Hey, Sincerely Thank You SE for easing up on Coil

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Originally Posted by Misery1337

Hello! I live in Pakistan and play on a 4mb connection so naturally I suffer from latency issues (around 200ms on a good day but generally 250ms+) I love this game and I love raiding a lot but due to my job, I cannot give this game 8+ hours a day or something crazy like that unless it's a weekend. Still, with all the free time that I have, I like to read guides and watch videos of coil and try and burn all the mechanics in my brain and then when I actually raid with my static I get some first hand experience with all those mechanics I had read about in the guides and videos. Then comes the wipes, we wiped for days, we wiped for weeks but eventually we got the turns down one by one and it felt SO SO good, all that hard work and weeks of wiping instantly paid off.

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Thank you for this example. Latency should NEVER be an excuse to nerf content.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I think you're saying that until they do add really good rewards for it. At the very least this would get what I could normal players to party through DF, we don't need the hardcore or the casuals. We just need more normal players like myself to be incentivised to use DF.

PS The term casual gets used by the hardcore way too generally. You can't term really good players who don't care/can't form statics casuals when their skills and dedication are actually really high.

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I honestly believe that using the duty finder for coil has such a bad reputation by now, that no extra reward would attract decent enough players to actually clear the turn. 90% of the time players just leave the duty after a couple of wipes.

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Originally Posted by Seth_K

Coils Should never get nerfed because then you shoot everyone single player in the head with a .50 cal. The fact is Coils is ENDGAME not story, even though it still has background. If you can't clear coils you shouldn't deserve to get a nerfed version as a lot of players have been there and struggled with the real thing for months b4 they got clears. Even in XI they never went easy on ENDGAME stuff.

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that is why having different levels for end game coils isnt a bad idea. Since I cant get statics due to my timings too weird, I have yet to beat T5, I have done 1 phase multiple times and have yet to see what is beyond it. Is that right ? no, it isnt, most of the time I cant get to see what is beyond this phase is not always because of me, after all I play with others 7 people, do I blame them ? no...is that right that I keep doing over and over the same phase ? no...should I get a chance to at least experience what is beyond it ? yes...should I get the same reward as someone that choosed to walk the hard path ? no...but equally I believe I deserve to see what is beyond this obstacle. If you have a hard content you can do that hard content, everybody will be happy or at least wont have anything to complain about. Just because you feel you had a hard time, doesnt mean the rest of us should also have it, sometimes even without hopes to pass it, again not because of us. Things evolve, and is right that people dont remain stuck at one point because of whatever the reason, missing out the rest of the game, which in the long run will disserve the purpose of the game aka to be enjoyable. I dont enjoy Atma farming,but at least it exist another option to get almost the same thing....right ?

XI is not XIV...what interest me is what is being done in here not in there

Either way it doesnt really matter, once the game ceases to be enjoyable, is time to leave...which is exactly what will happen in my case if I cant evolve after month of trials.

Mei

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Originally Posted by Seth_K

Coils Should never get nerfed because then you shoot everyone single player in the head with a .50 cal. The fact is Coils is ENDGAME not story, even though it still has background. If you can't clear coils you shouldn't deserve to get a nerfed version as a lot of players have been there and struggled with the real thing for months b4 they got clears. Even in XI they never went easy on ENDGAME stuff.

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If you don't believe Coil is critical story, you've never played 1.0. it's a direct continuation of that line. And answers the questions the founders of the community have had for years.

Also, FFXI is/was a horizontal progression game, there's no comparison here. The Echo buffs and adjustments just accelerate power creep for specific areas so that players catch up to endgame easier.

Here, Endgame is the current raid, not just what happens after you reach 50. Second Coil will no longer be current, and therefore no longer be endgame, when 2.4 hits. The timing is right. The development cycle is just faster.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

I think most of the people that are against the nerf is not that they think the nerf is bad but think that is too soon. Coil still relevant for gear. All the people crying that they just want to see the story should also wait until gear is not relevant

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That's another point that's been addressed conversationally. It seems to be the opinion of the developers that the relevancy of a 'end game' raid ceases to be considered 'end game' once power creep as surpassed it. In my personal opinion that also means the exclusivity of the gear should likely pass as well, so there's really no need for the call for removing loot from adjusted coil, so long as the timing remains AFTER the next endgame tier is out.

