Please disable changing Cleric Stance during combat for make healer focus on healing.

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Originally Posted by desufin

Yes. These people that keep asking for Cleric Stance to be removed/nerfed for party play are becoming more and more active with their dumb posts and equally dumb reasonings. If no one calls them out at how dumb it is they'll keep on being dumb and assume they are right when they are incredibly wrong.

I'm not saying Cleric Stance is a must for everyone to use, but what is a must is the option to remain right where it is. No bad healer, dps or tank should dictate how a healer that knows how to use it, to use it. Majority of the threads created by these are rear-pained people that have either had a bad player mess up with Cleric Stance, had someone ask them to use Cleric Stance or got maybe kicked from a [insert farm place] party for not using Cleric Stance and they all assume their precious bad experience is the norm and needs to go. What needs to go are these threads and the equally bad people suggesting this stuff.

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Whole lot of butthurt healers up in this topic. Man, you guys are freakin' ravenous when someone suggests you shouldn't be DPSing. It's like you take more offense to not DPSing than not healing. Seriously- it's an opinion, and if you want to censor someone for having one, stupid or not, you should probably start dying your clothes red. Back off and grab a sandwich or something.

I actually am one of the people who agree with the OP! Or agreed anyway, on and off over time. I don't agree now, though. I do still think Holy's damage is way too high and it needs to be nerfed again, because holy is supposed to be a mitigation tool not a pretty numbers machine, and that healers DPSing is fine, but should be nowhere near the damage of a dedicated DPS class even on dungeon trash. Actually super fine with Aero3 and Stone3 though.

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Originally Posted by Terrini

It wasn't considered for the 2.0 storyline, BUT they have announced that Healers will be expected to DPS in Heavensward! I just wish there wasn't a cool-down on clicking Cleric Stance, and that we can click it while casting other spells.

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Did you even read the interview?

It is *not* expected in HW.

It's funny. People who just want to heal are being demonized for just wanting to heal. Then, should things go bad when they are forced into DDing they are again demonized for not healing enough. DDing is something Healers should be comfortable with, not something they are forced to do. Alexander Hard's (Extreme's?) rewards will just be slightly better (and dyeable) version of what will be available in Alexander Normal, making it entirely optional. The rest of Heavensward will just be business as usual, letting Healers that just want to heal keep doing their thing, and those that have the confidence to DD to do their thing. I, personally, will never ask a Healer to DD, no matter what benefits I may or may not get. So long as noone dies then everything is golden.

Idk why they can't just make DPS abilities on healers spec off MND. That's how it worked on FFXI. It makes the whole process easier.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

There is so much downtime in endgame content so why not throw some DPS in when you can maybe abit of Holy to stun lock trash, instead of standing around like a cabbage waiting for people to get hit.
You don't have to be pulling 300+ Whilst keeping everyone alive just some extra DPS here and there makes runs even faster for you and everyone else.

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Maybe if you have the gear for it.

Some don't.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

It's funny. People who just want to heal are being demonized for just wanting to heal.

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Good players are able to utilize all of their tools to full potential. DPSing when it is safe to, switch back to pur healing when needed. Alos a healer DPSing cuts down on the amount of healing due to the simple fact that suff dies faster or, as in coil, can help push phases to avoid dangerous mechanics. Just like a BRD can DPS and knows when to utilize songs for max effectiveness.

But just because someone cannot utilize the full potential does not mean they should be able to drag everyone else down to their level, they should try to improve.

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Originally Posted by Kemonologist

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9/10, would read again.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Quoted directly from the line you pulled out.

Please don't take away the tools I enjoy using when I do dungeons and raid. Thank you.

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You pointed out what's called "normal spell progression.". That's not " new DPs spells", that's "new ranks to existing spells to account for more levels."

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Maybe if you have the gear for it.

Some don't.

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It's not just about gear. Please reference conversations in Healer forum for reasons why (I don't want to import the entire thread into this already contentious one).

Okay... I guess you don't want heals... cause gonna see alot of healers stuck in cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

A good WHM knows how much they can push and still be good for MP. If the healer is DPSing until their MP runs dry then they are a bad healer. I personally hate seeing a healer just standing around, doing nothing when there is nothing to heal. That is seriously irritating, there will be no healers if healing is reduced to that boredom.

People should learn their Job better.

