An open discsusion on the consequences of death

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Originally Posted by Goldfighter

When did they change it? Haven't been on in a bit, prolly why I hadn't noticed.

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last patch.

No death penalty! Just increase the weakness condition to 5 or 6 mins.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

last patch.

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Interesting. Coulda swore it happened kinda recently although, operator error comes to mind. Mighta just backed up into one or something.

I have already replied in the twin thread, but...
No exp loss for me. You don't gain anything, but you lose a lot.

- you can die for other's fault. So you start to avoid who don't know well.
- you can die for technical problems: loss connection, high latency,
- I wanna TRY. sometime I wanna try stupid, really stupid things. If I lose exp, I'll close myself as a porcupine, escaping risks.
- this is a negative feature, There are masochists, but if I ask: what do you prefer,
1.a gift if you perform your job well
2.a kick in your.. face if you do something wrong,
what do you think he'll reply?
- Others

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I have already replied in the twin thread, but...
No exp loss for me. You don't gain anything, but you lose a lot.

- you can die for other's fault. So you start to avoid who don't know well.
- you can die for technical problems: loss connection, high latency,
- I wanna TRY. sometime I wanna try stupid, really stupid things. If I lose exp, I'll close myself as a porcupine, escaping risks.
- this is a negative feature, There are masochists, but if I ask: what do you prefer,
1.a gift if you perform your job well
2.a kick in your.. face if you do something wrong,
what do you think he'll reply?
- Others

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It's a small XP lost of an hour at most, not a character wipe here.

That's like saying if you like fried chicken you're inviting a heart attack.

Less death penalties = more challenging encounters can be implemented.

The fact that you lose should be the punishment.

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- you can die for other's fault. So you start to avoid who don't know well.
- you can die for technical problems: loss connection, high latency,
- I wanna TRY. sometime I wanna try stupid, really stupid things. If I lose exp, I'll close myself as a porcupine, escaping risks.

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This is exactly how its going to be just like in XI. So many people afraid to try new things or branch out because they don't want to chance losing xp. So then this sense of EVERYBODY MUST PLAY AS THIS! type attitude arises then people complain because they can't enjoy a game the way they want to. You can get mad at the people afraid but then again can you really blame them? I have a solution to this problem ALL should(hopefully lol) agree too...

How about they make it a option you can choose... SO! The people wanting such ancient practices can have their thrill of sp loss(giddy!) and those of use that don't can keep our sp(maybe just get a 5 min duration). All in favor? Its win/win

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Less death penalties = more challenging encounters can be implemented.

The fact that you lose should be the punishment.

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What do you lose? Maybe we should put a big dunce hat over your head for one real day to be effective?

So far it's just a coffee break to anyone dying.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

What do you lose? Maybe we should put a big dunce hat over your head for one real day to be effective?

So far it's just a coffee break to anyone dying.

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You lose time. There is such a thing in the universe.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

What do you lose? Maybe we should put a big dunce hat over your head for one real day to be effective?

So far it's just a coffee break to anyone dying.

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What was the difference with XI? When you died you got a 5 min break. but if you was a healer or tank the entire party took a 5 min break. Adding sp loss solves nothing but adds more problems. If nothing else the great possibility of an idiot or tech problem screwing your time invested over. I can understand there needing to be a stronger penalty for death but sp loss solves nothing.. As i stated in my previous post they can make it optional so all who feel this should happen can get all their sp loss thrills.

edit: I was never afraid to die in XI and wouldn't be in XIV if they added this stupid penalty. Whats the point though? For a more severe penalty? I wouldn't give a hacker my password and i don't want idiots being able to screw me over when they feel like it.

So long as you dont lose a rank I'm cool w/ it.


edit: but keep in mind that with a strong death penalty group wipes will result in the blame game.

Honestly, it wouldn't be too bad. I really miss the Sneak/Invis/Deo thing from FFXI. That made exploring seem more fun. (Maybe make them last longer, and have an actual timer on them so I know exactly how long I have to get somewhere safe...)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

What do you lose? Maybe we should put a big dunce hat over your head for one real day to be effective?

So far it's just a coffee break to anyone dying.

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You lose the encounter in question, which may or may not have more consequences depending on the content itself. For more lighthearted content you don't lose much [time] but enough to set back your progress for a while. For less lighthearted content you may not be able to retry the event in question or you have to go all the way back to the start and climb up again.