Again, my idea is to create a path that preserves the original coils difficulty simply for the sake of those who do not wish to take the easier road. However, I'm expecting that they will simply just leave Savage Coil to accomplish this.

I never tried the first Coil. Is it more hard than Titan HM? I only did Titan HM (in duty finder as usual) because of relic quest and I was useless there. The other healer had soloing.

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Originally Posted by Kashiro_Mayuri

I honestly believe that using the duty finder for coil has such a bad reputation by now, that no extra reward would attract decent enough players to actually clear the turn. 90% of the time players just leave the duty after a couple of wipes.

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No one believed FFXIV AR would be better than the original FFXIV either.

The only change they should make to any of coil 2 is that the petrifications should last for 32 or 33 seconds instead of 30. As it stands you can do the entire fight perfectly but still have a wipe if you get a 4 second voice followed by an 8 second voice as sometimes the renaults will get a second or two to become unpetrified and slap whoever was about to refresh their timers and then proceed to destroy everyone else. As it stands this can cause wipes and has nothing to do with player skill or ability, just rng

Or just make the minimum voice timer 5 seconds.

No other aspect should be changed. they can make and include a story mode as a solo duty with no loot for people who just want to experience the story though, I have no qualms there.

Honestly their going to adjust just like turn 1 and adjust a few mechanic for certain boss or monster's it's not overly nerfed to the point it going be cake walk for normal casual player that people make it out to be. For the gear from there many options beside coil true but the top end player will be past the current gear ilvl from previous coils anyways trash gear/vanity for the hardcore by that time.

All their doing is opening up the older content for the most part hardcore player will probably wont even be doing older content raids for gear situational odviously I.E helping a friend etc and mostly they will be sticking to the newer content anyways because it will be the bis item for that time.

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Originally Posted by Kashiro_Mayuri

I like you.

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Yea... That's how I feeling too personally regarding what he said. I unfortunately had a lot of members of my static drop periodically at the last minute. So I won't be able to know that feeling of glory (yet again.) But having challenged myself in other games on their hardest mode I can relate, it's great. I do wonder if those who are happy for the nerfs have ever felt this feeling.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

They have't discussed it in full detail. One thing that they mentioned was that being hit while stoned in T7 would no longer kill you but severely damage you. Prior to knowing exactly what will change though, we're probably going to have to wait till its actually patched in.

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Lol I can see it now...

"Hey guys, remember how you had to be careful to not hit anyone with your petrify thingy before 2.4? well they changed it now. it doesnt kill anyone so just point it at the raunud and we should be good to go."

Of course the raiders wont even bother doing second coil again if its that easy and boring as sin.

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Originally Posted by Zefiris

I never tried the first Coil. Is it more hard than Titan HM? I only did Titan HM (in duty finder as usual) because of relic quest and I was useless there. The other healer had soloing.

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Idk. Both Titan HM and 1st Coil were pretty hard back when you only had i70 gear, people new to the fights, and no echo. I'm not sure when you tried Titan HM but 1st coil is a cakewalk until you get to T5.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

No one believed FFXIV AR would be better than the original FFXIV either.

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I did, because it couldn't possibly be worse then what 1.0 was.

They'd have to come up with absurd rewards to make good players queue up for coil through the duty finder. I could ask any of my fc members/friends if they'd be willing to go duty finder T5, and all of them would say "hell no". Even if the rewards were that good. You're still going to wipe if you end up with party members that have never cleared it before, or just aren't that good. Sure, there's going to be some decent players queueing up but there's probably a 99% chance that you get first time players or bad players. Decent players will either do it with their free company, or through the party finder.

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Originally Posted by Kashiro_Mayuri

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You're using stats stats like 99% and your own FC experience too broadly.
This post gave me a deeper look as to what players like yourself want though.

Basically you don't want anyone who's willing to learn and put in the time to clear Coil to clear it.

