Please give us "harder" 4-man's

No thanks, dungeons are boring mindless grinds.

We need more open world content. Duty finder content should be easy. I don't want more instanced content that 95% of the community can't complete.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

No thanks, dungeons are boring mindless grinds.

We need more open world content. Duty finder content should be easy. I don't want more instanced content that 95% of the community can't complete.

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The point of this suggestion is to make them not boring or mindless...

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

No thanks, dungeons are boring mindless grinds.

We need more open world content. Duty finder content should be easy. I don't want more instanced content that 95% of the community can't complete.

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But open world is a boring mindless grind...

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

No thanks, dungeons are boring mindless grinds.

We need more open world content. Duty finder content should be easy. I don't want more instanced content that 95% of the community can't complete.

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All the open world content they've implemented has been either a mindless grind (FATEs, Hunts), or is basically ignored by the playerbase at large (Beastman dailies, sightseeing log). In my opinion they seem incapable of developing worthwhile content that exists outside of the instance "bubble"

We probably won't see any open world stuff till the first expansion.

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Originally Posted by ChriZirhC

those bees will be forever missed.. xD

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The tanks constantly fishing for 2/3 progress in old AK wont be XD.

Pharos Sirius wasn't hard, the stats of the gears people had at this time and the stats of the monster was making it hard. when you make a content that become harder because you are overgear, but refuse to put an ilevel sync... you can't hope people to stick to it... without forget the reward was litterally craps! most people was in i70-90 already when it did come and was rewarding with i60. we can complain that people look for shinies, but it's human nature and can't be avoided.

i think they care too much for the new player and make decision that are weird and create this sort of situation... if they don't want to have trouble of overgear... put an ilevel sync.... they have it already! everything will be solved and they will be able to make content with a challenge more balanced than what we have right now.

Even if dungeons are harder people will not do them for the trill of harder content. If there isn't a reward attached to it people won't do it. Not sure what type of reward the dungeon can drop, but something that will appeal to everyone.

i will be blunt, if it was me i will have make the expert dungeon on par with Raid difficulty (not the dance type tough)
Yoshida and it team care too much for the player and are scared to be a bit rough with them, leading them to a situation where the skill in dungeon is useless (since gear destroy the difficulty)

i think that they need to offer multiple progression, i means by this different place where you can get different hard challenge. like have dungeon at 4 that will be challenging and offer reward depending of it. instead to have only the raid as end game, to have different endgame, variety can offer a lot of freedom for the player.

Yes, there should be harder dungeons in the game, but if it's not just ilvl increase, then it has to be done the right way... It shouldn't require you to be in a static to beat the damn thing, it should be challenging, but you should be able to PUG if the players are somewhat good. You might die a lot, but it shouldn't be like a "dance contest" (Coil)... Lets leave that to Raids.

The biggest focus should be on the trash mobs IMO, specifically to stop people calling them "trash" mobs... It shouldn't be too hard coming up with something that is actually fun, engaging and challenging.

As for the incentive to do them, while keeping them optional... Well, there are many ways you can do that really. It could some token to "upgrade" your gear somewhat, but just by 5 ilvl's, which is good enough for actually wanting to do it (me at least), but small enough of an upgrade that it would still work as an optional path.

As for ilvl sync like some have suggested... well, first off it would only fix the ilvl problem, not difficulty in the content itself. Second, who wants to do content and never feel the improvement you get from gearing up? The content shouldn't become a steamroll, but you should still see the difference. With more skill based content, ilvl might not make it much easier either, so it works out in that regard too.

I still think the normal level 50 dungeons that gets added, should have a higher ilvl requirement to start off, then after that, they can think about something like extreme mode dungeons.

Also, how could people think Pharos was hard? That's just beyond me...

I'd be down for this. There needs to be a broader range of optional content, and there especially needs to be a bigger variety of challenging content. There's basically no gradation from faceroll to Coil/Extremes (and some of the Extremes are pretty faceroll).

And yeah, plenty of people won't run them much without some kind of reward. So give 'em some run-X-times achievements, some exclusive vanity gear, maybe some kind of unique currency with rewards behind it.

