Stoneskin II

WHM's are always the SS whores anyway, what's it matter? If you're doing anything that requires you to pre SS the party you generally have a WHM to begin with. Kneel to your Stoneskin 2 overlords!!!

Just want to add that SS2 is freakin amazing and i have a little party every time i cast it now. <3

I feel like some people are missing the point here. This isn't a debate about WHM vs SCH because honestly, nothing has changed on that front. This is about a small QoL change that wouldn't change the balance of the classes so bringing up individual skills that each class has is completely pointless and doesn't contribute to the discussion. SSII can ONLY be used OUT of battle and just makes it easier for WHMs to SS the whole party at once. All I'm asking is for SCHs to get SSII too as a QoL change.

Also, since we're talking about QoL changes, why is the cast time on SSII 6 seconds anyway? They should've kept it at the same cast time as the original SS, IMO.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

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I brought up the skills in order to try to understand where SE might have been going in the mindset of giving it just to WHMs... IE possibly just a basic skill (amount?) balance, being that they have one AoE buff - not a whos better or not... of which I don't think theres a better/worse, just different play styles from them.
Though some had gone straight to that mindset in the thread, anyway.

Also, yeah =_= The cast time is a little annoying - it's almost as long as clicking everyone one by one anyway (or it feels like it >_>) but could be because they took the point of multiple casts into consideration. I'm fairly sure it's a lot shorter than it would be to SS 8 people (....but still long enough for people to scoot away out of range anyway).

I'm not against SCH gettign SSII, as well, since they still have to chase people down (.....but then again, even with SSII, I still have to chase people down with regular SS) - just that it's possible SE didn't think it was as necessary when looking at the straight skill comparisons. THey could have been under the impression -just looking at the descriptions - that the SCH AoE buffs that come with regens were just as good (just different).

But I can only speculate and guess.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

All I'm asking is for SCHs to get SSII too as a QoL change.

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Scholar simply doesn't need it. Heck, they don't really even need regular stoneskin, it's more of a convenience anyway. The casting costs are more expensive than just throwing up an Adlo and being done with it, and the 'stoneskin' on Adlo is generally superior to boot. On any content you'll actually want Stoneskin on, you'll likely have a WHM in the group to take care of it instead.

Besides, Scholar's already have the benefit of having a secondary healer on tap. Can't WHM just have something nice without you trying to steal it away?

Scholars don't really need stoneskin 99% of the time. (Except for maybe raids where stoneskin II would be worthless anyway.)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Scholar simply doesn't need it. Heck, they don't really even need regular stoneskin, it's more of a convenience anyway. The casting costs are more expensive than just throwing up an Adlo and being done with it, and the 'stoneskin' on Adlo is generally superior to boot. On any content you'll actually want Stoneskin on, you'll likely have a WHM in the group to take care of it instead.

Besides, Scholar's already have the benefit of having a secondary healer on tap. Can't WHM just have something nice without you trying to steal it away?

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Once again it's not about needing it or not. SE gave us Stoneskin. We use it as a shield BEFORE the battle to soak up a little bit of extra damage at the start of battle. It doesn't change anything about how either class functions in battle. We're not asking to play in the WHM sandbox and take all your toys away. Stop acting like that's what we're asking for. We're asking to have the same convenience that WHMs jut received. We can literally cast stoneskin on the party the same as you guys can already. The difference is that we have to press more buttons to do the same thing while you guys can just press 1 button.

Since people here are so adamant that there is no need for SCH to Stoneskin a raid before a fight, I shall not Stoneskin a raid before a fight anymore when on SCH. Thank you for opening my eyes, forum people.

It actually is pretty amazing how many people are mis-interpretting the request @.@

WHM having AoE Stoneskin isn't game-breaking - it's a convenience
SCH gettings the same AoE Stoneskin isn't game breaking either - it's a convenience in content where you may not have a WHM partner there (DF'd Primals / ST / CT / Coil )

Would it be nice for SCHs to get an AoE Stoneskin? Yes
Is it necessary? No.
Would SCHs getting AoE Stoneskin take away from WHMs? Nope, because the ability of Stoneskin II was designed to be a QoL convenience.

SCHs getting the same ability to stoneskin the entire party before a boss pull in any DFable 8-man / 4 man isn't going to make them suddenly significantly more desirable then a WHM. It just means you won't need to wait as long to buff people.

