Translation Team: Please stop doing this...

I love the old english and its always fun to learn new words, so I too have to disagree with the OP.

SE must needs create a dislike button.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

food for thought

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Oh very cool, thanks! :D

Coincidentally, my fiancée is British (though from the Midlands, not the North) and I had no clue this was a part of common speech anywhere in England lol

I don't mind it, but it does seem like some people go a little over board with it, the main culprit... Urianger Augurelt!

A snip from primal awakening...

"Lest thou wonder, this maiden is of our order. Thus did the Antecedent straightways consent that thou shouldst assist her howsoever thou mayest. As soon as thou art able, hie thee to Wineport, where thy petitioner doth await thee even now. Thou shalt for a certainty find her visage strikingly familiar."

It's not that i don't understand him, i'm just outta breath by the time im done reading it a second (maybe even a third) time lol.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

http://i.imgur.com/b9J7It4.jpg

I understand it's a "fantasy" game but there's no need to use this really old and quite frustrating to read English...

please phase this out and start using normal words... Portendeth? I speak excellent English but I still had to google this word (even google failed to understand)

The whole limsa pirate thing was frustrating enough, sure it was cool but you're putting way too much effort into it... if you expect me to read all these quests at least make an effort to phase this weird ye olde english style out of the game and start using normal english.

Stop using "Thy" and "Thou" ...

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I agree.

Here Translation team, this is what Ramuh should really say! The OP no doubt agrees!

"Oi blud, y u getin rude? Dont git rude fam, ill murk u innit, u dun know."

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

the phrase anyroad was the original anyway, since for back in that day what ever your choice was it was you on your road of dissections, any way became more popular because it didn't need to be related to the road of fate or any other type of metaphor and was more understood as well, basically anyway = anyroad just different means of saying it :D


its still pretty common, to the north of England and Scotland

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This. Northerner here. I use anyroad and anyway more or less interchangeably.

I want them to introduce a character that does nothing but speak in Cockney rhyming slang. See how fast that hurts people's brains.

nnnggggg... /flails

It's not ancient English, it's definitely not Old English. It's an easy to read version of Middle English. Closer to what Shakespeare and the English the Puritans spoke (Early Modern period, just before they finally got rid of the -eths for the good of us all >< ).

Old English (Beowulf opening lines)

HWÆT, WE GAR-DEna in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas, syððanærest wearð
feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum weorðmyndum þah,
oð þæt him æghwylc ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan; þæt wæs god cyning!

Good luck reading that!

Middle English (Canterbury Tales Prologue)

Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye
(so priketh hem nature in hir corages);

Modern readers have a chance to get used to reading this form of English.


Personally, I think it's too heavy handed in this game. And this is coming from someone who loves language history and evolution. You can portray characters as more formal without spackling the -eths to every verb. Having some ancient primal speak this way... ok, believable. Urianger? Unnecessary (totally imo).

The citizens of Limsa can also convey their 'culture' without being nearly completely unreadable. If native speakers of English have to puzzle out the words, I can only imagine non-native speakers just have to give up. There's a balance that needs to happen. Add a little hint of the accent, please don't be quite so heavy handed with it. ^^;

On a side note, if a game ever comes out that uses Old English as the spoken dialog with subtitles in modern English, I will go buy it right away. :3

I agree with OP somewhat. Although it could be more to due with a ADD issue I have. It's hard enough to keep my attention on the story. But when I start having to concentrate to make out words I'm not use to seeing it gets frustrating. I wouldn't want SE to change it sense I'm sure at least half the user base enjoys it. They go out of there way to make sure there's many different languages. So maybe they can add one more. Clear to read English, for those of us that maybe getting a little older and find it difficult to follow what some of these guys are saying. I think if I was back in my teens I'd probably have no issues, IDK. But it is hard for me when they start using words like that.

This brings up a question for me now. Sense we have these different English speaking people in the game. Is it similar in the other languages. ESP Japanese? Like do Japanese players get to *cough*enjoy*cough* the same hard to read sentences that we do, in their own language? Or do they not have to deal with that at all? I'm sure with voice over's they could do that, but is it as easy to convey accents in their language as it is in ours?

