Paladins oath stance it is long over due.

I like how this conversation always proceeds under the assumption that a job can't get two stun abilities, even though they clearly can.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I like how this conversation always proceeds under the assumption that a job can't get two stun abilities, even though they clearly can.

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Don't you dare proposing gameplay changes !! è_é

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I like how this conversation always proceeds under the assumption that a job can't get two stun abilities, even though they clearly can.

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This conversation proceeds on existing skills, since the OP think that there are existing flaws.

Do the tanks jobs have two existing stun abilities ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This conversation proceeds on existing skills, since the OP think that there are existing flaws.

Do the tanks jobs have two existing stun abilities ?

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Only because the OP is extremely impatient and doesn't want to wait for 3.0. With new skills in 3.0, there's no reason they couldn't introduce new stuns.

EDIT: Alternately, WHM got a new QoL ability. Why can't the tanks? Or, y'know, wait for 3.0 like sensible people.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Only because the OP is extremely impatient and doesn't want to wait for 3.0. With new skills in 3.0, there's no reason they couldn't introduce new stuns.

EDIT: Alternately, WHM got a new QoL ability. Why can't the tanks? Or, y'know, wait for 3.0 like sensible people.

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Well...you see...in fact...the OP is not at all about Stun skills. It's just that the topic inevitably derailed on "Why my job is better than yours" :p

Stoneskin II doesn't change the flow of combat, just the downtime. Removing the oath from GCD would be a really huge improvement for PLD, especially if they also remove MP cost, since no skill "cost" both cooldown and ressources.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

... Paladins can use stun infinitely

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This apply for every instant skill (without long recast) almost every class have (see brd). You click on the button every time it is ready.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Think about on large pulls. If you have a good threat lead and are trying to help the healers, you can currently go down the list stunning each target once for basically free mitigation (assuming WHM isn't holying.)

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It works only on the paper, but have no real world application.
Each stun have to wait GCD, and you cannot ever think to rotate your stun to all mobs in your pack without lose aggro, just at 4th mob 10s have passed and the brd/blm is now tanking all other mobs.

It may work for a group of two or three mobs, but they are not a threat when you are in trash cleaning duty.

And "mount enough aggro" first, does not apply, because in real situations, you are running for aggro against all classes from the start of the pull until the end. Cannot even think you can slack on aggro a whole 10s. Unless you talking about low level duties done with your i500 tank and i-1 dps.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well...you see...in fact...the OP is not at all about Stun skills. It's just that the topic inevitably derailed on "Why my job is better than yours" :p

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Blarg. Touché.

The WHM thing was more of a "if you must have instant gratification, here's some shaky logic for you."

I think the oaths on pld are fine. If there was one change to pld I would say non emnity attack so as not to rip hate off MT when slighty more geared.

Oh sheet, OP were about oaths...
I think they are fine as is. On tank swap situations I just "prepare" the correct one and lose the few seconds that may be used for dps, but my dps is really not needed for the fight, it is just a bonus but not required. Yes more dps always welcome but not my duty there and a failing dps check will hardly be my fault.

My thoughts:

Oaths are fine.
Shield bash is fine.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Oh sheet, OP were about oaths...
I think they are fine as is. On tank swap situations I just "prepare" the correct one and lose the few seconds that may be used for dps, but my dps is really not needed for the fight, it is just a bonus but not required. Yes more dps always welcome but not my duty there and a failing dps check will hardly be my fault.

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People should really work on getting rid of this wrong idea that Tank DPS isn't important.
Especially when they are playing tank themselves.

Tank DPS is important, but it's better to hold off a bit than screwing a tank swap.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

but my dps is really not needed for the fight, it is just a bonus but not required. Yes more dps always welcome but not my duty there and a failing dps check will hardly be my fault.

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Actually all encounters are balanced with the additional tank dps in mind.
You certainly arent the main one responsible for dps but if you do significantly less dps than a normal tank you are definitely hurting your team in stuff like coil.

It makes me sad to watch Tanks fight over MT and not deal with the OT duties but hey that's why we call them Troll Tower but I think this post is pretty much decided No changes required. ChaozK what would you consider good dps cus I seen some tanks rocking under 6k hp going all Str and I recently moved my points over to STR cus PLD with over 9k HP was a waste IMO

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

This apply for every instant skill (without long recast) almost every class have (see brd). You click on the button every time it is ready.

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Huh? No. Cooldown's for those instant casts are often the case. Such as WAR with a 20 saecond cooldown, and with Bard - each cooldown they use, has a cooldown... Their skills, which are for DPS, are really the only ones without a cooldown (And even bloodletter has a CD, so... moot point?)

There is not a SINGLE off-GCD skill in the game that has no cooldown. Because it would just be rediculous and you'd spam it every time if you dont' have something else to use in its place.

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It works only on the paper, but have no real world[ application.

