New claim system, the death of open world content?

Honestly the game needs content period. I personally don't care if it's instanced or not as long as it's fun. Yes there needs to be a balance of both but right now we just need content.

Instanced Content > Open World content.

Honestly, playing a lottery to be in a lottery? No thanks.

I dont see why this would force the whole game to be instanced. It is important for certain endgame to be instanced so that you dont get a cluster f!@# when doing it. Notice i wrote certain and not all. i dont want the whole game to be instanced, i just dont see why you think it will have to be.

I'd argue that the majority of worthwhile equipment obtained in FFXI before abyssea was in instanced areas. Let's face it. Fighting for claims is frustrating, no fun, and a waste of time I'd rather be using to kill whatever I'm waiting for.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

I'd argue that the majority of worthwhile equipment obtained in FFXI before abyssea was in instanced areas. Let's face it. Fighting for claims is frustrating, no fun, and a waste of time I'd rather be using to kill whatever I'm waiting for.

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Lol your sig looks very inappropriate if you only see the top half.

But on topic, It's not a claim war issue that we're discussing here. Both systems have the same exact "claim" requirements for loot. It's balancing and griefing that becomes an issue with this system, for open world content.

I have yet to see anyone explain why this system is better than our current one. I understand many will not agree with me and are in favor of the new system, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me.

Edit: If anything, I'm hoping someone can convince me to believe that this new system is in fact better than what we have now. The chance of them changing their mind on this now is highly unlikely I'm sure.

Why not just change the claim system for instanced content and leave the open world one as is? It's not like it's impossible everyone could attack stuff in besieged or campaign regardless of party. Just make the loot drop in a chest at the end of the dungeon or something if thats the issue.

I really don't want instanced content to be the only thing the game has to offer.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

I honestly don't agree with anything you mentioned in here, I understand some of the points but I am 100% for the new claiming system because all the things your mentioned I find to not be a problem with some tweaking, which you know they plan to have a balance to it to some extent. Also they already said most of the big end game content will mostly be instanced in some form or another. I hate the current target system because its too plain and ordinary and I am playing a new MMO I want to see something that isn't like every other MMO. I guess I just more open minded with FFXIV than most people are, but then again most complainers on here want FFXI +3 and not a new game at all.

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Instances are regularly used in quests so I don't see a problem immediately spawning one that is timed say, by trading a item to a certain ??? Spot. Timed of course, to prevent squatters.

Though would that defeat the point of the rage timer?

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I don't have a problem with istanced content, i welcome it. The game sure need open content too, but in my point of view, content difficulty should be inside the fight itself, not the claiming. Sure you didn't forgot Fafnir being a bot war, and that's wrong.
But i bet a lot of people didn't care of botting before :||

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These are my sentiments exactly. The only open world content I'd like to see is stuff like Campaign where players have to work together and get rewarded based on contribution. I have a LOT more fun knowing I'll actually be able to do something instead of sitting around hoping i get the chance to.

About rage timers, it's basically a "Soft" time limit like what you have in instanced content. It makes it easier to design fights by making set time a factor so the difficulty can be adjusted accordingly and you avoid "18 hour pandemonium warden" situations.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I dont see why this would force the whole game to be instanced. It is important for certain endgame to be instanced so that you dont get a cluster f!@# when doing it. Notice i wrote certain and not all. i dont want the whole game to be instanced, i just dont see why you think it will have to be.

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10. If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you prefer for content such as dungeons and battle to be converted into instances as much as possible?
* "Instances" refer to those events and areas that can only be occupied by a single party, or certain characters, at once. This serves to prevent players from competing with one another for the same enemies, for example.

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This decision may have had a significant impact on the poll results for this question. Just like the question before it, it asks "If the current target claiming system were done away with."

I'm sure many would have still picked instanced content regardless of the claim system, but I wonder what the results would have been if we had an option to keep our current system.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

But on topic, It's not a claim war issue that we're discussing here. Both systems have the same exact "claim" requirements for loot. It's balancing and griefing that becomes an issue with this system, for open world content.

I have yet to see anyone explain why this system is better than our current one. I understand many will not agree with me and are in favor of the new system, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me.

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Well...I wasn't commenting on that, if you couldn't tell.

My guess as to why they're changing to a system like this is because of this:
I know I've seen people post of mob stealing in this game by bots. So think about it. When you use an ability on a claimed mob, your cooldown timer isn't consumed, allowing you to spam an ability until the exact moment a person loses claim for some reason. With this new system, the only way you might be able to steal "claim" for drops is based on dumb luck, if anything at all.