Don't make them just another way to grind Tomes of the Moment. It'll either be efficient, and tons of people who don't actually enjoy them will run them because they feel like they "have" to, or it'll be inefficient, and people who would otherwise run them won't, because tomes are hard to ignore and time is limited.

people asking for "harder" 4 man content

yet there are still people that:
-make the whole party wipe at Hullbreaker Isle because they didn't move with the tornado (AH, DAT DPS LOSS)
-make the whole party wipe at Tam Tara HM because:
1. "look, so many adds at first boss, LET'S AOE EVERYTHING"
2. "uh, final boss, let's forget about adds and zerg it!"
- die at the second boss at Stone Vigil HM because "AH, A TRIGGER, LET'S PULL IT EVERYTIME"

I say if you want the restricted ilv and a savage mode that gives the exact same rewards or a pretty new title that I have disabled from me seeing anyways..go for it. Or in my case it can give you a new item..I wouldn't care one bit, others would so ..prepare for that.


No point in just creating more challenging versions of dungeons the new ones are in the right direction, they're trying to avoid the whole "pull huge amounts of crap and lets all die!" thing.

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Originally Posted by Defteros

people asking for "harder" 4 man content

yet there are still people that:
-make the whole party wipe at Hullbreaker Isle because they didn't move with the tornado (AH, DAT DPS LOSS)
-make the whole party wipe at Tam Tara HM because:
1. "look, so many adds at first boss, LET'S AOE EVERYTHING"
2. "uh, final boss, let's forget about adds and zerg it!"
- die at the second boss at Stone Vigil HM because "AH, A TRIGGER, LET'S PULL IT EVERYTIME"

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So, because there are bad players in the game, the players that can handle it, doesn't get anything fun? Also, those things rarely happen in the groups I've played with... Maybe I'm lucky, but it's not as common as you make it seem.

Right now, there is content for the really casual players, and there is content for the hardcore players, but the people that want a challenge, but not a static-required "dance contest"(Coil), there is basically nothing... You just grind grind grind, and then finally get some challenge when Coil gets PUG:able, and even then, it's all rage and no fun at all.

It's not just casual and hardcore players in the game you know...

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I say if you want the restricted ilv and a savage mode that gives the exact same rewards or a pretty new title that I have disabled from me seeing anyways..go for it. Or in my case it can give you a new item..I wouldn't care one bit, others would so ..prepare for that.


No point in just creating more challenging versions of dungeons the new ones are in the right direction, they're trying to avoid the whole "pull huge amounts of crap and lets all die!" thing.

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How is the new dungeons harder in any way? Just cause you can't make huge pulls, doesn't mean it's harder... Technically it makes it harder, but you just have to do smaller pulls to make it the same old steamroll...

some way to make dungeon more challenging, without rely on dance or instant death technique, more important that can make Trash different ^^.

so far the main trouble of dungeon it's the fact... that it's static! whatever the group you have or how you will do it, the number of monster, the skill used by the boss will remain the same.
the best idea it's to use some idea like the procedural generation of the content into the dungeon. by example the dungeon have a pool of trash that can pop, when you enter the dungeon, it will generate different group at different position and different patrol.
it can be even adapted to the boss, let's say the boss have a certain pool of skill he can use, for the example let's say he do have a pool of 7 skill, but for the fight he can only use 4, 3 will remain the same, the last one will be pick up from the pool randomly at the generation of the dungeon.

other point, bring back the use of the control, make the monster use tactics too, like some monster that will focus on interrupt the person casting a spell the closer of him. you have tons of posibility and please don't tell me that new player will have a hard time. the new player it's new until he get enough experience for be a player... but if we don't give them challenge enough for get this experience he will stay a new player with a lack of experience and skill needed for harder content.

i think that they most focus the period 1-50 to teach and give a lot of experience to the new player... but from 50 this new player must be seen like a player and stop to hold him hand!

ps: with training everybody can become a good player, the tricks it's to offer content good enough for train this player...create an easy content because people lack of skill it's a bullshit (sorry for the language). even the player of the best guild around was new player even pretty bad player at the start, they did become better because they have train and get enough experience for become good.

anyone saying that a bad player stay a bad player it's simply trying to forget that it was a bad player too.

pss: don't mix up, lazy player that don't want to become better and simply want instant gratification.... and new player that are by definition bad player since they lack knowledge, skill and experience for be called a good player. the first one, must be ignored by the dev... mmorpg it's not a place for the carebear! we can't make content for people that don't want to progress.

