No love for V-day.

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Originally Posted by Marquiss

Western players are so needy and easily offended, jeez.

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http://i58.tinypic.com/2mryur8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

stuff
Y'know, unless you're a homophobe. In which case no one gives a crap how comfortable you are.

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My wife and I may be part of a majority of heterosexual couples, but she and I are still underrepresented because we're interracial.
We would also like to be represented more as much as gays and other couples are, and it's not going to hurt anyone either.

y'know unless you're all racist and hate black/white relationships/racemixing/racetraitors. In that case no one cares about how comfortable you are.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

Are you trying to condescend to me without taking in the context of the initial post as well as mine which was it was a direct response to? Stop reading only what you want to read.

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I read what you wrote and it was a mess. Hence the quote, and the reply. Asking for representation is a much needed reality check for the people who are still oblivious (or refuse to believe) to some people's existence and a way to make your game more inclusive for all your playerbase. Zero agendas or ideals at play, let alone guilt-tripping. But more importantly, it requires 0 effort and has no drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

I may be part of a majority of heterosexual, but my wife and I are still underrepresented because we're interracial.
We would also like to be represented more as much as gays and other couples are, and it's not going to hurt anyone either.

y'know unless you're all racist and hate black/white relationships/racemixing/racetraitors.

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You're right, it wouldn't hurt to just have more representation overall for minorities. But this thread is specifically about (and being bashed for) homosexual representation in a valentine's event. And thus my post was directed at all the people who are bashing on the OP simply because he (and others) were disappointed there was no same-sex representation within an event dedicated to love.

Why is this even an issue? It's the players that make the event, not the quest.

The quest NPCs aren't the end-all-be-all representation of relationships in this game, and you can only do so much with them to actually represent everyone as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Marquiss

Why is this even an issue? It's the players that make the event, not the quest.

The quest NPCs aren't the end-all-be-all representation of relationships in this game, and you can only do so much with them to actually represent everyone as a whole.

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The gay couple in the WP HM questline were not even major NPCs nor were we ever going to see them again afterwards (that we know of yet, anyway). Why were they able to give representation there, in what is arguably an even smaller and less noticeable role than the Valentione event, yet give absolutely no representation whatsoever for the event meant to be about love? Please don't act as if SE's hands were tied on this due to some arbitrary restraints.

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

interracial.

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I don't really think this is even close to underrepresented in the game, though. In fact I think at least one of the couples in the quest, while technically the same race while within the game's ruleset, are different subraces. It mostly just doesn't seem to matter and is never brought up as something special. Hell, in the main story alone We have Thancred's crush on F'lhammin and Moenbryda's crush on Urianger. Race only seems to matter at all to the Garleans, Ishgardians, and non-Gridanian Duskwights. And in the case of the Ishgardians it seems less to do with race, specifically, and more to do with familial lineage, which is naturally connected to race because...well, family lineage.
Mixed race couples are also something along the same cultural lines of being "foreign" to Japanese people, who I must impress upon everyone is the nationality of the people responsible for much of the development of this game, as well. They exist, it's acknowledged they exist, but %-wise there are fewer interracial couples in Japan than there are colorblind people. I think it's something like only 2% of the population of Japan isn't Japanese, and 5% of Japanese males are colorblind.
It's not out of malice that you're not recognized, it's just not something they consciously think about because it's not something that comes up regularly in a (mostly) racially homogeneous nation.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

The gay couple in the WP HM questline were not even major NPCs nor were we ever going to see them again afterwards (that we know of yet, anyway). Why were they able to give representation there, in what is arguably an even smaller and less noticeable role than the Valentione event, yet give absolutely no representation whatsoever for the event meant to be about love? Please don't act as if SE's hands were tied on this due to some arbitrary restraints.

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As I addressed before, the Japanese idea of Valentine's Day involves women giving things to men. The love connection is there, but the target audience for advertising in Japan on Valentine's day is women. While women giving things to women isn't unheard of, it's not where the mentality of the holiday lies for the Japanese.

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

Yes, because there are Duskwights (darkskinned) and Wildwoods (lightskin), Dunesfolk and plainsfolk, Seeker of the sun and seeker of the moon, etc.
Just because it might not be the common black and white doesn't mean that there isn't a form of discrimination/stereotyping, there's still a distinction via name, skin color,class,creed and they judge each other based on clans.

