Oh the irony in the recent live letter Q n A

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

If people already don't read tooltips or do guildhests, what makes you think they'd use tutorials? The tools to learn how to play your class are right there; the problem is that the majority of the players don't care enough to use them.

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And I agree, but think about it. Why would they need to read? Just like in my previous post, the game is so easy to solo, why would they need to do guildheist? And the game is soooo easy, so they must be doing something good, right? SE needs to up the difficulty and challenge way before endgame, hell before you hit lvl 30. Its not the players fault, especially the "casual" player, who is having tons of fun cause they punishing the game, but doing it solo. You can't have people working solo for a very long time, then throw them together and expect them all to function as a team. THIS AIN'T AVENGERS!!!!!!! lol

Part of the problem is that the new jobs started at level 30, not at level 1. I've got nowhere NEAR the amount of time and practice that I had for WHM.. as a result, I feel utterly incompetent with MCH. It's a bit difficult to be trying to adapt to a whole new playstyle halfway through the leveling curve.

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Originally Posted by Freyar

Part of the problem is that the new jobs started at level 30, not at level 1. I've got nowhere NEAR the amount of time and practice that I had for WHM.. as a result, I feel utterly incompetent with MCH. It's a bit difficult to be trying to adapt to a whole new playstyle halfway through the leveling curve.

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And this right here is why I was really hoping the new jobs would start at level 1.

I am still against it. It is fine if you use it in your static, but once it is used in duty finder or anything else it can be used as a weapon to mock and gall at other players purely based on dps, which can result in attacking others. If you don't like that idea you should stay away from duty finder or a pf outside your static. I know there is a lot of armature players out there, but kicking them or mocking them will cause loss of players in the game. Yes, we all want to have fun, but no one likes it when people start to bully others. It kills the morale of the game and makes players hesitant to join a DF or PF. if you are good as you claim then teach them or at least tell them what they are doing wrong and try to help them. Stop being an elitist and be a mentor.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

It's not just that, it's that the players are given new skills with no context at all. Some class/job quests are better than others, but most hand you some new "secret" technique and not even tell you what it's for. So, essentially you're just supposed to derp around with it even if you do read what it does, to be given another skill. Honestly, you also have people who don't read quest dialogue, or find x content used for leveling "boring" and thus only understand their job from FATE grinding (and if you're lucky they used same class/job to run the mandatory dungeons for MSQ).

So, you've got lots of backseat players that no clue how to play their class/job, but they're geared and leveled, so they clearly are experts now. For example, I had a level 50 BLM argue with me that, "Transpose is a worthless skill and should never be used ever." They proceeded to say, "new players should not even bother to put it in their hotbar." The sad thing? There were someone else in the party that agreed! (Yes, we wasted so much time because, you guessed it, no MP.)

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So far the SMN quest have been the best. Y'Mhitra is like "I didn't find anything to help with the Plot, but I DID scrounge up a new spell for you to try." Bard had a great story, but the skills made no sense in relation to it.

How about a lesson of basic dps in the guilds of each job, then there is the time trial you are ilv capped and you have X amount of time to beat your guildmaster dps record.

Sadly if they put this idea people could still harrass other with pf saying (guildmaster record beaten or you aren't decent dps) or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Better = killed it quicker than your last try (obviously within the same group)
Worse = you didn't kill it.

I'm not sure why you need to see the exact numbers for making the boss dead.

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Not really. There are 4 DPS(in a raid setting), and most people are fairly vain. You don't clear because you're not meeting the DPS check(s), well DerpDRG think he's doing fine, it's the other 3 that aren't doing the DPS needed, when it could be him not applying enough DPS himself to help with it, but how would DerpDRG know? He's a god in his eyes, and nothing is telling him otherwise.

Inverse, you could be actually doing the best you absolutely can as your class, the pinnacle of DPS. A couple others are simply throwing bouncy balls at their keys and seeing which skills get used and laughing to themselves, and you don't meet the DPS check as a result and wipe. The paragon of DPS, without some way to measure themselves, may think.. "Maybe i'm doing it wrong" or "what can I do better", but how can they know they can do better or if they're doing anything wrong? They don't even know they're a god among mortal dps.

Judging based on whether or not you killed it quicker or not at all is extremely vague and leads to anecdotal conviction without any substantial proof.

