Keeper of The Lake 2.5 Dungeon

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Originally Posted by Riepah

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Coil isn't immune to the whining which is why they're releasing two different modes for endgame raiding come expansion time. Also SE had an opportunity to drop better gear via savage coil but chose not to.

Better have a new demon wall that is actually difficult!

Please.

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

They already did it twice, so....

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oh? Please enlighten me? Fenrir? Not important in XIV lore. Siren? Wasn't all that big either. Diablos? Wasn't important either. So which "two" were "wasted"?

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

They already did it twice, so....

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Four times, actually. Siren (FFV, not in design, but in location), Diabolos (FFVIII), Kraken (FFIV, but with a different name) and Fenrir (FFXI).

Siren is probably the hardest of the four bosses mentioned (Deathly Verse, Deathly Cadenza, Feral Lunge, Lunatic Voice and crawling zombies and that DoT she frequently applied to the MT. All of these you can't ignore without a consequence), even after being nerfed. Fenrir and Kraken are tied in being the easiest dungeon bosses, as they have only one mechanic to them. Diabolos, while also having one dangerous mechanic, has a few other attacks that require you to move or stun (Nightmare, Night Terror, Ultimate Terror).

Going by this trend, Midgardsormr will probably only have one attack (Beta) and be easier than Fenrir and Kraken.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

oh? Please enlighten me? Fenrir? Not important in XIV lore. Siren? Wasn't all that big either. Diablos? Wasn't important either. So which "two" were "wasted"?

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You know it's hard to state that they weren't important when the storyline didn't even give a chance to be important. Did you know? Lore Wise Diabolos is much more important than the majority of the primals excluding Ramuh and Shiva?

You do know Diabolos is the main reason Amdapor Civilization is..basically gone right? Saying he's not important is like saying The Garleans aren't important to the storyline. The biggest issue with Yoshi's design is instances are their own little world separate from the actual world, which is why you probably think he wasn't important.

I hope the hard mode dungeons are optional. If they are optinal square Enix can make it difficult for the people who want a challenge.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

I hope the hard mode dungeons are optional. If they are optinal square Enix can make it difficult for the people who want a challenge.

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Pharos Sirius was optional and people complained endlessly until SE nerfed it.

Well that was because it was challenging with no decent reward. i60 gear (most of which were originally from AK) for beating a difficult dungeon? Should have dropped i70 gear or something...

All SE have to do is release dungeons that are both challenging (not Coil levels, but enjoyably challenging) and offer a decent reward.

Fenrir is PATHETICALLY EASY.

It's so sad.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You know it's hard to state that they weren't important when the storyline didn't even give a chance to be important. Did you know? Lore Wise Diabolos is much more important than the majority of the primals excluding Ramuh and Shiva?

You do know Diabolos is the main reason Amdapor Civilization is..basically gone right? Saying he's not important is like saying The Garleans aren't important to the storyline. The biggest issue with Yoshi's design is instances are their own little world separate from the actual world, which is why you probably think he wasn't important.

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Siren served her role from the quest into the dungeon, she wasn't all that important in the scope of things overall. Diabolos, while I would have liked to see more from him, honestly, he was nothing more than a boss in a dungeon, they didn't make a bunch of stuff ingame hinting towards him being this huge badass that we'd have to fight or anything, so while he -could- have been important, potentially, no, he wasn't more important than the primals, who had a direct influence in the story of the game. Don't feign to know what I do or don't know about, because yes, I play this game for the lore. I'm simply saying there wasn't enough about either of them to have people claiming they were "wasted" as end-dungeon bosses.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

Fenrir is PATHETICALLY EASY.

It's so sad.

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That's partly the fault of how well players are geared right now in comparison to the dungeon.

Snowcloak is an i90 dungeon when the average player ilevel is between i100 and i115, Pharos Sirus was an i60 dungeon when the average players ilevel was between to i50 to i70.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That's partly the fault of how well players are geared right now in comparison to the dungeon.

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It's not because we're overgeared, it's because he's oversimplified (dodge AoE's, stand behind stalactite, repeat). Yeti and Wandil are harder than Fenrir.

Whereas Siren is: heal player inflicted with Deathly Verse to 100%, kill crawling zombies making their way to tank and healers, dodge Feral Lunge (difficult due to how large the arena is and how well she blends in with the crystals), remove the DoT from the tank, stand underneath Siren when she's casting Deathly Cadenza (if the tank gets hit by this, the healer can only focus on healing them and no one else), silence Lunatic Voice (used to be the cause of wipes, especially if two or more people were hit by Deathly Cadenza), face Siren away from the party as her regular attack is a cleave. She was a healers nightmare and I loved it.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Better have a new demon wall that is actually difficult!

