T13 adds

I only equip flash for t10 incase I don't have a SS ready to group adds. If your having issues controlling adds at pick just throw in a extra OP or something

If it helps your case, as everyone mentioned, WHM can hold off on curing until you got hate solidified. From my personal experience, I usually put up Med 2 before Rage and let that do its own healing as it enters the new phase. Is it dangerous? Certainly. But WARs that I've gone with never really had an issue taking the add and keeping it.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

I've never had a problem with an immediate Overpower -> Brutal Swing -> BB Combo

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All depends on what does rest of party. These adds has simple mechanic - they landed, then if anyone hit add (autoattacks included) - he will going to highest aggro (when landing highest aggro has WHM from ticking regen). If tank take aggro when add begins to move - this is too late, add will going to healer then back. IMO the best way is take aggro ASAP (before add will landing and can move) because this will work with every party and situation. If tank will wait for add becoming targetable, then this can be race with dpses for first hit.
Considering delay to server, fastest way is properly timed Flash (or Steel Cyclone), played before add becoming targetable. Playing that - tank will take aggro from healer, then after first hit (does not matter from tank or dps) - add will go to tank (cause tank has highest aggro after Flash).

Flash has something like 2300 damage worth of aggro attached to it in full STR gear + DW axe (correct me if I'm wrong but that's what a quick test by eye showed). It's not unreasonable for BLM to do that with a crit Firestarter, or a DRG's Full Thrust crit + AA, or a BRD with Barrage + Hawk Eye + Bloodletter within a GCD, etc. I'm not seeing why you'd willingly want to roll the dice against those things with a Flash pickup when a Skull Sunder has more damage, sustained aggro, advances wrath, and will hold from everything a non-tank can do short of a C3 (and I once had a lucky crit Unchained Skull Sunder beat an ill timed C3 in this exact scenario).

I have as average a connection as they come and the only way a wyvern gets past a stored 2 is if I let them. That includes DPS mashing tab target + their fastest attack, because I'm doing it right back.

Flash can be done before you can actually target the add. That is why its better, has nothing to do with potency. You can still do a loaded BB when it lands, or whatever you want. Personally I like Overpower in case he moves a bit.

This is just like T4, you can flash before the add is actually there and still hit it.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Flash can be done before you can actually target the add. That is why its better, has nothing to do with potency.

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This is the clue. If add is non-targetable, then BLM cant steal aggro (Fire spells needs target to be casted).
Flash is played BEFORE, not INSTEAD. BEFORE add will landed and become targetable. Not when is targetable - this is too late for Flash, every dps can hit and tank must build strong aggro (like BB).
That early (non-targetable adds) Flash is often called pre-Flash.
So pre-Flash gives starting aggro to tank and 1-2s to hits with BB. I try first-hit-race many times without pre-Flash with 50/50 result (add stay on tank / goes to healer). With pre-Flash - add always stay, no matter what dpses doing. Even early autoattack (i.e. from BRD when swap target from Bahamut to add - AA counter is not reset after targets swap) will not start add's walking to healer, because pre-Flash gives aggro to tank. IMO playing without pre-Flash is risky: early auto-attack or race with dpses for first hit.

So it is flash, or loaded BB?

Skull Sunder > provoke > BB does not work.. In multiple attempts, each resulted in whm death. Does not help Med 2 ticking plus giant cure 3 at add spawn.. But this is what I have to work with. If skull sunder > than flash then I don't see flash having much effect. BB works best, but causes the add to AA the healer before returning. I can always try steel cyclone, I haven't yet, it would most likely be better than flash and won't break combo.

Trying again tonight. Several hours worth of trying can be viewed on my twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo if you want to see how bad it gets lol

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible. Mash tab target like your life depends on it (or, well, your WHM's life).

Another note, your WHM can either run next to you to hope and pray that they don't die from the single smack, or they can run away as the Shadow is coming toward them w/ Sprint and it'll leash back to you if you've gotten off OP/SS/whatever.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

So it is flash, or loaded BB?

Skull Sunder > provoke > BB does not work.. In multiple attempts, each resulted in whm death. Does not help Med 2 ticking plus giant cure 3 at add spawn.. But this is what I have to work with. If skull sunder > than flash then I don't see flash having much effect. BB works best, but causes the add to AA the healer before returning. I can always try steel cyclone, I haven't yet, it would most likely be better than flash and won't break combo.

Trying again tonight. Several hours worth of trying can be viewed on my twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo if you want to see how bad it gets lol

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Try leading with provoke. It's sort of unintuitive because tanking 101 says not to, but if you lead with provoke and instantly Skull Sunder it's very unlikely for the healer to take aggro back.

