Has it always been like this or...?

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

It was a lot better than AK pre-nerf and didn't take much longer than WP to speed run when people only had i70-90 gear, especially if you were in a pre-formed party who used cannons effectively.

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Except that AK and WP also drop gear. Which means you don't need as much DL gear to defeat the content you're gearing up for. And better than AK before which nerf?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Only, not really. Don't think CM or Prae is faster than speedrunning any of the experts, which would also give you Poetics.

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Some people like to do all of their duty roulettes in order to add variety to what they're doing.

Also, you get 140 soldiery from the roulette and it generally takes 15-20 minutes max because people are so over geared. If soldiery is what you're after it's just as fast as running an expert a lot of the time which only gives you 100 and you're less likely to get a slow group. The only option that can sometimes be significantly faster is farming hard mode primals for first time bonuses and that's not a sure thing.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except that AK and WP also drop gear. Which means you don't need as much DL gear to defeat the content you're gearing up for. And better than AK before which nerf?

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AK and WP both dropped low ilvl gear which was essentially useless given that DL was i70. They nerfed the original AK significantly by making the demon wall easier (removed adds) and by removing quite a bit of the trash. The trash and lower average ilvl across the playerbase is what made the original AK slower, even when speed running it. Most DF groups would take 30+ minutes to complete AK and it rewarded less philosophy than CM did. I'm not sure why you're asking which AK since there was only one AK at launch.

There were really only 2 viable options for fast philo at launch and they were WP and CM.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except that AK and WP also drop gear. Which means you don't need as much DL gear to defeat the content you're gearing up for. And better than AK before which nerf?

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AK was nerfed by having fewer mobs (the few right after the Demon Wall before the first Succubus were some I know off-hand), and the Gnat adds were removed from the Demon Wall fight. It made the place significantly easier, but before that, the two main scenario dungeons were the safest way to get philo tomes.

Apparently this is quite the hotly contested topic. I'm glad to find so many people who support my feelings in this (and I even understand those who feel differently a little better). My faith has been renewed somewhat, and I will try out each of your suggestions when I retry the second dungeon tonight. Maybe I'll even redo the first one so I can try and participate in the boss fights.

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

Apparently this is quite the hotly contested topic. I'm glad to find so many people who support my feelings in this (and I even understand those who feel differently a little better). My faith has been renewed somewhat, and I will try out each of your suggestions when I retry the second dungeon tonight. Maybe I'll even redo the first one so I can try and participate in the boss fights.

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Oooohhhh yes this is a hotly contested topic. It's been this way since... I signed up for this forum, lol. There's quite a few other hot topics around here too. Expect said threads to burst up to like... 10 pages in a single day (perhaps 2) if they're brought up. :p

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

Apparently this is quite the hotly contested topic. I'm glad to find so many people who support my feelings in this (and I even understand those who feel differently a little better). My faith has been renewed somewhat, and I will try out each of your suggestions when I retry the second dungeon tonight. Maybe I'll even redo the first one so I can try and participate in the boss fights.

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The main thing to take from this is that SE learned from their mistake and stopped adding long cutscenes to the middle of dungeons so you won't have to worry about it being a continuing trend moving forward. Don't let this small handful of story dungeons sway you away from this fantastic game, there is lots of fun to be had.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

AK and WP both dropped low ilvl gear which was essentially useless given that DL was i70. They nerfed the original AK significantly by making the demon wall easier (removed adds) and by removing quite a bit of the trash. The trash and lower average ilvl across the playerbase is what made the original AK slower, even when speed running it. Most DF groups would take 30+ minutes to complete AK and it rewarded less philosophy than CM did. I'm not sure why you're asking which AK since there was only one AK at launch.

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Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the way to speedrun AK at launch was to sac pull. Which means that the number of mobs didn't really matter beyond whether the tank could make it to the boss room. And I'm not talking about DF speedruns. Because if you really want a lot of tomes fast, the solution has always been to get a group and farm so that you don't have to wait on queues. I wasn't asking which AK, by the way, I was asking which nerf. Since they've alternately nerfed the difficulty and nerfed the ability to speedrun. Also, AK gear was only "useless" in the same way that i120 is currently "useless." It would get you pretty much anywhere you needed to go up until maybe T4 (and maybe even then, I don't know).