This is my guess. But whether or not it's correct is dependent on the specifics of the new claim system. On a side note, it's easier to help some dude biting off more than he can chew with the new system.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Please don't misunderstand. I like change too, and I'm not asking for FFXI-2/3/4/whatever. Although if the game does resemble any other game on the market, it should be its predecessor, in my opinion. But that's besides the point.

My question is what makes this system better than the current one? It seems with this system, all of the good content would have to be instanced. I like a game to have instanced content, but all of it? I think they're shooting themselves in the foot with this.

The game should have a healthy balance of instanced and open content, even if the majority is instanced. But the way things are looking, I'm betting 90%+ of the worthwhile content will be instanced, something I am not a big fan of.

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I don't see how that would be shooting yourself in the foot in any shape or form. Instanced doesn't necessarily mean dungeons, there are many different ways to go about instanced content. BCNM etc in FFXI was instanced and all storyline big battles were instanced as well. It all depends on how it is implemented. I am sure they will have more NMs and HNMs in the game they already said they plan to keep adding NMs etc. Personally I am a fan of it because I was tired of many of the things I wanted to do in FFXI and couldn't because of hackers/ bot users. You had 0% chance to claim an HNM if you didn't use a cheat tool when there was people there with packet sniffers and what not.

I am sure they are going to still have outside content and it will vary with purpose where there will be LS rivalry. Even though we really don't know they might be steering clear of this. They have two MMOs on the market and they want them to be for the most part totally different. Personally I would like to see story driven end game content that merge the experience together and hopefully we will be seeing more of that with things like the Ifrit battle and what not. We won't know for sure though til they give us more info about upcoming content and that likely won't even be talked about til after 1.20.

It's pretty obvious what this means. Exactly what it says. This new type of system is not going to help the open-world mobs and the future of XIV will have less mobs per density than it does now. Which means this is no game to get open-world HNMs those things won't exist to the degree that the fans of them would expect from SE. Sad but true for the fans.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

I don't see how that would be shooting yourself in the foot in any shape or form. Instanced doesn't necessarily mean dungeons, there are many different ways to go about instanced content. BCNM etc in FFXI was instanced and all storyline big battles were instanced as well. It all depends on how it is implemented. I am sure they will have more NMs and HNMs in the game they already said they plan to keep adding NMs etc. Personally I am a fan of it because I was tired of many of the things I wanted to do in FFXI and couldn't because of hackers/ bot users. You had 0% chance to claim an HNM if you didn't use a cheat tool when there was people there with packet sniffers and what not.

I am sure they are going to still have outside content and it will vary with purpose where there will be LS rivalry. Even though we really don't know they might be steering clear of this. They have two MMOs on the market and they want them to be for the most part totally different. Personally I would like to see story driven end game content that merge the experience together and hopefully we will be seeing more of that with things like the Ifrit battle and what not. We won't know for sure though til they give us more info about upcoming content and that likely won't even be talked about til after 1.20.

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I agree with most everything that you said. I know we'll still have some open world content, but how much, and the quality of it is anyone's guess. I know I shouldn't get too worked up about it as I'm sure there's nothing we can do now. I'm just hoping there's some things that I'm missing that would explain the benefits of this decision.

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Originally Posted by Ichi

It's pretty obvious what this means. Exactly what it says. This new type of system is not going to help the open-world mobs and the future of XIV will have less mobs per density than it does now. Which means this is no game to get open-world HNMs those things won't exist to the degree that the fans of them would expect from SE. Sad but true for the fans.

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that really doesnt ake sense given the fact that they just aded a ton of mobs to the game. Why would SE giveth and then taketh away.

Obviously we will have to wait until it is implemented to see how it really is... but just from the info we have, I'm really not in favor of a system like this. Like the OP I see great potential for griefing if this isn't implemented properly. I'd much rather see improvements to the current claim system than a wholesale change to a system like this.

i suggest to anyone who thinks a system like this wont work to check out guild wars 2, it looks amazing. you may still hate it after that, but seeing it for myself is why i am open to it now.

1st I support the move to a non claim system, the amount of times i've not been able to help someone who is trying to escape a mob is frustrating.
It makes no sense, much like the removal of the logging animation for other players lol (new pet peeve!)
But yes all systems have issues and a simple 1st tag/most damage only system is weak in that respect.
( 1st tag + sustains damage is at least a little better.)