I never booted anyone for low DPS when I lead raids in WoW, Rift, and other games that allowed parsers. I'd evaluate them through out the entire session, and if they did not improve, I would pull them aside and guide them to resources that would enable them to increase their DPS on their own accord. Some were very accepting and appreciative that I helped sit down with them and go over what they could do to improve, and some told me to go eat sh*t.

Guess who continued raiding and clearing?

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

Those scary squirrels don't kill themselves you know. :P

In all honesty you are right though. Here's the first 2 that popped into mind.

CNJ: Hey, you're a healer? Here's a bunch of DPS quests... but don't heal anyone.

BRD: Oh you're a Bard? NEVER USE YOUR SONGS... wat?

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You see the issue my friend!

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

They tell you to play better, put in dps checks everywhere, but ban the usage of parsers.

How can one know what they're doing is any better or worse than if they did it another way, without some way to measure?

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How can you see if you get better if not with DPS checks?

Even if the game writes a rotation down for you there is still no guarantee that people will read it. You try to help players who need help and they just don't read a single word you write. The only people who want to learn to play better will actively look for ways to play better, the people who don't care will just blunder on through.

funny thing is that Yoshi said the same thing to Warriors in 2.0

"WAR can keep up with PLD if played correctly" :rolleyes:

wonder what happened in 2.1?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

funny thing is that Yoshi said the same thing to Warriors in 2.0

"WAR can keep up with PLD if played correctly" :rolleyes:

wonder what happened in 2.1?

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In 2.1 all of a sudden the penny dropped. Oh wait, no sorry they added more mitigation and removed some self heals. Right yea i remember now. Adding in 2 more actual tank cooldowns. 1hp holm and mitigation to vengeance. But surely as war can keep up with pld without mitigation every single static runs 2x war as they are now so over powered its insane? Hahahahaaa

Honestly, I don't like the idea of a DPS parser in game, or even as a mod. I came from another MMO where those things were abused and used to berate new and learning players into quitting entirely.

I wouldn't object to a private message being sent after a wipe, informing each player of their own DPS, and other important mechanics checks. That way only the player knows what it says, and others can't use it against them.

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Originally Posted by Draciella

Snip Id like to think im a good tank but i know my dps game seriously lacks....

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You're a tank, I think your primary concern should be getting your defence and vit up.

I've seen you in-game, most of your gear was aimed at STR. I'm not going to blindly judge on how good of a tank you are because there are of course many more factors, though to be frank I fail to see why you'd care so much about the damage you're dealing.

I apply my dots, my debuffs, and make sure I'm doing all I can to stay alive and keep aggro. Better for the healers to dps when they don't need to heal you, rather than being forced to heal you 24/7 and not being able to dps - but that's just my opinion.

I don't know, I've played two of the healing classes for a bit and there's nothing worse than having to spam heal squishy tanks. Which is to say: Yes, I think that parry and vit you are missing are very important.

I always thought the guilds were lacking in this area, I mean the only one I really remember having any kind of tutorial into the class was the GLD quest covering how to use flash and why it was important to hold aggro. The class quests should either teach you the fundamentals of the class or test how you play them.

Also dungeons that require more than pull everything and spam aoes could help. Original leveling dungeons did this kinda stuff a little better.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

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Funny thing is that there are BRDs doing just a little under DRGs and sometimes over DRGs from what I just read in some parses but the world will never know. :x

A lot of times i am not sure if I'm doing well or sucking. Players aren't really finding out how well they are doing till they are 50+ and by then it's too late. The low dungeons are simply too easy to cause any problems.

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Originally Posted by Felis

How can you see if you get better if not with DPS checks?

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How do you know it was you getting better and not the other 3 DPS simply getting better and carrying you?

I think it's fantastic that Yoshi is taking the stance he has. It's a finely tuned balance and the game does an admirable job with this. This game is meant be challenging to a degree, much of this game is absolutely mindless, requiring little to nothing from a player, aside from random keypress inputs. That kind of thing is for the casuals, and that's fine. They have their place and their content. But for people desiring a little more from their experience, there is also specific targeted content. And the super high end players even have their niche too. Complaining like bratty children on the forums because you can't have all the content tailored to you specifically is embarrassing. This game will never be all things to all people, the self absorbed vocal minority are simply going to have to lower their expectations.