One very important thing if you are leading with a comboed SS is to BE IN POSITION for the add to spawn. If you cannot immediate get the SS off then you're going to have a bad time. Being in the right position of the add right when it spawns is VERY IMPORTANT and is probably of the main reasons for lost snap aggro.

You healer should not be using Medica II into Cure 3. There is no need for the cure 3 right after rage of bahamut. There is absolutely no raid damage at that point so the raid doesn't need to be immediately topped off. Cure 3 generates a lot of hate and even a well timed flash/overpower might not be enough.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible. Mash tab target like your life depends on it (or, well, your WHM's life).

Another note, your WHM can either run next to you to hope and pray that they don't die from the single smack, or they can run away as the Shadow is coming toward them w/ Sprint and it'll leash back to you if you've gotten off OP/SS/whatever.

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Overpower is fast and instant which is safe but you're left with no followup and if your WHM is Cure 3 bombing after Rage it might not be enough.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

Overpower is fast and instant which is safe but you're left with no followup and if your WHM is Cure 3 bombing after Rage it might not be enough.

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Unchained -> OP -> Brutal + Veng -> BB/SE combo is usually fine for me. 2nd one I do OP -> Brutal + Thrill -> IB -> Conv -> BB/SE combo. Then again the WHM I go with just has a Med 2 ticking, since there's no need for a Cure 3. SS -> BB is significantly better but a lot of people seem to have trouble with it, whereas OP is a lot easier to manage. Though animation cancelling has been disproved, using Brutal Swing after OP/SS/BB will get you quicker snap aggro due to the damage of BS registering quickly (especially for BB).

Those shadows are basically just a huge pain and you've gotta try your hardest to get the snappiest snap aggro you can manage.

Med 2 + cure 3 seems like overkill in all honesty. If stacks are balanced it's not like gigaflare where everyone is at 2-3k health after. Maybe one or 2 people need a cure 2 but everyone else with 1 stack damage is minimal. Maybe if she keeps getting cleaved it will sink it.. xD

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible.

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I play Flash when add appears on target list (2nd and 3rd add) or when is half way down (1st add) and this gives me aggro when he landed (game has delay with aggro changing) and few sec for play BB without aggro lose. I'm played on PS4 with game recording and checked many times frame by frame, whats going on (aggro changing, aggro bars in party list).
Overpower has main disadvantages: needs target and break combo.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Trying again tonight. Several hours worth of trying can be viewed on my twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo if you want to see how bad it gets lol

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Watched one of the recordings of your attempts (http://www.twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo/b/654989155) and I'd like to offer some tips that may help:

1.) You seem to use SP -> BB, sometimes even SP -> BB -> BB. This isn't a good OT rotation no matter what your goal is with it. Eye -> Path will result in higher DPS for you, the MT, and the NIN (especially the NIN as it will allow him to drop the slashing debuff bit of his rotation) as well as 100% uptime of both debuffs. SP -> BB -> BB is especially bad as it will drop Path for a brief period.

2.) Sometimes you're a bit slow on the add pickup, or you aren't there when the add is about to spawn. You actually did fairly well on picking up some of them, 25:17 is a good example of where you executed correctly. The reason it turns is because you didn't use anything else and BB's animation takes 500 years to register aggro, so using Brutal Swing there would've probably kept it solid quicker.

3.) You stay in Defiance between Shadows, which isn't necessary and does nothing but lower your damage. If you use Infuriate before/as the Shadow is about to spawn, it will be back up when the next one spawns - this means there is a full 60s between each Shadow spawn. 60s of nerfed Defiance damage where you aren't tanking anything that needs that extra HP.

4.) Just a small thing in regards to my first point, after the first Shadow dies you can use SE first over SP since the Flatten is going to be Hallowed. For the other 2 Shadows, however, you want to pre-build an SP to put on the boss for the upcoming Flattens.

5.) Another sorta small thing, you don't open with Infuriate -> Unchained -> combo buttons until Unchained wears off -> IB -> drop Defiance -> etc. That's a free fully buffed 300 pot attack you could be using.

6.) It's worth it to interrupt your combo to pre-load a SS vs a BB for the Shadow. SS is much easier to manage than BB, though obviously BB will give you more initial aggro. I'm usually fine on aggro with just a combo'd SS as long as it's just Med 2 ticking.

7.) You don't always need to use IB for each Shadow. Your Infuriate usage should be Unchained -> IB -> Unchained, Thrill + Conv/Veng for the first one and then whichever you didn't use for the 3rd. Remember, Unchained allows for a free IB on the boss and that's a good chunk of damage to be missing out on.

