Dear All Bards,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

As a bard, I tend to use my songs as a "oh shit, someone is almost out of resources" button over using foe. If the healer is < 50% mp, time to help out the healer. If I'm almost out of TP, I make the assumption that some of the other TP using classes are probably at least getting low, so it's time to use peon.

Having the magic classes deal more damage is great and all, but if I don't have the mana available to keep up the other two songs when needed, it's a larger problem. Healer runs out of mana? People are going to start dying. Classes run out of TP? Their dps plummets.

---

That's no excuse to not open with Foe. If your healer or melee are running out of resources within the 2 minutes or so it takes to completely MP drain and restore, then something is extremely wrong.

People are using wod as an example, it also happens in all forms of endgame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

That's no excuse to not open with Foe. If your healer or melee are running out of resources within the 2 minutes or so it takes to completely MP drain and restore, then something is extremely wrong.

---

Oh I agree. But once it hits the middle of the fight, I never consider using Foe. Because in my opinion, keeping the resources ready to resupply other players in an emergency trumps making the fight a little faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accolade

People are using wod as an example, it also happens in all forms of endgame.

---

If want to whine about bards not playing songs in coils, make a thread about that. This one clearly states at the start it is about playing in labyrinth, ST and WoD and was specific in mentioning only Foes and Battle Voice. All those places Foes is not required, ever...outside of clearing it slightly quicker. So you don't get to clear the entire place few minutes quicker...so? If you need songs you will get them, but this thread is whining about something not needed at all.

In coils it is 'needed' sometimes, trials too but in the examples given by the OP it is not. If thread was made about that (which was not) then would have a more valuable discussion but whining about Foes in WoD...really? Battle Voice is ESPECIALLY not needed in the places described by the OP, with MP regen there is more validity in bringing it up in places like labyrinth, ST or WoD (which ironically was not mentioned by the OP in the original comment) but even then only if have bad healers or really bad players which die constantly being a drain on the healers.

I actually play Foes, MP regen in WoD but I see zero reason to whine about those that do not, the place is not hard, Foes is certainly not needed and that is especially the case for Battle Voice, MP regen is very rarely needed.

If going to whine about something try to at least whine about something worthwhile. I have zero problems with other bards relaxing and taking it easy in there, why? Because it is easy and their songs are not required to clear it 99% of the time. If the groups are struggling to clear the content you can bet that bards will play the songs needed to clear it but when is not needed, don't whine about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

Oh I agree. But once it hits the middle of the fight, I never consider using Foe. Because in my opinion, keeping the resources ready to resupply other players in an emergency trumps making the fight a little faster.

---

Eh. . .honestly, if you can pop an ether, you can keep your healers afloat in most circumstances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Doe Foe affect performance of other alliances in a 24 man raid? I know that it is a mob debuff - you can see the icon on the mob's status bar. However, I've NEVER seen that icon on a boss unless I've been the one singing Foe or I know another bard in my alliance has done it. The same thing would apply for DRG's Disembowel debuff.

---

u probably have the option to ONLY see your own debuffs , i use focus target to see what debuffs are applied.

But in WoD thats hard with looots of debuffs and focus windows only showing a few, so if i go bard , i usually start foe requiem+ battle voice.on the beggining after that meh...

I love that ppl use WoD as example , lol a brd dont singing is the least of your problems in WoD :D , is a trainwreck of ppl playing badly because they dont care or dont know any better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

Oh I agree. But once it hits the middle of the fight, I never consider using Foe. Because in my opinion, keeping the resources ready to resupply other players in an emergency trumps making the fight a little faster.

---

If your team is doing well for most part of the run, you could pop Foe's. Might as well, right?
You make a point though. The only ones that truly need MP is the WHM's though so...but
that's when either they're being silly or everythings going to hell lol.

I do like others, I pop Foe's and BV then see what happens later on and decide what I should sing.
Can't sing just for the fun of it sinces it takes my damage too. xD!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I'm a new bard so I have some quick questions.

1. Does Paeons/Ballad stack? [IE. 2 bards using it.]
So far I've been switching back and forth with the other bard if they play.
2. Does FoE ONLY work on YOUR party? Or everyone in the raid? [IE. CT]

That said, I always sing when need be.
Also, use Battle voice, please.




Thank you!

---

Songs do stack if two bards are singing two different songs. But if two bards sing the same song they don't stack.

