Thanks for nothing SE on 3 star crafting!

Yeah,

When you quoted me, I don't think you crafted the same why I crafted. The way I posted included the wiggle room fo different ways that different people like to craft. I tend to go with very RNG heavy rotations, and leave Reclaim on. I find that typically, I will end the synth with 100% HQ rate, or I'll be reclaiming before the finisher and breaking the snth. (and usually, I'm finishing) Yes, I've had bad luck . . . but at the ends of my synth, I typically only leave it for 1 Careful Synthesis II in order to finish off my progress. This means, the last action I'm doing is 100% guaranteed. Because I don't want RNG at the end of my synth. use RNG all the way up to the finisher, evaluate the synth, and decide if you need to reclaim or not. Then Either reclaim, and bail (Or depending on yoru CP, maybe Reclaim and try to see how much Quality+ you can still get) or commit to inishing the synth.

The more 3*/4* Synths I have done, the better I have become at evaluating this final stage.

My biggest obstacle, is that I have a tendency to get my progress to 1 final move to finish, which means I need to use 32 more CP to have an action to bait for a good condition. (I would then bait with Ingenuity II)

Although, only now that I am typing this do I realise I could be baiting with, Observe? uses less CP than ingenuity II. So that's another alternative finisher. SH2, GS2, Innovation, Observe, byregot's Blessing.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Although, only now that I am typing this do I realise I could be baiting with, Observe? uses less CP than ingenuity II. So that's another alternative finisher. SH2, GS2, Innovation, Observe, byregot's Blessing.

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Use SH1 to save 3 CP if you have finished all your hasty touches. I personally use Innovation, then Ing1 (or Observe if I don't have enough cp) for fishing. If I have more CP than I need towards the end for all those but still not enough for an extra MM, then I will start substituting basic touches for hasty touches. I usually don't have enough CP for that Ing1 because I tend to stretch my CP thin by doing a second MM2. Ultimately, more touches/IQ stacks are better than the buffs or fishing out a good condition. If your stacks are already full, 3 more touches gets you just as much extra as getting a good condition on BB.

Can some explain to me about innovation? I am mostly 2 star and have been relying on manual craft and hitting all the tots and great striding byregots at half bar without actually having knowledge about the numbers. So far all by feel for me for comfort zone manip sh2 timings.

My first 3star offhand tool hq was a few days ago with the help of a friend. Hr crafted my bsm offhand and the wolfram ingot for my intended crp offhand and told me I need to have 345cp plus bouilabaise hq food. I did that and crafted the thing on my own and got lucky I guess considering all these posts flew over my head

So yeah. Without just relying on how people usually list their rotation, when exactly should I use innovation? And why? I tried figuring it out with my routine crafts but just couldnt figure out a guaranteed rule like byregots half bars. And why waste not when manip seems to be more cost effective?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Can some explain to me about innovation? I am mostly 2 star and have been relying on manual craft and hitting all the tots and great striding byregots at half bar without actually having knowledge about the numbers. So far all by feel for me for comfort zone manip sh2 timings.

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Innovation, in general, is a buff used to boost control, which increases quality gains. Since it costs CP, it's normally cast only once during the craft, between great strides and byregot's.

So if you gs into bb right away and are able to do so at 10iq stacks of normal hts...how much normal iq stacks would i need to go for with gs inno bb?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

So if you gs into bb right away and are able to do so at 10iq stacks of normal hts...how much normal iq stacks would i need to go for with gs inno bb?

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I'm not 100% positive, but I believe that GS INN BB with IQ9 is similar to GS BB with IQ10.

In any case, the general idea is to get as many IQ stacks as possible, while leaving enough durability and CP left over to finish the craft. If you have extra durability and CP for more IQ stacks, don't stop at 9 or 10.

if byregot is not landing on good/excellent. even with 11IQ. its not worth it to finish the synth (unless you are OK with getting NQ for supra). thats why im using Rumination/Reclaim combo. i want to make sure that the 11IQ lands on good/excellent. otherwise i will rumination to get enough cp to reclaim.

