Square, if youre going to ban Gil buyers, give them a PERMANENT ban

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

I'm willing to bet that most people that are buying gil right now would continue to buy it even if the punishment was as severe as the police coming to their house and physically arresting them.

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And that's fine. Once they incur that punishment, they're off our backs. Good riddance.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

82 buyers got a temp ban. And that's just a 2-week period.

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Guaranteed a lot more than 82 people bought gil over those 2 weeks. Far more are getting away than are being caught. If only 82 people were buying gil, there wouldn't be enough money to sustain RMT.

Gil sellers don't just have a single account/character on each server, sitting on a mountain of gil, just waiting to be caught. Gil sellers have multiple accounts, and create new characters across those accounts, with gil spread out across them. Sometimes gil gets filtered from 4-5 characters down to 1 single character to make the trade. Sometimes they delete that character right after. They are pretty good at evading detection. This makes determining buyers with certainty that much harder. You'd have to hire full-time staff just to monitor the economy of each server. It's just not realistic.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

When gilbuyers are banned, potential gilbuyers afraid to buy, gilsellsers will leave, and all the ad spam will disappear like in the JP servers. Customer satisfaction will in fact improve. That's the whole point!

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Actually... that's NOT why RMT have all but abandon the Japanese servers. The Japanese players hate RMT even more than we do and, quite frankly, avoided buying gil from the start. Period. They don't care if it could give them a leg-up on other players because that's not how Japanese players think. Most US players, though... do. They look for the easiest way to get ahead and what's easier than just paying someone to give them gil. And Square IS permanently banning sellers and buyers alike, they just don't publicly shame either. When you can't relate to something you often can't see it ever happening to you, so people keep buying gil thinking Square won't catch them.

Will shaming people who buy gil have an impact on buyers... maybe, but it'd also introduce more toxicity into a community that I think has too much as it is. And Square likely thinks the same with how they haven't mentioned even one name in their counts of banned accounts.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

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You must realise that RMTs lose money with every ad spam account? Those get banned. They can only afford to keep doing it if the profits outweigh losses. There are lots of RMT sites out there, if they don't advertise, no one will even know they exist. They also need to keep up with the competition by updating their prices all the time and informing players about it. All this cost money (in the form of banned accounts), so they only do it if it results in more gilbuying.

Ummm... so if one gilbuyer gets banned, his other 7 static members will quit? Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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Yeah I totally agree with you. JP servers never had an RMT problem because of their community. I'm just pointing out that when there is no demand for RMT like in JP servers, then RMT will be minimal, and ad spam will disappear.

SE does not need to shame anyone! They just need to let everyone know that they are actively targeting gilbuyers with severe punishment. That is enough to deter those who take their characters seriously.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Actually, people usually don't repeat an errant behavior after a temporary ban.

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Nope.. Temp bans are easy to work around.
Make a new account, costs like $25, when you're buying hundreds of dollars worth of gil, I'm sure that doesn't really matter too much. Then get the temp ban slap, transfer over to main account.

Point is.. Perma ban = money gone instantly
Temp ban = money can be kept

Of course, all of that depends on the circumstances, but considering that SE doesn't use any instaban mechanics (at least none that I heard of) temp ban allows a lot of time to move the money around to its final destination, sacrificing a fresh account is something RMT folks do plenty of anyway.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

SE does not need to shame anyone! They just need to let everyone know that they are actively targeting gilbuyers with severe punishment. That is enough to deter those who take their characters seriously.

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But that's just it, Square does let everyone know that they are banning players and erasing gil. Every few months they put out reports on how many accounts they've banned and how much gil they reclaimed. But that's it, it's just numbers. What's so scary about that? "Oh, it was probably just some stupid kid borrowing mom's Discover card." Could never be someone smart enough to know better. This is how shaming would put a real dent in RMT clients, by showing who exactly is buying gil. Giving a 'face' to the numbers. Though I can garauntee most of the time it wouldn't be 'some stupid kid'.