That's... all.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Since people here are so adamant that there is no need for SCH to Stoneskin a raid before a fight, I shall not Stoneskin a raid before a fight anymore when on SCH. Thank you for opening my eyes, forum people.

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It's the typical "stop bringing flaws from this perfect game into light" mentality. If you look back at one of the main initial threads suggesting an AoE Stoneskin that was recently bumped, you can see the first reply is basically "it's not needed stop being lazy /thread". I guess it's also because only Coil and well balanced preformed groups count and other content is irrelevant, which is true but still, thus it's not needed for all the rest of the content in their mind. Even though Adlo + Stoneskin + manual Embrace is great so you can go all out on damage (no, I know at least one of you want to go there but don't, don't do the "healers heal they don't DPS" thing).

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Also, yeah =_= The cast time is a little annoying - it's almost as long as clicking everyone one by one anyway (or it feels like it >_>) but could be because they took the point of multiple casts into consideration. I'm fairly sure it's a lot shorter than it would be to SS 8 people (....but still long enough for people to scoot away out of range anyway).

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The cast time and mana cost are exactly twice what they are for SS.
And I still need swiftcast to get it off before someone pulls in Syrcus Tower.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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*hits 'Like'*

I'm not against SCH getting SSII as a cross class, but I'd prefer SSII to remain CNJ/WHM specific since they made SSII a level 50 CNJ ability. (To note, I play both WHM and SCH).

SSII is, as many have already said, was a skill given for WHM convenience just to shave off 30 seconds of casting before a battle starts. The way I see it is just because WHM gets it doesn't automatically mean SCH should. It would certainly be helpful for SCH to get an extra 10% health shield up on everyone with one button before the start of battle, but I don't see this as being a justifiable reason for SCH to get a 2nd tier version of a CNJ spell gained at level 50.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I'm not against SCH getting SSII as a cross class, but I'd prefer SSII to remain CNJ/WHM specific since they made SSII a level 50 CNJ ability. (To note, I play both WHM and SCH).

SSII is, as many have already said, was a skill given for WHM convenience just to shave off 30 seconds of casting before a battle starts. The way I see it is just because WHM gets it doesn't automatically mean SCH should. It would certainly be helpful for SCH to get an extra 10% health shield up on people before the start of battle, but I don't see this as being a justifiable reason for SCH to get a 2nd tier version of a CNJ spell gained at level 50.

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I'm not asking for the 18% version. I merely want our 10% version. Trust me, I'd be livid if SE went ahead and gave us the 18% of the skill. That, I would argue, would cause imbalances between the two classes. An AoE version of what we have now that can only be used out of battle is all I'm asking for.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

I'm not asking for the 18% version. I merely want our 10% version. Trust me, I'd be livid if SE went ahead and gave us the 18% of the skill. That, I would argue, would cause imbalances between the two classes. An AoE version of what we have now that can only be used out of battle is all I'm asking for.

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I never said anything about getting Graniteskin on SCH, no idea where you got that from.

Stoneskin II is an ability for CNJ gained at level 50. Graniteskin is a trait.

EDIT: Maybe you saw "second tier" and thought I meant Graniteskin. By "second tier" I meant Stoneskin II; like Cure II, Medica II, etc.

SSII because of the increased cast time was meant to have more effect on raid situations. Not saying that double scholar in this situations is not a valid option but it should in most cases have a whm present to deal with the stone skin. So I am one of those people who play both classes quite a bit and would care less if they gave me the cross class ability or possibly saved it for when the level cap increases.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I never said anything about getting Graniteskin on SCH, no idea where you got that from.

Stoneskin II is an ability for CNJ at level 50. Graniteskin is a trait.

EDIT: Maybe you saw "second tier" and thought I meant Graniteskin. By "second tier" I meant Stoneskin II; like Cure II, Medica II, etc.

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Stoneskin 2 specifically gives 18%. It is not affected by the Graniteskin trait. So if the skill itself could be cross-classed it would carry the 18% with it. That's the source of the confusion.

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Originally Posted by Sagittarian

Stoneskin 2 specifically gives 18%. It is not affected by the Graniteskin trait. So if the skill itself could be cross-classed it would carry the 18% with it. That's the source of the confusion.

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Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

(....but still long enough for people to scoot away out of range anyway).