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Originally Posted by Draciella

Or if thats too much bassle, give everyone a f****** parser.... fyi, roles are getting excluded without one. Only valid arguement against "elitism" null and voided.

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There is already a parser that has been said you can use as long as you don't talk about it. And just like an in-game parser, it will ignored by those that don't care.

Oh and rolls would get excluded with one too.

Need to do what WoW did in WoD...needed to get silver in your roles Proving Ground to do heroic dungeons on that role.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

If people already don't read tooltips or do guildhests, what makes you think they'd use tutorials? The tools to learn how to play your class are right there; the problem is that the majority of the players don't care enough to use them.

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Because guildhests have little to no incentive and don't even teach you your job. They'll teach you small things about how some of the dungeon mechanics work but they're all so face-roll easy that you can ignore the mechanics of them and still win.... I mean yes its a funny little metaphor for how most dungeons are but it doesn't help a lick in raids. Plus tooltips offer no reward for reading them.

The suggestion should be that while these things can range from moderate to terribly dificult, they'll offer rewards which even the dunders will want to get. Offering a single High-Price Mat, some Tomes, or even a new "Point" system where you can exchange for various goods might attract attention... and by making them difficult but doable and teaching you how to do it over time, they can add rewards that fit. It probably won't help everyone but I know for a fact there are players out there who are terrible simply because they don't know better, not because they're stubborn lazy fools like the fella from a couple pages back.

Honestly I'm still kind of sad the only reasonable rewards in this game have to be "Tokens" or "Vanity" since SE is hellbent on strict vertical progression with literally all of one endgame raid being the end all of gearing your character.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

tooltips offer no reward for reading them.

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So knowing what a new ability does isn't reward enough for five to ten seconds of your time? Gosh reading sure is hard!

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

So knowing what a new ability does isn't reward enough for five to ten seconds of your time? Gosh reading sure is hard!

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I learn the concepts of my job and utilize them to the best of my abilities, but I've played a lot of MMOs so its easier to me, and I can say for certain Job quests don't fully teach you nuances of a job, especially some of the more complex parts of the job. NIN quests didn't once force me to use a DoT effect, and while yes I would understand its still damage, this game attracts or tries to attract a lot of people new to MMOs, so they need to do a bit of a better job teaching them.. and they simply do not.

So, I'm not discussing what would give myself incentives, I'm talking about the types of people who don't know how to play their jobs, the ones who the OP says Yoshi is essentially telling to "get good". It has nothing to do with the incentives I want, but what incentives should there be to get those people who don't really better themselves to try and better themselves. I mean, people thought Steps of Faith was unfairly difficult, that should tell you full well the level of people we are addressing.

Yes, believe it or not, there are those types of people who don't bother to learn what their abilities do or how to effectively put them to use. And many may understand what it does but not know the proper use of them or how to effectively utilize it. Such as Flash as example, or the effects of DoT abilities on NIN and such. Even abilities most would understand as effective multiple enemy hate tools like Overwhelm, many not understand how to properly use or when to use. These are issues that could be addressed, and as I said in my post, this won't help everyone, but it will help those who are wanting to learn or have the will to learn but just weren't taught properly through job quests or lolguildhests.

I'd say the player base can help eachother but for every 1 person who teaches calmly or who listens and learns, theres a raging a**hole who will blow up on someone and then theres the people who will ignore advice and just continue sucking, creating a very difficult air when it comes to improving those who actually want help. Your attitude is precisely what I'm talking about too... I could be wrong I admit but from your post alone it sounds like you're more likely to call someone a "gimp noob" rather than offer advice because instead of considering why they might be playing badly you just condescend and treat them like they're idiots or lazy for not being on your level.

And yes, its true most of us are probably guilty of going "what a moron" in our heads before actually helping someone, I admit I am once or twice, because a I described a moment ago, its hard to offer advice to people when you have to gamble on if its a "I KNOW MY JOB THANKS" type of person who wants to remain ignorant, or someone who actually just doesn't understand it and could get better if taught well enough. its that air of unsure that makes it hard to teach players who actually need to be taught. Therefor I believe a good first step would be difficult solo "Dungeons" or "Trials" that offer rewards worth doing and really test your understanding of the job and its abilities.

^^^^^^Well Said

To this day there are still plenty of players who don't understand the benefits of using Fracture as a way to boost dps. At least with goring blade there is enough oomph on the initial attack to make it seem more immediately worthwhile.

