Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Duality Priority Theorycrafting

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I think the math is actually much more complicated than that... since NIN is an IFs-ridden job :/
Duality could actually give AE an insane priority... damage wise...

Lets say we have Duality at hand, but our current situation requests us to go DE » SF > MU » AC » AE.
AE is quite far there... as far as it could be actually (and happens quite often too). Lets say that DE will fall in exactly 7 seconds, this means that it will definitely not make it even to the SE of SF.
Now lets say for the sake of Duality we swap DE and AE position so it looks like: AE » SF > MU » AC » DE.

Duality would have an oGCD value of 352 (because it manages to catch DE), but what do we lose from not having DE for the next 9 actions?
SF -> 35
MU -> 6
AC -> 63
DE -> 61
for a total of 165 potency... against 352? 187

Now lets say we are a bit stupid and do Jugulate, Mug, Dream, Shuriken and TA in that very same 9 actions window??
Jug -> 8
Mug -> 14
Shu -> 24
Dre -> 30
TA -> 40
for a total of 116... against 187? 71 ...

Duality AE still beats the loss of DE... in a solo scenario...
If you have 2 other people benefiting from the slashing debuff every 2~2.5 seconds, don't even think about it :|

Ok double post but it was just bugging me, what you viridiana presented is the theory of what happens if Duality is delayed until the next AE and the benefit of just using it on AC, right?

I just went with another approach with the sacrifice of DE for the sake of AE... tho, it might be ridiculously bad for 8-man scenarios...

Just had to take this off my mind D:

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Ok double post but it was just bugging me, what you viridiana presented is the theory of what happens if Duality is delayed until the next AE and the benefit of just using it on AC, right?

I just went with another approach with the sacrifice of DE for the sake of AE... tho, it might be ridiculously bad for 8-man scenarios...

Just had to take this off my mind D:

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keep in mind that you also need to keep it for burst sometimes. Putting up DE on Moon Gana is mostly a waste. I'd say just do it by gut feeling. The number difference isn't that big that you have to break your head over it.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Duality would have an oGCD value of 352 (because it manages to catch DE), but what do we lose from not having DE for the next 9 actions?
SF -> 35
MU -> 6
AC -> 63
DE -> 61
for a total of 165 potency... against 352? 187

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But sticking to DE>SF>MU>AC>AE gives you 260 potency from Duality, plus the 165 potency you calculated from the GCD attacks. That's 425 potency, not counting the 70+ potency you'd gain from auto attacks being buffed by DE.

Looked at from a potency per second view and starting with the Duality attack, 286/90+2167/20.70+792/18.48 (Duality, GCD, Ohoja Kai Auto Attack, respectively) yields 3.18+104.69+42.86=150.72 potency per second. If you do your proposed swap, you get 352/90+2002/20.7+729/18.48 (Giving Duality, AE, and the first AA the DE debuff) which yields 3.91+96.71+39.45=140.07 potency per second.

Of course, that's still not maximal. Delaying Duality to the AE at the end should still win (even better if you can put it where the AC is without losing Huton) That's 352/108.63+2167/20.70+792/18.48 (accounting for the 9 GCD extra wait) yields 3.24+104.69+42.86=150.78 potency per second.

So, even without accounting for oGCD attacks, frontloading AE just to do Duality sooner isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

More math

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Tooootally with you, so how about delaying SF and MU in favor to Duality AE?
Lemme explain my reasoning to this...

DoTs aren't affected or extended by Duality, so Duality is useless for them, right?
Also, unlike DE, DoTs don't favor party members at all (as soon as you mentioned AutoAttacks I just threw the idea of replacing DE out the window).

But given the importance of this skill, is it mathematically feasable to delay the DoTs appliance in favor of boosting an AE? Specially if the window for AE is far away?

Thinking about the same example: DE » SF > MU » AC » AE
It would look like: DE » AE » AC > MU » SF

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

But given the importance of this skill, is it mathematically feasable to delay the DoTs appliance in favor of boosting an AE? Specially if the window for AE is far away?