Xeno did a guide on various small things you can do to better your WAR in 13, which I'd recommend checking out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgpxqqmkLA

You actually seem perfectly fine for 13, there's just things you'll want to change to help your group overall and maximize your (and other's) DPS output. The higher your group DPS in progression, the more chances you have to see later phases and the less mechanics you have to deal with. You've also got the right idea for the Shadows, you just need to work on using an off GCD after your initial GCD (preferably Brutal Swing).

Thanks, Spooky. The reason I don't open with defiance is because popping all buffs, even after SE > SP > Fracture > Inner Beast > that first BB rips off my PLD. So I just don't open in Defiance anymore lol. I do pop in/out of defiance between adds, I'll play more aggressively as I get more comfortable (target locking and all that too). I keep SP up to help healers who are new as well, since the NIN is always overriding my SE >.<

I have a bad habit of hitting brutal swing every time I can, so that screwed me a couple times not having it for the add, and still getting used to exactly where they spawn, I know it spawns "over here somewhere" which isn't really good enough lol

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

you just need to work on using an off GCD after your initial GCD (preferably Brutal Swing).

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I would just like to point out that the idea that using an Off GCD attack after your GCD shortens the time before it takes effect is wrong. It has been debunked on reddit (shouldn't be too hard to search for it if you are so inclined). The animation will be shorter, but the time at which the damage / hate / debuffs will take effect will remain the same -- it has been tested properly now.

The ONE thing that you can do if you want to get quicker aggro than the Butcher's Block combo, is... Not to use BB. Instead, if you go provoke ->skull sunder -> brutal swing -> BB, you will get much quicker aggro (due to skull sunder being faster than BB), and you will get better long run aggro too (since you will get SS + BB aggro before starting a new combo instead of just BB).

Edit: Relevant Reddit Posts. Unfortunately, the debunking got less press than the initial "trick" got, so it is now widespread.

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Originally Posted by Casper

I would just like to point out that the idea that using an Off GCD attack after your GCD shortens the time before it takes effect is wrong.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Though animation cancelling has been disproved, using Brutal Swing after OP/SS/BB will get you quicker snap aggro due to the damage of BS registering quickly (especially for BB).

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Yeah, pointed that out. SS is better in general, though BB is higher single GCD snap aggro if necessary and you have BS available. For Shadows I think OP or SS is best, it's honestly not too big of a deal which you use. Flash works, apparently, though if the GCD for Flash is still ticking once you're able to target the Shadow then you've got a bit of a problem in terms of damage/enmity generated... but we're nearing the end of 2.5 so do whatever works lol

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Snip

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Damn, my bad for reading in diagonal, good call ;)

I got a few clears finally, but on DRG lol. They had another war tank with a lot of experience join so we could clear. I thought it was kinda funny that he had some struggles too, and it was 100% due to the timing of heals. Keeping that in mind, I'm honestly not going to worry too much about it anymore. Maybe before echo and higher level gear it was more important for super fast snap aggro. Provoke/Skull Sunder just do not work in this situation, need the power of a fast BB to keep add. Thanks for the suggestions tho guys :)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I got a few clears finally, but on DRG lol. They had another war tank with a lot of experience join so we could clear. I thought it was kinda funny that he had some struggles too, and it was 100% due to the timing of heals. Keeping that in mind, I'm honestly not going to worry too much about it anymore. Maybe before echo and higher level gear it was more important for super fast snap aggro. Provoke/Skull Sunder just do not work in this situation, need the power of a fast BB to keep add. Thanks for the suggestions tho guys :)

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Gratz on your clear. I think super fast snap aggro does still matter even with echo. I have pugged this fight countless times and the outgoing damage if that add tethers is just unhealable. I appreciate your questions and the feedback people gave. It has helped me understand the other perspectives of this fight.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Unchained -> OP -> Brutal + Veng -> BB/SE combo is usually fine for me. 2nd one I do OP -> Brutal + Thrill -> IB -> Conv -> BB/SE combo. Then again the WHM I go with just has a Med 2 ticking, since there's no need for a Cure 3. SS -> BB is significantly better but a lot of people seem to have trouble with it, whereas OP is a lot easier to manage. Though animation cancelling has been disproved, using Brutal Swing after OP/SS/BB will get you quicker snap aggro due to the damage of BS registering quickly (especially for BB).

Those shadows are basically just a huge pain and you've gotta try your hardest to get the snappiest snap aggro you can manage.