Now, what if we had that Maat type mentor, but he/she served as the parser? Marked our progress, kept certain challenge dps numbers as a high score of sorts? Use that legendary parser Yoshi claims only they have, and slap it on an npc, problem solved. If we fail an exercise, counsel us, and offer improvements. If we succeed, offer up glamour items or tomes. That would certainly give people more incentive to improve on their own, without fear of ridicule from the player base.

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Originally Posted by ChillbroSwaggins

Now, what if we had that Maat type mentor, but he/she served as the parser? Marked our progress, kept certain challenge dps numbers as a high score of sorts? Use that legendary parser Yoshi claims only they have, and slap it on an npc, problem solved. If we fail an exercise, counsel us, and offer improvements. If we succeed, offer up glamour items or tomes. That would certainly give people more incentive to improve on their own, without fear of ridicule from the player base.

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I like that idea. Like our own personal tinkerbell following us around?

Just give people a personal dps meter already. It could be like tp is now, just the player sees it. Having dps checks of this sort without analytical tools to promote self improvement is silly. It's like asking people to drive the speed limit without a spedometer. There will always be people who don't care to learn but at least give those who do a fighting chance FFS.

It's really irritating that people think they can just do fates to 50+, hop into something and then have the audacity to cry wolf because they aren't at what they should be is the problem with this game and it's player base. Instead of fate grinding to 50, you should have been learning your class as it leveled. Not waited until level 54 to figure out how to use a skill you got for doing your level 35 job quest. You should have been learning how to use it at 35, and then thinking of how to fold it with the rest of your skills as time went on. Use one of those dummies to test things out on, try paying attention. You shouldn't need something outside of the game to tell you whether or not you suck; because frankly, if you do, you probably suck anyways, and not going to make you better. They give you all the information you need at your disposal, giving you another thing you aren't going to read isn't going to help.

Lower fate xp, and make people learn their classes by doing.

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Originally Posted by Dukeun

Lower fate xp, and make people learn their classes by doing.

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Reality is most people aren't in this mindset, 'casual' players or players that "have a life" don't feel the need to improve their competence.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Reality is most people aren't in this mindset, 'casual' players or players that "have a life" don't feel the need to improve their competence.

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False. Incorrect. Horrible generalization.

Okay, first up what's with all the 'filthy casuals' talk? I remind you people that the majority of people who play these games are indeed casual players. There's no skill divide. There's no gear divide. The only difference between these people and you is how much time they spend on the game in a single sitting. There are players who eat, drink and sleep FFXIV and still absolutely suck at their jobs so let's ditch the negative connotations on the word 'casual' for starters.

There will always be players who don't want to improve, but they can't be helped if they don't want to be helped. Some players have been playing their chosen class for so long that they're convinced their way is the only way and the 'best' way. Personally, I think those types are more destructive than the so-called 'casuals' who tackle one obstacle at a time and adjust their tactics accordingly.

I personally feel that the game does a decent job of teaching us our roles. There are specifically tanking roles throughout the Paladin and Warrior quests (I can't speak fully for Dark Knight as I've only done the first one, but even that starting quest had you tanking) where you have to hold enemies off from squishier NPCs. There are plenty of healing quests in the White Mage line, where you have to heal a tank or similar under fire. Heck, the level 50 white mage quest has you healing a tree to purge the taint, whilst being attacked!

Maybe more could be done, maybe not. But if people don't know their roles after unlocking their skills then they probably just aren't interested in learning it.

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Originally Posted by Dukeun

You shouldn't need something outside of the game to tell you whether or not you suck; because frankly, if you do, you probably suck anyways, and not going to make you better. They give you all the information you need at your disposal, giving you another thing you aren't going to read isn't going to help.

Lower fate xp, and make people learn their classes by doing.

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Thats kinda funny cause everywhere I look, you need something "out of the game" to even win...like watching vids on boss encounters. So its ok to surf web, study a video so you can cheat to win, then gloat that you are the best cheater and that everyone needs to "get good" and if you aren't cheating.....wait...i'm sorry...watching vids on boss battle you are doing a disservice to your party members.

They give you everything you need to win in the game as well. I know!!! how about before every new boss/raid/primal they introduce SE releases a video detailing every move they are going to make from the beginning to the end of the fight. Yeah, there ya go. lol. you people kill me with your contradictions.