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In fantasy worlds, racial discrimination as we understand it on earth typically occurs where the differences are at their greatest: not by clan or skin color, but by comparative anatomy.

As humans, we're going to align with Human sooner than Elf because we look more akin to Human than Elf. It's primitive and makes perfect evolutionary sense, but it doesn't matter what color the elf is. The nitpicky differences between sub-races melt away in the presence of another primary race.

eg. A Midlander, Highlander and Doman know they are superficially different from each other, but they are altogether more similar than a Duskwight and a Wildswood. If you put a sample of each clan into a box with limited resources, it's highly likely the Hyur clans and the Elezen clans would bond with their respective races first to secure them--before, naturally, turning on themselves.

Rarely do you see fantasy worlds with multiple intelligent races where conventional, real-world "intra-racial" discrimination exists. You still have other divisive factors like class, sex, religion, cultural practices, property disputes, magical curses and old-fashioned ignorance.

eg. in FFXIV, you're far more likely to see a Hyur--NPC or PC--call out a Lalafell on racial grounds than another Hyur, irrespective of their clan. And let's not forget the various Beastmen, who have even greater differences than the non-Beastmen races and are largely ostracized for it.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I read what you wrote and it was a mess. Hence the quote, and the reply. Asking for representation is a much needed reality check for the people who are still oblivious (or refuse to believe) to some people's existence and a way to make your game more inclusive for all your playerbase. Zero agendas or ideals at play, let alone guilt-tripping. But more importantly, it requires 0 effort and has no drawbacks.

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What is more important, good storytelling or filling equality quotas? When you tell a developer "Oh and include someone gay, trans, inter-racial, and colored people to avoid offending someone" in an already tight story you are in fact dampening with the creative process. So there is no such thing as "No drawbacks" or zero effort.

Besides, you're talking like there isn't representation anyways, which there is plenty elsewhere. Last I checked the entire LGTB community still accounted for less than 5% of the population. If you want real representation like you or so called, having 1 in 3 couples represented as gay would actually have been an over-representation.

Anyways, SE really shouldn't care about offending a very small minority over idiocy. And I'm not talking about LGBT or interracial or any other minority here, I'm talking about the easily butthurt "I'm offended by anything" minority. If you look around most people (LGBT Included) couldn't give a damn about representation. You are acting like it's some sort of big issue still.

i love it when this thread comes up
OMG NO GAY CHARECTERS

se throws in a gay couple for us to interact with
OMG THERES GAY CHARACTERS I"M OFFENDED

event comes up no gay characters (will agree with the missed chance on this one)
OMG NO GAY I AM SO OFFENDED


look, as much as people love to b*tch and moan about this its one of these things where if they do people will complain and if they don't people will complain, yes they should of added a gay couple or lesbian couple and it is a missed chance, but when dealing with different people with different views AROUNDS THE WORLD, it becomes a tightrope where either side will love you or wish for your head, SE has given us gay characters to interact with both a quest focus and random NPC's and even one NPC from an event (the rebirth event)

long story short here boys and girls and all you in between, people will complain weather they do it or not, and honestly you shouldn't care if say thancrid is gay or straight. or if minfillia is a lesbian or heterosexual. its a game, we need to care more about there personality's and the way they act with us, not if you have a chance with one of them in a fanfic you wrote.

i swear this is like the 30th thread about this since 2.0

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I read what you wrote and it was a mess. Hence the quote, and the reply. Asking for representation is a much needed reality check for the people who are still oblivious (or refuse to believe) to some people's existence and a way to make your game more inclusive for all your playerbase. Zero agendas or ideals at play, let alone guilt-tripping. But more importantly, it requires 0 effort and has no drawbacks.

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Stop talking about reality because you clearly have no concept by the blatant ignorance of text yet twisting of my words. However, you still think you have argumentative high-ground to continue to condescend to myself and others here in disagreement with the OP.

There is a blatant sob-story in the OP. "I'm alone, so I'm sad. Your game doesn't represent my ideologies, so I'm more sad now." The ideal? Being homosexual. I'm not going further into discussing the morality of whether anyone thinks it's right or wrong, because that's not what this thread was posted for. The developers don't -have- to make the game inclusive for everyone. Saying they should is wanting to force your ideals on other people. If you think it's as easy and just plopping homosexual ideals in front of other people who might not agree with it for religious and/or cultural reasons, then you're just ignorant.

