tanks with strength accessories

You wouldn't even need to see the numbers about the returns on parry; just go by the fact it's not consistent mitigation in a game where healers have to prepare for big hits and react to big hits as if you're not going to parry. Parrying a hit just means your healers will overcure you in most situations that matter.

In some situations its just fine, because yes you don't need 12k HP for a majority of content we have available to us.

But if you enjoy pulling a group of 12 mobs and expect your return in DMG to be better then my Holy bombs...you are both greatly mistaken and you are slowing us down; which I assume is the exact opposite of intent.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

In some situations its just fine, because yes you don't need 12k HP for a majority of content we have available to us.

But if you enjoy pulling a group of 12 mobs and expect your return in DMG to be better then my Holy bombs...you are both greatly mistaken and you are slowing us down; which I assume is the exact opposite of intent.

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With the stun from holy and proper mitigation, it's not an issue though. I've done big pulls (at least on older content) with my strength accessories on and have run into no problems. It's a complete non-issue if the tank has pentamelded accessories, since in that case they're getting huge amounts of strength *and* vitality.

Trash is a different matter and entirely situational. If you happen to run with a BLM/WHM combo in a party then there really isn't a need for STR since trash ends up dying in seconds.

Bosses on the other hand, full on STR. No cleric stanced healer is out DPSing a decent set of STR accessories/attributes. The less time the boss takes, the less damage going out overall. Besides, who needs 12k HP on 4 man content?

More HP means healer can stay in cleric stance longer. I've had to heal STR tanks that I couldn't even get my dots off on sch before i had to get out of cleric stance to keep them from dieing.

Holy stuns, a less geared tank is even more reason to holy since stunned enemies aren't attacking. The tank HP is a non-factor and people need to stop repeating the nonsense that 2000 less hp stops a healer from DPSing. Holy is not only DPS its a way to stop the tank taking so much damage.

And especially if it's a WAR since that DPS with the right cooldowns+overpower spam practically allows them to self-heal. If you are struggling to heal a tank they are not using the right cooldowns regardless of HP. 2000 more HP buys you 1-2 seconds until they drop, if damage is outpacing healing there is literally nothing you can do. If you can DPS its because the tank knows how to be effective with cooldowns, if you can't it's because they are terrible, nothing to do with how much HP they have.

well i do like challange then just do shit dmg and have tons of hp.
Why not speed it up abit?
cut down 2000+ hp gain 100+ more dps?

As a healer I definitely agree that a tank w/ str accessories is fine, even desirable (especially those pentamelded ilv110's). The only problem is, like all trends, it attracts just as many bad players as good players. And like most have mentioned, the extra vit from full tank accessories rarely (if ever) provide enough forgiveness for me to save them from being awful.

What the str accessories really do his highlight a tank's ability to play his or her class or not. <.<

Also, even with a tank with bare bottom HP, there are still good opportunities for healer dps during trash pulls. Holy, in particular. Just top off the tank then swiftcast the first holy without cleric stance to make use of the stun (if you're worried) then during the stun <stance> and throw out two more, then switch back. Regen will still be up and there should be plenty of time to start spamming cure.

Oh, and I thought str affected flash's aggro generation. Doesn't it? Obviously a paladin doesn't gain as much benefit from str during trash pulls as a WAR, but wouldn't it let them conserve some mp by flashing less, therefore allowing less time between pulls? Iono, just thinking outloud. But during boss fights paladin w/ str accessories and sword oath is awesome! Very unlikely anyone will pull hate, even with amazing dps, and with proper cooldown management I don't even miss the 20% dmg reduction from shield-o.

Honestly, with my gear as it is right now, DEF/MDEF/VIT-wise, I could wear no accessories at all and still tank 4-man content reasonably well. It's like some of the other folks have said, the extra STR/DET makes things go a touch quicker, helps build enmity better with fewer skills, and in 24-man content, allows me to DPS with my tank if some other tank's on an "I'm going to MT ALL OF THE THINGS" mentality that I really don't want to compete with.