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This topic is about people expecting healers to dps because of cleric stance. I'd say the very replies in this thread kind of prove the OPs point..

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Whole lot of butthurt healers up in this topic. Man, you guys are freakin' ravenous when someone suggests you shouldn't be DPSing. It's like you take more offense to not DPSing than not healing. Seriously- it's an opinion, and if you want to censor someone for having one, stupid or not, you should probably start dying your clothes red. Back off and grab a sandwich or something.

I actually am one of the people who agree with the OP! Or agreed anyway, on and off over time. I don't agree now, though. I do still think Holy's damage is way too high and it needs to be nerfed again, because holy is supposed to be a mitigation tool not a pretty numbers machine, and that healers DPSing is fine, but should be nowhere near the damage of a dedicated DPS class even on dungeon trash. Actually super fine with Aero3 and Stone3 though.

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Holy is NOT a mitigation tool. If it was it would offer damage reduction in important fights and not trash. It was already nerfed once and DRG and BLM still do more AoE dps than WHM if they know what they are doing. It's perfectly fine as it is. And no one uses Holy as a "pretty numbers" dps machine on a single target unless they are perhaps solo'ing. The MP cost is too high for something silly like that.

And did you not read my post? I'm not saying any healer MUST USE Cleric Stance. Nor am I in any group ever forcing a healer to do so if I see one not using it. I might make a comment of how they spend 90% of a fight doing nothing to my FC because it boggles my mind why someone would wamt to do nothing for 90% of a dungeon in the first place but I don't harass said player for it.

What I AM saying is taht Cleric Stance is and should always remain an option for those that want it, knows how to use it and groups that like their healers to actually be active. It's a world of a difference but you and OP only see it in black/white. That's why OP's suggestion is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

It's funny. People who just want to heal are being demonized for just wanting to heal.

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I never see this, I've solo queued a ton of things for a long time, both as a healer, tank and dps and I never see anyone demonize the healer actively for using or not using Cleric Stance. At most you might get a person asking for the healer to use it but I never see some form of harassment or demonizing over it, these people asking for Cleric Stance nerfs/removal are exaggerating their bad experiences every freaking time.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Okay... I guess you don't want heals... cause gonna see alot of healers stuck in cleric stance.

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Now see, this is why we can't have nice things. "If I can't choose to heal and DPS, I'll just DPS!" What is freaking wrong with you? That's not even your joooooob

I mean yeah I like that you have DPS stuff to do when nobody needs healing and while I have problems with healers doing close to or more DPS than DPS roles it's nice to have the support, but everyone rustling their jimmies over "If you take away cleric stance no one will heal ever because they'll either leave the class or always be in DPS" are freaking insane. Why don't you just roll an actual DPS class if it's that important to you? Geez.

The world's not going to end if you can't do the big numbers. It'll just get more boring. Not a good thing, but not the apocalypse you're insisting will happen.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

It's funny. People who just want to heal are being demonized for just wanting to heal. Then, should things go bad when they are forced into DDing they are again demonized for not healing enough.

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People who just want to do the absolute minimum are demonized, which describes most anti-DPS healers, and I'm frankly okay with that. Healers aren't special snowflakes who get to stand around blatantly doing nothing or sitting on 5k MP "just in case".

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Originally Posted by desufin

Holy is NOT a mitigation tool

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Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Whole lot of butthurt healers up in this topic. Man, you guys are freakin' ravenous when someone suggests you shouldn't be DPSing. It's like you take more offense to not DPSing than not healing. Seriously- it's an opinion, and if you want to censor someone for having one, stupid or not, you should probably start dying your clothes red. Back off and grab a sandwich or something..

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People are also expressing their opinions in their replies --- though some in ruder manner. However, the OP is asking for a skill to be changed to his liking - which steamrolls over the other half of the healer community, who are pro-dpsing, since it makes the DPS gimped in exchange.
I'm not 'butthurt', but you can't expect a change like that just to avoid people.
Both the people who harass healers to DPS/ridicule them, and the healers who want to toss Cleric out for their own convenience are equally selfish, in my opinion >.>

Every single healer went through at least half the conjurer story. Don't be Sylphies.