SE does not need to prove you bought gil to ban you. By agreeing to the ToS, you agree that your service may be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

But that's just it, Square does let everyone know that they are banning players and erasing gil. Every few months they put out reports on how many accounts they've banned and how much gil they reclaimed. But that's it, it's just numbers. What's so scary about that? "Oh, it was probably just some stupid kid borrowing mom's Discover card." Could never be someone smart enough to know better. This is how shaming would put a real dent in RMT clients, by showing who exactly is buying gil. Giving a 'face' to the numbers. Though I can garauntee most of the time it wouldn't be 'some stupid kid'.

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The reports have been very vague. 'Participating in RMT activity''. Does that mean gilbuying? Gilselling? Everyone comes up with their own conclusions. And the numbers are small, and the punishment weak. 82 players total? When you realise how many servers there are, you'll understand why I call it a small number. Temp bans won't scare other gilbuyers. It just tells them that if they get caught, they will still be back after the temp ban. It's the perma-bans that make people stop and think.

I don't think naming and shaming does anything. They can just do a name-change, or change servers.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

SE does not need to prove you bought gil to ban you. By agreeing to the ToS, you agree that your service may be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason.

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While true, we are paying customers. Every time they ban someone, they are cutting off a revenue stream. They aren't going to do that without proof.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

So what if I don't like you in game? I just have to spend $50 on gil twice and you disappear?

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I dunno about you, but if I found a mail with millions of gil from a garbage name I'd send in a ticket.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Gil is easy to make in this game, why buy it?

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simple answer = laziness..

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Gil is easy to make in this game, why buy it?

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part of what makes earning gil so easy in this game is because the buyers are buying our overpriced goods because they can. a vicious cycle.

In the long run buyers affect the price of goods, this severely hurts the new players that are trying to make it big by eating the initial sacrificial fees of leveling up and grinding the craft/gatherer/geartofarmfaster etc.

Of course this strictly speaks from a dol/doh/mob farming pov.

I'd like to believe that these temporary bans that SE doles out for some cases of RMT (instead of perma-ban) are because;

The buyer didn't buy much and wasn't a frequent RMT customer.

or

The account has been deemed "stolen" because of the sudden shift of account activity. Going from causal player; talking in fc, chating with friends. To RMT mule; transporting gil across accounts, converting in-game assets to gil, and giving gil to buyers. Account is temp-banned until customer sorts things out with SE.

But it's all speculation, since SE doesn't tell us the specifics why these accounts were banned, other than it was temporary, and that it is RMT related.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

fruit fly signature

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I... seriously just squashed your signature gif.. :(

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Originally Posted by Radkat

Indeed, when gilbuyers are banned, and potential gilbuyers too afraid to buy, then the RMT issue will truly be resolved.

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Not even close.

People are stupid. There are also plenty of police in this world, yet people still rob gas stations. Just because one buyer is banned, doesn't mean Joe Newbie won't buy gil because of it. He thinks he is slick and won't get caught. Thus the cycle continues. People underestimate the power of stupidity.

Why run circles chasing the stupid people buying it when you can spend those resources cutting off the source? Why catch the guy buying 2 mil when you can hit the guy with 80?

Resources are limited, they only have so many people and so much cash. Why throw them at the small fish when you have a shot at the big one?

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Originally Posted by Radkat

I don't think naming and shaming does anything. They can just do a name-change, or change servers.

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On the contrary, I think it does quite a bit. Yes, you can change servers and change your name, but you can't change the reputation it gives you. Those who already know you may frown upon those activities, and labeling players makes them visible, a focus. They do what they do because they think it's invisible, that no one can see it. Make it visible, and they're vulnerable and far less likely to repeat the activity.

If they truly wanted to name and shame they could force players to receive a unique icon next to their name. Like the leaf of new players, it could have a skull and crossbones signifying that the player is a gilbuyer. Transfers and name changes wouldn't do a thing to get rid of that, and it would be visible to all. It doesn't need to be permanent. I'd say a month is more than long enough to teach the buyer a lesson or two.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

So one scenario has 7 people quitting (static-sized group of friends) and one being perma-banned for a total of 8 people not giving SE money.
The other scenario has 1 person temp-banned and 7 other people not willing to risk buying gil, for a total of 8 people not buying gil but still giving SE money.