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Pirate speak is really the only thing I have issue with when it comes to our localization. It's to the point I don't read any Limsa quests and gave up on Rogue quests as well. Too annoying to read.
http://www.xivnomnom.com/wp-content/...calization.png

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Agreed. The old English doesn't bother me, but Baderon's incoherent babble make me cringe every time. It is so bad it isn't even worth reading any of the quests.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

http://i.imgur.com/b9J7It4.jpg

I understand it's a "fantasy" game but there's no need to use this really old and quite frustrating to read English...

please phase this out and start using normal words... Portendeth? I speak excellent English but I still had to google this word (even google failed to understand) The whole limsa pirate thing was frustrating enough, sure it was cool but you're putting way too much effort into it... if you expect me to read all these quests at least make an effort to phase this weird ye olde english style out of the game and start using normal english.

Stop using "Thy" and "Thou" ...

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I for one like it, you should see it as a continued education of the english language that you say you speak so well. Not sure what is that you dont like ? to get some information for your own personal culture or the fact that you have to google to get the meaning of the words or the fact that you are faced with the fact that what you thought you mastered is inot exactly so. I mean not knowing isnt a fault persisting into that ignorance is just being silly.

Either ways, please people that translate DO NOT stop in making these translations as they teach people a few things and is never lost and is a pleasure to read.

thanks for the time in translating into something worth reading rather then have some translations with words used in sms and lose all their meaning.

Mei

PS : english isnt my mothertongue but I do really enjoy reading old literature, this is very enjoyable even if I have to go and find the meaning of the words.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Urianger? Unnecessary (totally imo).

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Honestly, given his personality, I get the impression that Urianger's archaic dialogue is a deliberate affectation he adopted while studying his dusty tomes. He's totally an ancient lore nerd; I'll bet dollars to donuts that, back in his high-school/college days (or Eorzean equivalent), he started talking the way he does to get geek cred among his scholarly peers. I very much doubt he was raised to speak the way he does.

As a bonus, he's clearly an introvert, and the complicated dialogue likely intimidates riff-raff that would otherwise pester him. Not that that stops individuals like Moenbryda... :D

I find it pretty impressive that the translation team can not only translate it, but then give it's own style in English that perfectly suits the world. They're a very talented bunch.

I enjoy the use of old, or as someone else has stated in this thread, middle, English that is used by some of the NPCs. It really gives more personality to the NPCs and adds to the feeling of immersion while adventuring in Eorzea.

Thats why i have to keep this game in the german language.. it was soo annoying to have it in english for the light farming, i really love roleplaying, but this old english isnt giving me any feeling at all, its just annoying too read, especially if english isnt your first language.

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Originally Posted by Drako

This brings up a question for me now. Sense we have these different English speaking people in the game. Is it similar in the other languages. ESP Japanese? Like do Japanese players get to *cough*enjoy*cough* the same hard to read sentences that we do, in their own language? Or do they not have to deal with that at all?

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No the Japanese don't have to "deal with it" like English players have to. Many who can read the Japanese say that while there's some archaic words here or there it's NO WHERE near as heavy handed and over the top like we've got it. It's so bad people have had to read up fan translations of the Japanese version merely to keep up with the story.


The localization never really bothered me. In fact I enjoy reading every single quest and leve I did as I never want to miss out on any details. And I always get a good chuckle when I find a pop-culture reference. But I've also never seen SO many complaints at a games dialog before. I'm not just talking about the forums but third party reviewers who call out the localization as a negative.

While I don't want to see the teams efforts abandoned or ret-coned. I do hope they at least keep the complaints in consideration when translating Heavensward just to encourage more players to enjoy the dialog. It's funny how in interviews Yoshi-P is always saying how he wants XIV to be accessible to players of all kinds of backgrounds yet the translators go out of their way to verbally slap newcomers who so foolishly choose Limsa as their starting point.

I'll agree that the localization team needs to tone some of the accents and whatnot down, but this Ramuh line is really a poor example. That's perfectly readable--it just sounds a little cheesy.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, given his personality, I get the impression that Urianger's archaic dialogue is a deliberate affectation he adopted while studying his dusty tomes. He's totally an ancient lore nerd; I'll bet dollars to donuts that, back in his high-school/college days (or Eorzean equivalent), he started talking the way he does to get geek cred among his scholarly peers. I very much doubt he was raised to speak the way he does.

As a bonus, he's clearly an introvert, and the complicated dialogue likely intimidates riff-raff that would otherwise pester him. Not that that stops individuals like Moenbryda... :D

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Hm, it's a stretch... :/
To me, it seems more that the translation team wanted Urianger to be stuffy and pedantic, but didn't realize you could convey this manner of speaking without relying on fakey-fakey "ye olde english".


