Machinist is almost the same but not quite, their play style is still stand-still but I -think- they get more abilities than we do which allows them to insta attack more in stance but I'm not positive so yes, machinist would probably be preferred more over a bard still learning the proper rotation for WM if that's the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuyu11
Have you tried swapping though or do you just leave it on? The thing with WM is that you swap, not leave it... like I said, you are losing extra attacks with it completely off all the time as well. Each bard is probably all using different rotations too which would give different numbers.
This new bard play style blows.
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07-10-2015, 04:01 PMLillia
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07-10-2015, 04:09 PMnuyu11I just play this game about 4 month I only have Bard for lvl 60 Job, this is the Job that I play for now, I do many try and error,watch lots of video but yet still not really satisfied with current change. If I not swap that WM on or off my DPS would be worse that that, checking DPS with dummies is different with actual fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
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07-10-2015, 04:13 PMLilliaActual fights also normally have a few phases though, Bismarck included. I was actually inside BEX today and I can 100% say that there are parts in the fight where you can stand still plus if you think you're going to start moving or do start to have to dodge.. safest bet is to turn off WM as soon as you can until there's another period where you're just standing then you can swap around it. I believe WM definitely works best with buffs by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuyu11
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07-10-2015, 04:13 PMVogue
I agree that it is pretty discouraging oh bad Bards new abilities are, true that BLMs have been dealing with cast times all the time, but the difference is that when one of their ability hits, it makes up for any interruption they need to do when dodging things around.
For Bard, missing Iron jaws because an aoe forced you to move, its a dps kill, and we do so little dps as it is, it only gets worse and worse on fights that involve a lot of moving. True we can just turn off wanderer's minuet and go back to bard old style, but this doesn't help much at all, the dps is still pitiful compared to all over damage dealer classes.
Like really, warriors are out dpsing bards, so it is logical for a tank to have crazy high dps, as good as most damage dealing classes (not counting bard or machinist) but it is illogical for bards to have good dps because they are a "support" class.
Our Support abilities aren't even something we use a lot, and if we are thinking of Foe Requiem, Ninja's Trick Attack is much better than foe, they are also able to silence and stun and got binds and heavy aoes. But are Ninjas a support class? no
Please give some love to Bards, we might be needed as a MP/TP regen class, but it starts to feel like we are being throw into this support class role with not a lot of tools to use, and give it some time, but I wouldn't be surprised if people starts rejecting any bard or machinist that joins their party, only because all they are good for is their regen abilities, and really I have done fights were healers are always mid/high MP, and as for TP, seems it is more manageable now. -
07-10-2015, 04:16 PMSpawnie
you do relise your not forced to use WM right?? then you can play bard just the way you want :3 pretty easy solution
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07-10-2015, 04:18 PMnuyu11Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
It's already happen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
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07-10-2015, 04:21 PMThirdChild_ZKIThat's just it. I DO understand it. And have no issue with it, however imperfect it is. But I adapt and learn, thus I'm still having fun. Sorry that my 4 year old understanding grasps it better than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
I also grasp civility well enough to both understand that what you're doing is being the condescending internet tough guy, playing the "I'm just being civil and breaking it down so it's easy for even the simplest to understand" card (a card older than the internet, mind you), AND that it's rather civil to get what you give. So it's your choice; you can play the tough guy, making claims of keeping it civil under the pretense of "if you don't like it, don't look at it/don't reply" or maybe perhaps you can straighten up and ACTUALLY be civil, perhaps offering suggestions on improvement or even methods to play the class despite such "terrible" changes. Your call. You get what you give. -
07-10-2015, 04:28 PMLilliaI've had a warrior today out dps a smn in one of my instances according to someone i know who was with us... good tanks can out dps some dps players of any job period if the player of said class isn't playing at their best. I won't say that the players are bad but maybe they just need improvement or they are learning still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
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07-10-2015, 04:42 PMFateAudax
Someone please gather those aether stones and let us summon our Bard primal (who/whatever it is). Unleash the ultimate Sagittarius Arrow which will engulf Eorzea and bring about the 8th Umbral Era!
Btw, for those non-bard players who is telling us that bow mages are fine. I will not waste my time rebuking you because my signature does the work. -
07-10-2015, 04:59 PMFatshine
The OP is such a dick. I hope WM never changes again just to drink more of your tears.