As to the rest of your point, sure, if you only need a few hundred duty roulette is the way to go. If you need, say, a few thousand, you've always been better off farming a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Bad things.

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Please stop queuing for the storyline. Just stop. If you aren't going to take the time to deal with the CS/newbies.
STOP doing it. We all know it has long Cs's...Save yourself the time and friggin' DON'T QUEUE FOR THEM. Very simple!
This has been a problem since release...I hope SE doesn't add something like this anymore though because if people
are getting harassed to death and beyond and kicked because of them watching a CS and nothing can really be done then it's not worth it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Please stop queuing for the storyline. Just stop. If you aren't going to take the time to deal with the CS/newbies.
STOP doing it. We all know it has long Cs's...Save yourself the time and friggin' DON'T QUEUE FOR THEM. Very simple!
This has been a problem since release...I hope SE doesn't add something like this anymore though because if people
are getting harassed to death and beyond and kicked because of them watching a CS and nothing can really be done then it's not worth it anymore.

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The same argument could be made against new people using a player roulette and expecting that the majority would cater to them And harassing the majority even though they are in the right...

There are demons on both sides of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The same argument could be made against new people using a player roulette and expecting that the majority would cater to them.

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Except that the new people aren't using the roulette. They're queuing for that specific dungeon. You know, to finish their story.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except that the new people aren't using the roulette. They're queuing for that specific dungeon. You know, to finish their story.

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DF = player roulette =/= duty roulette. You get fast access to the dungeon BECAUSE repeat players are joining in DF, don't kid yourself thinking otherwise.

The roulette that is 'random players joining' will always determine who is part of the majority, and ultimately what vote decides how the party will progress.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

player roulette =/= duty roulette. You get fast access to the dungeon BECAUSE repeat players are joining, don't kid yourself thinking otherwise.

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So, just so we're clear, "player roulette" is what everyone else calls "duty finder"? You can't just come up with random terms just to correct people when they think you're saying something you're not.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So, just so we're clear, "player roulette" is what everyone else calls "duty finder"? You can't just come up with random terms just to correct people when they think you're saying something you're not.

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I already edited my post. semantics. it is still majority rules, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I already edited my post. semantics. it is still majority rules, regardless.

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I'll agree with majority rules when the majority isn't being a ****. >_>

Edit, because stupid daily post restrictions:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

And when the minority is being a ****, it isn't also considered harassment? Just saying.

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Wanting to watch cutscenes is harassment now? Don't get me wrong, if the person who wants to watch cutscenes is *also* harassing people, that's an issue. But to say that the majority rules when the majority can't even do math to find better ways to get tomestones. . .

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'll agree with majority rules when the majority isn't being a ****. >_>

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And when the minority is being a ****, it isn't also considered harassment? Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Darra

You telling me that my time isn't worth as much as someone else's because they are new and I am not, is frankly a stupid way to look at this.

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It's actually a widely accepted business truth in the MMO and gaming world. New money is considerably more valuable than old players you already know are hooked.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'll agree with majority rules when the majority isn't being a ****. >_>

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Too late. It's rare to see that happen in something like Prae. I don't even understand why people queue for it because
the whole reason was to help newbies finish it, the vets get a bonus.

Newbies get story done.
Vets get SOL Bonus.
Everyone SHOULD win.

Frankly, the best solution would be to remove almost all of the tomestone rewards off the CM and Prae dungeons themselves and attach them to the new player bonus. Now THAT would be bargaining power.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except that the new people aren't using the roulette. They're queuing for that specific dungeon. You know, to finish their story.

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Others would say "Don't use duty finder to queue up for CM/Prae".

There is no winning side to this debate at all.

I'm really sorry you had to go through that Nekoko.
As shameful as it is to admit, this has been an ongoing problem since... well, pretty much 2.0 launch. (My solution to this issue is to simply make all CS in those dungeons unskippable, for everyone.)

However, know that after CM and Prae you will not have to suffer those types of people in story dungeons since SE chose to put them before and after dungeon completion.

The only thing I can tell you is to not let them get to you any more than they have. If you should ever run into this issue again, report the idiots for harassment asap.
Know that they do NOT have the right to force you skip cutscenes or fights. And they certainly do NOT have the right to belittle you because you want to enjoy the storyline.
In this case, those people are entirely in the wrong and they should feel ashamed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- Watching the CS at the in is a cop out. Furthermore, people who have no desire to let newbies experience the story in those two dungeons should not queue for them. If they are after tomes, there are far more efficient ways to go about getting them.