As a bard, my willingness to play foe in raids is egal to the tanks willingness to grab adds. Which is close to none.

:D

It hurts a bit here to read bards saying they won't sing foe in wod... You lose nothing, but gain more dps for your casters, healers and ninjas, why wouldn't you? And please don't say ballad or paeon, if someone needs mp or tp before you get mp back, they deserve to be starved sorry. I can die as a whm and still be on res duty and be fine with no ballad.

Crystal tower's ppl is so random with their approach to spiking their own dmg that I have found that in most cases there is no real reason to do foe pluss voice, only if i have have it at the end of boss encounter. But healers on other hand can have that one moment where there is huge drain on their mp or one of them dies so keepingn voice for those instances is much more effective.

And we are primarily a dps class so i hate every single idiot who thinks a bard is a support class in essence. People play however they want to play and however they feel they should play, and they are entitled to. DF is random and there is no assigned class requirment excecpt strict roles - to recover hp, to keep enemies attention and be a dmg sponge, to deal the most dmg. Thats is what i expect from DF matchup, to be in your assigned role - to tank, to heal, to dps, anything other is just a nice bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gzuscry

And we are primarily a dps class so i hate every single idiot who thinks a bard is a support class in essence.

---

I get what you mean, but to be fair BRDs do have a healer limit break.....they are intended to be more support than other classes even though at the core they are DPS. I don't think anyone is an idiot for expecting support from a Bard, who's job abilities primarily consist of buffs and debuffs.

Weird, I love support roles so whenever I can, I will use those ballads. But whenever I sing, I get called a noob for lowering my dps and thus lowering the overall group preformance.

And all I can think of on this subject is that one ST run where we had a caster (forget if it was a SMN or a BLM) in one of the teams, SPAMMING the alliance chat from before Amon to the end of Xande's with demands for Foe's, with caps lock and multiple sound effects in each demand. Even after the three or four bards had told the caster straight up that acting like that was only making them more reluctant to play it.

He probably would have gotten his Foe's if he'd been nice about it, asked once or twice (and maybe even with a *gasp* "please" in it!?) and then focused on actually doing damage instead of just spaming alliance chat. And, you know, if he hadn't been trolling before with pulling mobs and bosses before everyone was at the arena and stuff like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fluffya

As a bard, my willingness to play foe in raids is egal to the tanks willingness to grab adds. Which is close to none.

---

So that means you'll play foe when I'm your tank? =D Awesome!
*always goes OT when possible* XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Snip

---

Just because something "isn't needed" doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Battle Voice + Foe's can significantly speed up the time of many boss/trash encounters, and the point is that there is absolutely zero justification for not using it.

It is really poor habit building to main a Bard and decide that you're not going to utilize some of the most powerful support abilities in the game because you don't deem it "necessary." Don't want to play songs? Great, don't play a bard. Play something else.

By your logic, no single healer should cast protect or stoneskin because "it isn't needed." The only time where it is absolutely "needed" is end game raids like coil, so hey, why bother, right?

Buffs and debuffs, whether or not they are absolutely "Needed" are still there for a reason; they're there to make content easier.

Outwardly shrugging off making the encounter easier on everyone by speeding it up because you don't deem it "necessary" is ultimately poor game playing, muchacho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkstride

I get what you mean, but to be fair BRDs do have a healer limit break.....they are intended to be more support than other classes even though at the core they are DPS. I don't think anyone is an idiot for expecting support from a Bard, who's job abilities primarily consist of buffs and debuffs.

---

I pretty sure devs have stated that the brd lb doesnt make sense, and will be changed in the exp when every job gets a unique lb. And brd is classified as DPS, anything else is just what players have decided for themselves.

I always put Foe up, even if all we have for casters in the party are the healers because it boosts their dps as well. My husband often plays scholar and I know that I know he's dps'ing whenever he can. When Speedflox was still a thing, I'd Paeon for myself for the AOEs.

I *have* been yelled at in dungeons before for not giving a healer ballad when their MP got to 1/2 because I had no MP left from having Foe up for the BLM. Can't please everyone. /shrugs

(And honestly, if I'm having to save MP "in case" ballads are needed for too many raises in raids? Prolly doin' it wrong there, people.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

whine whining

whining

whine

whine whine whine

---

You like to use the whine word huh - seems your whining about whiners. Dont Whine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

I pretty sure devs have stated that the brd lb doesnt make sense, and will be changed in the exp when every job gets a unique lb. And brd is classified as DPS, anything else is just what players have decided for themselves.