If you were complaining about tanks in Coil not prioritizing VIT, I'd understand. But 4-man content and even 24-man content isn't really worth the energy to complain about prioritizing STR over VIT on accessories.

In four man content, if the group is pulling big, I expect my tank to last with a divine seal + regen, with holy spam, benediction if needed, more holy, and by then if the dps are worth their salt the pull will be dead. If the tank has enough hp to survive that I don't care how much str they stack.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

Honestly, with my gear as it is right now, DEF/MDEF/VIT-wise, I could wear no accessories at all and still tank 4-man content reasonably well. It's like some of the other folks have said, the extra STR/DET makes things go a touch quicker, helps build enmity better with fewer skills, and in 24-man content, allows me to DPS with my tank if some other tank's on an "I'm going to MT ALL OF THE THINGS" mentality that I really don't want to compete with.

If you were complaining about tanks in Coil not prioritizing VIT, I'd understand. But 4-man content and even 24-man content isn't really worth the energy to complain about prioritizing STR over VIT on accessories.

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if they plan on mt in wod on Cerberus or cloud they should have at least 10 k in defiance, otherwise it'll likely strain the only healer bothering to heal mt

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Originally Posted by Miaa

More HP means healer can stay in cleric stance longer. I've had to heal STR tanks that I couldn't even get my dots off on sch before i had to get out of cleric stance to keep them from dieing.

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That sounds more like a case of improper or nonexistent damage mitigation than it does lack of hps.

An extra 1.5k hps will only last a matter of seconds without it anyway.

VIT accessories will not significantly change how the healer operates. There is no "buffer" whether tank pulls one group of mobs or three; aggressive WHM will still holy and bene, conservative WHM will still sit on a pile of MP, and hypochondriac WHM will still overcure.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

And especially if it's a WAR since that DPS with the right cooldowns+overpower spam practically allows them to self-heal. If you are struggling to heal a tank they are not using the right cooldowns regardless of HP. 2000 more HP buys you 1-2 seconds until they drop, if damage is outpacing healing there is literally nothing you can do. If you can DPS its because the tank knows how to be effective with cooldowns, if you can't it's because they are terrible, nothing to do with how much HP they have.

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While the tanks skill is important, dont forget the healers is too. Ive died many times doing my normal large pull CD rotation because the healer just was bad, and yes, I asked if they wanted big pulls or not. A lot of times they forget about healing, or want to get just one more Holy off...despite the fact that the mobs are stun resistant...

Don't really care what the tank is wearing, I'll take what I can get if they know how to use their defensive CDs properly.

If I'm in a dungeon with out a caster, I'll just pull normal pulls with all Str. If there is a caster, I will switch gear sets depending on the pull coming up (more Vit for big pulls) and Str for small pulls and bosses.

T10 I wear i130 Vit bracelet, i130 Str necklace/ring, i120 Str ring, crafted i110 earrings. Though next week I'm gonna be full time OT and only tank my adds. So I might go a bit more Str maybe.

T11/12 crafted earrings, Vit bracelet/ring , Str choker/ ring. I can handle Revelation with 10.2k hit points. I'm probably over that now though due to some upgrades.

T13 OT is doable with 10.5k as the suggested amount, some go less once it's on farm. I am still currently at 11k in there cause those Shadows hurt a lot. Even with cool downs.

Hubby used to have three sets as WAR: STR, HP and CRIT. He would switch between each boss or pull after sizing the party up. Adds a lovely variety to the game if done right and it's FFXI-reminiscent. I say keep it up if you can but always gauge your party's capabilities first.

Probably been said, but the latest trends of dungeons (in 4 mans) have actual blockades where you need to kill the enemies to proceed - usually you'll have 2-3 groups of enemies before reaching it.

Unlike Ampador Keep where you could pull all the way to the first boss then pull all the way to the second boss door.

Guess that's why people are dropping out VIT because having way too much HP for the pulls that are done in dungeons.

You can blame OF for that with all the speedrun whining.

I rock all STR accessories for everything I do on PLD. But I only do Trials/Main Scenario/ and ST with it. I also get away with using Sword Oath a lot, when I can.......