It's really simple though. We don't need players like yourself to clear Coil through DF. What we need is incentives (items or otherwise) to make more normal players que up for DF.

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Originally Posted by Kashiro_Mayuri

They'd have to come up with absurd rewards to make good players queue up for coil through the duty finder. I could ask any of my fc members/friends if they'd be willing to go duty finder T5, and all of them would say "hell no". Even if the rewards were that good. You're still going to wipe if you end up with party members that have never cleared it before, or just aren't that good. Sure, there's going to be some decent players queueing up but there's probably a 99% chance that you get first time players or bad players. Decent players will either do it with their free company, or through the party finder.

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Some can be blame because of lockout currrently also though, but that be going away will see if they actually back up what they say about helping out others at that time I expect to see PF comment helping out first time players and set the gear ilvl to what recommended by default.

Shoot even maybe some of those elite putting up once a week hey helping new players for today for coil from (blah to blah time) please check PF or send /t that be a sight to see lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Basically you don't want anyone who's willing to learn and put in the time to clear Coil to clear it.

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Wouldn't that be incentive enough then? To learn and put time in to clear Coil? Isn't that the point? Why is nobody queueing for it then?

And what classifies as a normal player in your eyes?

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

You're using stats stats like 99% and your own FC experience too broadly.
This post gave me a deeper look as to what players like yourself want though.

Basically you don't want anyone who's willing to learn and put in the time to clear Coil to clear it.

It's really simple though. We don't need players like yourself to clear Coil through DF. What we need is incentives (items or otherwise) to make more normal players que up for DF.

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It's a dangerous avenue as well. At release of 2.0 Titan HM had plenty of incentive to kill for the relic zenith weapons and most people struggled with the fight until they memorized the rotation in the final phase.

The result: A cesspool of Death and Despair for all parties that formed through duty finder, and there was plenty of them.

Throwing more players into the mix could easily make for a very hostel environment. There is a magical line of difficulty when it comes to duty finder. If content is kill-able then the experienced players hop on board and the fight becomes "to easy". yet if it's challenging, then the experienced player hide and it becomes much much harder. It's almost a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" scenario.

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Originally Posted by Tsuwu

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...secondcoil.jpg

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Fisher Price Mode. Available Oct. 28, 2014. Please look forward to it!

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

This game is very casual, how would you feel if say you were struggling with something, after weeks or even months of working with a team of friends finally beating that content, that feeling, the excitement, then you meet a person who beat it after its nerf'd and have no sense of accomplishment but walking around with same loot drops as you.

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Except you'll have your Final Coil gear soon enough, so what does it matter?

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

This game got alot of content that caters to the casual and average player, coil is the only hardcore content and some people play just for raiding purposes, and when someone who got 90% of the game to enjoy themself with, Crystal Tower, Zodiac relic quests etc, now coming over and asking to make story-mode Coil, is like Orphan Oliver asking "May I have some more?".

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Oh man, you didn't just compare yourself with one of the most famously cruel characters in all of English Literature, did you? Oh my god, you did. /laugh Careful you might end up in the same boat as us pauper casuals some day.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLife

Wouldn't that be incentive enough then? To learn and put time in to clear Coil? Isn't that the point? Why is nobody queueing for it then?

And what classifies as a normal player in your eyes?

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No one uses DF because no one else uses it. And no one else uses it because there are no real incentives to do so. For their difficulty the rewards of using DF doesn't match.'

Normal players are all players who play really well in all content but don't form statics because of many factors from RL to game structure (it encourages solo play), etc.

Take this fire whatever it's worth, Toodles, but:

I think we pug'd you a few weeks back.
Either you or Tiggles. Don't recall.

But you have a lot of promise to the point where I don't think you need coil adjustments. Maybe simply a harder look at the people you're raiding with is all you need, man.

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Originally Posted by Niamh_Rillemaugh

Except you'll have your Final Coil gear soon enough, so what does it matter?

Oh man, you didn't just compare yourself with one of the most famously cruel characters in all of English Literature, did you? Oh my god, you did. /laugh Careful you might end up in the same boat as us pauper casuals some day.