2nd Open world content shouldn't be about loot, it should be community, content and environmental.?
Say Defeating (not killing but you still get loot) X type of NM's increases X mob type and its drop but reduces Y mob in the zone, an hour or so later all nm's come back out of hiding.
But it dose need to be worth doing, not just fluff content.

Or what about mobs become NM's over time.
Each zone can have upto 5 Nm's, these NM's are born of mobs that no one has killed (in 9hours).
This means 1st players would have to hunt them not just go to x location, you cant camp them so less standing in one place fighting with others for content.
(Add a quest npc to say "one in the north of BS", "Try asking at BW I hear they have trouble".).
It gives NM's a place within the game environment, not some Jesus mob that resurrects itself, its one that evolves to be harder. :D
Also the mobs could Drop pelts/hides that you trade for loot.

3rd Open world NM's are a bad concept though in the current form, I think the leve system could be used much better for these mobs then just open world ones that get farmed/argued over.
I've seen R50s push a group of R30s even other R50's off a NM, its pathetic imo.
And only really serves to cause issue amongst the player base.
Yes they have the right its a open world monster, and the current or new system will do nothing to help this.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i suggest to anyone who thinks a system like this wont work to check out guild wars 2, it looks amazing. you may still hate it after that, but seeing it for myself is why i am open to it now.

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GW2 does look like an amazing game, I agree. However, observing it in its current state does not help either side of the argument, yet.

For one, GW2's leveling system is completely different. If I'm not mistaken, you're level increases on a timed basis, not by exp (90 minutes per level I think?) I may be wrong, it might still have exp, but no matter what you do in the game it all contributes to progression. So the claim system they have has nothing to do with this.

GW2 also has a ton of open world content. The problem is it's not even in Beta yet, so no one can say exactly how their system will work as far as griefing/difficulty goes. And yes I know, GW2 is being designed completely around the "Skill" aspect of the gameplay.

It's just too early to compare anything to GW2 yet.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

GW2 does look like an amazing game, I agree. However, observing it in its current state does not help either side of the argument, yet.

For one, GW2's leveling system is completely different. If I'm not mistaken, you're level increases on a timed basis, not by exp (90 minutes per level I think?) I may be wrong, it might still have exp, but no matter what you do in the game it all contributes to progression. So the claim system they have has nothing to do with this.

GW2 also has a ton of open world content. The problem is it's not even in Beta yet, so no one can say exactly how their system will work as far as griefing/difficulty goes. And yes I know, GW2 is being designed completely around the "Skill" aspect of the gameplay.

It's just too early to compare anything to GW2 yet.

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in GW2 sine none of the mobs can be claimed anyone can attacked them. The more people that attack the hard the mob gets cause it unlocks special moves(some of which could be healing moves which would give it more HP). the rewards are tiered gold, silver, bronze. whoever participates in the most battle gets the highest amount of reward while someone who shows up at the end less. There is plenty of information out on the game you just have to look for it. Al this info came from the developers so it should be pretty accurate.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

in GW2 sine none of the mobs can be claimed anyone can attacked them. The more people that attack the hard the mob gets cause it unlocks special moves(some of which could be healing moves which would give it more HP). the rewards are tiered gold, silver, bronze. whoever participates in the most battle gets the highest amount of reward while someone who shows up at the end less. There is plenty of information out on the game you just have to look for it. Al this info came from the developers so it should be pretty accurate.

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I knew the game scaled you down in levels when entering different zones, but was completely unaware of it scaling the mobs mid-fight. That sounds incredible to be honest. But the fact remains, we'll likely never see this in FFXIV.

The system may fit with GW2, but I'm still very uncertain of the effects of its implementation in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Why not just change the claim system for instanced content and leave the open world one as is? It's not like it's impossible everyone could attack stuff in besieged or campaign regardless of party. Just make the loot drop in a chest at the end of the dungeon or something if thats the issue.

I really don't want instanced content to be the only thing the game has to offer.

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Because the current claim system sucks really bad.

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Originally Posted by Ichi

It's pretty obvious what this means. Exactly what it says. This new type of system is not going to help the open-world mobs and the future of XIV will have less mobs per density than it does now. Which means this is no game to get open-world HNMs those things won't exist to the degree that the fans of them would expect from SE. Sad but true for the fans.