Now please, stop derailing the topic.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

Stop talking about reality because you clearly have no concept by the blatant ignorance of text yet twisting of my words. However, you still think you have argumentative high-ground to continue to condescend to myself and others here in disagreement with the OP.

There is a blatant sob-story in the OP. "I'm alone, so I'm sad. Your game doesn't represent my ideologies, so I'm more sad now." The ideal? Being homosexual. I'm not going further into discussing the morality of whether anyone thinks it's right or wrong, because that's not what this thread was posted for. The developers don't -have- to make the game inclusive for everyone. Saying they should is wanting to force your ideals on other people. If you think it's as easy and just plopping homosexual ideals in front of other people who might not agree with it for religious and/or cultural reasons, then you're just ignorant.

Now please, stop derailing the topic.

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There are a lot of things that by any modern standard would be considered horrifically backwards that have been part of cultures for a long time. Culture is no excuse for marginalizing human beings or causing them suffering, in any civilized society it simply cannot be. Cultures change to adapt to the world around them, the more aware they become of other people the more they change. Gay people exist, they have always existed and as far into the future as we can reasonably predict they will always exist. Those that refuse to adapt, will fall into obscurity or perish as every one of them have before. That's the nature of humanity and our defining feature in the animal kingdom, we adapt.

"The children of Eorzea are as trees in a grove, bending to the wind like the willow or bearing it like the oak. Yet live how we might, the wind shall blow."

Regardless of how you react to change, change will come.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

Besides, you're talking like there isn't representation anyways, which there is plenty elsewhere. Last I checked the entire LGTB community still accounted for less than 5% of the population. If you want real representation like you or so called, having 1 in 3 couples represented as gay would actually have been an over-representation.

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The OP was actually asking for 2/3 of the couples to be same-sex couples, one M/M and one F/F.

This was my first thought here, that it would be an over-representation just for the sake of it.

...groan...

Seriously..? Look I'm all for being free with your sexuality. Gay, bi, straight... it shouldn't matter what you are. The point is your sexuality doesn't define YOU. Nor should it define anyone. This argument is like a straight person saying 'there aren't enough straight couples in the game', since very few are genuinely tied together in any meaningful way.

The big question you need to ask yourself is do you want equality, which I hope most people strive for, or do you just want special treatment? There's a really big difference, and posts like this seem far too much like the latter to take them even remotely seriously. If they do add gay couples into a valentines event, fine... great. But complaints about their omission just makes you sound like a needy child who wants the attention.

Welcome to the modern age. We don't need to know that you're gay, bi or straight. It doesn't matter unless you're trying to use FFXIV as a dating site. You're allowed to have a personality, so act like you have one.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

There are a lot of things that by any modern standard would be considered horrifically backwards that have been part of cultures for a long time. Culture is no excuse for marginalizing human beings or causing them suffering, in any civilized society it simply cannot be. Cultures change to adapt to the world around them, the more aware they become of other people the more they change. Gay people exist, they have always existed and as far into the future as we can reasonably predict they will always exist. Those that refuse to adapt, will fall into obscurity or perish as every one of them have before. That's the nature of humanity and our defining feature in the animal kingdom, we adapt.

Regardless of how you react to change, change will come.

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So if a society doesn't accept a change for whatever reason, they're suddenly not civilized? Just because something has existed, doesn't always mean one way or the other either.

Frankly, this has nothing to do with causing anyone suffering. It's a video game; an artistic vision of a group's creation. If the lack of a homosexual representation in a fictional reality holiday event causes you suffering, you've got bigger problems than to be on here trying to justify them. Because otherwise, it's been stated multiple times, they is the acceptance of a marriage-like ceremony in this game as well the Wanderer's Palace couple is already in the game.

You couldn't have missed the point further wherein I mentioned culture and religion in the first place; it's a business.

Also, whenever human biology adapts, then you can actually use nature as a solid argument. Just remember though, change can go a variety of ways. Some you won't always like.