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Simple solution: Cast Stoneskin II before Protect. Anyone that runs off to do battle without Protect on deserves whatever they get, and you don't need to feel any guilt! :D

lolwat? SSII is just for pre-pull buff. It's the same as SSI except it saves WHM times to recast it for every pt members. It doesn't make WHM better than SCH in battle.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

This means that there'll be LOADS of times where an instance is being healed by a double scholar combo.

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I'm not sure what these loads of times are you speak of. Unless you think you need stoneskin to do outdated content.

Should they have gotten it? Sure it makes sense. But saying its necessary is a gross overstatement.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

I'm not sure what these loads of times are you speak of. Unless you think you need stoneskin to do outdated content.

Should they have gotten it? Sure it makes sense. But saying its necessary is a gross overstatement.

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Can you please read the whole thread before responding? :/ I've already said many times that I know it's not necessary. Your response doesn't even match what this thread is about. Following your logic, should WHMs have gotten SSII? It's not exactly necessary.

Jesus, everyone is angry over a small request. Giving SCH the ability to AoE stone skin won't imbalance a damn thing. It is not uncommon to have 2 SCH, and there's easily a 50% chance of getting a SCH in 4 man content. Its literally wanted for the same reason WHM wanted it: to speed things up between pulls a little bit.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

Can you please read the whole thread before responding? :/ I've already said many times that I know it's not necessary. Your response doesn't even match what this thread is about. Following your logic, should WHMs have gotten SSII? It's not exactly necessary.

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Necessary, no. However in White Mage's case it both makes sense AND serves a utility purpose. WHM stoneskin, as you've rightly noted is 18% which is not an insignificant amount of damage reduction. Thus, having it on WHM both saves time AND serves a useful purpose.

Scholar getting Stoneskin II would be silly. Firstly, Scholar doesn't even get SS1 by default, they have to cross-class it. Having tier 2 of a spell they don't even get tier 1 of is just ridiculous. Secondly, the measly offerings gained by a 10% stoneskin you can only cat outside of combat don't justify wasting a cross class slot on it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

... don't justify wasting a cross class slot on it.

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There are countless useless cross class skills. Stoneskin II would surely beat Blizzard II, and make just as much sense. Change the 18% to 10% and the rest of your first paragraph can remain the same in SCH's case - it saves time and serves a purpose.
Your arguments against SCH receiving Stoneskin II are pretty weak and invalidated entirely by some of the already available crossclass skills.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

There are countless useless cross class skills. Stoneskin II would surely beat Blizzard II, and make just as much sense. Change the 18% to 10% and the rest of your first paragraph can remain the same in SCH's case - it saves time and serves a purpose.
Your arguments against SCH receiving Stoneskin II are pretty weak and invalidated entirely by some of the already available crossclass skills.

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Talking about useless cross-class abilities, how about Truth of Mountains? Why would DoM or DoW ever need this? LOL

Too many people missing the point of this thread.

The game isn't entirely FCoB and 4-man dungeons. Sometimes you get into DF SCoB turns, or DF EX Primals, where you have 2 Scholars. Sure you can clear them without giving prior untraited Stoneskin to the whole team. But Stoneskin II in and of itself is a QoL change. Stuff like this hardly ever "breaks" the game, nor take away from WHM's battle capabilities. Stuff like this hardly hurts anyone from having it - better to have untraited Stoneskin pre-pull, than to have nothing at all.

I also think it should not take a cross-class skill slot. I think the best way this should have been implemented is to have different behaviours inside and outside of battle - it grants Stoneskin to the entire party in one click outside of battle, but in battle, you have to pick who gets it. One quick change, not affecting traits or ability to cross-class that skill to SCH.

Also, hi Sully!

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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If SE had implemented this right in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The AoE function should have been a passive whereby you'd cast AoE SS out of battle and single target SS in battle. Unfortunately, SE messed up big time and didn't do this.

I mentioned before that SS stacks with succor. SS + Succor combo mitigates a good amount of damage too. If my succor were to crit, on a 10k HP warrior, I could mitigate the same 18% damage that the WHM SS mitigates. Mitigation is mitigation and I'm not going to say no to any mitigation that I can get my hands on. After all, SCH's bread and butter is damage mitigation.

Also, it seems your issue is with how SSII was labeled the skill. If SE had labelled it, something other than SSII could I have it then? Also I just checked and I can cross class blizzard II on my SCH. I guess SE should take it away and give us blizz I.

OP, if it's not necessary, then why are you still asking for it? Why all the fuss? Why the mentality of w/e whm gets, sch should get too?