English has a formal/polite mode. We just don't realize it is separate from our informal mode of speaking (unless it's extreme: "I hope you are well, Mr. Anderson." as opposed to "sup dawg".) since we flow in and out of it so easily in our normal method of interacting with others. Going in for that well-paying job interview is a good example of when folks use 'formal' English. I'm just saying I would personally have preferred Urianger to sound more like a professor of law from a university than a walking copy of the King James bible. :/

(To add: I have the voice overs set to Japanese. Urianger's voice is this calm, slow, drawn out, low purr. To see the text dialogue in Puritan-ese... the disconnect is real, y'all. =_= )

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Hm, it's a stretch... :/
To me, it seems more that the translation team wanted Urianger to be stuffy and pedantic, but didn't realize you could convey this manner of speaking without relying on fakey-fakey "ye olde english".

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Agreed. Urianger's olde english is way over the top. His voice acting, combined with a stiff manner of speaking, could have conveyed this sentiment just fine I think.

I find it a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of the game. I don't care for it even if I do understand everything. I never liked Middle English when I had to study all the works in school and I certainly do not like it now.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

please phase this out and start using normal words... Portendeth? I speak excellent English but I still had to google this word (even google failed to understand)

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So merely because the word was written in a rather archaic style, portendeth, you failed to understand its meaning as portends? Or is your English knowledge merely not as excellent as you believe it is?

Portends may not be a frequent day-to-day word after all, however it's not that uncommon of a word. Just search through newspaper entries for one and you'll encounter the word occasionally.

I actually agree with the OP on a lot of dialog in this game, such as the rampant use of "mayhap," "mummery" and other words that have fallen out of usage in the English language for a good 200 years...
Ramuh and Urianger are the exception.
They both consistently use antiquated language in Japanese AND English, so their translation is pretty spot-on.
I've ranted before about how the language used in this game's english localization is both linguistically impenetrable for people with smaller vocabularies and second language learners (hell I'm about to graduate with a minor in Linguistics and even *I* have to look up a lot of these words since they're less commonly used than 20s slang)
Plus it builds too much "distance" between the audience and the characters, and between the voice actors and the characters. It's hard to build a connection with a character who reads like a novel from 200 years ago.
But Urianger and Ramuh, and also a certain rather large and in charge character from 2.5, are SUPPOSED to use antiquated linguistics in both languages. It's just that because EVERYONE already uses them, to make it stand out they have to use even MORE antiquated linguistics.

So in other words.. SE has to dumb down the game for the casual gamer, and your suggesting/requesting that they now dumb down the language used by the NPCs for the casual English speakers. I shake my head.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

So in other words.. SE has to dumb down the game for the casual gamer, and your suggesting/requesting that they now dumb down the language used by the NPCs for the casual English speakers. I shake my head.

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I argue not for the "casuals." I argue for those who don't speak English as their first language. These people are NOT necessarily casuals and make up a larger percentage of the world population than native English speakers. And if even some native speakers are having trouble with the vocabulary, you can bet your life some non-native speakers are probably having just as much if not more difficulty.

"English, motherf***er! Do you speak it?!"

That's all you have to say and they'll smarten up and talk properly

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Originally Posted by Natashio

So in other words.. SE has to dumb down the game for the casual gamer, and your suggesting/requesting that they now dumb down the language used by the NPCs for the casual English speakers. I shake my head.

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Not necessarily.

Let's use

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portendeth

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as an example. Portends, itself, is an infrequently used word anymore. You don't need to add on the awkwardly archaic -eth to the end to make it sound MORE 'old' or 'stuffy' or 'pretentious' or whatever effect they're going for. I'm all for expanding folks' vocabularies! Don't make it unnecessarily frustrating to readers. :/

And cutting back on the "Limsan accent" will help everyone. It's not dumbing down anything. The dialog is terrible, nearly unreadable English. >< I like the idea of it, not the implementation. :/

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Originally Posted by Sadana

And cutting back on the "Limsan accent" will help everyone. It's not dumbing down anything. The dialog is terrible, nearly unreadable English. >< I like the idea of it, not the implementation. :/

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What's weird is, given one of the only examples of dialogue choices with more than "Yes/No" in the game is a Rogue/Ninja quest, apparently our characters speak with a Limsa accent.

I like the flair of the localization. Even if you can't make heads or tails of it (mainly lominsa talk) you can always check your journal and it gives you a nice summary.