---

I'm just saying that there was intent for Bard to be a support-oriented DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

Just because something "isn't needed" doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Battle Voice + Foe's can significantly speed up the time of many boss/trash encounters, and the point is that there is absolutely zero justification for not using it.

It is really poor habit building to main a Bard and decide that you're not going to utilize some of the most powerful support abilities in the game because you don't deem it "necessary." Don't want to play songs? Great, don't play a bard. Play something else.

By your logic, no single healer should cast protect or stoneskin because "it isn't needed." The only time where it is absolutely "needed" is end game raids like coil, so hey, why bother, right?

Buffs and debuffs, whether or not they are absolutely "Needed" are still there for a reason; they're there to make content easier.

---

He is right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkstride

I get what you mean, but to be fair BRDs do have a healer limit break.....

---

Not for much longer though, it is being replaced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Not for much longer though, it is being replaced.

---

Again, as I already said, I was just stating that there was intent for Bard to be support-oriented even as DPS. The fact that they even considered giving a DPS ckass a hwaling limit break shows the intent for support.

Even the lore states that their strength in battle is their ability to inspire their comrades. Bard's abilities are primarily support. I feel like people sticking to this "I'm a DPS" thing are just being stubborn. Yes, Bard is a DPS because roles are limited to only tank, heal and DPS. That doesn't mean that Bard's array of support abilities should be ignored because "I'm a DPS".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

-snip-

---

Being needed or in this case not needed is relevant. If something is needed to clear that content almost all bards would play songs to clear it. If it is not needed, you are in no position to demand they play it just because you can't be bothered to spend a few more minutes across the entire raid period clearing it.

If it is easy content (which it is) then bards can choose to play or not play songs and if you do not like it then too bad, so sad but that's your problem not theirs. If it is hard content then almost all bards will play songs when needed to help clear it. I am betting your one of those people who forces everyone to skip cutscene's and pull every mob in dungeon runs even when others tell you in the group that they do not want to do such.

If your going to whine about playing songs then at least whine about playing when needed and not whenever the hell you feel like they should do it, especially when it is not required at all. If do not like that then make your own bard and play songs 24/7 when not required to your hearts content but if it is not needed then so what? Get over it. In statics for some EX trials maybe and coils then sure they need to play songs often but in WoD? No they don't.

Just do your job instead of worrying about them speeding up your clearance time. They unlike you might not be in such a rush and that is their right to take it easy on easy content. You do not get to dictate differently...not in easy content like Lab, ST or WoD. If a bard plays songs to speed up the run in such places that's fine, I do so myself but there is no reason to whine about bards who do not...not when in places like Lab, ST or WoD or even simple 4 man dungeons etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

snip.

---

And again, look back to my other post:
"By your logic, no single healer should cast protect or stoneskin because "it isn't needed." The only time where it is absolutely "needed" is end game raids like coil, so hey, why bother, right?

Buffs and debuffs, whether or not they are absolutely "Needed" are still there for a reason; they're there to make content easier.

Outwardly shrugging off making the encounter easier on everyone by speeding it up because you don't deem it "necessary" is ultimately poor game playing."

It's ironic and hypocritical you accuse be of not being able to be bothered to spend "a few extra minutes" when you can't be bothered to spend the extra four seconds to activate two abilities that will save us all that time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

demand they play it just because you can't be bothered to spend a few more minutes across the entire raid period clearing it.

---

But you have the skill sitting there on your action bar... why wait a few minutes longer, if you just have to press a single skill ONCE every so often. It sounds like your the one "that cant be bothered" utilzing all skills at your disposal.

Edit: Bah waywardWind got inb4 me

This wouldn't be an issue if they would just release a 2nd archer job that focuses solely on DPS (Ranger, maybe?). Like what they did for the Arcanist job. That way, those who don't like playing songs can switch to that class and be done with it.

Right now, like with Goad on Ninja, I only play songs when someone asks (Granted I usually just play in CT/ST/WoD these days). The only reason why I don't play Archer over Bard is because I'd be losing an AoE skill and my damage output would be even lower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkstride

Again, as I already said, I was just stating that there was intent for Bard to be support-oriented even as DPS. The fact that they even considered giving a DPS ckass a hwaling limit break shows the intent for support.