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If you lose a single tick of SF and MU, you've lost 70 potency of DOTs to gain 66 potency on Duality versus just doing it on DE, and it gets worse when you consider that you delayed Duality too in order to hit that.

So would be better off just throwing it on whichever finisher is already available depending on the current state of the rotation after all, huh? Be it DE, AE or AC... hrm...

Tho Im still a bit confused, I have to admit...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

So would be better off just throwing it on whichever finisher is already available depending on the current state of the rotation after all, huh? Be it DE, AE or AC... hrm...

Tho Im still a bit confused, I have to admit...

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Well, still assuming that I'm not butchering the math. . .

Did it come up just before AE? Use it on AE, duh.

Did it come up just before AC? If your next 1-2-3 is AE, use it on AE (even if you have to SF and MU first). If your next 1-2-3 is DE, use it on AC.

Did it come up just before DE? If your next 1-2-3 is AE, use it on AE (even if you have to SF and MU first). If your action immediately after DE is to 1-2-3 for AC, use it on AC. If your next 1-2-3 is AC but you must first SF, MU, or both, then use it on DE.

Edit: And naturally, this all assumes that you're getting proper positionals and such. If Ravana is forcing you to hit from the front it's a whole different set of math that I don't feel like going in to.

I also prefer to take into account perfect positionals... taking wrong sides is just a headache.

So I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this...but with my luck lately, I've probably been doing it wrong:

What's my best bet when it comes to accessories for my NIN? I've always prioritized DEX-increasing items, but every blue moon I may throw in a ring to raise my VIT a bit, just to be able to take the occasional hit. Also, out of all the Bonus stat points I've allocated to this point, I've put them all in DEX with the exception of 2 random ones I threw in VIT here and there. So my question is: am I doing it right? haha. I know it's a broad question, but I more or less just want to make sure through 99% of my chips into the DEX pool was/is a good idea.

Should definitely be prioritizing Dex over vit, the increase from the vit on the class stats is negligible from a damage taken perspective so it's better to just add it to the Dex. From a realistic perspective you shouldn't be getting hit with anything that isn't raid wide or mandatory damage. The current gear has enough vit to meet the threshold for this and allow for some mistakes.

As far as secondary stats, I haven't seen the stat weight updates since the expansion but typically after meeting acc cap I prioritize det > crit > SS. 1 Dex was worth about 3 det before expansion.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Should definitely be prioritizing Dex over vit, the increase from the vit on the class stats is negligible from a damage taken perspective so it's better to just add it to the Dex. From a realistic perspective you shouldn't be getting hit with anything that isn't raid wide or mandatory damage. The current gear has enough vit to meet the threshold for this and allow for some mistakes.

As far as secondary stats, I haven't seen the stat weight updates since the expansion but typically after meeting acc cap I prioritize det > crit > SS. 1 Dex was worth about 3 det before expansion.

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Understood! In that case, have I really hurt myself in the long run by putting those 2 points in VIT randomly? Or is that pretty negligible as well?

Sorry guys, I forgot to make an "update post" yesterday so here it is now. Mainly QoL and stuff I was asked to edit/add in.

14/07/15: “Overhaul” Update: BiS recovered with 2.55 weights, Single-Target Rotations updated, section on Heavenwards Abilities added, PvP sections merged, Duality Test on spreadsheet, Abilities edited, Introduction section shortened, and general editing.

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Originally Posted by CodeCass

VIT on NIN

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Yea, VIT won't help you much... its easy to forget, but the DEF from a Tank is far superior from a DPS', not only their HP. So even if your HP does get 200 points closer because extra VIT, your DEF and DEF skills are by no means in the standings of a proper Tank... hell, even Healers are tankier than a DPS.

So, yea, better focus on what you can do :/

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Originally Posted by CodeCass

Understood! In that case, have I really hurt myself in the long run by putting those 2 points in VIT randomly? Or is that pretty negligible as well?

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I mean 2 points of Dex is negligible in its own right. The race you pick likely has more Dex variance than that. But restating is very easy (keepers hymn from GC with seals) and every little bit of damage helps.