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We wouldn't get HNMs to the degree fans would expect from SE? You mean FFXI HNM fans, the same fans that used cheat tools and sold gil because they had so much money they literally had no use for it, those players. New system will allow players to help other players if need be and for HNM I am sure they have thought of the problems brought up here and plan to put some type of system in there to prevent grieving. Other MMOs have a system similar to the one being implemented and it works perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Because the current claim system sucks really bad.

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Just for clarification can you expand on that?

Right now the main issue I know of with the current claim system is that you can't claim more than one mob or one party of mobs at a time, and any damage inflicted on an unclaimed mob lowers the sp/exp returns when the mob is finally claimed and killed.

Are there other issues?

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

I knew the game scaled you down in levels when entering different zones, but was completely unaware of it scaling the mobs mid-fight. That sounds incredible to be honest. But the fact remains, we'll likely never see this in FFXIV.

The system may fit with GW2, but I'm still very uncertain of the effects of its implementation in XIV.

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i tried to find the game play vid on you tube but there are to many to go through right now. the one im referring to is narrated by the producer and it shows the open world quest system that is similar to rifts rift system except after you finish the quest it has world impact and other quest open up. anyways, it shows 2 guys taking down a mob and a third guy shows up and unlocks the mobs aoe move and kills 2 of the guys.

Now im not saying GW2 is better then FFxiv or the system should be a close of that or anything of the sort.
Just that im open to a system like this, and for loot drops in GW2 if the first people on the scene are guaranteed 1st rate drops that would make other players not want to steel you nm, cause what would be the point.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i tried to find the game play vid on you tube but there are to many to go through right now. the one im referring to is narrated by the producer and it shows the open world quest system that is similar to rifts rift system except after you finish the quest it has world impact and other quest open up. anyways, it shows 2 guys taking down a mob and a third guy shows up and unlocks the mobs aoe move and kills 2 of the guys.

Now im not saying GW2 is better then FFxiv or the system should be a close of that or anything of the sort.
Just that im open to a system like this, and for loot drops in GW2 if the first people on the scene are guaranteed 1st rate drops that would make other players not want to steel you nm, cause what would be the point.

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The point would be griefing.

They might not get anything but they can make your fight significantly less pleasant and possibly get the mob to kill you, allowing them to steal claim.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The point would be griefing.

They might not get anything but they can make your fight significantly less pleasant and possibly get the mob to kill you, allowing them to steal claim.

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^ Pretty much this. As was stated in the OP, imagine an NM has some ridiculous AoE move with a specific trigger. You're first on the scene and you get the initial claim. Someone else shows up and would rather have the loot, they then trigger this move which wipes your party and allows them to steal claim. Can you see how this would be a problem.

As others have mentioned, putting the /blockaid command in would prevent this though pretty much everyone would use it anyway so there would be no point in allowing others to help.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The point would be griefing.

They might not get anything but they can make your fight significantly less pleasant and possibly get the mob to kill you, allowing them to steal claim.

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Yea, this right here.

Griefing happened in FFXI too. PLDs from other linkshells curing the main tank of the linkshell who has claim on Fafnir for instance, then cycling through all their ENM generation abilities, causing a spike flail.

In XIV you can't do this with the current system because no one outside of the engaged party can act on the mob or the party. Once the new claim system is in place, it's back to the same problems.

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Originally Posted by Sigtyr

Instanced Content > Open World content.

Honestly, playing a lottery to be in a lottery? No thanks.

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This is why despite games with "MILLIONS OF PLAYERS!" you barely see people outside of cities in the overworld, open world content actually populates locals.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Because the current claim system sucks really bad.

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Ok so why have any open world content then? I mean if I wanted to fight a eft I should be able to open a menue and select:

Target: Lvl...42 Eft SPAWN PRS!

I'd rather a claim system that favors open world content instead of having everything instanced.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I must make one small point,

I see lots of low level RMT around, but VERY little high level RMT.

Seems between the complexity of playing a character and the difficulty of selling items in wards, the RMT are having a hard time getting characters leveled and making money.

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The best anti-RMT measure is to make it difficult for them to level their characters. So far, this is working - there are very few high level RMT that I've seen so far, and SP gains are gimped when many low levels join a high level for leves. So in effect, their progress is much slower than the average player.

Something's working, at least. :)

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Ok so why have any open world content then? I mean if I wanted to fight a eft I should be able to open a menue and select:

Target: Lvl...42 Eft SPAWN PRS!

I'd rather a claim system that favors open world content instead of having everything instanced.