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This might be a situation of YMMV in that case. I do it often and I don't lose threat. But it might be that upper-geared BLM's will rip threat easier, or that your gear might just not be as strong as theirs (I do't know how well your geared, my appologies) : But if you're assuming gear is equal, your threat will easily be above a BLM's.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Maybe when they raise the level cap to 60 they can give Paladin a self-cure which isn't reliant on having high Mind to restore a decent sum. Maybe strength based, similar to Second Wind. It'll give us something else to use our MP on, and improve our survivability.

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It seems odd to me that the paladin class is not the heal class but the cooldown class. Feels like they got warrior and paladin the wrong way round.

Perhaps they could make a set percentage of your strength convert to mind when under shield oath then at least cure would have some use.

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Originally Posted by Selli

I'd personally like to see PLD's stun be an OGCD. The WAR's stun is OGCD (and I honestly think the cooldown is ridiculous), but I am embarrassed to admit how many times I have failed to stun when I play my derpPLD (any melee/BLM who have run Lost City of Amdapor with me is crying right now, LOL).

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Bring it off the global cooldown but give it a large TP cost so it can't be spammed.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

getting sword oath before shield oath is fucking stupid though

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It is. Infact I'd rather they get rid of sword oath entirely. Give us Shield oath at 30 instead.

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Originally Posted by Stigmar

It makes me sad to watch Tanks fight over MT and not deal with the OT duties but hey that's why we call them Troll Tower but I think this post is pretty much decided No changes required. ChaozK what would you consider good dps cus I seen some tanks rocking under 6k hp going all Str and I recently moved my points over to STR cus PLD with over 9k HP was a waste IMO

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Thats a tough question to answer with a general number because tank dps is highly dependant on your duties in each individual encounter and how much str you use.
Going all out max str and no tank stance its possible to break 400 dps on a training dummie.

I'd say you'd need to at the very least be above 140 dps in all circumstances with an i115+ weapon as a PLD. (VIT based, all VIT)

You can go anywhere from 230 to 330 as a WAR though

Initial thread about wanting Paladins to have their Oaths out of GCD, ends up in an all out tanking tool with some people throwing an opinion without full knowledge or neglecting some things.

1. To those saying "Be happy PLDs get 2 stances" you seem to forget that warriors have something called "Maim" that grants them 20% more damage, almost fully neglecting for starters their damage reduction from Defiance, making them able to have 2 "stances" up all the time, whereas PLDs get only 1.

2. Shield Bash will drain 1/10 of your total TP, so if you spam that for "infinite" stuns, you'll run out of TP before you know it, and unlike WARs, PLDs lack anything but flash to "regen" TP in combat, where WARs can use their Wrath abilities and Flash or Berserk's pacification (if not dispelled). And about Shield Bash having 110 potency while Brutal Swing only having 100, read point 1.

Both jobs play in a different way, but I as both a PLD and a WAR would thank what the initial post was about, removing GCD from the Oaths (and maybe their MP cost).

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Originally Posted by BlueThunder

1. To those saying "Be happy PLDs get 2 stances" you seem to forget that warriors have something called "Maim" that grants them 20% more damage, almost fully neglecting for starters their damage reduction from Defiance, making them able to have 2 "stances" up all the time, whereas PLDs get only 1.

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oh dear... Maim is nothing like what you think it is. Firstly, while under Defiance, you only recover 15% of your damage with maim. That ends at 90% damage for WAR, 80% for PLD. That's intentional.

Also please, there is no danger when stance dancing as a PLD (you break a combo, at most), while WARs have to sacrifice a chunk of their HPs they may need immediately, making it dangerous to swap in many situations unless your healers are prepared and used to it.

It's simple.. PLDs get it easy with no threat => breaks combo, on GCD
WARs can actually be endangered when they use it => OGCD.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Bring it off the global cooldown but give it a large TP cost so it can't be spammed.

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It does have a huge TP cost. It's over 100 TP to use it. Not to mention most things become stun resistant, so spamming it doesn't do much.

Besides, DRGs, WARs, and NINs (with one of the poisons) all have stuns that are OGCD and they use them in their rotation because they do a bit of damage. I'd rather avoid having it become one of those skills, I'd just really like not to miss stuns because I was in the middle of a Halone combo and I have basically no skill speed.

I agree that the Oaths should be placed off the GCD.
And another thing, I hate how you have to activate them, why not activate Shield Oath, and make Sword Oath automatic?

I also think being out of Defiance should gain that 50 potency auto attack.
Meanwhile, I think Shield Bash should be off GCD also, and WAR really DOES need a silence at this point, right? Kind of unfair for PLD to have the only tank silence.

Come to think of it, why do we even have PLD and WAR? Why don't they just make Tank and be done with it, the all in one solution!

Speaking of which... why on earth do we even have two healers?

Hmmmm...

you forgot to get rid of all dps. We just need "mage", "fighter" and "archer" (archer is optional though). And of course, we just need one "Foe" (cuz FOEs kick ass)

I think Hallowed Ground is a bit imbalanced tbh.

It should last a lot longer.

Also give PLD a gun.