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Originally Posted by Parz3val

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I can dig what you're saying. Personally, I'd love a dungeon where the best strategy for me as a paladin isn't "Just stand there and spam flash while the black mage AOE's things to death." When I started the game there was this learning curve to tanking that required a lot of trial and error and changed depending on the dungeon and what adds were pulled.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Also, how could people think Pharos was hard? That's just beyond me...

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Pharos was 'hard' because it required people to not zerg rush and ignore the mechanics. Most of the fails on first boss I've seen back then is due to the party making light of the adds (which was indeed weak) and zerg rushing the boss, making the adds spawn faster and then expecting the tank to gather them up to aoe them, which is a big mistake at that time, considering the adds applies an aoe debuff that stacks which then explodes on the debuffed. Having 1 tank and 2 dps around the boss plus 3 adds surrounding them would make everybody explode more than once in short succession which would not allow even the tank to survive. If the tank does not pick up the adds and the dps also chooses to ignore the adds, the healer will likely die and the fight will also be over.

The above can be fixed with a simple discussion with the party but unfortunately that's not how things work in ARR. More often than not, people keep quiet and ignores instructions and sometimes even have the 'you can't tell me what to do! you're not better than me!' attitude. Sometimes you really do feel like you're better off taking the penalty than trying to finish the dungeon with certain people. Apparently most people back then would rather not take those chances at all and just leave before they start.

I feel like it has to do with the 'play nice' policy that the game has and the people who chooses to abuse that policy and use that as a shield if others want to criticize/advise them. Personally I have been in roulettes where I tried giving instructions to people who doesnt seem to know what to do but then get attacked for 'harassing' by that very person or their friend in the roulette, despite the rest of the group thinking otherwise. It's crazy.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Pharos was 'hard' because it required people to not zerg rush and ignore the mechanics. Most of the fails on first boss I've seen back then is due to the party making light of the adds (which was indeed weak) and zerg rushing the boss, making the adds spawn faster and then expecting the tank to gather them up to aoe them, which is a big mistake at that time, considering the adds applies an aoe debuff that stacks which then explodes on the debuffed. Having 1 tank and 2 dps around the boss plus 3 adds surrounding them would make everybody explode more than once in short succession which would not allow even the tank to survive. If the tank does not pick up the adds and the dps also chooses to ignore the adds, the healer will likely die and the fight will also be over.

The above can be fixed with a simple discussion with the party but unfortunately that's not how things work in ARR. More often than not, people keep quiet and ignores instructions and sometimes even have the 'you can't tell me what to do! you're not better than me!' attitude. Sometimes you really do feel like you're better off taking the penalty than trying to finish the dungeon with certain people. Apparently most people back then would rather not take those chances at all and just leave before they start.

I feel like it has to do with the 'play nice' policy that the game has and the people who chooses to abuse that policy and use that as a shield if others want to criticize/advise them. Personally I have been in roulettes where I tried giving instructions to people who doesnt seem to know what to do but then get attacked for 'harassing' by that very person or their friend in the roulette, despite the rest of the group thinking otherwise. It's crazy.

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Yeah, that's true, but things like that shouldn't stop them from making harder dungeons... At least optional harder dungeons. Those stupid players can't beat any other harder content either, unless they improve and listen to other players... So, if they want to beat the content, they can't just be carried by the rest of the players. They actually have to listen to the other players, and if they don't, they will be kicked. I know this will cause problems, but I rather have the good content and have to deal with bad players, than just steamrolling easy dungeons with the same kind of people.

I would appreciate something more challening in dungeons. I hope that they will make some 4 man EM dungeon one day. :))
Well, these nerf shouts happening all the time kinda ruin this dream.

I'm a heroic (mythic) raider. That's how I fell in love with WoW. But they can't sustain the game alone.

There's a widespread misunderstanding that most people even want to be "brought up." Everyone has the tools and capability to do anything. How many do it?

We thought in Cata that we could entice players to rise to the occasion to do harder content. But, you know, some players just said that's not why they play the game. More power to them.

What you're asking for will lose subscribers and possibly kill the game. Wow tried the same thing going into cata with harder 5 mans and we all know what happened there. There's content for casuals and hardcores and in SE's design the 4 mans are the casual group play content and coil ex's are the hardcore group play content.