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07-10-2015, 05:01 PMVogueSo you are telling me we are all bad, you have no problems being top dps ever right? Obviously all the people unhappy at how Bards new abilities are not truly that much of a big improvement for the class, are wrong and have zero reasons to ask for a bit of a boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
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07-10-2015, 05:10 PMnuyu11Maybe we all bad, we are bad Bard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
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07-10-2015, 05:20 PMWavaryenI am just going to take my own advice. You don't understand. What works for you does not work for others. You can't make a argument to save your life. Just because you got use to it, and think it is fine does not mean every one should learn to enjoy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
*sighs* no point in talking with you. I am just going to like I said take my own advice and ignore. You can disagree with me, and I will be fine. At least have enough brains to understand what a subjective argument is. and coming to a thread saying learn to play, Is annoying when talking about fun of the class.
Just because you got use to it does not mean others should learn to play. Just because people do well with it. Does not mean people should learn as well. On the subject of fun. I was talking about myself subjective, and never once judge your views or skills in the matter. I am sure many also have fun with this new style. I question the logic of this change, and i question being called a support dps with the tools we have. -
07-10-2015, 05:33 PMnuyu11We chose to play because it's fun for us, I also hate the fact that we are forced to learn. I pay this game not to learn the sh** that we don't like, when someone doing the thing they like they will give all their got and work for it. That's why in school we have our favourite subject and we got good mark on it, you can't expect student who hate math to have good score on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
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07-10-2015, 05:38 PMVogue
I only want to be a true support with more tools to help the party, or a true dps, this "in between" job is too much "jack of all trades, master of none" and I am not sure how I feel about this, because like someone stated on previous post, Bards do not have a true designation, support or dps? Will Duty Finder parties have the thought "great lets carry this bard that just joined" cross their mind because they would rather have any other dps join instead?
I am not comparing good and bad players, I am comparing good players on every dps class and well warrior, since warrior can flip to dps mode and do as much.
I only hope SE thinks about it and if they want to truly make bard a support, they start giving them useful party buffs and target debuffs. -
07-10-2015, 05:40 PMWavaryenI agree, and also people telling bards they don't have to use it. So bards would have hardly any thing new to use, and when grouping with this community. The slightest thing sets people off in group play. I mean just look at before the fixes came through, how many did not even want a bard or mch.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuyu11
I don't like the combat in this game, and I don't like the classes much. When I at last found a style I enjoyed, it pretty much said ok here is some new toys, but oh got to become a caster to use them. So ya I am a little moody about it. -
07-10-2015, 05:59 PMMisterLucieSuch a ridiculous exaggeration. The cast times are an entire second shorter than the GCD and you still have a few instant procs. WM can even be turned off during heavy movement so you're only suffering a slight DPS loss during fights that would have casters ripping their hair out in frustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
Bards are still easily the most mobile DPS in the game AND retained all of their support options except for their garbage limit break. Excellent support, excellent mobility, and after a few tweaks most likely excellent damage... and yet an unending cascade of bitter tears because of a nearly insignificant 1.5 second cast time. Unbelievable. -
07-10-2015, 06:14 PMWavaryenExaggeration? Please explain how so. Just because it is one second less does not mean my point does not stand. It is a play style change that is not fun. It does not matter if it can be turned off, the points you are making does not counter at all what is being said.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterLucie
It is a caster play style, It feels clunky to me, and it is plain not fun. Yet another person who understands simple logic. Also, the whole bitter tears comment was not really called for, as you failed understand what is being said in the thread. To do the DPS we need to do. We are force to play a style that many don't like.
I question if they really know what the class is, as it is has been called plain dps, to support dps. If it is support dps, why turn the play style to a less mobile caster type, and not give more support skills that add to the flavor of the class?