11IQ byregot on normal gives you hardly 23 to 25% quality!. which is so low.

yesterday i had 11IQ byregot on good condition and it gave me 76% HQ chance. i finished the synth and got NQ calibrated cog anyways lol. :/

GGs.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

if byregot is not landing on good/excellent. even with 11IQ. its not worth it to finish the synth (unless you are OK with getting NQ for supra). thats why im using Rumination/Reclaim combo. i want to make sure that the 11IQ lands on good/excellent. otherwise i will rumination to get enough cp to reclaim.

11IQ byregot on normal gives you hardly 23 to 25% quality!. which is so low.

yesterday i had 11IQ byregot on good condition and it gave me 76% HQ chance. i finished the synth and got NQ calibrated cog anyways lol. :/

GGs.

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Actually you dont need good/excellent to use BB on 11 stacks for 65-75% as long as you can buff the BB normally, which you should have left CP to do anyway while fishing for good/excellent.

I'm simply becoming disgusted with this 4-star gating system that the devs unfortunately gave to these folks who wanted exclusivity in the game (as if Final Coil wasn't enough). Nearly 500,000 gil burned Sunday trying for a last Rich Tomato Relish and I get NQ every attempt, even with Chantico Supra and an Artisan's Culinary Knife. Maybe someone at SE will address this in 3.0 (preferably burying this philosophy for good).

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Originally Posted by MN_14

Luck is definitely a factor because you can still fall flat on your face no matter how good your strategy is. However, the basic idea is that with a good strategy your hq yield should be much higher than if you were to use a poor strategy, which is probably the intent behind such a system.

When crafting, you have to accept the fact that you won't always get an hq or get your materials back by reclaiming. Fortunately, with a good approach, you should end up with the result you want most of the time.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

There is a small element of RNG in 3*/4* crafting, the worse people are at crafting the bigger this element becomes.

From the OP's comments, it's very clear that he/she is using poor methods for crafting, thus making the RNG element far far bigger than it should be, this is my point.

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You both have good points. The more you understand the skills and the better your rotation and reactions to fails will improve your chances, No doubt .. But to me RNG just plays a little too much into crafting.
I think it is because the percentages seem off... Hasty with steady hand II fails way more than 20 percent of the time, at least it does for me. I have talked to others too that feel the percentage feels way higher.
Its when you get that 3 or 4 hasty touches that fail in a row that makes things frustrating.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Actually you dont need good/excellent to use BB on 11 stacks for 65-75% as long as you can buff the BB normally, which you should have left CP to do anyway while fishing for good/excellent.

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What are u talking about.

I'm talking about the 3star token to unlock 4star book. No way u can get to above 60% if bb on normal... Buffed or not buffed... without some serious tot luck and probably an excellent while you were hasty touching.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

You both have good points. The more you understand the skills and the better your rotation and reactions to fails will improve your chances, No doubt .. But to me RNG just plays a little too much into crafting.
I think it is because the percentages seem off... Hasty with steady hand II fails way more than 20 percent of the time, at least it does for me. I have talked to others too that feel the percentage feels way higher.
Its when you get that 3 or 4 hasty touches that fail in a row that makes things frustrating.

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The way I notice it, SE's RNG has a certain pattern where if you immediately attempt Hasty Touch after a failed Hasty Touch, you will most likely get another failed Hasty Touch (More than 50% of the time). And vice versa.
So, when I get a failed Hasty touch, I wait 5-10 seconds before doing the next Hasty Touch, and if I get a successful Hasty Touch, I will rapidly do Hasty touch until it failed.

Might be a superstition. But it works for me. <.<

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Originally Posted by Nashred

I think it is because the percentages seem off... Hasty with steady hand II fails way more than 20 percent of the time, at least it does for me. I have talked to others too that feel the percentage feels way higher.
Its when you get that 3 or 4 hasty touches that fail in a row that makes things frustrating.