This thread is the 5% of FF14 players asking for content that will take from the 95% (that don't even come to the forums remember) that pay their subs so the 5% can even have a raid.

The current dungeons aren't even that easy, the thing is people are too overgeared for them, that's why the only solution here is ilvl sync.

[sidestory] A few months ago I did Haukke HM with a party where the average level wasn't higher than i55 (only my healer was i90), we wiped so many times to the last boss just because we couldn't meet the DPS checks when the adds spawned, fast forward two months later the same party did the same dungeon from HL roulette, we hit an enrage because we DPSed the main boss way too fast, our WHM had to sit there and not dps to avoid wiping again. [/sidestory]

Doing hullbreaker or tam-tara hm with a full i80 party is really far from a faceroll.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

we hit an enrage because we DPSed the main boss way too fast

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Wait, the boss has a second enrage? I thought she only enraged after 6 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

I'm a heroic (mythic) raider. That's how I fell in love with WoW. But they can't sustain the game alone.

There's a widespread misunderstanding that most people even want to be "brought up." Everyone has the tools and capability to do anything. How many do it?

We thought in Cata that we could entice players to rise to the occasion to do harder content. But, you know, some players just said that's not why they play the game. More power to them.

What you're asking for will lose subscribers and possibly kill the game. Wow tried the same thing going into cata with harder 5 mans and we all know what happened there. There's content for casuals and hardcores and in SE's design the 4 mans are the casual group play content and coil ex's are the hardcore group play content.

This thread is the 5% of FF14 players asking for content that will take from the 95% (that don't even come to the forums remember) that pay their subs so the 5% can even have a raid.

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That's one of the problems I've said before... You say "There's content for casuals and hardcores and in SE's design the 4 mans are the casual group play content and coil ex's are the hardcore group play content.". That should be fixed, cause the majority of players fall somewhere in-between, at least in my experience... Dungeons is too casual, and Coil requires you to be in a Static with voice communication etc, if you want it to be relevant. You can wait for Coil to be PUG:able, but that's just frustrating most of the time, and a lot of rage... I do it, but I would much rather play something that is hard, but is doable and fun with random people... Or just people that learn quickly, but don't have time/want to learn the fights in Coil. Dungeons doesn't have the annoying lock-out either.

An (optional) ilv sync would solve this. The dungeons are easy 99% of the time due to overgearing.

AK/WP/Castrum/Pray = 60 max
Copper/Haukke/Pharos = 70 max
Halitali/Bray/City = 80 max
Hullbreaker/SV/Tam-Tara = 90 max

But, make it optional and who would do it?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Wait, the boss has a second enrage? I thought she only enraged after 6 minutes.

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It wasn't an enrage per se, we dpsed the boss way too fast and she didn't have the time to eat all adds, for some reason the system took it as if we didn't kill one of the adds and blood rain dealt the maximum damage. This is what happens when they have hard-scripted fights triggered by hp%.

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

This thread is the 5% of FF14 players asking for content that will take from the 95% (that don't even come to the forums remember) that pay their subs so the 5% can even have a raid.

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Uhm, no, its for the 35% to 45% of the player base know as the "Mid-core."

"Mid-core" is the section of the player base between the 5% to 10% of the player base known as the "Hardcore" and the remaining 50% to 60% known as "Casuals."

Like I mentioned before, statistical toughness is just one part of difficulty.

iLvl Sync alone just means we can't pull all the way up to the boss, that we have to slow down. It doesn't necessarily create "challenge".

It can however make a challenge more "challenging", so it works well for bosses (stress-test, have to endure mechanics longer or have more trouble surviving them, can't simply burn & ignore certain mechanics, etc.).

For trash which are mechanically simple or one-dimensional, it does nothing but cause people to pace themselves differently.

Mechanical additions are a must as well.

My simple example I think is a good one: 3 copies of the SV HM final boss all from the start, give them a new ability, & ilvl synced. Maybe empower the live one(s) when one dies. This might be too intense now, but you get the idea.

Or Brayflox HM first boss & final boss fought together mmm.

Extreme mode dungeons would be awesome. I would also like to see more open world stuff such as extreme mode treasure hunts or leves. If we ended up with a open world dungeon maps like ffxi's sky or dynamis I'm not sure I would be able to stop playing.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Uhm, no, its for the 35% to 45% of the player base know as the "Mid-core."