Even the lore states that their strength in battle is their ability to inspire their comrades. Bard's abilities are primarily support. I feel like people sticking to this "I'm a DPS" thing are just being stubborn. Yes, Bard is a DPS because roles are limited to only tank, heal and DPS. That doesn't mean that Bard's array of support abilities should be ignored because "I'm a DPS".

---

I had this discussion before in another thread. It is a DPS 'class' with three support skills that come from the bard 'job'. It's primary role is a DPS, it's secondary role is support. It has 18 DPS skills and 3 support skills if exclude Swiftsong, it's primary stat is DEX which is used to increase it's damage and DPS. The support skills are not being ignored overall in the grand scheme of things, they are generally used when needed instead of when not needed, as far as I am concerned bards are perfectly okay to rely on their primary role instead of support when taking part in easy content.

My issue with this thread and the OP is his demand they play songs when not needed in easy places which do not require any songs to be played at all. If he feels so strongly about it maybe he should ditch his other classes and play bard 24/7 in which case he can play songs for all eternity for all I care...that would be his choice but he does not get to dictate other bards must play songs when they are neither required or needed. If they are needed however I might have a different view on the subject but whining about Foes and Battle Voice in Labyrinth and ST or WoD? Seriously?

Also funny how the one skill that is actually potentially more important aka MP regen in that place is not mentioned by the OP in this original post. Someone demanding they play songs when not required annoys me, if it is not needed then they can play or not play songs if they want...as simple as that. I find it a little insulting that someone is demanding all the bards play songs when they are not required just because he wants to save a few minutes on clearing times. On hard content I agree bards should play songs to help clear it but on easy content, leave them alone to DPS if they want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LLSmoothJ

This wouldn't be an issue if they would just release a 2nd archer job that focuses solely on DPS (Ranger, maybe?).

---

I very much hope the Machinist will be the one to fill this role. An insta-cast mobile range dps, akin to a ranger. All the brds that dont like to use all their available skills can hop on that bandwagon.
Not enough info is around yet, its hard to say if Machinist is going to be similar to smn pets, or more like totems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

-snip-

---

If a buff is not needed then the person who casts it normally is under no obligation to do so. On hard content which it is needed then they should make use of all their skills required to complete the content, but you and Accolade do not get to dictate that everyone must play with every skill in perfect rotations and perfect timing for all content especially easy content like ones you mentioned in the OP. If they do not need to play perfectly or play the skills you want when you want it then you are in no position to demand they do...if they did need to do so they would do so but in this situation they do not so get over yourself and just worry about doing your job instead.

Who said anything about a perfect rotation. Were talking about using your available skills to help the situation.

Also this made me laugh a lot:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

if they did need to do so they would do so but in this situation they do not so

---

Foe Requiem:
Reduces all enemy magic resistance by 10%....

Army's Paeon:
Refreshes TP of all nearby party members while lowering own damage dealt by 20%.

Above:
Note how Foe Requiem does not lower you own damage during the effect compared to Army's Paeon.

I think it speaks for itself, and in wich situation this is most suited.
ST/ST & WoD Where each party bundles up a group of mobs for and all-around AoE DPS fest.
Any bard not picking this up within the few seconds should just stop playing.

Maximize the overall DPS of the alliance or you as an individual?
Its not very hard to do the math here of wich is most efficient.

whenever i go whm 3% of brds do sing sometimes they keep ballad up when its not needed.:confused:

Did WoD yesterday i went as brd kept my songs up foe / ballad whenever whm needed , other brd don't wanna sing most go with "why should i sing i got relic i shouldn't be wasting time singing its for noobs anyways" really wat?

I didn't knw owning a relic or shiva weapon is excuse to not sing ....:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accolade

Who said anything about a perfect rotation. Were talking about using your available skills to help the situation.

---

It is exactly the same thing. Just like the OPs hypothetical situation put to me.

In all three cases it is doing something not needed to help speed up your run, that's all it is and perfect rotations is an extension of that very same stance. In the case of hard content putting in more effort and playing better is more important but in easy content like the OP listed it is not and people should not be forced by you to apply hardcore raid play styles to non-hardcore content as long as the content is being cleared. You do not get to dictate differently on easy non-hardcore content like such places mentioned by the OP outside of such things such as statics of PF parties.