The big reason why stacking Strength on a Tank is possible is because the difficulty of this game is much, much more in the mechanics than it is in the numbers. Even when a piece of content is given a Tank at the minimum iLvl for it, monsters are still doing far less damage than their target's HP pool would suggest that they can handle. So many bosses are of the "Tank Buster! auto auto auto Tank Buster!" pattern that healing isn't about HPS; it's about skillfully getting Stoneskin/Adlo/Tank Cooldown up to take the buster, heal the tank to full, and wait for the next one.

So, the devs really should decide which path they wish to take with Tank gear: lower HP gains to better match incoming damage or make everything hit harder to actually require the use of Fending gear. This tier has been unbelievably egregious with a Tank's ability to complete the hardest content without increasing their maximum HP by even a single point over what full i110 VIT would give them. You know something a bit funny when it's everyone else who needs more HP, not the Tanks...

There should be a study in term of overall party dps.

Case (1) - Tank with STR and minimum VIT threshold + Healer on DPS when possible
Case (2) - Tank with max VIT + Healer on DPS when possible

I feel that Case (2) may be possible to achieve higher overall team DPS as both healer can go on DPS more often.

STR accessories are fine in most endgame dungeons and when you're offtanking old content, but lowbies? Please no, just put on tanking gear, level sync will minimize any dps you would be pulling anyway.

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Originally Posted by WowSuchName

There should be a study in term of overall party dps.

Case (1) - Tank with STR and minimum VIT threshold + Healer on DPS when possible
Case (2) - Tank with max VIT + Healer on DPS when possible

I feel that Case (2) may be possible to achieve higher overall team DPS as both healer can go on DPS more often.

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Nope.

In an ideal group where everyone does their job and carry their weight, the 3 holies (because the 4th is stun resistant) + your BLM AoEs would have downed it before your Tank is going to die. Sometimes, the WHM doesn't even need to cut down on Holy and keep it on (4th or 5th) to speed up the process.

Your WAR throwing that Overpower DPS will help to keep clear the thrash so that your healer doesn't have to exit Cleric Stance to heal.

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

STR accessories are fine in most endgame dungeons and when you're offtanking old content, but lowbies? Please no, just put on tanking gear, level sync will minimize any dps you would be pulling anyway.

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It also minimizes vit gains. I find using full STR in <lv30 content allows much better hate generation, especially against new BRD who just don't understand what those numbers over the mobs heads mean...

Because 9,500 HP on my Paladin is stupid when almost every Primal, BCoB, SCoB, Dungeon boss can hardly tickle me anyway.

Final Coil? That's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Because 9,500 HP on my Paladin is stupid when almost every Primal, BCoB, SCoB, Dungeon boss can hardly tickle me anyway.

Final Coil? That's a different story.

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I still go full VIT on stuff like Ifrit EX. Not because of the damage, but because it's so easy to drop him too fast and make him enrage. Too high DPS was already a problem in i90 and stupidly easy to do in i130.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

I still go full VIT on stuff like Ifrit EX. Not because of the damage, but because it's so easy to drop him too fast and make him enrage. Too high DPS was already a problem in i90 and stupidly easy to do in i130.

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Haven't done Ifrit in a long time but it's one of the few Primals you wear full VIT and put your weapon away.

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Originally Posted by Miaa

More HP means healer can stay in cleric stance longer. I've had to heal STR tanks that I couldn't even get my dots off on sch before i had to get out of cleric stance to keep them from dieing.

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This. I obviously don't do maths, but STR tanks actually slow groups down when I play my scholar. With a full VIT tank I can almost stay in cleric stance the whole time and DPS constantly while Selene stands in fire. Not to hurt the tank pride, but I do more damage than you.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

This. I obviously don't do maths, but STR tanks actually slow groups down when I play my scholar. With a full VIT tank I can almost stay in cleric stance the whole time and DPS constantly while Selene stands in fire. Not to hurt the tank pride, but I do more damage than you.