About pirate speech in Limsa.
This dialogue is from the "Into the Dark (Limsa)" 1.18 Grand Company quest

(Astalicia)

Hasthwab: Ye say 'tis passage into the reekin' depths of Dzemael Dark'old that ye seek? An' 'ow do I know ye aint' one o' them 'Cuda lapdogs, come t' lick me poxy arse an' call it cherries? There be those what think they can waltz umolested 'tixt our guild and that of the 'Cudas. Mark me: right gay be the babe what suckles at both 'is mother's paps at once - but where will 'e be when the fountains run dry, eh?

(Tell me, was that convincing? I'm always afraid that one of these days I'm going to forget to drop an aitch and find msyelf dangling from the crow's nest with a noose around my neck!)

(Oh, but where are my manners!? I am Private Hasthwab of the Knights of the Barracuda - or Hasthwab Twinfists of the Bloody Executioners, to our nemesis. Pleased to make your acquaintance!)

(Ah, but we must be brief! You came for information on the Faces of Mercy, yes? The infamous company of thieves, brigands, mercenaries, and outlaws who will do almost anything provided the fee is paid up front?)

(Well, it is said that they have connections within all the houses of Ishgard, and that those connections can grant them passage into the region's many restricted areas, including the Darkhold.)

(The crystal hoard rumored to be located deep within the caves has piqued the Faces' interest, and they are actively looking for new recruits to go on retrieval runs. If you don't mind the danger that accompanies such missions, this should prove the easiest path into the Darkhold.)

(The Faces of Mercy do not maintain a permanent headquarters, and they only communicate through a complex network of contacts. Each member will only know the names of three others, and no two members will know the same three. That way, if one is caught and tortured, he cannot divulge more than the bare minimum to his captors. Of my three contacts, the one most likely to assist you is a Woodwight named Quiliane. Look for her in the hamlet of Owl's Nest.)

Now sod off, ye scurvy rat, afore I slit yer gut an' use yer innards t' tie the sails! <wink>

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Originally Posted by kyuven

What's weird is, given one of the only examples of dialogue choices with more than "Yes/No" in the game is a Rogue/Ninja quest, apparently our characters speak with a Limsa accent.

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As well as being fluent in beast-tribe speak? >.>; Nah, the "local accent" responses we give are just there for amusement. (Example: "I go whither the wild rose blooms." Did we come from the same uni as Urianger? O.o Wait... then we would've said goeth and bloometh... =_= )

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Originally Posted by kyuven

What's weird is, given one of the only examples of dialogue choices with more than "Yes/No" in the game is a Rogue/Ninja quest, apparently our characters speak with a Limsa accent.

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And the player character dialogue choice also mimics how the Shagians speak when you first speak to them for their beast quest (pssshh...). It's just the localization having too much fun with the script.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And the player character dialogue choice also mimics how the Shagians speak when you first speak to them for their beast quest (pssshh...). It's just the localization having too much fun with the script.

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Not really. The Echo give the character the ability to undstand and speak every language.

SE should just hire Working Designs to localize this game so we can have macarena references and npcs reminding us to eat our Wheaties.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

And cutting back on the "Limsan accent" will help everyone. It's not dumbing down anything. The dialog is terrible, nearly unreadable English. >< I like the idea of it, not the implementation. :/

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Nearly unreadable to you, perhaps. It scans perfectly easily for me. The thief talk takes a while to get used to the code switching, but once you do that scans easily too.

People complaining about 'obscure' words like portend and mummer. What did they teach you in high school English lit?

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Nearly unreadable to you, perhaps. It scans perfectly easily for me. The thief talk takes a while to get used to the code switching, but once you do that scans easily too.

People complaining about 'obscure' words like portend and mummer. What did they teach you in high school English lit?

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That those words exist, but aren't used in common parlance any longer.

And, sure, some folks will find the Limsan vocabulary easy to read. It's similar to how many people find a sentence like, "OMFG that GD DRG just RQ while in AK HM. WTF man?? Whatev. BRB 420." to be completely unreadable. This kind of thing is really subjective. I personally feel that SE should take the middle road and lighten up on the "accents" in some npc dialogs.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

I don't mind it much, but I have to admit that it gets annoying at times. English is my second language so certain texts are difficult for me to understand. I'm not even going to lie, I skip over pirate-speak text :( shakespearean English I can handle to an extent but pirate speak is no.

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Early modern English, like what Ramuh uses, is at least valid and recognizable English words, and grammatically correct as well.