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I guess it doesnt really "matter" but same time it does for me, to look back and see all the hardwork I put into it to clear it, the rewards I got to prove it.

I knew this would spark some reactions, and you might be right, I can end up in the same boat and not have a good static that clear content somewhat first. Guess I can say Im blessed to be with a good FC and static of friends that share same mindset of clearing hard content so I wouldnt start to worry just yet.
Like I said before, I dont mind they add echo, but I dont like they nerf mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

You're using stats stats like 99% and your own FC experience too broadly.
This post gave me a deeper look as to what players like yourself want though.

Basically you don't want anyone who's willing to learn and put in the time to clear Coil to clear it.

It's really simple though. We don't need players like yourself to clear Coil through DF. What we need is incentives (items or otherwise) to make more normal players que up for DF.

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I've had my fair share of wipes while helping friends trying to clear coil via the duty finder. At one point people just give up after wiping too much. That's when they stop using the duty finder and start using the party finder, or ask friends for help. The duty finder has built up such a bad reputation when it comes to coil, it's going to be very hard to make that go away by simply adding some rewards.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

I think most of the people that are against the nerf is not that they think the nerf is bad but think that is too soon. Coil still relevant for gear. All the people crying that they just want to see the story should also wait until gear is not relevant

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Yeah sure, but now you have a new coil to climb up to, with new gear.
You guys had coil 2 for like 6 months, it's not too soon. You guys don't even have content
to match with it but a few things, the rest you're just over ilveling.

They nerf older content is many...many mmo's. This isn't any different.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

No one uses DF because no one else uses it. And no one else uses it because there are no real incentives to do so. For their difficulty the rewards of using DF doesn't match.'

Normal players are all players who play really well in all content but don't form statics because of many factors from RL to game structure (it encourages solo play), etc.

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Nobody uses duty finder because of it's bad reputation, that's why.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Normal players are all players who play really well in all content but don't form statics because of many factors from RL to game structure (it encourages solo play), etc.

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By that logic then either:
"Normal Players" are never meant to be able to clear coil because it's designed for statics.
or
"Normal Players" aren't good enough to clear coil.

Since "Normal Players" pug coil all the time and the majority of them clear most turns, I'm not sure if your definition is accurate.

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Originally Posted by Kashiro_Mayuri

Nobody uses duty finder because of it's bad reputation, that's why.

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Reputation...FFXIV had a bad reputation until they changed it. The Zenith quest primals are also a good example of how people will get better at that content because of the incentive.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

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This would be your definition of a normal player. And I'm sorry I have to break it to you, but raids require planning. It isn't a normal dungeon. Even if you get a group together for 1 day a week. That would still be enough to eventually tackle the content if it would comprise these normal players you speak of.

And about the DF. Whose fault is this? The people that consider themselves hardcore players? No, they wouldn't queue anyway. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of the playerbase are casual players. Now if they would all queue for DF, queue times wouldn't be bad, but they don't queue. Why is this? Probably because even those 'normal' players don't want to spend their time hitting an unnecessary wall. Will an incentive like unique items fix it? Absolutely not. It will only bring more hate to the DF.

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

I guess it doesnt really "matter" but same time it does for me, to look back and see all the hardwork I put into it to clear it, the rewards I got to prove it.

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You'll have those same feelings after every patch its superiority complex really you clear something you consider hard to watch someone maybe casual be given a chance to clear, because they have different type of gaming style of entertainment mind set then yours is its understandable both valid style of gaming though but since it in a online game they clash.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Reputation...FFXIV had a bad reputation until they changed it. The Zenith quest primals are also a good example of how people will get better at that content because of the incentive.

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I think you're forgetting that in the end you're dealing with unknown people if you use duty finder. People can be good, people can be bad, it's an unknown factor that you'll have to deal with, it's something that's out of your control. It's obvious that you'll get paired with players that either aren't in a free company/static, or have nobody to help them through. Most of the players that can get help from a static or their free company will choose that route over going through the duty finder. And that's not just for coil though. Primals are a perfect example of that too. You speak of incentives, but incentives mean nothing when you don't even clear it at all in the end. I'd be more then happy to help people via the duty finder if the overall skill level of the players was higher. I don't think adding extra rewards would fix that problem.