Do you know who the best players are in this game? The ones that finish content without videos and then put up their "tutorials" for you all to use. You are a bunch of followers. And then have the nerve to judge people and how they play when you can't play the game without help yourselves. Hypocrites.

Oh and by the way, since you need something outside of the game just to play and advance in the game...you suck.

I just had to edit and add to my post. Games are supposed to be fun and everybody has their own way to play. What I hate is you guys that are preening like you are the best and the brightest and you know more, etc., etc. How can you act like that? Maybe its because I'm older and things were different when I first started playing games. Everything was fun but also lots of games were challenging. It wasn't about finishing and beating others more so than testing my own limits and problem solving skills, which seem to be lacking lately. We try to search for a solution before we even know what the problem is because we want to be first more than correct. Thats why I worry about this game and the type of people it attracts. What kind of accolades are you receiving for following someone else and not doing for yourself? I really really hate the mentality of folks in this game. No wonder SE is holding everyones hands and not branching out as much with this game, this community of players is used to being spoon fed. What would you all do if you had to play the game without parsers, without vids detailing every little thing? OMG, you might have to think and use trial and error and adjust and adapt, like we were meant to. come one guys(and gals).

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Originally Posted by Dukeun

Snip

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Disagree with them giving you everything you need. They may tell you your combos. But they don't tell us what the rotations are for maximum dps, that's up to the players to figure out and that's where parsers and spreadsheets are most useful.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Disagree with them giving you everything you need. They may tell you your combos. But they don't tell us what the rotations are for maximum dps, that's up to the players to figure out and that's where parsers and spreadsheets are most useful.

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I also think having just one optimal rotation is the problem. There should be a lot more options for rotations and how to play your jobs without being stuck doing the same rotation every single time.

Well then maybe SE should gate dungeon/raid content behind these tutorials. They could make the player mentor under a master of the Job or some sort. Make them overcome those skill rotation challenges, if they can't pass then their Duty Finder would not even unlock. Currently it's just way too easy to complete those job quest and somewhat a missed opportunity for these clueless players to just mash their buttons through. They would definitely cry later on about it being too hard thats for sure and but at least the bads are all identified with that system.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

I also think having just one optimal rotation is the problem. There should be a lot more options for rotations and how to play your jobs without being stuck doing the same rotation every single time.

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Actually at level 60, the rotations are varied enough for the player to make decisions in a tight raid situation so it's not as brain dead as you think. Well at least for BLM i feel there were alot of situations where i had to make tight choices and somewhat alter my rotation to maintain my Enochian buff.

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Originally Posted by Slirith

snippity snip

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ODG, please no. Never ever ever do what the Wow devs did/do; that goes for almost everything in Wow since Litch King with only a few exceptions. So far, FFXIV is nothing like that pos, and if ever becomes too much like it, I'll just quit altogether. Don't get me wrong, I loved WoW for a long time, but it became, well. A major pos and that's when I took my $$ away from Bliz and found FF.

The best thing about this game has been story line, community, and the fact that Yoshi and the devs don't behave toward the player base the way Blizz does. I hope that never changes, but telling your players to "get gud"? (a phrase that reaks of Bliz, btw) Seriously, YP can do better than that communicating with the folks he says he developed this game for: people who've never played an MMO before. /smh

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Originally Posted by Madsamurai

Actually at level 60, the rotations are varied enough for the player to make decisions in a tight raid situation so it's not as brain dead as you think. Well at least for BLM i feel there were alot of situations where i had to make tight choices and somewhat alter my rotation to maintain my Enochian buff.

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But see, thats the problem. I have to get a class to lvl 60 to have any sort of chance for a varied rotation? No. Once again I'm gonna compare this to ESO. If I play as a mage in ESO, My mage will be different than you mage, different abilities, different focus on stats. I can make a mage thats a tank, or a templar/paladin thats an archer. Its my choice. this game is too linear

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

But see, thats the problem. I have to get a class to lvl 60 to have any sort of chance for a varied rotation? No. Once again I'm gonna compare this to ESO. If I play as a mage in ESO, My mage will be different than you mage, different abilities, different focus on stats. I can make a mage thats a tank, or a templar/paladin thats an archer. Its my choice. this game is too linear

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I swear all you've done this past day is comparisons and complaints.