Regrettably, some members of the FFXIV are huge jerks. There is not much SE can do about their behavioral problems. SE did try to help newbies out by throwing incentives for the vets to come back- i.e. large tome bonus, gil, etc but all it did was backfire.
There are a number of ways to combat these types of players. You can report them for harassment, stand up to them, or if need be, leave the instance.
Another thing you can do- and this is more for your sanity than anyone elses, is get a couple of friends to go with you. When I ran CM and Prae, I had as many friends as I could gather come with. We weren't a full group but we were the majority. Likewise, whenever an FC mate or friend needed these dungeons, I would try to get the majority of the players to be with me. Even if all you can get is one person, it's better than nothing. Sometimes all it takes is one person to side with you to break the sheeple herd mentality in these dungeons.

Lastly, know that these idiots are not the majority of this playerbase. They are a very loud and very vocal minority. Since 2.0 launched there has been a push to have more tolerance and respect toward newbies, especially by people who were also forced to skip cs and fights.

-feeds nekoko cookies- If you were on my server, I would have gone in with you and you would have enjoyed the dungeons properly.

Like any other dungeon, if you want people to play a certain way without question, use PF and set the rules.

Alternatively, vote on progression at the start, and exit if you lose the vote. Or suck it up and go with the majority.

TLDR: Nobody is granted special snowflake privileges in DF.

While I agree that people doing the main-scenario roulette should be expecting to wait for cutscenes, I also agree that the party finder is the actual best way to do it. The other day on Malboro we did an all-cutscenes party that was actually all people who had done it before but most had been forced to skip the cutscenes the first time through.

Not sure if I'm posting in the right thread. During the course of game play I've had either questions on how to handle gil spammers or had an issue with another player for some reason or another. GM Elrisivana on the Famfrit Server is both quick and professional in opening a ticket for me and handling it. I want to give a special kudos and a thank you for the customer service. It's nice to know that when a game that is suppose to be fun, goes a little sour because of a few rotten apples, we have administration like his/hers to step in and help us players to enjoy the game and get back into the spirit of Eaorzea. Thank you again.

Best Regards,
Kluya Aether
Vice President|Shinra Inc [S.E.C.]

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the way to speedrun AK at launch was to sac pull.

As to the rest of your point, sure, if you only need a few hundred duty roulette is the way to go. If you need, say, a few thousand, you've always been better off farming a dungeon.

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No, that's absolutely right about sac pulling but the thing about CM was that it gave 100 philosophy when AK only gave 50. A good CM group could complete the dungeon in 10-15 minutes, the same amount of time that a good AK run would take. WP was argueably better because a good speed run took around 7-10 minutes. The demon wall was also a major barrier for a lot of players back at launch mainly due to the adds and people getting knocked off while trying to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'll agree with majority rules when the majority isn't being a ****. >_>

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You're essentially saying that you won't agree with the majority rule unless you're in the majority.

Everyone knows that the spirit of the bonus is to have veterans help new players through these instances (and really just to supply bodies since otherwise almost nobody would bother). People will be people and it's not their fault that SE made it ridiculously easy to speedrun through (bizarrely these instances don't even have ilevel synch -- not that it would slow people down much) and get their bonus sooner. Maybe they could have made it stricter and allow the new player(s) set the pace, but then you can easily get into the territory of a single player holding a run hostage. Given how much people troll already that's not something anybody would want to allow.

SE clearly noted the problem and has dealt with it on content since then (and presumably won't make the same mistake again). I don't think CM or Praetorium could have been restructured since so many cut scenes happen in the middle of the run so it just sits there like that annoying everyone. To say it's the impatient player's fault is the same as saying it's nobody's fault. You can't change human behavior or expect people to not play in a way that benefits themselves (even if it's seen as detrimental to others), especially if it's clearly allowed. SE designed those instances poorly and it seems like they'll just be a stain on everyone's experience forever.