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Pretty sure it's possible to have both if worked out right,

And for HNM was thinking... although in FFXIV I would be one of those that may never get to do them with current life style, Not sure but how about it's open world content but as soon as you/your party claim then it changes the field into instanced field ?? like say for FFXI you claim Fafnir and it shows big message FAFNIR CLAIMED! on each party members screen (if you win the pull) while in instance mode others can watch but cannot cure or do anything, unless the party requests for help. would be nice if these type of NM's or special mobs have their own/special battle music too + after going into instance the environment can change. Like say one type of dragon NM uses thunder move then weather changes to lightning storm while battling.

I dunno if I'm making any sense lol.

i prefer more loot in instance raid that open world hnm, the reason is simple, in ffxi ls with more mobs always win the clain, where is the strategy???

please no more ffxi, i want new game

To me, open world content feels more MMORPG like. Some instanced content is fine like dungeon for example. But if this game will focus too heavily on instanced content, I don't feel like playing in a world. I feel like playing in a lobby. I hope whatever claiming system they implement doesn't damage open world content.

If they seriously go this route im switched to SWTOR. Fully instanced games are so boring. And I can't wait to see all the drama from a shared attack system.

Why not just do what everyone knows already works and add in a call for help option >_>

I want to believe the team is not that ... naive... as to implement this garbage.

Why does everyone take an extreme view? Are you guys telling me open and instanced content can't coexist?

[Plus]
1. This change will fix the "large LSes have to split into 8 man groups to do anything" issue. Everyone can take part and have fun.
2. Players can help speed up kills to lower wait times - no more mob-hogging
3. RMT bots can be made use of to farm for you - assuming you can claim faster.
4. Related to #1, extremely large engagements can now be added to the game as content doesn't have to be always scaled to 8 people. Think big like true Wyrms.

[Minus]
1. Player griefing 1 - Claim mob to force other people kill it for you.
2. Player griefing 2 - MPK-related issues
3. Player griefing 3 - Intentionally attacking to lower loot or SP for the first group

All in all, I can see a lot of drama coming. But well, it can also force the community to grow up and play nice.
The lands are also thankfully vast, so it will force people to spread out more to minimize griefing.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Just for clarification can you expand on that?

Right now the main issue I know of with the current claim system is that you can't claim more than one mob or one party of mobs at a time, and any damage inflicted on an unclaimed mob lowers the sp/exp returns when the mob is finally claimed and killed.

Are there other issues?

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No not really, but even if that were fixed it would still suck compared to what they are bringing to the table.

The grief part of this system can be handled diplomatically, most LS I have ran into on Wutai minus maybe one are pretty cool overall and would not be childish and do something that would make you get less loot for outclaiming the target. This is a game is geared more towards adults, or people old enough to have a common courtesy and respect of others amongst this community.

Honestly, I think the player's polls were looking for justification to the make the changes they wanted to make. We asked for content, we get battle changes. We ask for an auction house, we get NMs.

I'm a little disappointed if this is true, since contested claims were one of the more entertaining aspects of FFXI to me, but on the other hand I can understand why they would want to move away from the greed and frustration that this sort of system incurs.

What would be cool, and what I hope is the direction they are going with this, is if there are world NMs that the players must join together en masse to take down, like the Morbol seen in the introduction video.

Remover Static NM's as loot mobs/ Add non static

Static NM#s effect what mobs spawn in the area and the % drop rats of x items
- They run away when defeated and wont repop for X hours.
- No other nm can be found/killed for 1hour.
- That Nm's type of mob has a greater chance to drop more crystals/shards

Add system where every X hours a mob evolves into a nm's (has to be at least 3/4 of X hours old).
Add npc that says we have trouble near XXX, npc at that camp says trouble near XYZ.
- Mob drops tradable item that an npc exchanges for gear
- Multiple items get rarer gear (4xY or 3xA+2xB)
- Mobs drop clusters

Very NM attacks zone (mini events)
- Good excuse to have the more epic and Big FF monsters as more then just trash
- Need large amount of players to kill
- Some have minions?
- All players get something for joining in
- NM kills all mobs players as it wanders the zone
- Wont de-spawn till it attacks the city and is killed by npc guards

Reduction to grifing claim system?
- Inital tag group get loot even if dead as long as they did 20% damage between then.
- non tag group players do effective 50% damage (damage counts as 100% for loot calculation)
- All other players have a 30/70 chance of loot if they did at least XX% damage to its hp