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Originally Posted by desufin

I never see this, I've solo queued a ton of things for a long time, both as a healer, tank and dps and I never see anyone demonize the healer actively for using or not using Cleric Stance. At most you might get a person asking for the healer to use it but I never see some form of harassment or demonizing over it, these people asking for Cleric Stance nerfs/removal are exaggerating their bad experiences every freaking time.

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Most of the demonizing of Healers not DDing happens on the forums, though I have seen the demonizing of healers when things have gone south because they were trying to DD. Especially when it's a speed-running tank at the lead. After the second wipe said tanks are too prone into flying into tirades about how much the Healer sucks before either "DC'ing" or Leaving (vary rarely Leaving). Being a Healer can be stressful enough without the expectation of DDing, add in that 'requirement' and the Healer population may well see a decline.

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Originally Posted by desufin

Holy is NOT a mitigation tool. If it was it would offer damage reduction in important fights and not trash. It was already nerfed once and DRG and BLM still do more AoE dps than WHM if they know what they are doing. It's perfectly fine as it is. And no one uses Holy as a "pretty numbers" dps machine on a single target unless they are perhaps solo'ing. The MP cost is too high for something silly like that.

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Hi. Yes I read your post, otherwise I wouldn't have commented on it. Holy is a mitigation tool- the primary reason you SHOULD be using holy is for the stunning, because that keeps the tank from being hurt, thus preventing you from spending MP to heal them. It mitigates damage by means of keeping the enemy from attacking. The damage still needs more nerfs in my opinion, because again, healers aren't dedicated DPS roles and shouldn't be near them in terms of damage, even on trash pulls. DPS are in those long queues for a reason, after all. I also didn't state that Cleric Stance should be removed- I even outlined why. Maybe you're not reading my post, instead? I simply stated my opinion- nothing in regards to your own about cleric stance's validity, my quoting your post was primarily to outline how aggressive you're being about the whole thing. This post was better though, so good job!

Most silly idea ever. If a healer can heal and dps that is up to them entirely, and given the fact that i have seen some healers do more dmg then dps... well yeah

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

You pointed out what's called "normal spell progression.". That's not " new DPs spells", that's "new ranks to existing spells to account for more levels."

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This is not true for heavensward. As an actual dps the majority the new abilities are limited use and burst damage, the new abilities are not what you would call normal spell progression, if it was fire 4 would be aoe, not need enokin, and refresh Astral fire. They stated in the live letters that whm was getting new dps spells because it's dps wasn't as strong as it should be, that means that they calculated healer dps into the content, but hey ignore the live letter what does SE know about what they designed anyway? Dps is part of being a healer it is not optional, it is a requirement in ff14. If you don't healer dps you are lazy, not being able to stance because your too busy watching netflix while your dps and tanks are busting their butt is called being selfish, and only think about yourself.

This is utter nonsense. I don't consider a healer bad if he/she doesn't dps. Dpsing while healing is an added bonus. I'll dps when/if I choose to but feeling like you have some kind of right to demand that I do is a surefire way of guaranteeing that I won't.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Yes it is.

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No it isn't. Come back to me when Stun doesn't have diminishing returns and bosses (especially Coil bosses) can be stunned. THEN you can argue that Holy is a mitigation tool. Until then it is as much of a mitigation tool as regular DPS is, which yes it is a mitigation tool as the faster you kill something the less damage you take, but you DON'T compare DPS to actual mitigation tools like that. You just don't.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

People who just want to do the absolute minimum are demonized, which describes most anti-DPS healers, and I'm frankly okay with that. Healers aren't special snowflakes who get to stand around blatantly doing nothing or sitting on 5k MP "just in case".

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My biggest problem honestly with trying is target switching.

I don't hard target players in other games for healing, I heal exclusively with mouse over macros with the boss targeted or through implied targeting through said boss. I'm used to keeping debuffs up as well.

The macro system sucks and the UI sucks. Maybe HW and modding will fix it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

People who just want to do the absolute minimum are demonized, which describes most anti-DPS healers, and I'm frankly okay with that. Healers aren't special snowflakes who get to stand around blatantly doing nothing or sitting on 5k MP "just in case".

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This is basically it. Tank is at full HP. WHM has regen up and Selene is doing whatever she's doing. What are you going to do? Stand there and twiddle your thumbs until you wait for something to happen? No, you pop cleric stance, throw a few DoTs down and then come out of it when people need healing. Hell, Lustrate still works in cleric. Helping with the DPS helps the fight go faster and is fun. If I recall, our SCH DPS'd a little in our Turn 13 Kill back in the day and it really helped.