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From my experience, the success rates for hasty with SHII really do seem to be 80% over a large sample size. Sometimes, it would fail 4-5 times, others 1 time or not at all. It fails maybe twice on average for me (assuming all touches are hasty touches).

If you're using hasty touch 10 times, you should expect two misses on average, and if you're using rapid synthesis and/or pbp w/out SH, you'd expect 2-3 misses throughout your craft. Sometimes you do get a lot of "lucky streaks" and "unlucky streaks", however, but I feel everything averages out in the end.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Actually you dont need good/excellent to use BB on 11 stacks for 65-75% as long as you can buff the BB normally, which you should have left CP to do anyway while fishing for good/excellent.

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Hmm, a buffed BB at IQ11 gives me around 36% unless I've either landed a hasty or basic touch on an excellent and/or landed more than 10 touches. However, I've never buffed Byregot's with both innovation and ingenuityII, so maybe that would explain the difference.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

What are u talking about.

I'm talking about the 3star token to unlock 4star book. No way u can get to above 60% if bb on normal... Buffed or not buffed... without some serious tot luck and probably an excellent while you were hasty touching.

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I am talking about the 3* tokens and i unlocked all my crafts on the day 4* was released, so I'm pretty sure I have a fair idea of what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

What are u talking about.

I'm talking about the 3star token to unlock 4star book. No way u can get to above 60% if bb on normal... Buffed or not buffed... without some serious tot luck and probably an excellent while you were hasty touching.

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I can't say for sure how that can be done, but there are a lot of different approaches that you can try. Perhaps using control food instead of CP food is viable.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

I am talking about the 3* tokens and i unlocked all my crafts on the day 4* was released, so I'm pretty sure I have a fair idea of what I'm talking about.

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with base control 407, sorry its not possible to get a "buffed" BB to go above 60% or let alone reach 50% if it lands on normal. again. you need some serious RNG in your side prior to landing BB.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

with base control 407, sorry its not possible to get a "buffed" BB to go above 60% or let alone reach 50% if it lands on normal. again. you need some serious RNG in your side prior to landing BB.

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Just because you cannot do something, does not mean it is impossible.

It's not serious RNG, atleast 25% of my tokens were finished with BB on normal condition, ending at 60%+

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Just because you cannot do something, does not mean it is impossible.

It's not serious RNG, atleast 25% of my tokens were finished with BB on normal condition, ending at 60%+

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:confused: stop throwing random comments without proof. 3star tokens are heavily reliant on rng


http://link.ffxivcrafter.com/?id=cbdjs


A buffed bb on normal with 11iq and all hasty touches landing on normal give u 20% quality.

You need rng to gain more quality. It's impossible for bb landing on normal to reach 60%

Base control 407.

Maybe someone had a godly run like this

http://www.ffxivcrafter.com/crafting...tor&guid=cbdj1

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

A buffed bb on normal with 11iq and all hasty touches landing on normal give u 20% quality.

You need rng to gain more quality. It's impossible for bb landing on normal to reach 60%

Base control 407.

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I tested on the website, it will only reach 20% if you use NQ mats.
If you use HQ 2 star token, you will get 1494 starting quality, thus 60% (in example below, it lands at 64%) is reachable with buffed BB on Normal condition.
http://link.ffxivcrafter.com/?id=cbdj4
So, it's not impossible at all actually.

I don't ever use NQ mats when I'm attempting to make HQ 3 Star Token.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

:confused: stop throwing random comments without proof.

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You keep talking about 407 base control, where is this magic number of yours coming from?

You don't need that much control to make these, they are 3* not 4* and can be made with 374+ control, so who is the one coming up with random non sense comments?

I unlocked my first couple of crafts without the artisans offhands etc, using pre-2.4 stats and fc buffs, so a fair bit less than 407 control, if that's not proof enough that I know what I'm talking about, I don't know what is :P

Well you wanted proof, so here you go:

This was done using Supra and 412 control, easily obtainable stats and not even using fc buff.

Also note this was my First Try.