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Originally Posted by odintius

You'll have those same feelings after every patch its superiority complex really you clear something you consider hard to watch someone maybe casual be given a chance to clear, because they have different type of gaming style of entertainment mind set then yours is its understandable both valid style of gaming though but since it in a online game they clash.

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I guess you can say for me its more of a sentimental value of effort? Not sure how to explain it. I want people to experience content the way it was intended to be experience and reward with same things I was.
I dont judge people for having a different play style than me, everyone should have equal chance at the content. When we do clash is when someone feel stuff should be nerfed down before they bother putting the effort into it. I know there are people out there that do put the effort into it but dont have a static or simply meet bad groups in DF because "reasons".

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

I guess you can say for me its more of a sentimental value of effort? Not sure how to explain it. I want people to experience content the way it was intended to be experience and reward with same things I was.
I dont judge people for having a different play style than me, everyone should have equal chance at the content. When we do clash is when someone feel stuff should be nerfed down before they bother putting the effort into it. I know there are people out there that do put the effort into it but dont have a static or simply meet bad groups in DF because "reasons".

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I agree I'm kinda in the boat of finding a group and stuck with Duty Finder when I do get time I do check party finder or try a learning group and currently on turn 5 myself. Mostly atm I'm try to get practice in when time allows, but people patience with each other in this game for most part is very poor standards to be frank.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Yeah sure, but now you have a new coil to climb up to, with new gear.
You guys had coil 2 for like 6 months, it's not too soon. You guys don't even have content
to match with it but a few things, the rest you're just over ilveling.

They nerf older content is many...many mmo's. This isn't any different.

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Yes we have geared our main if we lucky with the drop rates. We still have to gear the subs and offclasses. And we will have to relearn the nerf coil because people can't wait. Saying again people wanting the nerf say they just want the story so they can wait until that gear is not needed anymore. Every MMO nerf old content but how much time they take to nerf it? I play FFXI and it took them years to nerf old content. And people basically asking for a double nerf since the echo buff in their mind in not a nerf, but defenetly doing 20%-50% more dmg on top of the overly gear is not enough.

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

I guess it doesnt really "matter" but same time it does for me, to look back and see all the hardwork I put into it to clear it, the rewards I got to prove it.

I knew this would spark some reactions, and you might be right, I can end up in the same boat and not have a good static that clear content somewhat first. Guess I can say Im blessed to be with a good FC and static of friends that share same mindset of clearing hard content so I wouldnt start to worry just yet.
Like I said before, I dont mind they add echo, but I dont like they nerf mechanics.

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It seems much of the issue with the coils nerf is that players use the difficulty as a sense of measuring their worth against other players. The question is, why even worry about what other players do in the first place? So what, more people may be able to complete coils. But what does this have to do with you directly? Or furthermore how does them completing it infringe upon your game experience? Most of the new people who will complete it, you will never know and more than likely never even spoke to them.

This reply isn't directed towards you only but everyone who has a problem with other people doing something they have done. There is a reason why many casuals refer to this as elitism, while I don't agree with how the term is being utilized but the reality is they aren't too far off. The hardcore raider may say they are elitist because they completed hard content that the average player never tried to learn or understand. Sounds fair. But I'd say the hardcore player spends to much of their time worrying about what others do in relation to them.

i got nothing against the easing of content.

echo will be added, petrification will punish less, and any mechanics that they also ease will be less punishing...but they still kill.

as said, this is easing, not nerfing. nerfing is when something is made trivial, like what happened to high voltage. easing is when something is made slightly less punishing than it already is, like something that is normally a 1hko changed into a hit for high damage. it still exists, and it can still preforms its functions as a mechanic that can wipe when people screw up.

no amount of echo will save a team from a cursed shriek, devour, poor coordination in turn 8, or poorly placed meteors.

might help with the hornets though.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...uge_Hornet.png

I posted this in another thread but it applies here as well. This is because raid finder killed wow for me. It took all the fun out of unlocking the raid content by giving away free cool looking gear and made unlocking the story at less fun by providing immediate gratification. I really enjoy raid content more when you slowly unlock the story by slowly clearing all the enemy bosses. Sure, you could argue that I could just shouldn't do the easy version but, as long as it provides upgraded gear pretty much everyone will do it at first. Because of that, the raid story will be trivialized since I just saw it on easy mode. I prefer their current plan of making the story accessible to all once expansion gets released and I hope they continue this theme.