The title of this thread just makes me face-palm.

I love stance dancing, but I do agree with Terrini on the fact that there shouldn't be a cd when you switch into Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by desufin

No it isn't. Come back to me when Stun doesn't have diminishing returns and bosses (especially Coil bosses) can be stunned. THEN you can argue that Holy is a mitigation tool. Until then it is as much of a mitigation tool as regular DPS is, which yes it is a mitigation tool as the faster you kill something the less damage you take, but you DON'T compare DPS to actual mitigation tools like that. You just don't.

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Holy would be instant and non-spammable as a mitigation tool. As it is, it's a dps skill that you can use as short CC.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Snip!

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Yeah, and communication rocks! I'm not saying everyone is super aggressive about their opinions. More than is necessary or wise certainly, but not all. And hey, the OP has an opinion- even if it's kind of uninformed and can be implemented better, I get where he's coming from. I mean, I agreed with him myself at a few points in my play time, so I can sort of relate. I mean, I don't agree now, of course, but I don't have to go insulting dudes to express my stance(hah!) on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

This is not true for heavensward. As an actual dps the majority the new abilities are limited use and burst damage, the new abilities are not what you would call normal spell progression, if it was fire 4 would be aoe, not need enokin, and refresh Astral fire. They stated in the live letters that whm was getting new dps spells because it's dps wasn't as strong as it should be, that means that they calculated healer dps into the content, but hey ignore the live letter what does SE know about what they designed anyway? Dps is part of being a healer it is not optional, it is a requirement in ff14. If you don't healer dps you are lazy, not being able to stance because your too busy watching netflix while your dps and tanks are busting their butt is called being selfish, and only think about yourself.

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You didn't read the interview where they explicitly don't count healer DPS either.

Ultimately, I disagree with the OP's sentiment to disable the use of Cleric Stance in dungeons. As has already been pointed out, it would really only serve to restrict those skilled enough to use it well for something that's more or less the fault of over angsty players who want to see min/max in random DF pugs (a min/maxing DF PUG is sort of an oxymoron of sorts), not the system itself.

But it's also silly to expect min/maxing in a DF PUG; the teamwork in a DF PUG is about bringing down the content, period. If you want every player to be on the same page about approaching the content with the same strategy every time, you're not going to get that by being impatient and throwing yourself into a randomized group. You might luck out with willing and skilled participants from time to time, but you'll inevitably hit a brick wall from time to time as well if you shuffle your group every time.

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Originally Posted by desufin

No it isn't. Come back to me when Stun doesn't have diminishing returns and bosses (especially Coil bosses) can be stunned. THEN you can argue that Holy is a mitigation tool. Until then it is as much of a mitigation tool as regular DPS is, which yes it is a mitigation tool as the faster you kill something the less damage you take, but you DON'T compare DPS to actual mitigation tools like that. You just don't.

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Haha. I could write a book on cc and its potential tactical uses at this point, I think.

Any cc, even with diminishing returns counts as damage mitigation. This is ofcourse provided that it does not cc everyone (allies included).
In the case of dungeons or such, mobs will typically not be alive for a long time.
This greatly increases the effectiveness of holy's damage mitigation, which is further increased by its damage done. (due to mobs dying even faster)


Does that clarify it for you, young one?

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Originally Posted by KhemSanjari

This is basically it. Tank is at full HP. WHM has regen up and Selene is doing whatever she's doing. What are you going to do? Stand there and twiddle your thumbs until you wait for something to happen? No, you pop cleric stance, throw a few DoTs down and then come out of it when people need healing. Hell, Lustrate still works in cleric. Helping with the DPS helps the fight go faster and is fun. If I recall, our SCH DPS'd a little in our Turn 13 Kill back in the day and it really helped.

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Toss dots without cleric because cleric is clunky and I hate it?

Honestly think if y'all want to DPS so bad, advocate base damage increase and get rid of cleric.

First of all, having no Cleric Stance does not completely remove a healer's ability to DPS. It only makes the spells do less damage. I'm getting the feeling here that far too many people are equating the disabling of Cleric Stance with the complete inability to deal damage at all.