On a related note, however, it would be nice if SE ever implemented that idea they had for running dungeons solo (with some NPCs or what have you). Creating a slightly altered 'story' version of CM and Praetorium that you went through solo with NPCs instead of a team of overgeared steamrollers to experience the story might resolve these issues.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Who made you the authority on who's worth more than whom in a game? My time is my own, if I decide I want to spend 10 minutes or 100 minutes helping someone, then it's my choice to do so. You telling me that my time isn't worth as much as someone else's because they are new and I am not, is frankly a stupid way to look at this. Tell me, who's the selfish person in this scenario: Person A is reading a book, his bus arrives, and 7 others get on, person A then says "hey driver, don't drive off until I finish this chapter". Or is it the 7 other people sat on the bus, who want the driver to go about his route and not wait for that 1 person? If you answered the 7 people, you sir, have serious issues.

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Except, as someone below mentions... You agreed to the requirements when you selected the roulette. It spells it out pretty explicitely what the time requirements/limits are. If you can't put that much time aside potentially you shouldn't be queueing.

And the reason I feel that a person's 1st time is worth more than someone's Nth time is because it is the 1st. You only get one 1st time. You only get one first impression. I would love to see SE's exit numbers to see how many people leave after their first brush with the loud, unpleasant minority of the end-game community. This kind of attitude bleeds players and it hurts the game's longevity.

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Originally Posted by Cikala

Considering the 7 other people decided at wait a bus stop marked "Slow Bus Line for Readers", it would be the 7 people. Here's a very simple premise. If you don't want to wait for the new players to watch their cutscenes, DON'T QUEUE FOR THE MAIN STORY ROULETTE. Anyone who does, and then belittles those who want to watch their cutscenes AND participate in the fights are just trolls and d-bags.

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Exactly this.

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Originally Posted by Oraiste

Precisely what Darra said. I have had many instances where I don't have much time to play and someone insists that an entire group of people who are just to help them clear (their words) is expected to also wait for them to watch often very long cut-scenes. In my case, nobody needs anything in that instance, 7 other people took time out of their day to help them clear, and they expect more time to be spent when they can just as simply go to the Inn. I am not saying this as someone who has had the luxury of watching cut-scenes, because I skip every one of them (except on the first day of release since everyone else watches as well). I don't like to make other people spend more of their time on me unnecessarily. I don't look at them as being jerks for wanting to get through something, I just understand that at the end of the day, when you're level 50 and almost literally have to run these things over and over just to get the gear that you want, waiting every time isn't always an option. You're playing with other people and their accumulative time, so just as you expect them to respect your desire to watch cut-scenes and take part in fights, they expect you to respect their time and ability to get you through the instance in an efficient way.

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If you don't have the time then why are you queueing for something that could take that much time? Never ever expect a flawless clear from Duty Finder. Always expect the worst, expect the most time to be taken up. Expect new people. Expect cutscenes to be watched. You'll then be pleasantly surprised when your run goes faster.

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

Apparently this is quite the hotly contested topic. I'm glad to find so many people who support my feelings in this (and I even understand those who feel differently a little better). My faith has been renewed somewhat, and I will try out each of your suggestions when I retry the second dungeon tonight. Maybe I'll even redo the first one so I can try and participate in the boss fights.

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It has, yeah. Right since launch. It does seem to have gotten better though. Less people yell since the bonuses for being with new people have been added.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The same argument could be made against new people using a player roulette and expecting that the majority would cater to them And harassing the majority even though they are in the right...

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Except that the game explicitly comes out and tells you to use the Duty Finder to do the quest.

Obviously there are points on either side of the fence about whether people should wait or if people should watch the cutscenes in the inn/PF it. And it's not something we'll ever come to an agreement on because it all comes down to what you consider important.

At this point in time though it's pretty clear that if you're really concerned about it and worried you should put up a Party Finder. Thankfully there are more people in server who'll help and be happy to. Ultimately though; people should not be jerks regardless of the differences of opinion. It's one thing to feel that people should watch the cutscenes later... It's an entirely other one to swear and curse and call people names for it.

Sorry, but on one hand you doing DF for the daily bonus and you like it when there is first time bonus too, but on the other hand you just like to speedrun it and get over it because you did the dungeon 1000+ times and cant really see it any more... I understand you, but still, then do not do the daily bonus if you dont like to wait for "others" or do it with your friends in your own group... So thats where SE made the mistake to not allow premade groups - it was intended to HELP others who cant find a group and revive old content... the players just taken it as bonus stone farming which was not ment to be!