It all boils down to [time] either way. You lose exp = you lose time needed to gain back that exp. You lose durability = you lose time needed to gain money and items to repair your equipment. Time is always the penalty, and this game gives you enough penalty for what kind of content there is available. When stakes get higher, the time lost will reflect that.

I feel there should be more of a penalty for death. I'd welcome the "SP loss but no de-level" thing.

I have to agree with Nharil, the idea of saving up Guardian at the aetherite for the resurrection sickness is very good.

About the exp loss... i'd only choose on the rank, not the base experience. Since if it won't drop you from your current level and it doesn't matter if you level a DoW, DoM, DoH or DoL you can rank it up fairly easy.

I would say loosing durability on an item upon death shopuld be mandatory thought. As it would be nice that at 0% it unequips, as for weapon, get a message saying you can no longer attack and need to equip another weapon or repair. Since the game started i simply use the same gear and barely repair it, running with a 0% durability on gear.

If you die and get something to 0% is prolly your own fault for being reckless going to a camp whitout the proper and fixed armor. I don't mean each time you die you loose loads of durability, but maybe a 2-5% will help people to understand that everything got their maximum uses... so gear do "die" while you do too. Giving even more importance to the DoH players with this.

After FFXI and the exp loss no thanks. I think it is a annoyance and i have died plenty of times through my own fault or by the fault of other players, and it was a pain and not fun at all. I like the game the way it is and it is not FFXI, i still think about what im doing and be careful because i don't want to die.

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Originally Posted by Overkill9000

i don't think they should be so severe that it makes you downright violent when you die though. let's face it, there's gonna be some parties that you die in a lot and if you are too afraid of death that you wouldn't even try it, how fun can things get?

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This is exactly the problems. People die a lot or do stupid things because there is no real penalty.
And waiting 3min isnt nearly the same as loosing 5.000SP unless you fight 24/7 to earn skill points.
As people said. Dying could be even convenient as it is now. (Cigarrette, Bathroombrake etc)

The game is way to easy leading to a lot of players who are not concerned of what they are doing in this game.
We just need to look at behests ppl attacking without thinking.

And people complaining about losing fun.
For me its no fun fighting a battle where I dont care if i win or lose or fighting with a group of people where 50% of them randomly do stupid stuff.

That too if they bring out penalty I will never ever pt with randomers. It's pointless waste of time.

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Originally Posted by viion

That too if they bring out penalty I will never ever pt with randomers. It's pointless waste of time.

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Why is that? In FFXI it worked just fine.
"Randomers" would be more concerned in what they are doing + people would want to help them more often to do so, whitch brings ppl closer together!

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The game is way to easy leading to a lot of players who are not concerned of what they are doing in this game.

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The game is easy because the content is easy, not because there is no death penalty.

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And waiting 3min isnt nearly the same as loosing 5.000SP unless you fight 24/7 to earn skill points.

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Or they could make you wait 30 mins (the time it takes to get back 5000 SP) and nothing changes. How fun.

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Why is that? In FFXI it worked just fine.

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In FFXI you either grouped or didn't play. There was no other choice, so of course it 'worked'. "Too bad" this game is different.

i like the current system.
you run all the way back and got a death sickness, which mostly expire by the time i reach the point where i died. it punish me for dying... thats all it has to do, it does it well, why make it worse or easier?!

in WoW, no sickness, there is dur loss which is laughable, and there you need to.... flay so fast or get summoned to the place you died at which counter the need to get back to where you died.
at least there is a decent punishment in this game.

First off I loved that you stated the problem with the current system, your interpretation, and then a solution. It wasn't just ranting but great feedback. These posts and everyone's comments will help the game go forward not the constant complaining, so I thank you for you post

Now to the real post. I agreed that FFXI death penalty is harsh. It took me a good while to get certain jobs unlocked because I didn't want to wait to build a buffer and would die dropping me below 30 and had to lv up again. Similarly WoW's death penalty is just a pain in the ass. I hate running back to your body in a ghost form, its a time waste in my opinion. Finally FFXIV death penalty or lack there of just always players endless chances. When I solo a leve I put it on 5 stars and make a go at it, if I die, I set it to 4 stars and continue. I repeat the process until I get to a place where I can complete the leve.