That being said, the only viable reason I can think of for disabling it in party content is to prevent Healer DPS from breaking raids in two in the way Scholars pretty much single handedly cleared Final Coil in the first week. However, balancing the entire game against the 1% who would use Cleric Stance to achieve this is generally not a good decision, as many discussions on this subject have concluded.

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Originally Posted by desufin

No it isn't. Come back to me when Stun doesn't have diminishing returns and bosses (especially Coil bosses) can be stunned. THEN you can argue that Holy is a mitigation tool. Until then it is as much of a mitigation tool as regular DPS is, which yes it is a mitigation tool as the faster you kill something the less damage you take, but you DON'T compare DPS to actual mitigation tools like that. You just don't.

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Regular dps doesn't give an instant effect in regards to mitigating damage. Holy does on anything that isn't immune to stun. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

This topic is about people expecting healers to dps because of cleric stance. I'd say the very replies in this thread kind of prove the OPs point..

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Sorry what? People are telling the TC that disabling cleric stance would limit healer's potential on their parties. I don't want SE limiting my job, if something, I'd love more tools to make the skill ceiling even greater to be able to bring even more. That has nothing to do with me expecting other healers to DPS. Each person decides how ambitious they want to be with the roles and jobs they play in this game, I have nothing against people playing casually and I have nothing against people striving to bring the 100% out of their jobs.

The only point that has been proven here is that the TC is against the latter, not the other way around buddy.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Haha. I could write a book on cc and its potential tactical uses at this point, I think.

Any cc, even with diminishing returns counts as damage mitigation. This is ofcourse provided that it does not cc everyone (allies included).
In the case of dungeons or such, mobs will typically not be alive for a long time.
This greatly increases the effectiveness of holy's damage mitigation, which is further increased by its damage done. (due to mobs dying even faster)


Does that clarify it for you, young one?

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Classy, calling me a kid. Read the post again and again til you learn why Holy is NOT a mitigation tool. CC is only good as mitigation when it works Holy is as good at damage mitigation on things that ACTUALLY MATTERS as Sleep/Repose, aka worthless. And Flare is not a mitigation tool yet its effect is basically the same as Holy (with 2-4times the pretty numbers). Learn mechanics before you continue your clueless parade.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

Regular dps doesn't give an instant effect in regards to mitigating damage. Holy does on anything that isn't immune to stun. Try again.

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And anything worth mitigating damage from is immune to Stun. Thus Holy is not a mitigation tool.

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Originally Posted by desufin

No it isn't. Come back to me when Stun doesn't have diminishing returns and bosses (especially Coil bosses) can be stunned. THEN you can argue that Holy is a mitigation tool. Until then it is as much of a mitigation tool as regular DPS is, which yes it is a mitigation tool as the faster you kill something the less damage you take, but you DON'T compare DPS to actual mitigation tools like that. You just don't.

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Depends on the situation, but holy is MOST DEFINITELY a mitigation tool if used properly. Expert roulette for example, on trash pulls I can pop divine seal, give a cure 2 (from the initial pull damage) and regen, then cleric stance + spam holy and the tank takes literally no damage from all the mobs being stun locked + having a powerful regen on them. If that is not mitigation, then maybe we should review what mitigation means: "the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something".

Can I get a link to confirm Healer dps being taken into account for Heavensword? I'm all for Healers contributing to the groups DPS, but I'm ABSOLUTELY against it being mandatory.

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Originally Posted by desufin

Holy is NOT a mitigation tool. CC is only good as mitigation when it works Holy is as good at damage mitigation on things that ACTUALLY MATTERS as Sleep/Repose, aka worthless. And Flare is not a mitigation tool yet its effect is basically the same as Holy (with 2-4times the pretty numbers). Learn mechanics before you continue your clueless parade. And anything worth mitigating damage from is immune to Stun. Thus Holy is not a mitigation tool.

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"Worth", much like your opinions, is a subjective thing that differs from person to person. Therefore it's not an accurate tool to judge the validity of a statement.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

"Worth", much like your opinions, is a subjective thing that differs from person to person. Therefore it's not an accurate tool to judge the validity of a statement.

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Okay so let me get this clear. How's that stunned Bahamut Prime or slept Twintania or Pacified Nael working out for you? Oh wait that's right, they are immune. This not an opinion, it's a freaking fact.