The problem with the pirate speech is that it's neither. It's an attempt to describe an accent by using non-standard spelling. You have to just guess at what actual word that jumble of letters is intended to represent, because it's not a standard way to write anything. Familiarity with a wide range of accents makes that guessing easier, but nobody actually "knows" those words because they aren't actually words at all the way they're written. (Even people who speak with a strong accent still read/write words with the same standard spelling as everyone else. It's only authors who need to convey the sound of a character's accent through a purely written medium that resort to this type of jumbled spelling to convey it. Though a common way to literarily convey accents, it's a practice that can easily be overdone, becoming very hard to read.)

[EDIT: I originally said the above about both pirate speech and rogues' speech, but as Mholito pointed out, it doesn't apply to the rogues.]

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Let's use

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portendeth

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as an example. Portends, itself, is an infrequently used word anymore. You don't need to add on the awkwardly archaic -eth to the end to make it sound MORE 'old' or 'stuffy' or 'pretentious' or whatever effect they're going for.

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First off, "portends" isn't particularly uncommon. More significantly "-eth" isn't a suffix you can just tack on or remove arbitrarily. It has to match the tense of the rest of the sentence. Their only options were (1) include it as they did, (2) remove all traces of early modern English from the dialog, or (3) leave it as grammatically wrong. You can't change a sentence piecemeal and still have a valid sentence. Personally, I'm glad they used it correctly. (I can't stand when games or other media take a haphazard approach of just randomly taking on suffixes to words where they don't make sense. That makes it far harder to read than the correct English that SE's localization team uses for Ramuh and Urianger.)

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Originally Posted by Sadana

(Example: "I go whither the wild rose blooms." Did we come from the same uni as Urianger? O.o Wait... then we would've said goeth and bloometh... =_= )

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Bloometh perhaps, but Urianger wouldn't use goeth because it doesn't match the pronoun "I". (I go. Thou goest. He/she/it goeth.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

First off, "portends" isn't particularly uncommon. More significantly "-eth" isn't a suffix you can just tack on or remove arbitrarily. It has to match the tense of the rest of the sentence. Their only options were (1) include it as they did, (2) remove all traces of early modern English from the dialog, or (3) leave it as grammatically wrong. You can't change a sentence piecemeal and still have a valid sentence.

Bloometh perhaps, but Urianger wouldn't use goeth because it doesn't match the pronoun "I". (I go. Thou goest. He/she/it goeth.)

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Yeah, I was thinking about the fact that SE wouldn't be able to just change Urianger's method of speaking without some drastic change like Moenbryda telling him to knock off the act or something. >< I guess it's more a hope for the future.

Now I'm curious though... how often does the word "portend" show up in modern media? I would bet you'd be hard pressed to find it in any of today's newspapers and newscasts. :/

And thanks for the grammar correction! xD My bad about adding -eth to 'go'. :o

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The problem with the pirate speech and rogue's brogue is that they're neither. they're attempts to describe an accent by using non-standard spelling.

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The rogues actually talk in Thives' cant.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The rogues actually talk in Thives' cant.

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Thanks. Corrected.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Now I'm curious though... how often does the word "portend" show up in modern media? I would bet you'd be hard pressed to find it in any of today's newspapers and newscasts. :/

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It's probably more common in novels than newscasts. Although the word could technically be used for scientifically well-accepted predictions like weather forecasts, it tends to have a somewhat more mystical connotation. A novel where things like fate and prophesies are integral to the story is where an interest in portents is more likely to appear.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The problem with the pirate speech is that it's neither. It's an attempt to describe an accent by using non-standard spelling. You have to just guess at what actual word that jumble of letters is intended to represent, because it's not a standard way to write anything. Familiarity with a wide range of accents makes that guessing easier, but nobody actually "knows" those words because they aren't actually words at all the way they're written. (Even people who speak with a strong accent still read/write words with the same standard spelling as everyone else. It's only authors who need to convey the sound of a character's accent through a purely written medium that resort to this type of jumbled spelling to convey it. Though a common way to literarily convey accents, it's a practice that can easily be overdone, becoming very hard to read.))

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Basically this. Going from reading words normally to having an apostrophe replace nearly every single "h" or randomly thrown in to convey how the characters forgo a sound throws me for a loop. Whenever I do get around to reading the passages, the accent is clear as day in my head but it doesn't mean it's any less a pain in the ass to parse all of that. I liken Limsa pirate speak to Jamaican patois (for ex. "Wah mek yuh ask suh much questi-on fah? Mi ago link up mi friend dem). While I'll be able to read and understand it, it wouldn't be second nature to me as I'm just not used to it. The Rogues Cant just introduced unfamiliar slang into the mix which naturally will confuse anyone that doesn't know what the words mean.