I like your suggestions and agree with them a lot. I think doing some similar to CoH and CoV is great. Yes you lose exp/sp whatever, but its more of a debt you must pay off. I like how CoH also makes it that you can't de-level as well. Also I like that when leveling after you die a portion of exp goes to pay off the debt while some goes to lv that way multiple deaths just aren't stacking up against you. I had parties in FFXI where I died 2 and 3 times and that would destroy all the work I had done with the party and the next week of soloing. I think CoH had a good alternative to death. Also, I like you raise idea as well. I hated being at a high level and needing a Raise II or III because raise I just didn't make the XP lose bearable.

I hope this post helps the conversation. Its early here and I am not fully awake yet :)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Running back from the bind and waiting for the resurrection sickness to expire is a time sink.

An experience/skill points loss is nothing else than another time sink (you lose the time you spent to earn that experience/skill).

It's exactly the same, in an apparently different form. The system can stay as it is.

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I agree with this. Die 3 times and you cant even go into active mode.

This does not need changing and especially not in comparison to the many other things that do.

The only thing I find funny with the death pernality is a Pve game like FF have death penerlity system from PVP game, the weknest effect is basicly use in pvp to prevent the contineus come back in pvp :D

Maybe the could reduce SP/EXP by 50% for 15 mins after death.

Good way = reduce 1 anima upon dying.

-this will prevent people who intentionally died to just use return.
-since you get return for free anyway, so cost 1 anima first should be no problem!

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Originally Posted by Alise

Good way = reduce 1 anima upon dying.

-this will prevent people who intentionally died to just use return.
-since you get return for free anyway, so cost 1 anima first should be no problem!

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I was just about to suggest this :D

I have been noticing a patter among my fellow FFXI players. Some of them seem to just want everyone to suffer, just like they did in FFXI. I really think some people really feel that way. I loved the challenges and difficulties that I went through, things that many people haven't went through. But, I don't want people to have to deal with losing xp like I did. Some argue that people that haven't had to deal with XP loss for dying don't actually fear death. The thing is, I don't think the people that have had to deal with xp loss actually feared death. All I thought about was the loss of xp. I didn't think about the fact that my character died, it was all about the precious xp I lost.

In every mmo that I have played where I don't lose xp for dying, I actually feared dying. I have made characters that I'm attached to and I don't want them to die. When it happened in FFXI, all I thought about was the XP loss and hoping I didn't delevel. The death in and of itself, really didn't mean anything to me.

Give me monsters that aggro by sound, smell, hp level, and all that good challenging stuff. But, please don't give me the horrible xp penalty.

If I wanted to play FFXI, I'd go back and play it. EXP Loss on death was my least favorite aspect of FFXI, and I couldn't be more against seeing it return. We now have gear damage, so let's toy around with that a bit more. There's no such thing as "DEATH," we just get knocked out, there's no way around suspending that disbelief - so harsh penalties for "DEATH" seem ridiculous. If, when we're knocked out, our gear takes a severe hit in durability, I'm all for that.

There are few comforts like knowing that your grind was worthwhile - that no one can take away the progress one has made. I like to solo, and I'd prefer not to be engaged in yet another time-sink by Behesting back what was once mine. Break my gear, instead. SP Loss for death is one on my very short list of "deal breakers" that will end my visits to Eorzea.

One thing I've noticed is that this game seems highly tailored to allowing players to not be forced into battle - if they wish to craft or gather their way through the game, they can still experience the whole of the story. If gear were to be constantly destroyed in high-risk battles, it'd serve even better for the crafter-mains in this world, as it would draw them into the fray. As the tanks fall and emergencies rise, players will have to make frequent trips to the Company's back lines for repairs. (of course, a speedier system for repairs will be crucial here, but I feel this is already a necessity.)

However, how does one prevent players from stripping to their undies and making a solo run for it with no consequence? The Anima hit mentioned above could prevent this. On the battlefield, people will be raised and gear damage will be their only concern - however, if making a reckless naked solo run for it is going to cost them a chunk of anima, then it's their choice to make that sacrifice.

How about no death and just when the player get to zero health he can just fight on at a weaker state so the player can decide to run away to recover from the weakened state or hack endless and get no where. Why does everything have to be about making the player wait, wait, wait, thats the oldest trick in the mmo book of wasting a player's time. If you want to wait for everything just play real life. xD

I liked how wow did their death system...