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From my personal experience, my first static, 1 person was suspended because of "participation in RMT" and everyone pretty much quit on the spot. I took a longer break myself.
If this is not exceptional behaviour then you can understand why SE would hesitate to ban people permanently or maybe they are doing it and we just don't know about it. Like a 2-3 strike rule?

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

part of what makes earning gil so easy in this game is because the buyers are buying our overpriced goods because they can. a vicious cycle.

In the long run buyers affect the price of goods, this severely hurts the new players that are trying to make it big by eating the initial sacrificial fees of leveling up and grinding the craft/gatherer/geartofarmfaster etc.

Of course this strictly speaks from a dol/doh/mob farming pov.

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It also hurts more advanced players as well.

The other day I went to buy some Vit IV materia for platinum slaying accessories. It seems a certian someone my server bought a boatload of gil. The price had jumped from 200K all the way to 899K, since this person had bought everything, regardless ofnthe cost. The same went for savage aim and might. Won't be doing those acc anytime soon I think.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

It also hurts more advanced players as well.

The other day I went to buy some Vit IV materia for platinum slaying accessories. It seems a certian someone my server bought a boatload of gil. The price had jumped from 200K all the way to 899K, since this person had bought everything, regardless ofnthe cost. The same went for savage aim and might. Won't be doing those acc anytime soon I think.

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It looks suspicious, but that doesn't necessarily mean they bought gil. Some players literally have hundreds of millions of gil earned purely through hard work and working the marketboard.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

It looks suspicious, but that doesn't necessarily mean they bought gil. Some players literally have hundreds of millions of gil earned purely through hard work and working the marketboard.

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exactly this// its really not that hard to make gil in ff14 with a tiny bit of effort.. always laugh when some1 states players that brought a house by themselves are automatically gil buyers/bots lol

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Originally Posted by Radkat

Indeed, when gilbuyers are banned, and potential gilbuyers too afraid to buy, then the RMT issue will truly be resolved.

But will SE do it? Given how much they love subscription money? They seem to like the money more than the game.

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During the beginning of RMT issues on Everquest, Sony started banning both parties. Permanently. They even went after EBay to get them to stop allowing accounts and other Everquest items to be sold. It didn't stop the RMT. RMT will always be there, people will still buy gil/gold/platinum (whatever the currency is) because they will think they can't be caught. There is only one true way to stop RMT 100% in a game (at least one that involves game currency) and that's to remove trading, completely. It still won't get rid of RMT totally, they will still sell accounts, but it would be so miniscule that no one would notice. However, removing trading would destroy this game and many others that have open economies.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

During the beginning of RMT issues on Everquest, Sony started banning both parties. Permanently. They even went after EBay to get them to stop allowing accounts and other Everquest items to be sold. It didn't stop the RMT. RMT will always be there, people will still buy gil/gold/platinum (whatever the currency is) because they will think they can't be caught. There is only one true way to stop RMT 100% in a game (at least one that involves game currency) and that's to remove trading, completely. It still won't get rid of RMT totally, they will still sell accounts, but it would be so miniscule that no one would notice. However, removing trading would destroy this game and many others that have open economies.

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Exactly. People fail to realize that RMT will exist either way unless the game takes away trading or a market. At that point it isn't even an MMO.

So, while it sucks, you have to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

It also hurts more advanced players as well.

The other day I went to buy some Vit IV materia for platinum slaying accessories. It seems a certian someone my server bought a boatload of gil. The price had jumped from 200K all the way to 899K, since this person had bought everything, regardless ofnthe cost. The same went for savage aim and might. Won't be doing those acc anytime soon I think.

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Ahh I knew the name looked familiar on MB..
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ate-Night-fc-s

This guy.

He's in ICE9, Tetra will just throw millions here and there randomly, I'm not saying that's what he must've done, but that could be the source of the gil since they're on the same FC.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The Japanese players hate RMT even more than we do and, quite frankly, avoided buying gil from the start. Period. They don't care if it could give them a leg-up on other players because that's not how Japanese players think.