I think I'm gonna hold off in worrying about bis until I know the acc cap for Alex savage. Just collecting gear pieces in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

So, yea, better focus on what you can do :/

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That's fine, lol. That's why I asked :) . So in that case, is there a way for me to reset those couple bonus points?
As far as accessories go, I never really OPTED for VIT. I mean I'll always throw something for DEX on before VIT, but just in the case of leveling or whatnot, if a random ring drops from a dungeon that's an iLevel upgrade, but is a VIT ring instead of a DEX ring I may put it on until I can find a suitable DEX upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I mean 2 points of Dex is negligible in its own right. The race you pick likely has more Dex variance than that. But restating is very easy (keepers hymn from GC with seals) and every little bit of damage helps.

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Thanks! I'll grab one of those for sure!

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Originally Posted by CodeCass

I mean I'll always throw something for DEX on before VIT, but just in the case of leveling or whatnot, if a random ring drops from a dungeon that's an iLevel upgrade, but is a VIT ring instead of a DEX ring I may put it on until I can find a suitable DEX upgrade.

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Even if the VIT ring is an item level upgrade, the DEX ring will always be a lot better for you. If I'm remembering correctly, none of the Heavensward content is gated behind item level until the Level 60 dungeons, so increasing item level isn't very important until that point. Then you can get full i145 DEX gear from vendors/questing and start getting i160 from Neverreap and Fractal Continuum.

Oh damn I forgot there was a new thread.

Firstly Leggerless, thanks for the updates, it's a MUCH better guide now.

I have completed my video guides for Ninja which you may be interested in adding in as I feel they compliment your guide well.

Here is a link to the old guide (2.4):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjlmnKtGGbw

And the new updated guide (3.0):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBBlq59pj0

I've used Pingzapper and WTFast, and my Mudras still suck. I'm even on the east coast too. I'm screwed, aren't I? For some reason, my mudras are only flawless when in FPS drop heavy fights(read: S ranks or CT), or when i'm in my housing area in the mist where it on occasion is smooth, which is dumb because something like that normally works the other way around.

very good guide

when it comes to openers, most people either use the DoT opener or the DE after 4 GCDs (slash debuff first>fang>mutilate) opener. for the latter, has anyone found anything better than this? it seems like people are still using the 15s huton wait instead of suiton precasting, even with armor crush making huton not tied to ninjutsu anymore..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ATejxPsSI


suiton precast prepull so there's no 3 step mudra clipping during your rotation

internal wears off right before duality AE, which can't crit at all anyway

xpot wears off after duality AE and jugulate, the end of your burst effectively

your dots are fully buffed

all of your burst in the TA window. kassatsu fuma so you double weave dwad+mug with TA window and still hit duality AE; you can probably get away with kassatsu raiton with fey wind. and with fey wind you can probably hit the jugulate in the TA window too.

by using prepull suiton and letting your huton tick for 22s effectively prepull, compared to the traditional 15s, you set yourself up for a DE>duality AE>DE>AC>DE>AC>DE>AC rotation, right until when your BFB comes up, where you can do BFB buffed AE and BFB buffed duality AE in bfb window, because of the armor crush timings lining themselves up with it. with the 15s huton wait rotation, you end up doing something like DE>duality AE>DE>AC>DE>AE, or AC at 47s on huton (7s clip). if you do AE, then you will end up doing 1 armor crush during your 2nd BFB window instead of an AE.

having BFB be cast after DE means your 2nd BFB will line up with duality and dwad for a decent dps boost.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mujSJ90GnA&t=1m33s). BFB cast after DE will last for [SE>fang>mutilate>SE>GS>AE>SE>GS>DE>SE], whereas the old opener with BFB after your first SE will last for [GS>DE>SE>fang>mutilate>SE>GS>AE>SE]; so not really a big deal to delaying it like this, because you still have BFB for your dots and your burst window. in reality if you're opening with suiton, it's the only real place to put BFB, because the other option would be suiton>SE>bfb>gs>xpot>de>IR, which doesn't align with your 2nd duality/de without significant bfb delay, and your 2nd IR doesn't align as well with your 2nd dot reapplication either, while also being wasted on the duality AE that can't crit

whether in the future its worth it to delay bfb to align it with your subsequent dwad/dualitys is to be seen; it'll also depend on your dot timings for your 3rd bfb and on ofc

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

Alightment of buffs for the 2nd blow based on opener

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Hrm... will need to see about this.