As I said I play such songs but even I have the decency to understand I should not demand other bards play such songs when such songs are not required at all. They are not part of my static, we are not doing hardcore content and we are not in a PF using predetermined rules. If a bard wants to play songs during easy non-hardcore content in order to speed up the run that's fine, I do such myself...but it also fine if they do not provided it is not required to clear it. Get off your high horses and stop demanding others conform to your play rules when the content does not require they do so in any way whatsoever.

If it is easy content let others take is easier as long as the DPS>DPS's, the Healers>Heal, the Tank's>Tank if the content gets cleared then that is all that matters. On hard content where more effort is required...then and only then should you push them to be better so that as a group that content can be cleared. But on easy content? Sorry, but get over yourselves and just do your job instead of worrying about theirs especially when they are doing their job good enough to clear that easy content in the first place.

I make an effort to sing in LotA/ST/WoD but I prefer saving Battle Voice for Mage's Ballad when healers are low on MP than using it with Foe's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

My issue with this thread and the OP is his demand they play songs when not needed in easy places which do not require any songs to be played at all.

---

You're contradicting yourself. First you say this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Also funny how the one skill that is actually potentially more important aka MP regen in that place is not mentioned by the OP in this original post.

---

...and then you say this.

You're idolizing Mage's Ballad like it's the second coming. Mage's Ballad in, as you called it, "easy content" means that your healer has no idea what he's doing, at all. As someone who has run through WoD on almost every single class, never once have I encountered problems with managing my MP. You proclaim the content is easy and then say Mage's Ballad is entirely and truly vital? What?

This "I PLAY HOW I WANT, DEAL" attitude is poor. FFXIV is not solo-based content endgame. Your actions heavily affect the other 23 people playing around you during these raids. You cannot just idly sit back and ignore mechanics/lazily perform your job because you want glide on by in easy content.

If everyone played like that, no progress would be made in ANY of this content.

BLMs have Apocatastasis. Can we start calling them a support class? The next time I'm tanking a LotA I'm going to shout at / shame every BLM who isn't using it on me. DO YOUR JOBS!!! SUPPORT MEEEEE!

By the logic of some of these people healers should'nt have to dps. Since they're healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

-snip-

---

Wow...you need to go back and read it again, I never once said it is vital or in any way whatsoever implied it was the second coming. Learn the difference between saying something is vital and my comment which said it is more important than Foes and Battle Voice in that place. It is not that important in that place at all, none of them are and in fact I said also that 99% of the time no songs are required at all in those places...what I said and how to correctly interpret it is 'it is more important than the ones you listed' but 'none of them are very important in those places'. That is both what I said and implied.

What on earth are you talking about regarding ignoring mechanics too now? Feel free to point out a single instance where I said anyone should ignore mechanics. In fact your position leads to the ignoring of mechanics ironically if DPS too fast. So if anything, that is your position not mine.

Do you also wish to demand they all play Swiftsong so can run faster between parts and by proxy speed up your run? Are you going to try and imply that is important now too? Should every class eat food and pop pots throughout to maximize their DPS and survivability in all easy group content like easy 4-man dungeons, fate parties, B or A rank hunt parties and other very easy group content too? Seriously...it's easy content, get over it.

As long as it is being cleared that is the only thing that matters and it is being cleared even without songs. If a bard wishes to play a song when not required that's fine but it is also fine if not required and they do not.

WoD is not hardcore content, it does not require hardcore ethos and play styles, as long as it is getting cleared that is the only thing that matters for ALL other people present. Any other concerns are secondary to that and are not important, you want to clear it faster? So what? Feel free to put in more effort yourself but you do not get to demand everyone else has to clear it faster whether through playing a song or perfecting their rotations which is the same ideology your invoking here in your stance. That of doing more to clear it faster.

If everyone played like that no progress would be made? What? The content is being cleared without people caving into your demands, clearly progress is being made despite the melodramatic tone of your reply so that has no baring on whether or not they play a DPS boosting song in content that does not require they do so in order to clear it and progress...Your comment and stance would have more gravitas if was talking about hardcore content like coils for example or some EX trials but has none in regards to Labyrinth, ST and WoD.

I am going to leave this discussion there because I have said all I needed to say despite your ignoring of the points I made and clearly making things up which was never said by me to further your agenda. If your just going to keep resorting to lying and making things up then your not worth my time here.

"I'm an archer"

True story.

/popcorn thread