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Try to think of it from their point of view. If you already know what happens in the cutscenes and you've done the dungeon like 50 times, do you want to be forced to stand there for 40 minutes doing absolutely nothing because one player wants to watch the cutscenes?

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I don't feel "forced" to wait for someone new to enjoy the content. That's the view of the impatient and uncaring who are just in it for their tomes.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Tell me, who's the selfish person in this scenario: Person A is reading a book, his bus arrives, and 7 others get on, person A then says "hey driver, don't drive off until I finish this chapter". Or is it the 7 other people sat on the bus, who want the driver to go about his route and not wait for that 1 person? If you answered the 7 people, you sir, have serious issues.

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LOL. Flawed analogy is flawed. No one ever got on that bus for the first time specifically to read the last chapter of that specific book. Not "Person A" nor any of the other 7 people.

A better analogy would be this: Movie Theater A is playing Movies A-C of a triology, and wants to have the theater filled for a "full experience" after the first playing of each so that no one is in an empty theater. They offer lots and lots of gift certificates every day so that people will return to watch a random movie.

People returning get tired of watching the movie, but feel obligated and entitled to the gift certificates, so they complain that they can't just fast forward through the slow, non-action-packed parts of the movie. The movie theater caves and gives them a way to fast forward through 90% of each film. So they do, and they bitch at the people who are there trying to watch the whole movie the first time, saying "Just watch it on Netflix at home later."

It's unfortunate but look at it this way, if it wasn't for the "obscure currency" (they were probably farming light) then would there have been enough people to queue for the trial at all? Would you have waited 2 hours or more for a group?

I don't blame you in the slightest and I have had several several very nice and compliant groups with new people so it's out there. Something you may want to do for future trials is start a Party Finder group. Put on the PF that you want to watch cutscenes and slow and easy play.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

the players just taken it as bonus stone farming which was not ment to be!

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I know players who have no interest in tomes, they spam it for the card. Are they wrong for wanting to clear as many times per hour as possible?

Majority rules is the only truly fair compromise. If either side of the vote disagrees, I suggest PF as an alternative.

Nobody deserves special treatment.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

I don't feel "forced" to wait for someone new to enjoy the content. That's the view of the impatient and uncaring who are just in it for their tomes.

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So the one person who expects seven people to sit around for 40 minutes twiddling their thumbs just for them when they could easily watch the cutscenes later at the inn is the altruistic one.
The seven other people who don't wait to sit around 40 minutes waiting for one person who could watch the cutscenes later are selfish jerks.

Does not compute.

If you want to watch the cutscenes during the run, you can. If you want to do the boss fights, watch the cutscenes later in the inn, it's that simple. You can't expect 7 other people to wait 40 minutes on you. To me, that is pure selfishness.

How is the seven other people's reason for queueing up any less important than the one person's reason for queueing? What if they need the soldiery tomes for something? Obviously they wouldn't of queued into it otherwise. By majority rule, the seven are more important than the one. Since the one can watch cutscenes in the inn later, I really don't see how it is so detrimental to their experience.

Look, I get it. It sucks that new players have to face this. But it's reality. There's no best solution to this. If an incentive wasn't placed for veteran players to queue up for these dungeons, new players would be facing much longer queues. Would you rather have that? Ultimately, it's SE bad on this one for putting the cutscenes in the middle of the dungeon like that.

These guys queued for " story mode " roulette. If they are smart enough they could easily understand that one of the players is actually here to do the ... "story mode". For real.

This is the only roulette with strong ties with the MSQ scenario and with important CS. If someone is willing to watch the CS im fine with that because i can understand . ALL the other contents drop my tomes as well and the cards drop from the indolent imperial too. no need to be an a**hole like that guy who "cant compute" (maybe he just sucks? see too much people like him in the community now).

I signed for the "story mode" roulette . i ve been perfectly warned, this was in the name of the roulette... its ok then if someone actually needs the story stuff.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

snip.