Please.

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Has thou forgotten ye old pre nerf amdapor keep df runs?

I would usually get over 5 join in progress slots for healer due to ppl rage quitting on demon wall cuz
1) dps too low
2) failing mechanics
3) derp moments
4) bees, just dem bees
" lb the left bee and we'll dps right"

Hope tht the new stuff/ boss can be of siren difficulty!

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That's partly the fault of how well players are geared right now in comparison to the dungeon.

Snowcloak is an i90 dungeon when the average player ilevel is between i100 and i115, Pharos Sirus was an i60 dungeon when the average players ilevel was between to i50 to i70.

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No, mechanically he's a joke.

You hide behind a crystal approx. 3 times & that's the whole fight.

Statistically, there's some merit there, but a lot of SE's dungeon boss mechanics are weak... 1-2 per often per boss.

WHEN WILL WE FINALLY GET EXTREME MODE DUNGEONS!!!

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

No, mechanically he's a joke.

You hide behind a crystal approx. 3 times & that's the whole fight.

Statistically, there's some merit there, but a lot of SE's dungeon boss mechanics are weak... 1-2 per often per boss.

WHEN WILL WE FINALLY GET EXTREME MODE DUNGEONS!!!

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Personally, I'd rather have *new* dungeons with extreme mechanics rather than the same old dungeons with extreme mechanics, but maybe I'm just crazy...

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Has thou forgotten ye old pre nerf amdapor keep df runs?

I would usually get over 5 join in progress slots for healer due to ppl rage quitting on demon wall cuz
1) dps too low
2) failing mechanics
3) derp moments
4) bees, just dem bees
" lb the left bee and we'll dps right"

Hope tht the new stuff/ boss can be of siren difficulty!

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The best part of the dungeon was that people failed it. Yes, please. Give us difficulty back.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Personally, I'd rather have *new* dungeons with extreme mechanics rather than the same old dungeons with extreme mechanics, but maybe I'm just crazy...

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I'm okay with that. Put these ones in the past and Heavensward Dungeons offering multiple end-game difficulties.

As long as the option is there... tired of the jokishly easy 4-man's.

Yes, I know I can strip off my gear to the minimum ilvl but that does very little for a seasoned MMO'er... mechanically, they're all still very easy.

There is datamined dialogue for 2.5 cutscenes already. While the text is missing, the actors are there, Midgardsormr being one of them, suggesting that he's more than a dungeon boss (can see him being the 2.5 HM/EX trial fight). Can see this working like Snowcloak, a main story dungeon that you need to clear in order to make way for the main enemy, in this case, Midgardsormr.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I'm simply saying there wasn't enough about either of them to have people claiming they were "wasted" as end-dungeon bosses.

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I think most people making the argument that those bosses were wasted are doing so based on their roles in Final Fantasy as a whole, not just the lore given to them in XIV. There are only a finite number of classic Final Fantasy summons, it seems a shame to use any of them for such minor roles, like what Fenir was given in Snowcloak or Catoblepas in Halatali.

Hopefully FFXIV will be supported for years, it seems wasteful to me for them to use up so many classic summons so early, with almost no story purpose.

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

No love for Toto Rak ? :(

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The HM version for Toto Rak, Cutter's Cry, Darkhold and Aurum vale was in 1.0. Never to be spoken of again.

So sayeth the SE powers that be. Amen.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The HM version for Toto Rak, Cutter's Cry, Darkhold and Aurum vale was in 1.0. Never to be spoken of again.

So sayeth the SE powers that be. Amen.

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TotoRak is the only one of those that was easy, Darkhold & CC & AV 1.0 can all go to hell...

Fenrir and Catoblepas I think the reason why Americans might see these as iconic "summons" is because of the games that came out in america first 1/4/5/6. In both 5 and 6 Catoblepas was a summon, in 6/9/11 Fenrir was a summon.

Catoblepas however was an enemy in pretty much every other FF title.

Similar to Diabolos a summon in 6/8/11 it's easy to see why we may see these summons as iconic when in reality the "iconic" summons are based on FF3 Ifrit-Titan-Garuda-Leviathan-Ramuh-Shiva, and then Odin/Bahamut. Odin and Bahamut are always seen as special cases because Odin's move is usually an instant kill strike while Bahamut is heavy dmg non-elemental AOE.