It is simple questions, and design flaws that is easily seen by myself, and others. -
07-10-2015, 07:07 PMShaneDawnWarrior is op as hell anyways. Our FC WAR out dps' anyone but the greatest of dps players. Heck, even then, we had him out damage (one of the) best bards in the server on Ravana Ex farm while doing a MAIN TANK duty which greatly gimps his ability to dps at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
A dcent dos should never lose to a PLD/DRK, but WAR is a really bad comparison point atm when you see them doing 800-900+ dps during raids. -
07-10-2015, 07:16 PMDreameR7gIt depends on the design of the job if it is an actual design flaw. What do you perceive the Bard job to be? Primarily DPS or Primarily Support?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
In all honesty, I perceive Bard and Mechanist primarily Support jobs with DPS mixed in. With that viewpoint, I can see the design being just fine. However, looking at it as a primary DPS, it would be a design flaw. -
07-10-2015, 07:32 PMLambLichIn all honesty, the "support" thing is a problem, its stupidly hard to balance unless it has its own defined role in a party. Trying make a dps with some support abilities tacked on usually ends in one of two ways either stupid overpowered or weak as hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
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07-10-2015, 07:57 PMDreameR7gActually, that's the perception of the community. That's also actually why Bard was put under the DPS role. They wanted to spread out the support abilities instead of having their own job role because hardly anyone wants to play a job with nothing but support abilities. From what I've seen, Support is a dirty word among communities. A good chunk of people rather to be doing damage because they get the pleasure of "BIG NUMBERS!" It isn't typically hard to balance in its own right. It IS hard to put support abilities in games where the community shuns it, even though support abilities can actually help maximize a party's effective power.Quote:
Originally Posted by LambLich
At the end of the day, that isn't a balance problem. It's a perception problem. -
07-10-2015, 08:01 PMThanMazus
I love all of the "Ugh so many people talking about this, just stop talking about it!" posts. If that many people are upset, maybe there's an issue? Even if people posted all of their complaints about bard in one thread, we'd still have a dozen different "Show your vanity: <race goes here>", "Here is my dissertation on why the new savage alexander which isn't released yet will be too hard/easy", "I'm a tank and I have a lot of bad things to say about DPS players" threads on the front page.
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07-10-2015, 08:02 PMWavaryenI can see your point, but I feel that the tool kit we have as a support job is not enough. We lack options outside of raiding, and if it really is primarily support. We need songs that support such mindset. Songs that can make melee stronger, songs that can give resist with the toughest of fights. Choices to be made with our mana. Would that not be a better support than what we have now?Quote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
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07-10-2015, 08:10 PMDreameR7gWell you have options outside of raiding. They are just specific. TP song for those like me: Melee DPS. That actually can be a huge help. Mage Ballad is self explanatory and Foe's Requiem is also self explanatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
While the options you've listed would make you a better support, it isn't all that you do, of course. Being a Support/DPS in the manner I perceive explains why Bard has what they have pretty well, I believe. It's also why I believe Bard was listed under DPS: To have a Support hybrid, while still labeled under the holy trinity of Tank, DPS and Healer so it won't be so wildly avoided as a job labeled "Support" is. Heavensward's addition to your support firepower also supports my theory with Wanderer's Minuet being a good example, giving you a stance so you can have focus fire power to strengthen your pure DPS at the cost of mobility/support capabilities. -
07-10-2015, 08:13 PMWavaryenQuote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
Ya, but outside of raiding I hardly ever need to use the tp song, I even ask do they need it. Nope.
and I guess I am strange, as a BLM was like..wow you really use foe? He was happy until he pulled aggro lol.
Even MP song outside of raiding hardly gets used. I don't feel like a support dps during that time I am not raiding
. I feel like a gimp mage. -
07-10-2015, 08:16 PMDreameR7gWhich I fully understand. You are actually a hybrid so from a design standpoint, you may feel weak when you don't get to use all of your abilities. That doesn't mean you are actually weak since you are capable of answering most predicaments which plague a party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
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07-10-2015, 08:20 PMWavaryenThat leads to the question, if I hardly get to use that support in that content, should the class be punished with less dps because of it? As in that group, you are not invited for your support, as it is not needed. You are taking a slot for that dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
I hope I am makaing sense. I have been up way to long due to rl pain. So my thoughts are kinda all over the place. -
07-10-2015, 08:22 PMOrbiaus
A DPS should be a DPS. It fills a dmg spot and should be used as such. Having a mix just leaves a class not knowing what it is and leaves the group lacking in dps. It should be one or the other. I'm not even sure why MCH is support because bard has more buffs so wouldn't taking a BRD be more useful than MCH if people do want the support features?