Before BB:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2uibxhh.jpg

After BB (85%):

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2iar28j.jpg

Finshed Craft (HQ):

http://oi57.tinypic.com/jt5rih.jpg

I also had 10 dura spare when I finished.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Well you wanted proof, so here you go:

This was done using Supra and 412 control, easily obtainable stats and not even using fc buff.

Also note this was my First Try.

Before BB:


After BB (85%):


Finshed Craft (HQ):


I also had 10 dura spare when I finished.

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wow amazing crafting skills. you proved me wrong :(

i didnt know that you unlocked all books without the offhand and such. thank you for telling me. and letting everyone else know <3

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

wow amazing crafting skills. you proved me wrong :(

i didnt know that you unlocked all books without the offhand and such. thank you for telling me. and letting everyone else know <3

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^^

It is still dependant on RNG, like you said, but with practice (and actually by adding more RNG based skills/decisions), you can lower the RNG's impact, if that makes any sense. I.e. greater risk - greater reward and ofc can still Reclaim if needed.

I did use the new offhands for some of my crafts (as it does make it easier), but in that first day it took a while to get all the sealants to craft them all and I was in a rush! xD

You pretty much need the new offhands in order to actually make 4* items, so really no reason not to use one these days when unlocking the master 2 books.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

with base control 407, sorry its not possible to get a "buffed" BB to go above 60% or let alone reach 50% if it lands on normal. again. you need some serious RNG in your side prior to landing BB.

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Actually, it is. I have done it several times with my control in the 390s. The difference between having 30% or 70% after hitting BB on normal is how many touches you got in above the 10 you need for IQ. BB with GS is worth 6 hasty touches, so 13 total touches with normal BB is just as good as 10 touches with good condition BB.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

^^

It is still dependant on RNG, like you said, but with practice (and actually by adding more RNG based skills/decisions), you can lower the RNG's impact, if that makes any sense. I.e. greater risk - greater reward and ofc can still Reclaim if needed.

I did use the new offhands for some of my crafts (as it does make it easier), but in that first day it took a while to get all the sealants to craft them all and I was in a rush! xD

You pretty much need the new offhands in order to actually make 4* items, so really no reason not to use one these days when unlocking the master 2 books.

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I suppose you used 3 Rapid Synthesis and Byregot without SH?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I suppose you used 3 Rapid Synthesis and Byregot without SH?

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I used 1 PBP and some rapid synth yeah. Had been some time since I did one of these tokens, so for progress had to guess a bit xD

For this craft I did use BB without steady hands, not something i'd be keen to do on a real craft (4* i110 ect), but for these I think the risk is sometimes worth having to do that. Also the main point was just to prove that you dont *need* good/excellent in order to get a decent enough finishing %. Never had all that many ToT, so I needed to save that CP in order to fully buff my BB ^^

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

I used 1 PBP and some rapid synth yeah. Had been some time since I did one of these tokens, so for progress had to guess a bit xD

For this craft I did use BB without steady hands, not something i'd be keen to do on a real craft (4* i110 ect), but for these I think the risk is sometimes worth having to do that. Also the main point was just to prove that you dont *need* good/excellent in order to get a decent enough finishing %. Never had all that many ToT, so I needed to save that CP in order to fully buff my BB ^^

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http://www.ffxivcrafter.com/crafting...tor&guid=cbdlp

I tried to reverse engineer what you did as per the screenshot, using the number of steps, CP left and buffs used at the final moments as a guideline. The simulator assumes that everything is 100% success rate and every touch is assumed to hit on normal, which is something to note, and the end result is 54% HQ rate @ 6816 Quality. Assuming that indeed none of the Rapid Synthesis and Hasty Touches failed, it still require a hit on Excellent somewhere in the line (probably mid to later touches) to reach that 8006 final quality (quick ref: your before BB quality is 4971, while on simulator it is 3768).