I also like to precast suiton for my opener when possible, but these tanks... the Suiton precast works for me so long the pull happens between the 50~20 seconds of Huton remaining... since well, obviously, if Ninjutsu isn't available by the pull then we can't precast Suiton, and if the timer goes below 20 then we won't make it in time for AC (if the timer goes under 30 AC must be Dualed instead of AE too).

I've noticed tho, that if the opener goes Suiton > SE > BFB > GS > Kas > DE > IR > SE > TA, BFB is back right in time to be used in combination with TA once more, albeit you have to pause for like 0.3 seconds to make this happen.
I haven't really paid attention to how far the second BFB gets into my rotation, but I believe the 2nd Duality was used on AC by precasting Suiton on the 50 seconds remaining time at the start of the dummy fight...

Your point about IR and Duality is also something that's been concerning me, maybe I would be able to finally implement the xpot if I use IR sooner instead... hrm...

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Originally Posted by Artenyan

Hello,
The slashing debuff is a reduction from target's "resistance", it should not be treated as increased damage on the skill but as increased damage on the target.
This would be: Fuma = (240*1.2) / 0.9 = 320
While Raiton is (360*1) / 1 = 360 since there are neither damage buffs (x1 multiplier) nor reduction from target's resistance (Divide by 1 for the resistance).
It may not look like a big increase but it does matter if you take all the multiplier from others stats, especially if you take the mudra cd in the maths.

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The / 0.9 thing has been inspected many times and has been demonstrated to be a 110% damage effect, not a 111.11% damage effect. It's just not how resistance works in this game.

Curious to know what you guys are parsing in fights. Ravana, A4 and the such. Im Ilvl 185 and I finally broke 1k tonight in A4. No food, no pots. Sucked in twice. Did have another ninja, but I was putting up DE debuff. I know they all depend on a lot of factors just curious as to what numbers other NIN connoisseurs are seeing.

Hey guys this is what I was looking at as WE know nothing setup whole point was to stay away from the cancer that is Skillspeed lol.
Can swap between the more crit heavy food or acc heavy food depending on what the acc requirements are.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYL0

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Originally Posted by Firana

Oh damn I forgot there was a new thread.
*snipped rest*

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SURPRISE, ****!

Thanks for the guides Firana. I'll add them under "Additional Sources" under Part IV.

Also guys, I'm sticking to weekly/patch updates or hotfixes so I can still have plenty of time to spare elsewhere--like sacrifices to RNGesus for HQ fish--and not burn myself out. Bulk of the guide's done, so there's plenty for you all to read :P

Off-topic: I'm also writing up a proposal to post in the forums/Reddit implementing Samurai in 3.0 as well. As a DPS role.

To sum: "Patch 3.05:" Updated BiS with 572 accuracy caps (for Ravana EX) with and without food. Added YouTube guides, per Firana's post.

Any resources out there for the alexander accuracy caps? Any idea if its going to be much higher than Rav EX?

If you mean Alexander NM, I've heard it's lower than EX primals (though surprisingly few linkable sources to prove the claim).

I'm expecting Alex Savage to have a higher ACC requirement. If it does--or if the EX primal ACC cap I have is incorrect--then I'll change them accordingly.

Yea talking savage mode. Normal mode is easy to hit as we get TONS from current gear.

Hi as a NIN, i've made myself a BiS but after taking a look at the ones you put on 1º page I wanted a second opinion:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYU5 is this viable

Thanks and great post.

