Red Mage - A DoM Tank Job?

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

Rosalynd, its the same in FFXI - and besides, why would you completely ignore SE's vision for the class?

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A: XI had a release stigma that impeeded the red mage for the duration of the game, the same sort of stigma that paladins and shaman suffered in vanilla WoW. Though in an odd compliment to WoW, their community got over that stigma, you clearly have not.

B: XI's vision of classes was heavily influenced by the community, such as ninja tanks. Not to mention that XI butchered the red mage more thoroughly than XIV just recently butchered the Dark Knight.

C: This is an entirely new FF game with its own spin on classes (evidenced by the butchering of the Dark Knight, Bard and Summoner), the red mage could end up fighting in melee using a rapier in one hand and a magitek shotgun / pistol in the other (shoots magic damage based bullets) and as long as they call that a red mage, it is a red mage.

A good way of implementing rdm ad DPS would be to make him chain spells after his melee combo.
I'd still prefer rdm to have an healer role tho'

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

A: XI had a release stigma that impeeded the red mage for the duration of the game, the same sort of stigma that paladins and shaman suffered in vanilla WoW. Though in an odd compliment to WoW, their community got over that stigma, you clearly have not.

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Gotta give credit where it is due. The reason WoW's community got over the stigma was because the developers revamped all hybrids to spec into a role in the trinity (thus making the subpar tank specs and the DPS specs raid-viable). And that was prompted by posts, feedback and arguments presented by the Druid, Shaman and Paladin communities. After the changes no serious raid leader could laugh at an enhance shaman or ret paladin, as they went from being jokes to viable members in a raid.

Prior to that you either tried to hide what you were (I've tanked dungeons during TBC where ret paladins would try to pretend they were warriors just so that they wouldn't get booted from the party for being lolret) or comformed to the whims of the hive mind and heal-bitched your way into raids.

i dont see rdm being DoW if its a tank for one major reason - spell interuptions from taking damage.
unless some of the magic or skills prevented you from taking damage for a split second? *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Gotta give credit where it is due. The reason WoW's community got over the stigma was because the developers revamped all hybrids to spec into a role in the trinity (thus making the subpar tank specs and the DPS specs raid-viable). And that was prompted by posts, feedback and arguments presented by the Druid, Shaman and Paladin communities.

Prior to that you either tried to hide what you were (I've tanked dungeons during TBC where ret paladins would try to pretend they were warriors just so that they wouldn't get booted from the party for being lolret) or comformed to the whims of the hive mind and heal-bitched your way into raids.

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Aye, it kinda says something when their community got those changes made and other communities could not.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

in wich universe have you seen that ?

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http://youtu.be/SuWhSMUSHfA?t=38m1s --- Here's some SUPERB RDM melee in FF1.

http://youtu.be/LEzSkgaL_qM?t=12m56s --- As much as I hate to use this example (Abyssea), just read the combat log for Fahros(RDM) and Triedge(WAR).
WAR hits for 197.
WAR hits for 224 (retaliation, and then for some derp reason uses Armor Break. Imagine what his best WS would've done?)
RDM misses his mainhand swing and hits with his offhand for 93.
RDM then misses both mainhand and offhands wings.
WAR misses.
RDM crits mainhand for 100, misses with offhand.
WAR crits for FIVE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX.
RDM crits for 135 main, misses with offhand.
WAR gets a double attack, misses the first and crits the second for 478.
RDM then misses both swings.

As I said, I hate this example since it's abyssea, there's atma, I don't know these people or what gear they are wearing (it's been a long time, that RDM obviously isn't wearing accuracy gear though), or what level they are, and the RDM isn't using enspell, this is an EXP PT and not end-game content, etc etc etc, but even in the Zilart and CoP eras, these numbers pretty much scale the same. The RDM is doing God awful melee, and the real melee is owning it up.

Do I need to find a FF5 video too?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The defining aspects of RDM are not its being a generalist, but the fact that it's a sword & magic hybrid. Doublecast doesn't make a RDM. Enfeebles don't make a RDM. Refresh and Haste don't make a RDM. Sword, black magic and white magic rolled into one are what make a RDM.

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How many times does it have to be said? RDM is a hybrid white and black magic user, who CAN do very mediocre melee damage. Where, in all of that, is a class that can do 5% less melee damage than that of a real melee DPS class?

And LOL, have fun healing yourself for 2K on your ret pally when things do 10 times that amount of damage. I'm starting to wonder if you even actually play video games, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

A: XI had a release stigma that impeeded the red mage for the duration of the game, the same sort of stigma that paladins and shaman suffered in vanilla WoW. Though in an odd compliment to WoW, their community got over that stigma, you clearly have not.