I think the idea to ease up on coil is an excellent one. Yes, Coil should be challanging, it should be difficult and the rewards should be hard earned, but there is a difference between hard work and suicidally beating you're head against the wall which is the steep difficulty curb turn 5 and forward sets.

I have legitimate grievances for turn 5 and so does everyone else. There is no warning or preparation for how terribly difficult it get's after phase 2 of the fight. Half of the fight is a DPS and awareness check. The fact that the other first coil turns dont prepare you for the difficulty makes it even worse. This is one of the reasons they should ease content. It should be hard but it shouldn't be so hard that if one person screws up, the entire raid wipes.

What people miss here is that this is one of the few mmos that still use gates, and that in a vertical progression game no one likes to be stuck in outdated content.

MMO's are built on getting rewarded for doing difficult and time consuming content. It's built on pride. Take that away and there's not much incentive to do difficult content anymore. Why bother if it'll get easier eventually. Sure, you get the satisfaction of clearing it, but you want to savor that feeling. Worst case, the 'hardcore' people will leave, which people say is about 10% (probably inaccurate). Will that kill the game? No. But we will voice our concerns as long as necessary, because in the end, we want to keep enjoying the game just as you.

I'm not saying I don't want more people to clear content. I want them to clear it like I did.

And really, the raid content isn't that hard. It requires planning, competent people and an understanding of the mechanics. All you need to do is dance.

Isn't this a bit too soon? The praise for the nerf, that is. People are still stuck on T5 /w 20% echo and full i110. I highly doubt they are going to find T6 any easier. Also, given the ways that SE nerfs, many of the mechanics from SCOB are still going to be around and will more than likely cause wipes i.e. blighted, astral field, not stone a renauld/cursed shriek. If people weren't getting around these before, then I don't think they are going to get around it now, nerfs included. SE isn't going to get rid of the gimmicks, they are just going to make some less punishing, but not mastering them will more than likely still wipe a raid. SE can't patch tunnel visioning DDs, delayed healers, and tanks that can hold hate. So yeah anyone want to take bets on the first post-easing "Ease the SCOB" post?

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Originally Posted by LiveVoltage

I have legitimate grievances for turn 5 and so does everyone else. There is no warning or preparation for how terribly difficult it get's after phase 2 of the fight. Half of the fight is a DPS and awareness check. The fact that the other first coil turns dont prepare you for the difficulty makes it even worse. This is one of the reasons they should ease content. It should be hard but it shouldn't be so hard that if one person screws up, the entire raid wipes.

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What exactly is it then that makes Turn 5 look so hard to you.. It's challenging, but certainly not as hard as you make it out to be. Especially now with echo and 110 gear. Honestly the only thing that could cause wipes now is players not knowing mechanics, or simply just messing up. If that is the case, find a better group. Don't have enough time to join a static? Join a free company and ask them for help.

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Originally Posted by LiveVoltage

I think the idea to ease up on coil is an excellent one. Yes, Coil should be challanging, it should be difficult and the rewards should be hard earned, but there is a difference between hard work and suicidally beating you're head against the wall which is the steep difficulty curb turn 5 and forward sets.

I have legitimate grievances for turn 5 and so does everyone else. There is no warning or preparation for how terribly difficult it get's after phase 2 of the fight. Half of the fight is a DPS and awareness check. The fact that the other first coil turns dont prepare you for the difficulty makes it even worse. This is one of the reasons they should ease content. It should be hard but it shouldn't be so hard that if one person screws up, the entire raid wipes.

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How can Square-Enix make people more aware of mechanics and what not when it's constantly requested that content be easy or nerfed?