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You're right. Nobody deserves special treatment but everyone should be treated with respect.
If people are not after tomes and are after the card, then they can very easily set up a farming party with like minded individuals. The same cannot be said for newbies who want to enjoy the storyline.
After all, party finder was created for the sole purpose of giving veteran players a way to control their groups.
It just so happens that newbies can also use it.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

snip

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Yeah, you're right- it is obvious that it doesn't compute.
I'm not sure what to tell you to actually make you understand why experiencing the storyline in the dungeon, as was intended, is important to some people.
Their time and reason for playing is no less valid than the seven other people in that dungeon. I'm also not sure what to tell you to make you understand that other people don't appreciate being treated like crap for wanting to experience content in a way that doesn't agree with somebody else.

As the more experienced players here, we should be the ones with more patience and tolerance. It's not every day that you will run into a newbie who wants to watch the cs and experience the fights. (Some newbies don't care for them and that's their choice)
However, even if it is every day that this occurs, as experienced players *we* know what we are getting into when we queue up for Story Mode Roulette. We know how long those cs are and we know if we want to or not deal with them.
The answer is not, 'oi! noob go watch the cs at the inn because I want this sh*t over with asap!', the answer is "Don't queue for MSQ Roulette if you aren't prepared to let people experience the story." Whatever the vets are after from CM and Prae is something that they *WILL* have an easier time obtaining through other means.
Otherwise, the vets are being far more selfish than the newbies.

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Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

These guys queued for " story mode " roulette. If they are smart enough they could easily understand that one of the players is actually here to do the ... "story mode".

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Not true at all, story mode roulette does not require any of the people entering to be new and more often than not it's 8 people only running it for the tomes.

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

So my question is... has the end game always been this way? Is there no one left who wants to play through the dungeon at a reasonable pace so I can appreciate the content I worked for?

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Castrum and Praetorium is NOT the end-game.

Second, to your latter question, usually people are just rushing through things as part of the grind so it's hard to find too many people that will empathize with you there, maybe on the forums, but in the actual group where everybody's doing that for the Nth time, people just wanna get it over with. It's a design flaw that those two places have so many damn cut scenes.. But like you said, you watched the cut scenes the first time around, now you can do the fight second time :) It's not ideal, but that'll at least get things done.


Actual End-game, doesn't happen like that. If you're chasing end-game contents you'll find that you'll be doing the mindless grind much the same way as other people in your group did.. and the cut scenes are no where as long as those two places.

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

You're right. Nobody deserves special treatment but everyone should be treated with respect.
If people are not after tomes and are after the card, then they can very easily set up a farming party with like minded individuals. The same cannot be said for newbies who want to enjoy the storyline.

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Yes, but what's easier, 7 people making their own individual pf group everyday just for 1 run for a measley ~100 tomes?? there's not enough motivation there to go through all that trouble.

Where on the other hand, the first timer with vested interest in experiencing the game as meant to be, cut scenes in between actually has the motivation to organize a group together. In fact it doesn't even need to be a full group, a group of 3 (2 heals or 2 tank) is enough to hold back the group and slow down the run. and that's what we do for my "special" friend that HAS to have it that way, the special kind that gathers his own shards for all crafting and never skips a cut scene even if he's watched it before -_- I still have a hard time understanding him lol

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

Yeah, you're right- it is obvious that it doesn't compute.
I'm not sure what to tell you to actually make you understand why experiencing the storyline in the dungeon, as was intended, is important to some people.
Their time and reason for playing is no less valid than the seven other people in that dungeon. I'm also not sure what to tell you to make you understand that other people don't appreciate being treated like crap for wanting to experience content in a way that doesn't agree with somebody else.

As the more experienced players here, we should be the ones with more patience and tolerance. It's not every day that you will run into a newbie who wants to watch the cs and experience the fights. (Some newbies don't care for them and that's their choice)
However, even if it is every day that this occurs, as experienced players *we* know what we are getting into when we queue up for Story Mode Roulette. We know how long those cs are and we know if we want to or not deal with them.
The answer is not, 'oi! noob go watch the cs at the inn because I want this sh*t over with asap!', the answer is "Don't queue for MSQ Roulette if you aren't prepared to let people experience the story." Whatever the vets are after from CM and Prae is something that they *WILL* have an easier time obtaining through other means.
Otherwise, the vets are being far more selfish than the newbies.