I guess long story short, what most people see as "iconic" summons is just a case of nostalgia, we grew up on 1-4-5-6-7-8-9 think it wasn't til a bit after 10 where we finally saw 2 and then even longer til we saw 3 via the ds remake.

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Originally Posted by Airget

FF3 Ifrit-Titan-Garuda-Leviathan-Ramuh-Shiva, and then Odin/Bahamut.

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Garuda was actually a boss in FFIII. FFXI is the only Final Fantasy Garuda has ever been a summon. I'm totally being that guy right now.

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Originally Posted by Drako

True, with Diabolos and Fenrir.. I was going to say the same thing until I saw your post. Honostly this fight should be on the level of coil boss's sense hes suppose to be this big epic dragon right..

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I would put Siren in that tier of awesome bosses that they ruined by trivializing it to a dungeon.

Well unlike Diabolos and Fenrir (and Kraken), Siren was actually a challenging fight. As for her existence, well... she's a race. Possibly was the last of her kind (wiped out by the Lominsians, for obvious reasons).

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

Siren served her role from the quest into the dungeon, she wasn't all that important in the scope of things overall. Diabolos, while I would have liked to see more from him, honestly, he was nothing more than a boss in a dungeon, they didn't make a bunch of stuff ingame hinting towards him being this huge badass that we'd have to fight or anything, so while he -could- have been important, potentially, no, he wasn't more important than the primals, who had a direct influence in the story of the game. Don't feign to know what I do or don't know about, because yes, I play this game for the lore. I'm simply saying there wasn't enough about either of them to have people claiming they were "wasted" as end-dungeon bosses.

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It's already confirmed that Diabolos will make a come back, Devs commented on it and he has a unique death animation (yes he's important in terms of Eorzean History and the War of the Magi). While Fenrir and Siren are stuck with the plain aetherial disbursement. Which makes them less special, there may be multiple Siren in the world if sailors can be believed with their tales of Sirens. For Fenrir there's not enough evidence to say much, personally I was hoping he would be tied into Menphina's Hound (yes Dalamud was called this, but why call a moon a hound, wolves howl "at" moons, etc guesses).

Edit: It'll be interesting to see how SE deals with Midgarsormr. Him coming back to life would give a lot of special properties to dragons, like himself and Nidhogg.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's not because we're overgeared, it's because he's oversimplified (dodge AoE's, stand behind stalactite, repeat). Yeti and Wandil are harder than Fenrir.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

No, mechanically he's a joke.

You hide behind a crystal approx. 3 times & that's the whole fight.

Statistically, there's some merit there, but a lot of SE's dungeon boss mechanics are weak... 1-2 per often per boss.

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A lot of Siren's, the Captain's and Zu's difficulty came from hp% based add spawn triggers. To much DpS made the fights harder, not easier, due to having adds or hatching eggs at the wrong times. A group of i90s doing Pharos Sirus could very well wipe themselves even when otherwise doing the mechanics perfectly because of boss timers get out of sync with the add groups. Dogs spawning when the large AoE zones were up, only breaking one hatching egg still causes Zu to enrage because stacks have failed to fall of, and the binding Zombies spawning right before Siren jumps.

Fenrir seems oversimplified because the Iciclies/Lunar Cry are on a Timer and you can't get mechanic overlap. Several of Fenrir's mechanics are also ignorable because of how well characters are geared.

SE could have included a few more attacks and mechanics to make him difficult. They could have made the stalactites instead of instantly 'charge' at someone (which... I'm not entirely sure HOW they can do that), cast a 2 second cast time Blizzaja over a random player (it'll be AoE too, like Banish III). If the one or two stalactites were still 'alive' between Lunar Cry phases (when Fenrir is casting that attack, they'll switch from casting Blizzaja to charge instead. This is so melee DPS aren't at a massive disadvantage), they will do an arena wide AoE explosion and give Fenrir one-three stacks, depending on how many weren't destroyed. The stacks could also change one attack to something a little dangerous and add some mild annoyances for another.