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Positive stereotyping is still stereotyping. Japanese people are still people, and that means that some of them are better players than others, some of them are less patient than others, some of them are less honest than others. There are Japanese gilbuyers, I guarantee it. They aren't some pack of hive-mind aliens with perfect societal harmony. They are human beings, just like you and me. When you read Japanese literature or watch Japanese television shows or movies, the characters and their motivations are all quite relateable to people outside of their culture. Japanese people don't think as differently from people from other cultures as some folks like to insist. They have plenty of jerks, glory hounds, and trolls to go around, just as other cultures do.

I don't know whether it's actually true that JP servers have less RMT spam than other servers, or whether it's a "grass is greener" thing and people only percieve it to be so, but even if it IS true, I don't think the reasons for it have anything to do with the stereotype of Japanese putting group before self. In fact, even if you buy into the whole "group before self" thing, that's all the more reason to buy gil - if you're failing to properly support your group, it's your obligation to shell out extra money to fix yourself up; not for your own personal glory, but for the good of the group.

There's a tendency among players to idealize Japanese players. It's not healthy, and it's also not accurate.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

There are Japanese gilbuyers, I guarantee it. They aren't some pack of hive-mind aliens with perfect societal harmony. They are human beings, just like you and me.

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As someone with an alt on a JP server, I'm sure you're 100% correct. If there weren't gilbuyers on Titan, I wouldn't see RMT teleporting around and cheating their way through crap... but I see the level 50 THM bots every day.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I don't know whether it's actually true that JP servers have less RMT spam than other servers...

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On Titan, I have never received a single RMT spam tell or seen a shout. I tend to play there 2-3 days a week and I'm a 50 WHM so it's not like I haven't spent any significant time on that server. The situation is far different on Hyperion. Titan is a really small server in comparison though. Even during busy times, it's a fraction of Hyperion's playerbase. Maybe they aren't active there because there isn't a large population to target.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Positive stereotyping is still stereotyping. "the stereotype of Japanese putting group before self."

There's a tendency among players to idealize Japanese players. It's not healthy, and it's also not accurate.

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Can get behind this from my experiences too. While I will say a lot of instances (Crystal Tower raids especially) are far, far, far smoother to play through.... some JPs will roll Need on armor for their retainers even if they themselves are decked out in full i130 with i135 max relic... even when you're sitting there in i70 armor trying to improve yourself. It's not a perfect world anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

The other day I went to buy some Vit IV materia for platinum slaying accessories. It seems a certian someone my server bought a boatload of gil. The price had jumped from 200K all the way to 899K, since this person had bought everything, regardless ofnthe cost. The same went for savage aim and might. Won't be doing those acc anytime soon I think.

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So... just because they bought some materia, they must have bought gil?

That accusation is completely unfounded.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

exactly this// its really not that hard to make gil in ff14 with a tiny bit of effort.. always laugh when some1 states players that brought a house by themselves are automatically gil buyers/bots lol

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I actually find it pretty offensive. 'Since I don't know how to do it, anyone who does must buy their gil.'

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. News flash, people: some players are good at the market.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

Banned guil sellers will buy the game again if they make money, banned guill buyers may not. It's a simple business decision.

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and what about legit players that quit because RMT? if u keep Gil buyers and drive away players that dont buy u are just digging you own grave.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

So... just because they bought some materia, they must have bought gil?

That accusation is completely unfounded.

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lol that seems to be the general consensus from people who can't afford things. I don't think they realize how often people with gil buy highly sought after items, like materia, in order to relist them at higher prices. I know if somebody undercuts my items by a certain amount I usually buy it and relist it at my own price, it's really the only way you can avoid undercutters to some degree. I've made a few bad buys that way but for the most part it's only made me wealthier.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

and what about legit players that quit because RMT? if u keep Gil buyers and drive away players that dont buy u are just digging you own grave.

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I doubt there are many who would quit, it's a mild annoyance at best.