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07-10-2015, 08:25 PMDreameR7gIf you are hardly able to use the support capable of your class, SE needs to design situations where your supporting capabilities (along with your DPS) are better needed. At the moment, Heavensward was just released about 3-4 weeks ago if I'm not mistaken. Naturally, some jobs will have some identity crises due to the expansion of abilities, some buffed and some nerfed. Sadly, Bard is just one of those jobs because they are a hybrid design from 2.0. I would say hang in there, learn your rotations with the new abilities. After all, some of their newer abilities like Wanderer's Minuet and the bursty arrows vert recently got buffed so increase your DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavaryen
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07-10-2015, 08:27 PMDreameR7gBard and Machinist are from the same mold. Neither should be a better pick than the other. The difference between the two *SHOULD* be play style, to give some of the player base an alternative Support DPS other than Bard. I digress as I find the concept of guns more appealing than arrows. Hehe. And while I agree, a pure DPS should fill a DPS slot, at the moment, there are only 3 job roles at the present moment: Tank, Healer and DPS. Maybe if and when they implement a Hybrid role slot will Bard and Machinist be moved. I can only speculate at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbiaus
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07-10-2015, 08:38 PMLambLichThey wanted to spread them out? Really that's why ONE class up until 3.0 had these fabled support abilities that required them to be a bastardized battery with a bow.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
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07-10-2015, 08:46 PMDreameR7gActually, they were the only job to be a full 50/50 Support DPS Hybrid. That is part of their identity at the moment and the heart of their crises is Heavensward made their support side a bit less useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by LambLich
As far as support abilities being spread out: I give you these examples -
Monk - Mantra
Ninja - Goad
Dragoon - Battle Litany
The only difference is Bard is a bit more dedicated in the Support side of things. :) -
07-10-2015, 09:04 PMShaneDawnNinja; Shadewalker, Smoke Screen, Dancing EdgeQuote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
Dragoon; At least Disembowel
The only real significant thing that only Bards/Machinists have that will still warrant them a quaranteed raid slot is the ability to party-wide MP regen. TP is also important for the melees, but that can be solved by having a Ninja in the party. -
07-10-2015, 09:08 PMDreameR7gThose abilities were primarily designed for themselves in mind. If you have duplicate jobs, its a bonus but not mainly intended. You could argue Monk's Dragon Kick the same way but again, intended with Monk first, not party.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneDawn
I do agree on party significance being a problem, especially since it seems like their support capabilities needs a buff somewhere. Otherwise, Bards/Machs will perceive themselves and others will be perceive them as being weak when they could very well not be. -
07-10-2015, 09:08 PMShaneDawn
Also Monk Dragon Kick***
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07-10-2015, 09:14 PMShaneDawnProbably yeah, but for example Disembowel used to be a real gain when paired with a Bard and was what made Dragoon a real contender with MNK/NIN before the expansion as Bard was pretty much a guaranteed slot on any raid team.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreameR7g
I feel like if the only redeeming feature of the said support classes will be the MP regen (and TP regen and maybe Foe's Requiem to a slight extent), the whole classes will feel very underwhelming everywhere else except the hardest raids where mp/tp regen are a real issue. I think that bard/machinist could do with more class synergy perks than just the Foe's Requiem to make them a valid choice in the dps race. -
07-10-2015, 09:18 PMDreameR7gI fully agree with everything you just said. I just think part of the problem is player perception at the moment, believing that bard is meant to be a pure DPS when it really isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneDawn
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07-10-2015, 09:29 PMLewtskie
I just caught some of the Q&A translations right now, and I was sorta appalled at them completely admitting that Warden's Paeon is pretty much just designed as a Raid tool. I know it was expected, but did they really see nothing wrong with just slapping a Raid mechanic in our toolkit and calling it a new ability? Of any kind of new song or skill we could have had; it really takes the piss.
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07-10-2015, 10:16 PMMaero
another pointless thread, could it not have been posted in one of the like 6 other Bard threads... oh wait it was
Seriously maybe the issue is now Bards who cannot learn to adapt to the new playstyle.
And saying that do not care about the dps but bitching about being punished for movement... wow some of you really have not played other classes