It is also further noted that this specific example craft would have a 50% failure rate, if not for that ToT proc right after BB for you to have enough CP for a SHII to boost that Rapid Synthesis finishing (which I took into account and did the same in the simulator: ending with 9CP VS your 11CP left after RS). At the same time, 3CZ and 10ToT procs are required if following the steps engineered from the simulator.

I am not sure how correct the simulator is in reflecting this specific run of yours, but it has been make to be as accurate as possible with the total # of steps taken, durability left and the buffs and finishing moves at the end, the amount of risk taken here is really high.

Meanwhile I was the more conservative crafter who baits for a good/excellent Byregot with 10/11IQ or bails with Reclaim :p I can still recall the amount of headbanging to unlock my WVR/LTW 4* books on day one to churn out the goods for good gil X__X

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Stuff about crafting simulators

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I don't have a clue when I comes to crafting simulators, I never use them, nor do I trust that kind of thing, hence I logged and made one of these to provide actual proof.

There was atleast 1 hasty fail, maybe more, can't honestly remember. It was a reasonable run RNG wise (as is always needed to HQ one of these), but certianly nothing special.

The Good after BB did help, but it would not have been a 50% chance to succeed, it would have been a lot higher. I had 20 Dura to finish and needed 1 RS 2 50% chances. BB was hit on Normal, so the chance for Good was always there and the chance for a good after the first RS (if it failed on 50%) was also there. So it's a lot higher than 50% likely, probably more like 80%+.

That said, I was literally just being lazy using RS to finish anyway, CS2 x2 would have finished the craft...

Again, not ideal for this craft I agree, but that was not the point, I did not care about finishing this craft (discarded the HQ item anyway), I was just showing that Good/Excellent was not needed on a buffed 11 stack BB to get over 60%. (Did this many times when unlocking the 8 books)

Sometimes on these crafts it is better to leave yourself only 10 dura and use that extra hasty, then finish using SH2 buffed RS. Sure it's only 80% chance, but with the crafts thats not so bad.

There is also a small chance you don't lose mats without using Reclaim, though I'm not sure what % this is.

On day one, I expected these to be needed (the early patch notes), so I already had 10 of each of the sub mats HQ, a lot of fieldcraft III's and some thought into how I'd HQ them.

I'm not sure how accurate the simulator is anyways because I never got the exact 672 progress as shown in your screenshot no matter how much I change the Craftmanship stats, and Standard Touch which is supposed to be 125% efficiency yields the same quality progression as Hasty Touch (100%), lol.

But anyways what I did was to gauge how much risk you actually took over there to reach that amount of progress. :p

Which is a tad too much for my taste lol. I already consider using PbP unbuffed a risk already (mostly cos my RNG sucks, 90% success rates but fails more often than that).

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Which is a tad too much for my taste lol. I already consider using PbP unbuffed a risk already (mostly cos my RNG sucks, 90% success rates but fails more often than that).

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The PbP was buffed :P

These token crafts do require risks and some "going for it", I take few risks with i110 gear crafts etc, as they don't need much and are a greater loss should the risks not pay off.

I'd rather take risks and get a 70%+ HQ rate than keep using reclaim that is *apparently* 90%, my personal reclaim success rate has been more like 60% lol.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

The PbP was buffed :P

These token crafts do require risks and some "going for it", I take few risks with i110 gear crafts etc, as they don't need much and are a greater loss should the risks not pay off.

I'd rather take risks and get a 70%+ HQ rate than keep using reclaim that is *apparently* 90%, my personal reclaim success rate has been more like 60% lol.

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Oh well I have more success on Reclaim than unbuffed PbP, lol.

In any case, seasoned crafters would already noted that there is somehow an unproven, hidden success % over the % HQ itself.

Even getting a 30-40% HQ rate on the token craft have more actual chance in HQ-ing than on an actual 4* gear. Knowing what and when to take risks are also part of being a leading crafter, imo. That's why those who blindly copy "rotations" can still fail big time right now lol.

this is what i used to for book II tokens,my stats was 394/387/392 with food https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzO43-1-EPg,