The fact that this is such a big issue means that you should maybe step away from the game and sort out your life priorities. If you need an online game to fill in the hole that's missing in your life in regards to whatever problem you may have, you probably have some issues.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

So if a society doesn't accept a change for whatever reason, they're suddenly not civilized? Just because something has existed, doesn't always mean one way or the other either.

Frankly, this has nothing to do with causing anyone suffering. It's a video game; an artistic vision of a group's creation. If the lack of a homosexual representation in a fictional reality holiday event causes you suffering, you've got bigger problems than to be on here trying to justify them. Because otherwise, it's been stated multiple times, they is the acceptance of a marriage-like ceremony in this game as well the Wanderer's Palace couple is already in the game.

You couldn't have missed the point further wherein I mentioned culture and religion in the first place; it's a business.

Also, whenever human biology adapts, then you can actually use nature as a solid argument. Just remember though, change go a variety of ways. Some you won't always like.

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I think you sort of completely missed the point, just because something is "culture" does not make it a justification for bigotry and mistreatment of human beings. Culture (or for that matter religion) is not a shield that makes any and all behavior acceptable, regardless of how long it has been practiced.

As for adaptation, biology is not the only way humans adapt. We can also change our habits, behaviors and even our social constructs to adapt to changes in the world around us. We have reached a point in human history where we even have the option to change our environment if we so choose.

I'm well aware it's a business, and had you read my previous post in this thread you'd know I'm actually quite content with just the changes they've made already.

All I am seeing is special snowflake syndrome.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

And even more so with the fact that in the meantime we've gotten the Ceremony of Eternal Bonding, a "marriage system", which has no restriction whatsoever on either gender or race. Please be more mindful with such things, SE.

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Is this a joke? "We got something, so now we want more, please be mindful." - It's like you're suggesting they should've just stuck to M/F at all times, forever, to avoid this.

There is same sex eternal bonding and there is a gay couple in the storyline for a new dungeon, and you are upset that 3-4 couples at Valentine's day just so happen to be straight? And you're suggesting 1 m/f, 1 m/m and 1f/f - a 2:1 homo to hetero ratio. Do you really think your request is reasonable?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Is this a joke? "We got something, so now we want more, please be mindful." - It's like you're suggesting they should've just stuck to M/F at all times, forever, to avoid this.

There is same sex eternal bonding and there is a gay couple in the storyline for a new dungeon, and you are upset that 3-4 couples at Valentine's day just so happen to be straight? And you're suggesting 1 m/f, 1 m/m and 1f/f - a 2:1 homo to hetero ratio. Do you really think your request is reasonable?

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There really isn't any good reason they can't or shouldn't add more eventually. In this particular event for this particular year, with disposable and nameless characters we will likely never see again it honestly doesn't bother me. Sometime in the future I'd like to see maybe a lasting character or couple, and maybe a few npcs here and there. I'm happy that SE has taken the time to include it as much as they have already, having openly gay characters at all is really a first for the final fantasy series and a pleasant change of pace.

A more pressing matter.. Where are the Human x Animal couples no representation.. Those Hedgemoles... hnnnnnnnnnng...

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Originally Posted by Joeking

A more pressing matter.. Where are the Human x Animal couples no representation.. Those Hedgemoles... hnnnnnnnnnng...

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What about Lalafell x Amalj'aa?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What about Lalafell x Amalj'aa?

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Tataramu x Nezul

He certainly did not cry tears of joy. Goggles fogged up they did.

this thread is a great honeypot for garbage people lol

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Originally Posted by Kyros

What is more important, good storytelling or filling equality quotas? When you tell a developer "Oh and include someone gay, trans, inter-racial, and colored people to avoid offending someone" in an already tight story you are in fact dampening with the creative process.

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No it doesn't, this is nonsense. If Thancred were hitting on men instead of women would the main storyline be affected in any way? Nope. If Wawarukka, Kokomo and Mamajaru in the weaver storyline had been all men or women, would it have changed anything in regards to Wawarukka's feelings of inadequacy because he was poor? Nope. Would Minfilia lead the Scions any differently than she is now if she were a transwoman? Nope. It's exactly what they did with Wanderer's Place HM and it wasn't really any different from other HM dungeon storyline, was it.

It's only a strain on your creative process if you have difficulties imagining minorities as actual people and writing them a such.

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There is a blatant sob-story in the OP. "I'm alone, so I'm sad. Your game doesn't represent my ideologies, so I'm more sad now.