"Mid-core" is the section of the player base between the 5% to 10% of the player base known as the "Hardcore" and the remaining 50% to 60% known as "Casuals."

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Finally someone who understands that a big portion of the player base doesn't really fit into either the casual players or the hardcore players... But a lot of people here doesn't understand that, and more importantly, SE doesn't understand it. They make extremely easy content for casuals, and then make more hard content for hardcore players, then they think they have covered all their bases...

SE better start acknowledge us soon, cause that's a big chunk of their community that is starting to get bored...

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Finally someone who understands that a big portion of the player base doesn't really fit into either the casual players or the hardcore players... But a lot of people here doesn't understand that, and more importantly, SE doesn't understand it. They make extremely easy content for casuals, and then make more hard content for hardcore players, then they think they have covered all their bases...

SE better start acknowledge us soon, cause that's a big chunk of their community that is starting to get bored...

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Extreme and Second Coil actually fit the description about what that "mid-core" group can do.

I'd like this as it would be easier to recruit for. Wouldn't even need to up the rewards, the challenge itself would be reason enough to take us back into these dungeons once we are capped and bored for the week.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

I'd like this as it would be easier to recruit for. Wouldn't even need to up the rewards, the challenge itself would be reason enough to take us back into these dungeons once we are capped and bored for the week.

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But how many are willing to do it?

I didn't say ilvl sync created challenge, what I meant is the challenge is already there, but people either skip or ignore it, it wouldn't happen with ilvl sync.

With the HP of an i80 caster dps they can barely take 1 hit from the last boss of SV HM, 2 hits meaning death, that alone would force people to pay attention and dodge, same with the debuff applied by the second boss of hullbreaker. For Amdapor the fight turns a bit harder when DPS are i55 and they have to break the healer out of the prison ASAP. And so goes the list.

Fair enough Alukah :) it definitely helps.

I just think a little more beyond that would be welcome.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Extreme and Second Coil actually fit the description about what that "mid-core" group can do.

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The EX Primals and First Coil are devalued Hardcore content. Not really Mid-Core, but doable because of extreme overgearing and Echo bonuses. Only about 15% of the playerbase can clear T5 making Second Coil far from Mid-Core content.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

For Amdapor the fight turns a bit harder when DPS are i55 and they have to break the healer out of the prison ASAP. And so goes the list.

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Funny thing you can actual prevent yourself from getting eaten by the Gourmand in that fight, but not many know how to do this: stand in the fuzzy AoE area once you get marked. I suspect it is how people were supposed to learn/practice tactics for T6.

my dream is that some day dungeon difficulty adjusts based on the parties overall iLevel on entry, that way if you are ilvl 55 or ilvl 110, the dungeon will always be challenging

I like dungeons being easy - why does everything have to be hardcore? Want hardcore go raid or titan EX in DF...

T5 will stay a wall even with echo at 50%, only because the fight is filled with tons of OS skill.... the dive, twister, dread, the wall....
this fight was clearly made for be a challenge for good group, however in pug, well... it's another story. the worst it's this fight is not that hard, it's only if one of the 7 other person mess up... it can make the fight a pain.

i really think they need to less rely on dance, enrage, os mechanic for make new challenge.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

I like dungeons being easy - why does everything have to be hardcore? Want hardcore go raid or titan EX in DF...

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you have a difference between easy and being handled on a silver plate... if you have get your i100 gear the last expert a simply a big joke, since they are tuned for i80 geared people. (more i70 actually)
othr point, we talk of more challenging, that don't means more unforgivable. that a big misconception that have grow in the last decade, mostly thanks to WoW, most of the fight are hard, because they have mechanic that will kill you if you don't respect it.

the fight at the end of Ston's Vigil HM is a good way, even if you make an error you will not be wiped, you can still make up. i'm sure they can offer new challenge that don't rely on stuf that will force vocal and static... personal skill and teamplay skill don't need vocal for be high level.... actually vocal is not really needed... it's simply the modern mmorpg have make it needed when it's not always needed.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

I like dungeons being easy - why does everything have to be hardcore? Want hardcore go raid or titan EX in DF...

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Optional...

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

I like dungeons being easy - why does everything have to be hardcore? Want hardcore go raid or titan EX in DF...

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We don't want stuff that is Hardcore, we want stuff that is between the current "casual" dungeons and "hardcore" raids in difficulty.