Honestly there just needs to be either 1) more restrictive ways for players to block/filter RMT spam messages or 2) more ways for players to effectively report and auto-temp-ban RMT spam.

Regardless of whether or not people get perma-banned for buying gil will not stop RMT. They will spam message if sales are low, they will spam message if sales are high, they will spam messages because they can.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Honestly there just needs to be either 1) more restrictive ways for players to block/filter RMT spam messages or 2) more ways for players to effectively report and auto-temp-ban RMT spam.

Regardless of whether or not people get perma-banned for buying gil will not stop RMT. They will spam message if sales are low, they will spam message if sales are high, they will spam messages because they can.

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Pretty much. Gil sellers don't care if a buyer gets perma-banned. They already have what they're after and there's always more people that will buy. Honestly, a lot of the buyers that I've run into (mostly in other games) are newer players that are ignorant of the fact that it's against the rules. You'd be surprised how many people don't review the terms of use or read the forums. It's not an excuse, but it is a reasonable explanation.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Pretty much. Gil sellers don't care if a buyer gets perma-banned. They already have what they're after and there's always more people that will buy. Honestly, a lot of the buyers that I've run into (mostly in other games) are newer players that are ignorant of the fact that it's against the rules. You'd be surprised how many people don't review the terms of use or read the forums. It's not an excuse, but it is a reasonable explanation.

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/\ This reminds of that that \/

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/382785...-click-decline

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

What makes you so sure they even hand out temp bans to buyers? I don't think you'll ever see them ban buyers no matter how much you complain on the forums.

Fact is that they have no evidence to ban the buyers, they simply receive a large sum of gil. People could just claim ignorance and you would have no proof that they actually paid any money for it.

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Trades and interactions are rather easily trackable. If they have trades/interactions with accounts either banned, or known to be (still waiting to ban) for being RMT gil sellers, that's plausible cause for issuing a ban to the person as well.

I'll go ahead and say the unpopular thing...

Everyone keeps saying "well a lot of people are going to start quitting if nothing is done about this!!!" Really? Who? And why haven't they left already? This isn't a new problem. If you're one of these people, why are you still here? Why haven't you marched off out of principle yet?

I think the number of people who are actually so upset over RMT that they'd quit the game is minuscule. In all likelihood, there are more gil buyers than there are people who would go through with quitting. SE would probably lose more money banning gil buyers, than they would just letting the people who can't take it leave.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

I think the number of people who are actually so upset over RMT that they'd quit the game is minuscule. In all likelihood, there are more gil buyers than there are people who would go through with quitting. SE would probably lose more money banning gil buyers, than they would just letting the people who can't take it leave.

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Guess that means SE endorses RMT.

Just because they tolerate it to a degree doesn't mean they endorse it...man the world wants to be so black and white when its not ever the case.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

I'll go ahead and say the unpopular thing...

Everyone keeps saying "well a lot of people are going to start quitting if nothing is done about this!!!" Really? Who? And why haven't they left already? This isn't a new problem. If you're one of these people, why are you still here? Why haven't you marched off out of principle yet?

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I could be wrong, but can you post on the forums without an active account? Those that quit...aren't going to be able to post on these threads to tell us that's why, if so.

(And the odd "I'm quitting and this is why!" threads tend to rapidly devolve into "No one cares, go quit, can I have your stuff" so I'm sure it's discouraging to think about making a thread to announce that you are quitting for RMT reasons)

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Gil is easy to make in this game, why buy it?

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Because some people are both lazy and stupid.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

Banned guil sellers will buy the game again if they make money, banned guill buyers may not. It's a simple business decision.

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Banned gil sellers don't buy the game to begin with. They steal accounts.

While giving permanent bans to gil buyers is something that I am all for (sure, it sounds harsh for first time offenders), but it may be difficult for them to discern if that person with the RMT gil bought it or got it from someone who did buy the gil.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Gil is easy to make in this game, why buy it?

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People who buy gil are too lazy to put a Lalafellen-sized amount of effort into making gil the legitimate way.