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You clearly have no idea what you are talking about since you insist on talking about ideologies as if this matter is an opinion someone can agree or disagree on instead of a fact of life that you'll have to come to terms with sooner or later, so I won't reply to you anymore.

Haven't read through all the comments, but if you didn't read through the story for Wanderer's Palace HM, maybe you should. I know it isn't part of the event, but it is clearly a same sex couple in the story for that.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Stuff

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Pls Uninstall

No one in the game is trying to offend or discriminate you (quite the opposite if you did actually read what the event NPCs said), so let the writers do their job. You don't buy a [insert random author] book and go "not enough X couples!", so don't do it here. Specially when you've already gotten some of the things that you asked.

Anyway, it's a game. Keep real life politics, religion, ideologies, etc. out of it, please.

Thank you.

As a girl, I am offended the way OP wrote the title, V-day. We have Valentine day, not V-day. And you know what else V represent, it is of a girl most precious spot and I feel very sad/upset that such thing is right in the title, where it is so obvious to be seen.Clearly OP insinuating something hidden in his title and that drives me nut, just because.Therefore I demand the OP to change the title at this very instant and its effectiveness starts ASAP.

I'm going to be offended if I don't get cookies out of this.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If Thancred were hitting on men instead of women would the main storyline be affected in any way?

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The entire subplot concerning him and F'lhammin would have to be changed.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

The entire subplot concerning him and F'lhammin would have to be changed.

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Bisexuality exists.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Bisexuality exists.

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Yes, it does. Which would mean your statement would have to read:

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If Thancred were hitting on men and women would the main storyline be affected in any way?

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In which case, the answer would of course be no. It might even be more entertaining. However, you said

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If Thancred were hitting on men instead of women would the main storyline be affected in any way?

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In which case, the answer is yes. Because there's at least one instance of this being relevant.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Bisexuality exists.

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Pls Uninstall

Though it's been hinted at by a couple people I think this deserves a brief cultural explanation.

Valentine's Day is celebrated in Japan as a holiday where females give (traditionally after making) chocolate to males. The holiday still has a romantic context, somewhat, but it's mostly just celebrated in exactly this way. A girl in Japan might give chocolates to her entire class. A woman, to her entire office or team of coworkers. One month later, on "White Day," the males who received chocolate give a gift back to the same females.

This is why last year's event had us trading chocolates with the opposite gender. And it's why, this year, all three of your NPC clients are female while the recipients are male. That's what the holiday entails in Japan, disconnected from necessarily the idea of romantic love.

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Originally Posted by Hali

Yoshi be like -

http://i.imgur.com/7Svaws2.jpg
"Not this fucking thread again."

Why do people think that any form of media has to add in minorities to fill some some of hidden equality quota?

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

This guilt-tripping over the lack of homosexual relationships in the holiday event is offensive in itself. You should stop being ignorant about how you want to force SE and everyone else who plays to accept your ideals.

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This and this.

Seriously I am fine with homosexuals but all these crap is making the LGBT community at large look terribad.

Half of the new raid grp I joined recently are homosexuals and they wouldn't even give much of a shit to little things like this and be so butthurt about it.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about since you insist on talking about ideologies as if this matter is an opinion someone can agree or disagree on instead of a fact of life that you'll have to come to terms with sooner or later, so I won't reply to you anymore.

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Choosing to ignore what I explained, (yet again), as well as telling me I -have- to come to terms with homosexuals existing, as if its existence is a deniable fact, to try and have some sort of misguided last word is sad. You said there was no sob story, I elaborated, and now you're strawmanning again. You really aren't contributing anything at this point because you're still, (several hours later), only reading what you want to read and trying to force acceptance of the ideology that this whole thread is really based around.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

The gay couple in the WP HM questline were not even major NPCs nor were we ever going to see them again afterwards (that we know of yet, anyway). Why were they able to give representation there, in what is arguably an even smaller and less noticeable role than the Valentione event, yet give absolutely no representation whatsoever for the event meant to be about love? Please don't act as if SE's hands were tied on this due to some arbitrary restraints.

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I'd argue that their role is larger and more noticeable. Everyone is going to do the quest to unlock WP HM. In a week, nobody will ever do this Valentione's quest again.

Tumblr is leaking again.