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I don't like blowing unchained on the add, since it dies so quickly and time for it is lost walking back to bahamut :/

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

I don't like blowing unchained on the add, since it dies so quickly and time for it is lost walking back to bahamut :/

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Its safer and better then defiance only. The second it wears off you'll be dropping defiance anyways.

Yeah, Unchained on the add is really only to build the 5 stacks to use IB on the boss without having to suffer the Defiance penalty while tanking the add. IB + Veng/Thrill + Conv for every add is the safer option if you don't trust your healers to keep you up with just one of the two CDs.

You may want to try this:

Anticipate/Prepare where the add would spawn. Then use Tomahawk > Provoke < Tomahawk > (Move close to add) Brutal Swing > then use you 123 Enmity Combo as well as your defensive cooldown (Thrill of the Battle or Vengeance)

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Originally Posted by keroo

You may want to try this:

Anticipate/Prepare where the add would spawn. Then use Tomahawk > Provoke < Tomahawk > (Move close to add) Brutal Swing > then use you 123 Enmity Combo as well as your defensive cooldown (Thrill of the Battle or Vengeance)

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Good God no. DPS are going to be on that add seconds after it spawns and Tomahawk isn't going to keep threat for more than half a second when your BLM shits out a 2-4k Fire III/Flare on it. Prep a Butcher's Block, animation cancel it with Brutal Swing, and Tomahawk for supplemental threat as you move to the position where you're going to tank it.

Tomhawk > tomahawk > 1,2,3

That is almost 10 seconds worth of GCD. Way too slow and in the wrong order for repositioning.

SS or canceled BB like zaft said is the only way to go. Tomahawks are for while you are moving if you even need them at all.

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Originally Posted by Casper

Edit: Relevant Reddit Posts. Unfortunately, the debunking got less press than the initial "trick" got, so it is now widespread.

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^^^^^ BS doesn't actually cancel BB's animation, it just registers the damage of BS before the damage of BB giving you quicker snap aggro. If you use any oGCD skill it won't have any affect on BB besides giving you a tiny bit of aggro due to CDs inherently generating aggro when used. BS actually does damage and therefore generates more aggro, thus if you're going to use BB then you should use BS.

Personal experience, the combo with the highest success rate for me is run to spawn location as soon as rage of bahamut finished cast, then provoke add when you can target it and hit it with Skull Sunder. After that if you want to be safe, take a few steps back and use BB, or you can just pull adds away.

These adds aggro EXTREMELY fast ? no, these aggros immediately XD

I just go Steel Cyclone.... No targeting necessary.... soon as i see the name pop , it's mine.

Some say it's not worth it cause you burn your stacks but is your healer being dead a better option ?

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Originally Posted by Geaux

I just go Steel Cyclone.... No targeting necessary.... soon as i see the name pop , it's mine.

Some say it's not worth it cause you burn your stacks but is your healer being dead a better option ?

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Steel Cyclone is safe, but:

1.) It's less damage (no Unchained)
2.) It's less mitigation (no IB)

You're better off using Flash if you're going to go this route, imo.

the problem is just our whm have medica II tick and maybe use cure III, so
i do my combo, till the skull sunder on bahamuth i put berserk i pull the with butcher block when the add pop, and do provoke on reaction if he get to the whm, it happen most of the time, tanks to cure iii XD.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Steel Cyclone is safe, but:

1.) It's less damage (no Unchained)
2.) It's less mitigation (no IB)

You're better off using Flash if you're going to go this route, imo.

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Well we're talking the speed of the claim to prevent a death.... sure there are other means of doing it but those have longer animations.

I'm just trying to make sure my healer doesn't die and that's the most effective way for me , personally.

Plus this stuff is 15% echo..... you can queue a BB and since SC doesn't eat the rotation , you get insta claim and BB right after. From there you can drop Defiance period till the next add is about to pop.

What I do for the adds as War, is I pan my camera in a direction where they will spawn, and only the one I want to grab myself. Then I spam the hell out of Tab (Which should only ever make me target the add thats about to spawn) and Overpower back to back, and I wind up overpowering the add before before it even shows up. (The hitbox for it displays about a quarter of a second before the add does)

If you can ramp up a skullsunder, can do it with that too so long as you know exactly where it will spawn and can stand right ontop of it. But if even with that, your healers are still pulling aggro somehow, they're doing something terribly wrong themselves.

(Basically just take anything you don't need to target out of your cameras view, spam tab + overpower whether overpower goes off or not, and you'll end up smacking the thing as soon as it appears.)

Tab spam is a great trick. I use it on the storm during the adds phase.