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If you think your DPS is seriously affected at all by 2000 more HP I doubt your ability as a SCH.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

This. I obviously don't do maths, but STR tanks actually slow groups down when I play my scholar. With a full VIT tank I can almost stay in cleric stance the whole time and DPS constantly while Selene stands in fire. Not to hurt the tank pride, but I do more damage than you.

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I don't think the extra 450 hp a full vit tank has makes a difference. Talk about exaggeration? Switching from poetics accs to pentameld ilvl 110 I gained 90 str and lost like 450 hp....Also I have about 2% extra mitigation with blocks and parry's. So there is more to gain than there is to lose.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This is where I will have to respectfully disagree. One important note that everyone is forgetting is that these accessories aren't just Vitality bonuses, they're also granting significant gains to parrying skill which will greatly reduce the damage taken by a tank. Sacrifice one, and sacrifice both.

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Except...the parry stat is useless.

Next up on upside-down world: Cats marry Dogs, Pigs fly, Hell freezes over and a SCH does more DPS than a STR-geared warrior on a large pull with several mobs.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

This. I obviously don't do maths, but STR tanks actually slow groups down when I play my scholar. With a full VIT tank I can almost stay in cleric stance the whole time and DPS constantly while Selene stands in fire. Not to hurt the tank pride, but I do more damage than you.

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Funny, as I can stay in cleric easier on STR tanks than full vit tanks on my alt SCH due to mobs dieing faster. Pro-tip pop fey illu and ask tank to pop convalescence either pre pull or when they grabbed all the mobs, just need one Adlo crit (around 2k for me) for a 4k shield and DPS. Then eye for an eye, more useful on huge pulls than single bosses.

Now tanks who can't be bothered to use any def CDs? Doesn't matter if they in STR gear or full vit, they drop like a lead balloon on mass pulls.

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Originally Posted by Domira

I don't think the extra 200-300 hp a full vit tank has makes a difference. Talk about exaggeration? Switching from poetics accs to pentameld ilvl 110 I gained 90 str and lost like 200 hp....Also I have about 2% extra mitigation with blocks and parry's. So there is more to gain than there is to lose.

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it's like 2k, not 300
but pentameld gets best of both

because anybody can play whatever damn way it likes, and still pull and keep aggro

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

it's like 2k, not 300
but pentameld gets best of both

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Currently, i130 Fending accessories each give 6 Vitality over i110. Adding up the entire right side, it is 30 Vitality. Pentamelding i110 accessories gives a maximum of 90 STR at the cost of 30 VIT you would have if you used i130 fending. This is a loss of 450 HP maximum health. If you do these accessories and nothing else a Pally will have 9500 health while still wrecking things.

As Domira stated, melding accessories really does give the best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Currently, i130 Fending accessories each give 6 Vitality over i110. Adding up the entire right side, it is 30 Vitality. Pentamelding i110 accessories gives a maximum of 90 STR at the cost of 30 VIT you would have if you used i130 fending. This is a loss of 450 HP maximum health. If you do these accessories and nothing else a Pally will have 9500 health while still wrecking things.

As Domira stated, melding accessories really does give the best of both worlds.

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Thanks for the correct number! Yeah 450 hp isn't a lot at all. Its not even noticeable, but that extra 90 str sure is.

95% of this game requires 7000 or less HP for a PLD tank.
Turns 10-12 you want 8000 max HP.
Turn 13 you want ~9200 for a first clear, 8500 for Farm and great groups sub 8000 is fine.

There is a ton of room for STR accessories while still meeting the HP requirements.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Currently, i130 Fending accessories each give 6 Vitality over i110. Adding up the entire right side, it is 30 Vitality. Pentamelding i110 accessories gives a maximum of 90 STR at the cost of 30 VIT you would have if you used i130 fending. This is a loss of 450 HP maximum health. If you do these accessories and nothing else a Pally will have 9500 health while still wrecking things.

As Domira stated, melding accessories really does give the best of both worlds.

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yes that's what I mean
and the 2 k diff is if you don't meld, as in tome acc