Partly true. Dropping accuracy to 1 would affect WHMs the most. SCHs could still bring in Bio II, Bio and Shadow Flare. ASTs could still bring in Combust and Combust II. WHMs could...cry.

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close but you forgot miasma and miasma 2 :)

Gallus, lyrica never mentioned WHM.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

close but you forgot miasma and miasma 2 :)

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Miasma and miasma 2 would miss. Every spell with initial damage can potentially miss. Only those DoTS that do not have initial damage can't miss (eg. Bio II, Bio, Combust, Combust II).

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Originally Posted by HyperNovaX

Gallus, lyrica never mentioned WHM.

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However, he/she was quoting a poster who wished all healers accuracy dropped to 1 expecting that would eliminate the possibility for any of the 3 healers to DPS, when the only real thing that would probably do is automatically make the WHM not viable in 1st world clears. Just thought it was relevant enough to mention ^^

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Originally Posted by Gallus

However, he/she was quoting a poster who wished all healers accuracy dropped to 1 expecting that would eliminate the possibility for any of the 3 healers to DPS, when the only real thing that would probably do is automatically make the WHM not viable in 1st world clears. Just thought it was relevant enough to mention ^^

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I agree with this line to. If the accuracy checks are real for Alexander Savage, then despite ASTs shortcomings, they'll probably be taken over a WHM due to their guaranteed DPS potential.

P.S.

Why does every third or fourth thread in this forum eventually devolve into this DPS arguement? >>;...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Why does every third or fourth thread in this forum eventually devolve into this DPS arguement? >>;...

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- The average healer being a self-important dweeb. Yoshi says that being basic/average is good enough for clearing the hardest content, so stop taking offense to being called mediocre/not doing your very best, instead of good/excellent.
- The average healer being a self-important dweeb. There's more to good healers than just adding DPS to your repertoire. Not DPSing doesn't automatically make you bad.
- People being absolutely horrible at posting balanced arguments, i.e. "there's a time for DPS, and there are times to not DPS" and not "That Ladybug began casting Teraflare the moment I hovered over Cleric Stance, true story" or "Begin DPSing before I break into your house and replace all your actions on the bar with /grovel commands"

Pick one poison, I suppose. :p

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Originally Posted by keyburz

You're saying in turn 1-13 there are parts where the bosses are literally doing zero damage for 20 seconds? not auto attacking? not doing medium strength hits? Because i could have sworn they all did auto attacks the entire time (or from adds that spawn), and medium strength hits, NOT just huge tank busters.

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Funny you mention T13. All the T13 farm groups on my server would kick a scholar who wouldn't dps. It pushed all the phases so much faster it was expected the scholar would pump out a moderate amount of dps. If dps was low a scholar who didn't stance dance shouldered a portion of the blame. If dps was solid the group would still opt to replace for someone who could help get them even faster clears.