Let's take Heavensward Howl for example. When fighting him, he will only use that on the tank. With a stack, he instead turns to face a random player (who is not the tank) and does the breath attack that will cover the entire arena he's facing. If he gets two stacks, any time he uses Thousand Year Storm, those miniature ice sprites will appear and swarm the DPS and Healer, exploding shortly after reaching their destination. If for whatever reason the party allow him to get three stacks, then Lunar Cry will destroy the protective stalactite and freeze the players. With three stacks (which also gives Fenrir a Damage Up buff), Fenrir's Ecliptic Bite will guarantee a wipe. This idea is mostly to keep people from ignoring mechanics.

That could have probably been a far more interesting fight and yes, forgot to mention it, you would also need to destroy the third stalactite (which will not attack you with Blizzaja, but will have a DoT aura when you stand near it) as well. Especially after Lunar Cry (it will have lower HP, but you'd still have about 3-5 seconds to destroy it).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Well unlike Diabolos and Fenrir (and Kraken), Siren was actually a challenging fight. As for her existence, well... she's a race. Possibly was the last of her kind (wiped out by the Lominsians, for obvious reasons).

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Hey they can't be having their ships crash on rocks can you imagine how much money Limsa would lose. How ever there wer 3 sirens in 1.0 that wer a part of the blacksmith quest but they were in the form of the 5 races.

I wanna see a Toto-Rak HM just so I can hear an extended instrumental version of "The Dark's Embrace".

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Hey they can't be having their ships crash on rocks can you imagine how much money Limsa would lose. How ever there wer 3 sirens in 1.0 that wer a part of the blacksmith quest but they were in the form of the 5 races.

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That was a girls music group.
They used a microphone the one blacksmith created after he fought against sirens on a ship.

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Originally Posted by Defteros

I want Aurum Vale HM!!!! (said no one ever)

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Says ME!!! Aurum Vale was and is awesome - pretty much the only sub 50 dungeon that STILL presents a challenge! Sadly, I'd probably be disappointed by AV HM; a lot, maybe even most of the so-called "hard mode" dungeons are actually much easier than their normal equivalents due to overgearing.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Better have a new demon wall that is actually difficult!

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Bring back the bees! The beeeeees! D:

Sorry, I'm left out of the loop. Where did you find this info? Was it the Tokyo fan fest or something? You're speaking as if it's common knowledge from patch notes or something lol. The live stream was last night I think and it's way too late I'm the night for it to be common knowledge this early in the morning, especially in the middle of the week lol.

From here, my good man.

i think , the last boss is a group of beast tribe trying to summon midgarsormr , but they fail and summon something else

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Originally Posted by fireslash

i think , the last boss is a group of beast tribe trying to summon midgarsormr , but they fail and summon something else

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Midgardsormr isn't a Primal, yet anyway, I guess the more we learn about Primals the more possibilities there are. I think Yoshida once described it along the lines of "For the dragons, Bahamut = Primal, Nidhogg = King, Midgardsormr is in between". Case and point though; Primals don't leave behind a body (Bahamut only did because of Allagan techno-wizardry), while Midgardsormrs corpse is the main feature of Mor Dhona.

I believe I actually made a post forever ago back in beta along the lines of a Keeper of the Lake dungeon, with the final boss being Midgardsormr poking his head into the battle room for you to fight... Gonna be amazed if they actually do anything like that... Given there was a seal under Silvertears Lake before the Aguris/Midgardsormr crashed into it, I wonder if the dungeon might not be going underground to investigate that though. Would have significant story relevance considering the current plan to deal with the Ascians is to find a way to seal them.

Wasn't Midgardsormr himself(?) the seal?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Wasn't Midgardsormr himself(?) the seal?

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No, he was the gaurdian of the seal. The seal was inside of the lake. (Presumable the seal is what actually exploded thus realeasing the primals and the aether they were traped inside.)

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Considering what they did to Diabolos and Fenrir, don't be surprised if it's a 4 man dungeon boss.

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He's too big. He's literally wrapped around the airship, inside which we'll be tiny. Unless we fight parts of him, I doubt he'll be a boss in his full form. He's not made of aether like the primals, so he can't resize. I wouldn't be shocked if he wakes up and puts the Heavensward story arc into motion.

Thing is, unless some sort of phasing comes into play, Midgardsormr's corpse HAS to stay wrapped around the Agrius. Otherwise, new people who start playing later will wonder why, in the 2.4 quest, we're talking about the dead dragon's body if it isn't there any longer.

I'm thinking more that his soul is reborn into a new body - the corpse needs to stay there, but nobody says he can't have been reborn into a new physical body somewhere, growing for the last however many years, pissed off and ready to get revenge.