4 man dungeons: Are they fun?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

People hated the difficulty of Pharos. Granted the rewards were crap compared to how hard it was.

Most of the people saying they are easy would probably not have such a good time if they weren't seriously overgeared. if there was an iLv Cap a lot of these dungeons can be pretty serious.

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The problem with Pharos wasn't that it was difficult but rather that it was so much MORE difficult than the other two new dungeons that offered the same rewards.

If we got a full set of equally hard dungeons people would do them. The devs messed up with Pharos because everyone just ran Haukke HM instead because it was faster...

Add different ways to do the 4-man dungeons

Dungeons how they are now.

Have an NM version where a A rank NM can pop.

And have an iLVL Sync.

The normal way gives the same tomes as now, the NM version gives less tomes but you get allied notes, and have the iLVL Sync give bonus tomes for the challenge.

Square is never going to add dungeons where elite marks can spawn. All you would do is shove all the zerg hunting rushers to specific dungeons for easy seals, aka Brayflox Hard 2.0

They most certanly are. I love Hullbreaker Isle and Tam Tara HM. Can't wait to see what 2.4 has in store for us.

Probably not, just throwing out ideas. but even if they added a iLVL sync option for more tomes it would at least add a bit more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Hell, we need more bosses like it so that tanks and healers can mix it up in the fight rather than doing the same dances like a 9-5 job. Least then people won't whine about the healer "sitting on their MP"

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Best thing they could do to help with this is get rid of DD as a role, bring back controller in its place, equalize out the DPS as best as possible between all jobs, and then change up the encounters to shift which role has more responsibility at any given point in the dungeon. Boom, problem mostly solved.

Frankly this whole damage dealing as a role never made a lick of sense (and caused way more problems with role distribution than its worth) since there is no such thing as a character that doesn't "do damage" in an RPG combat system. It's like saying, here is the guy who protects you all with his shield while culling his enemies with his sword, here is the guy who can heal you in a pinch, and here is the guy who kills stuff. Uh, wait a sec. What happened to the part about me "slicing up enemies with my sword?" Oh you still do that, just not as good as the guy that punches things. Wait a second! Something isn't right here... X.x

After way too much time spent hunting. It's nice to get back to the dungeons. Even when you overgear them, the dungeons are still more challenging than any of the hunts (unless you're trying to 4 man an S rank for some bizarre reason). Only exception is fighting Mahisha inside that tiny room near the left of the caves. Of course, it's not that that's *fun* difficulty, that's just a horrible design decision.

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Personally, I never had any issues in pugs with this boss, even when the dungeon was first launched. Maybe it's a data center thing.

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I dunno, but I've had many runs where Giruveganaus was a run-ender, kinda like the first boss of Cutter's Cry, any of the bosses in Copperbell HM (but primarily the first one, more so when the dungeon was newer), the first and last bosses of Pharos (more so when the dungeon was newer)...

Needless to say, it's always just that much more frustrating when the run-ending encounter happens to be the last one in the dungeon.

I probably spend more time in dungeons than anything else. I only play DPS, so I have long queue times more days.

I queue roulette or a selection of dungeons I want to run, and then do my other stuff (tribe quests, farming, crafting, etc). I probably run 4 to 5 dungeons in a 3 hour play session. More if I'm lucky.

I really like them. I imagine, if you only play in your static, they're dull because you do things the same way every run. But in DF, it's a different experience each time.

My two complaints are that I definitely outgear every HM dungeon now, and there isn't enough variety in Expert. Getting Alexandrite from only those 3 dungeons is a drag. I wish I could get it from any level 50 dungeons.

I'm looking forward to gold saucer, but I'm hoping for a handful of fun new dungeons in the next major patch, too.

I had a lot of fun with pre-nerf Pharos Sirius. Would definitely like to see challenging 4-man content.

I remember how disappointed I was at how easy Lost City of Amdapor and Diabolos were after coming off of Pharos Sirius.