Why the mentality of "the game is perfect as it is stop saying it's not perfect, oh wait I guess now they implemented a heavily requested feature, ok now for reals it is actually perfect exactly the way it is despite not being that way before, now stop saying it's not perfect again"?. It's the same mentality that, thankfully, got ignored and still got us an AoE Stoneskin despite people saying not having one was perfectly fine and the game didn't need one.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

OP, if it's not necessary, then why are you still asking for it? Why all the fuss? Why the mentality of w/e whm gets, sch should get too?

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Why did WHMs ask for it? Because it made their lives easier and not because they needed it. Maybe they shouldn't have made a fuss over it till SE caved? The issue is that SE gave SCHs access to Stoneskin. We use it as extra mitigation before the fight even begins. Why should SE give WHMs only an extra, non game breaking, QoL change when SCHs are using the skill in the exact same way for the exact same purpose. I don't think that SCHs should get everything a WHM gets. If I wanted WHM toys, I'd play a WHM and not SCH. What I'm asking for here is a QUALITY OF LIFE change. I don't know why some people can't understand the concept of QUALITY OF LIFE.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Then people would start complaining "OMG IT TAKES ANOTHER CROSS CLASS SPOT!" =p

[EDIT] To be fair though, what Lyrinn would be the path of least resistance.

WHMs get Stoneskin AND Stoneskin II at 34, both cross classable.

Give Graniteskin II trait at the same level you get Graniteskin.

Problem solved.

What I was directing my original post towards is the desire for players to want an elaborate way to make Stoneskin AoE outside of combat so they can maintain only using one cross class, as has been discussed somewhere in the Healer's Forum.

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No, I don't have any skills cc'd I would want to part with. Just give sch their own stoneskin 2.

A better idea would be to make stoneskin have an aoe effect outside of battle and lose that effect in battle.

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

Stoneskin II is just for a slightly quicker means of applying stoneskin TO START.

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This is exactly why white mage wanted it. This is exactly why scholar wants it.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

Not really. SSII lasts 30 minutes and stacks with succor.

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That 30 minute marker doesn't mean much of anything. Stoneskin II is merely for beginning battle application. After that, it can not be used in combat. We have to use Stoneskin I after that. Half the time I don't even get a chance to cast Stoneskin II as far as I've seen, aside from when i first enter a dungeon or the first few seconds before boss encounter. Stoneskin II is just for a slightly quicker means of applying stoneskin TO START. After that, you can't do much with it.

Just because it lasts for 30 minutes, doesn't mean it will stay there for 30 minutes.

Here is why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin II, Because SCH isn't WHM. If you want Stoneskin II play WHM. Or remove SCH from the game. They are different jobs. play them differently. They need things to set themselves apart.


Original request was mine April 2014

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

That 30 minute marker doesn't mean much of anything. Stoneskin II is merely for beginning battle application. After that, it can not be used in combat. We have to use Stoneskin I after that. Half the time I don't even get a chance to caster Stoneskin II as far as I've seen, aside from when i first enter a dungeon or the first few seconds before boss encounter. Stoneskin II is just for a slightly quicker means of applying stoneskin TO START. After that, you can't do much with it.

Just because it lasts for 30 minutes, doesn't mean it will stay there for 30 minutes.

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I'm just going to facepalm. :/ That post was in response to someone saying that succor = SCH version of SSII. I was saying that they're not equivalent. Also in battles with smart DPS, I've had SS last almost the whole dungeon and not wear off till the last boss.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

Here is why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin II, Because SCH isn't WHM. If you want Stoneskin II play WHM. Or remove SCH from the game. They are different jobs. play them differently. They need things to set themselves apart.

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This is an incredibly nonsensical reply. After all, scholar DOES get stoneskin. All we want is the same aoe version that white mage is afforded at our regular 10%. White mage is already set apart by getting an 18% barrier to our 10%

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

Here is why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin II, Because SCH isn't WHM. If you want Stoneskin II play WHM. Or remove SCH from the game. They are different jobs. play them differently. They need things to set themselves apart.


Original request was mine April 2014

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Then can WHM not be allowed to use virus and E4E too? Those are SCH skills. We need things to set ourselves apart.