You die, you lose 10% dura on all gear on you currently equipped (Make it where if not wearing full gear + weapon all gear on you -10% dura)
You respawn back at whatever last aether you touched (no sickness etc but very low hp and mana)


Maybe make gear damage more noticeable too, like when at 35% you'd see on your gear the DEF 132 and beside it in red (-62DEF) or something and when its red DEF 132 (-101)

That way people can see how much their being penalized for damaged gear.. and want to avoid dying as much (especially with the lack of crafters these days as their all bots hiding in remote parts of the world)


/just random idea

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Originally Posted by viion

I am mixed between both. I like not losing SP because in XI sometimes i'd die a ton and lose a lot, but in XI it was butt-easy to get it back such as merit parties or now abyssea?

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uhh you're talking now..in FFXI it wasn't anywhere near as easy to earn xp as it is in XIV and when you lost it it was harsh...I liked it, I barely died, people always on the lookout, mages learned how to play their roles better, ditto tanks...it made everyone a better player because in most cases in a party setting if 1 person dies they all drop like dominoes. I say bring it back.

I think we need some sort of death penalty. as it is now there is nothing stopping me from running into a group of mobs like Leroy jenkins and wiping us all. hell we do it for fun and thats sad its about the only "content" in game atm "seeing how hard that mob hits you for" I mean sure we get to gauge mobs that way lol but come on seriously? weak effect only is a horrible Idea all it does is give us time to go get soemthing to drink or wc.
I dont think they have to make it so we delvl (witch i would be 200% behind) but some kind of sp penalty or huge item wear. something to get people to make a strat and stop zerging everything. I know the people at SE the people behind FF is not about zerg fests look what they did to KK zergs. ATM this game is full of people that think zerg first or have no idea how to use abilities for certain things. ie archers and conj not useing eminty lowering abilities. wether there broke or not. witch soughspeak is NOT broke.

If they bring the death penalty to this game im quitting. Hands down. I am NOT dealing with that stupidity any more. I left FFXI and I don't miss the death penalty. I shouldn't be punished to feel like my time invested in my character is a waste of time when I die. Especially because a lot of deaths are random and not the player's fault. You can't punish people for things they didn't do wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rayle

If they bring the death penalty to this game im quitting. Hands down. I am NOT dealing with that stupidity any more. I left FFXI and I don't miss the death penalty. I shouldn't be punished to feel like my time invested in my character is a waste of time when I die. Especially because a lot of deaths are random and not the player's fault. You can't punish people for things they didn't do wrong.

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Apart from d/c in a fight, all deaths are caused by players not doing things correctly, no matter it's in a party or solo, thus a reasonable penalty. I don't know how it is implemented in FF11, but the emphasize is on the penalty to be reasonable.

I agree with a death penalty, however i dont think it should be added until the battle system is fixed and things start working correctly. Also, Raise should not gain 100% sp/xp back, that defeats the purpose of future, higher rank, raises

Like someone else mentioned besides DC'ing all deaths are controlled wether it be not agroing not linking or everyone knowing what they are suppose to do. sounds like you dont want there to be set things you must do and your party must do to avoid death

How much is three minutes of your life worth?

If I had my way I'd charge about $250,000.oo per minute of my wasted time, so I feel the K.O penelty is right on.

One side effect of a heavy death pen is:
If there is an element of risk to anything, no one will help you. I.E> "Sorry man I 'd love to help but I can't afford to lose 2 days worth of leveling just to go exploring."

A death penalty is not the answer to creating a better battle mechanic. Creating a better battle mechanic is the answer to a better battle mechanic.

I would favour the loss of a percentage of sp/exp earned over a set period of time, such as 50% of the last hour of sp/exp earned is lost (just an example, I haven't thought over what amount would work best).

I would rather a loss of sp/exp purely on the basis that it's extremely gutting but you can still get straight back into things. Having to do nothing for five minutes would be far more annoying than gutting, as people would be waiting on you to rest up which is an inconvenience to everyone. However, if you die and lose exp/sp earned over a past period of time - say it was ten minutes - then you would know that in ten minutes you could regain that lost exp/sp purely by playing like you did before you died. Having a percentage of your level lost would be far more detrimental as in the higher levels that would amount to hours of work lost over a single death.

I like the current system.