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Originally Posted by blackwolfx9

Hi as a NIN, i've made myself a BiS but after taking a look at the ones you put on 1º page I wanted a second opinion:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYU5 is this viable

Thanks and great post.

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Taking a quick look at this:

-7 Dex
-50 Acc
-169 Crit
+38 Det
+151 SkSpeed

With our current stat weights, Skill Speed is our lowest weighted stat by a pretty decent chunk, especially with keeping Huton up. I would say the 7 loss in dex and the 169 crit would not be worth the 38 in DET and 151 in SkSpeed

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Originally Posted by blackwolfx9

Hi as a NIN, i've made myself a BiS but after taking a look at the ones you put on 1º page I wanted a second opinion:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYU5 is this viable

Thanks and great post.

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You're welcome :p

Let's compare the build you linked and the one I have that doesn't include food benefits now, shall we? Both'll satisfy the 572 ACC constraint without any modification. Do note I'm using the weights present above (2.55 weights) in the guide. In "EQ:" a negative value means the new BiS is better than the old BiS; vice versa with a positive value.

WD = 0. No Delta.
DEX: 1072 - 1064 = 8
CRT: 706 - 797 = -91
DET: 600 - 570 = 30
SS: 610 - 579 = 31

EQ: 9.132(0) + 1(8) + 0.325(30) + 0.226(-91) + 0.215(31) = 3.849 [2.849]

Positive value. The BiS I'm using--without any food benefits-- is higher compared to the one you set up.

Let's see the difference when we make both sets have the same food: HQ Morel Salad.

WD = 0. No Delta.
DEX: 1072 - 1064 = 8
CRT: 706 - 797 = -91
DET: 630 - 570 = 60
SS: 622 - 579 = 43

EQ: 9.132(0) + 1(8) + 0.325(60) + 0.226(-91) + 0.215(43) = 16.179 [15.179]

Positive value as well (as expected, thankfully), so the current BiS is higher compared to the one you set up.

Let's change up what we'll consider the "old BiS" now and replace the w/o food version with the established w/ food version.

WD = 0. No Delta.
DEX: 1072 - 1064 = 8
CRT: 814 - 797 = 17
DET: 613 - 570 = 43
SS: 544 - 579 = -35

EQ: 9.132(0) + 1(8) + 0.325(17) + 0.226(43) + 0.215(-35) = 15.718 [14.718]

Positive value. Surprisingly lower than the original w/o food version + HQ Morel Salad; I think I have a hotfix upcoming on that! Only issue is that the w/ food version always requires that particular food to be active.

The BiS set you have is viable, as it satisfies any established constraints, but barely loses to the optimals when using 2.55 established weights.

These sets could easily change when 3.0 weights are released; it's why BiS is organized under "III. Ninja R&D."

Edit: Noticed I was using Midlander, yet compared to Au Ra. Values would be 1 lower (noted in brackets).

Sorry for double post >.>

Hotfixed the BiS Section.

Summary:
If you can afford food, go the w/ food route.
If you cannot afford food, go the w/o food route.

So we are pretty set on the ~570 accuracy for rear/flank for at least a1 and a2?

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

So we are pretty set on the ~570 accuracy for rear/flank for at least a1 and a2?

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I'd claim it so.

Saw flank values of 569 at 99.31% (~sigma level 4); safe to assume that values at 570+, including our 572 used in the guide right now, are valid.

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Originally Posted by LordTiberiusRex

Sorry for double post >.>

Hotfixed the BiS Section.

Summary:
If you can afford food, go the w/ food route.
If you cannot afford food, go the w/o food route.

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Don't suppose anyone's working on a sim so we can have 3.05 weights as opposed to 2.55 weights?

Oh God, the Ninja Esoteric chest is terrible. I seriously think my i180 is a better return on damage dealt. The gloves, too.

Why does SE keep stacking Skill Speed, the worst stat in the game, on a class that already burns through TP faster than any melee DPS? :confused:

Any 3m parses laying around? I'm only seeing 3:20 parses on youtube except for one that has the hive weapon, but i'm looking for one that has a Doman weapon.