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No, there was no stigma. SE created the game, their vision was obvious to intelligent players who played the game and the class properly. Paladins and Shaman didn't "suffer" in WoW, either, where did you come up with that? I mean heck, they were 2 of the most played classes in the game for good reason (because in Vanilla WoW, hybrids were overpowered). YOUR vision of SE's RDM isn't the same as theirs.

And lol, you're one of those that think DRK isn't a tank too. Awesome, not surprised. You heard it here guys. RDM is a melee powerhouse and DRK isn't a tank!

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

How many times does it have to be said? RDM is a hybrid white and black magic user, who CAN do very mediocre melee damage. Where, in all of that, is a class that can do 5% less melee damage than that of a real melee DPS class?

And LOL, have fun healing yourself for 2K on your ret pally when things do 10 times that amount of damage. I'm starting to wonder if you even actually play video games, honestly.

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Ya know, now i think this guy is simply trolling. Best to ignore it from here on i think.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

Ya know, now i think this guy is simply trolling. Best to ignore it from here on i think.

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Noted and done.

Rosalynd, I just linked videos PROVING YOU WRONG, you can either provide counter-proof, or, like I said, you can continue to long for something that DOES NOT EXIST. I'm not the one that's unsatisfied. :) I'm actually in touch with reality.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

Rosalynd, I just linked videos PROVING YOU WRONG, you can either provide counter-proof, or, like I said, you can continue to long for something that DOES NOT EXIST. I'm not the one that's unsatisfied. :) I'm actually in touch with reality.

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You are proving the wrong thing though, at least not to me. Red mages CAN melee, they arent anywhere near as good as other melee fighters yes, but they can still melee.

They can also wear armour, that isnt as good as what tanks wear. They can also cast offensive magic that again, isnt as good as what other casters have. And, you guessed it, they can heal as well, but nowhere near as good as other healers.

They are a jack of all trades and master of none. This does NOT relegate them to the back row healing and buffing like you seem to think they should though.

Also.... Vanilla hybrids were never OP outside a few bugs that got hotfixed within hours (reckoning bombs) or using legendary weapons.

You really need to reconsider what mediocre means. just so you know, being a jack of all trades MEANS yyou won't be as good as specialized jobs.

I proved that RDM have nearly equal stats in melee and magic in most occurences, you answered by saying that it's worse than specialized melee. you miss the point by THAT much...

Also, way to counter argument with only 2 occurences, even if they had been accurate.


Edit : ninja'ed

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

ninja'ed

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Hah, sorry. Take solace in the fact you arent the only one thinking this way at least :P

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

This does NOT relegate them to the back row healing and buffing like you seem to think they should though.

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Yes, yes it does. RDM got some of the best buffs and debuffs in the game (I don't like anything past CoP, so I'm referring to that era). So yes, it makes perfect sense for it to stand in the back and cast spells. Why would it not, when all the other melees put RDM melee to shame? Not to mention the RDM is just feeding the mob TP... Instead they should be supporting everyone else. Debuff mob, haste melees, refresh mages.

In that FFXI video I linked, the RDM should have hasted the WAR and cast Blizzard 4 and Aspir on the worm. That is what an efficient, intelligent, GOOD PLAYER/RED MAGE would've done. And that is what SE would've expected them to do as well.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Enspells was a step in the right direction but they never took it further, much to the job's detriment. The saddest part is that it was the ideal way to let the job close the gap between it and the other melee DPS. Simply put, if a brute force guy deals 20 physical damage with a sword, a red mage would deal 10 physical damage with a sword and 10 magical damage through a sword enchant (the 10 extra damage could also come from a self-buff that allows the Red Mage to hit harder or even weaving spells with sword strikes). The gap is nonexistent despite the brute force guy being physically stronger than the red mage, and that's the idea that should be followed.

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I agree with this, to a degree. Though, you do have to consideration the fact that while the RDM is casting their Enspell, the brute force guy has already hit the mob once or twice. If your RDM is going to cast ANYTHING ELSE, that also needs to be factored in. And if you refactor to consider a RDM is going to cast a cure spell or two, then suddenly your RDM is dealing MORE damage than the brute force guy, as long as he DOESN'T cast a cure - and since dealing damage is all brute force guy can do, brute force guy is understandably bitter. It's a very difficult thing to balance.

I think that FFXIV has a lot of promise as a venue that can manage this balance from an MMO perspective - but I also think that the result will displease a lot of people. If done as a DPS, they will be have spells and abilities that put them on par with other DPS, but their curing and tanking abilities will be lackluster or even nonexistent.

Personally, this is something I can accept, as it would add something to the game that we currently lack: a front-line DoM DPS. Of course, we currently lack a front-line DoM anything, and RDM could fill the Healer/support role or the tank role - but whatever role it fills, RDM enthusiasts are just going to have to accept that its ability to fill the other roles are going to be downplayed. A RDM tank or DPS might get a modest Cure spell on a six minute recast, for instance, and that would be the extent of their healer/support.