Edit: Is SSII what WHMs needed to tell themselves that they're OMG SPECIAL? Because I'm seeing a lot of replies to that effect and it baffles me.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

Why did WHMs ask for it? Because it made their lives easier and not because they needed it. Maybe they shouldn't have made a fuss over it till SE caved? The issue is that SE gave SCHs access to Stoneskin. We use it as extra mitigation before the fight even begins. Why should SE give WHMs only an extra, non game breaking, QoL change when SCHs are using the skill in the exact same way for the exact same purpose. I don't think that SCHs should get everything a WHM gets. If I wanted WHM toys, I'd play a WHM and not SCH. What I'm asking for here is a QUALITY OF LIFE change. I don't know why some people can't understand the concept of QUALITY OF LIFE.

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Because SS is native to whm and because sch has already an aoe native skill aka succor? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having SS2 on both since I play both, but i see it as overpowering towards sch, when sch has aoe galvanize which when critted is pretty OP, and on top of that sch already crosses the simple SS. Convenience at pull? If you already succor the party before pull, and on top of that you would have SS2, wouldn't it make your party pretty much invincible and ready to go without even waiting? The sch would just cast his succor and SS2, call out the fairy and go afk even more and from earlier on (halfway kidding there). And with the long cast of SS2 you are forced to swift it, which with succor you would be wasting the swift.

And about the "mentality of this game is perfect as it is, stop saying its not"... The game is certainly not perfect and it won't be, you can't just please everyone, but for once, with this QoL, whm catches up a little on the healer popularity.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

Here is why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin II, Because SCH isn't WHM. If you want Stoneskin II play WHM. Or remove SCH from the game. They are different jobs. play them differently. They need things to set themselves apart.


Original request was mine April 2014

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By that silly logic cross class abilities shouldn't be a thing at all, yet they are and jobs still play differently.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

but i see it as overpowering towards sch, when sch has aoe galvanize which when critted is pretty OP, and on top of that sch already crosses the simple SS. Convenience at pull? If you already succor the party before pull, and on top of that you would have SS2, wouldn't it make your party pretty much invincible and ready to go without even waiting?

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I don't think any dungeon or boss fight does AoE damage right off the bat aside from maybe T2 and I know I'm forgetting something else, when most of them do then Succor is gone long before the AoE damage starts, in dungeons Succor is always a waste at the start and you only need to Adlo + SS your tank. Yes by that "no AoE right off the bat" logic SS2 isn't needed either, but there it is and the reason for it is because SS lasts longer. In most situations, aka the majority of content since Coil isn't most of the game content, that SS shouldn't fall off anyone beside the tank until something does AoE damage which can take quite a while, and Succor will have fallen off ages before that happens. Unlike Succor, SS2 can't be used in battle either, so no OPness there.

I'm just kinda... aghast at how this thread spiraled like this for one simple request @.@

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

No, I don't have any skills cc'd I would want to part with. Just give sch their own stoneskin 2.

A better idea would be to make stoneskin have an aoe effect outside of battle and lose that effect in battle.

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Funny how you managed to miss the post I made two replies before the one you quoted in regards to just that. I agree that making the change to SS soe it AoEs outside of combat is the best idea, but I don't think it's as "easy" to program as everyone thinks it is.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

Because SS is native to whm and because sch has already an aoe native skill aka succor? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having SS2 on both since I play both, but i see it as overpowering towards sch, when sch has aoe galvanize which when critted is pretty OP, and on top of that sch already crosses the simple SS. Convenience at pull? If you already succor the party before pull, and on top of that you would have SS2, wouldn't it make your party pretty much invincible and ready to go without even waiting? The sch would just cast his succor and SS2, call out the fairy and go afk even more and from earlier on (halfway kidding there). And with the long cast of SS2 you are forced to swift it, which with succor you would be wasting the swift.

And about the "mentality of this game is perfect as it is, stop saying its not"... The game is certainly not perfect and it won't be, you can't just please everyone, but for once, with this QoL, whm catches up a little on the healer popularity.

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A couple problems here. SS2 doesn't work in battle so it wouldn't be overpowered for scholars at all. Succor doesn't get the same benefit from crit that Adloquium does, as the shield from succor is equal to the amount healed whether it crits or not.

It is simply something that will save 3+ seconds whenever stoneskin is applied to the party.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Funny how you managed to miss the post I made two replies before the one you quoted in regards to just that. I agree that making the change to SS soe it AoEs outside of combat is the best idea, but I don't think it's as "easy" to program as everyone thinks it is.

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White mage's raise ability already works this way, albeit with a trait. Whether it's easy or not doesn't really matter.