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See, what you are doing here though by having the 7 other people wait is basically saying their time is less valuable than the 1 person who wants to experience the storyline. They queued up so they could finish it and get the tomes quickly. Noone wants to sit around getting nothing done for 40 minutes. If I was that 1 person I would NEVER ask 7 other people to wait around for me, I'd feel bad and I'd feel like a jerk if I did that. Hell, just an hour ago I did a CM run with 7 noobs, and I was completely patient and didn't complain at all as they ran it normally. I gave them instructions without insulting, said it was ok when they screwed things up, etc. I did this because I was the only vet in there, the majority were new players, and as such the majority rules.

Likewise, a new player who is outnumbered by 7 vets should not expect the entire run to be catered to him when EVERYONE ELSE wants to speedrun it.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

See, what you are doing here though by having the 7 other people wait is basically saying their time is less valuable than the 1 person who wants to experience the storyline.

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I completely agree, EXPECTING, not ASKING the group of 7 to wait for you is incredibly selfish.. My "special" friend I described above has actually done a dungeon like that once where he didn't feel right holding the group back so he just skipped the cut scenes, it bugged him enough that when I logged on, he asked me to do the dungeon with him so he can just redo it. That's reasonable, at least it shows that he's capable of acknowledging other players as actual people with their own agenda and their own time constraints..

and by "special" I don't mean special, he just has few quirks that borders on obsessive, but self-aware so as to not blame the entire World when they don't stop to look after his own needs.

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

So my question is... has the end game always been this way? Is there no one left who wants to play through the dungeon at a reasonable pace so I can appreciate the content I worked for? Is there nothing that can be done to prevent this sort of content and player abuse? Why does Square reward such toxic behavior? I was practically in tears when I left FFXIV last night and for the first time I actually wanted to cancel my subscription and uninstall. If this is the sort of treatment I have to look forward to, I shudder to think what people will say if I ever play with less that optimal gear or I don't perform perfectly as a tank >_>;

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Threads like this make me quite sad, and also make it difficult to recommend this game (which I otherwise like very much) to any of my friends who currently aren't playing it.

Poor attitudes of players aside, in my opinion the practice of scaling down the ilevel of gear in lower level dungeons should be present in every dungeon. I'm not sure why the developers are only interested in maintaining the integrity of the intended challenge only in pre-50 dungeons. I think players would lose a lot of their willingness to charge ahead without everyone else if they didn't outlevel the content by so much.

I also think nobody in the party should be able to prematurely end a cutscene if there's a first-timer on the run. That removes both the stress and burden off the new person and allows the content to be experienced as intended by the designers. Unfortunately, few would probably agree to these things because everyone wants their shinies yesterday (so they can then come here and complain about a lack of things to do).

While it's probably not feasible for everyone, I tackled this problem by scheduling a run for these two dungeons with my guild. Like you, I explained this was the big finale to the story I had waded through for 50 levels, and that I wanted to at least try to experience it properly - not only by watching the cutscenes, but by tackling the run with everyone at an average item level of ~50. My guild was cool enough to help me with this; everyone interested dusted off their artifact gear and through a group effort we got the 8-man party outfitted with crafted gear around ilevel 50 for the remaining slots. I got to experience the end of the story in a very authentic and enjoyable way, and I think it was definitely worth the effort of arranging. It is probably my fondest memory in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by NekokoCatseye

But then the secret was revealed. These people had all done this dungeon over 50 times and was simply grinding out some obscure piece of currency with which to buy better gear.

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I think your party was stuck in 2.0 and we need to get them out of Castrum Meridianum.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Poor attitudes of players aside, in my opinion the practice of scaling down the ilevel of gear in lower level dungeons should be present in every dungeon. I'm not sure why the developers are only interested in maintaining the integrity of the intended challenge only in pre-50 dungeons. I think players would lose a lot of their willingness to charge ahead without everyone else if they didn't outlevel the content by so much.

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People were speed running CM back when ilvl90 was the highest you could go. Syncing it down to i90 will change nothing. Unless you mean syncing it down even further to i70 or something. In which case, veteran players will stop doing the story roulette altogether and just farm ST all day for tomes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gyson

I also think nobody in the party should be able to prematurely end a cutscene if there's a first-timer on the run. That removes both the stress and burden off the new person and allows the content to be experienced as intended by the designers. Unfortunately, few would probably agree to these things because everyone wants their shinies yesterday (so they can then come here and complain about a lack of things to do).

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If you do that, people will just straight up leave when they see a first timer, or they will mock and ridicule him even worse than now since they have no option to go ahead with the run.