The small party dungeons are. . okay. They're not bad, per se, but they're really lacking in any sort of mechanics for the trash for the most part. And then they make you kill the trash anyway. :(

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I dunno, but I've had many runs where Giruveganaus was a run-ender.

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How can he be a run ender. You can dodge *everything* he throws at you. As a tank, I solo'd the 2nd one once when my party died just by staying on his flank.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

How can he be a run ender. You can dodge *everything* he throws at you. As a tank, I solo'd the 2nd one once when my party died just by staying on his flank.

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Probably because the boss doesn't use red ring tells as a typical mob does, so no one pays attention to which direction the boss faces.

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How can he be a run ender. You can dodge *everything* he throws at you. As a tank, I solo'd the 2nd one once when my party died just by staying on his flank.

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Doesn't work when I'm the last one standing and I don't have a form of ranged dps, because the 2nd one seems to start using instantaneous breaths (without having to use that self-buff move that normally indicates he's going to use a breath next) when the 1st one dies, which I can't avoid.

Also, if you're the last man standing as a tank, even if you're somehow able to still win, that kinda goes back to my original point about the fight being extremely tedious.

From what I heard, early beta had the guildhest NMs randomly spawn in certain dungeons. Blockman was a TamTara rare spawn.

Why was that removed?

Hullbreaker Isle is an example of how you do a fun dungeon. I love going through that place...but whenever I get Tam Tara HM I cringe and SV HM I want nothing more than to be at the fun final boss. I would also like it if they STOPPED moving dungeons from Expert to High Level. As much as I hate Ampador, I'd prefer running that place again over running SV HM for the 7th time in a row...simply because I'm tired of seeing 2 of the same 3 dungeons day in and day out for Expert roulette.

I imagine expert roulette will eventually include more than just "the most recent patch's 3 dungeons", there just aren't enough "tiers" of the dungeons out yet.

2.3's dungeons all have a significantly higher level requirement than the ones before it, so there's actually a decent possibility that 2.4's dungeons will get added to the expert roulette instead of supplanting the 2.3 ones.

The 4 mans aren't bad, but they are all pretty easy (unless you're gearing up for the first time). That said, I'd like to see some 4 mans designed for higher gear levels.

No they're not. They're a drag that I only do once a day for Alex. Easy, predictable and monotonous. That sounds like chores you do daily in real life.

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Originally Posted by ValVae

Honestly, I love the newest 4 mans that came with 2.3. If SE decides to keep putting that kind of effort towards 4 man dungeons (and please make them slightly more difficult) I don't see there really being a problem.

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I hated Stone Vigil (Hard) the other two were pretty good. Tam-Tara's story kind of carried the dungeon though to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Magis

From what I heard, early beta had the guildhest NMs randomly spawn in certain dungeons. Blockman was a TamTara rare spawn.

Why was that removed?

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Creates an uneven experience, which is something SE's avidly trying to avoid.

I have quite a bit of fun in 4man dungeons. It's a lot easier for me to find three other people than it is to look for seven other people every time I want to run a dungeon.

The rewards of the dungeons match the difficulty. Personally, I would like them to be a bit more difficult but I won't complain so as long as I can see that an effort for quality has been made. ^^

As far as the 2.3 dungeons go... I liked all three of the new dungeons, although I think SV HM needed just a couple of tweaks. Mainly, I expected to see a lot more NPC's in there since they were 'reclaiming' SV. They didn't necessarily have to help fight but they could have run in behind the party and stood guard or something.
Also as a tank I found the final boss somewhat frustrating. Once I accepted that you can't really tank the final boss it became far less frustrating. =-=;;

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Creates an uneven experience, which is something SE's avidly trying to avoid.

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Which isn't wise IMO. A content which you run over and over again needs to have uneven experience everytime you run it eitherwise it becomes monotonous. Which leads to boredom.

This isn't unique to FFXIV though. Almost every mmo falls in this trap. Dungeon trash on every mmo is considered as boring time waster.

Take L4D. The same map and the same enemies but you know that no matter how many times you'll run that map it is always going to be different and interesting. That's because of the unpredictability of enemy positions. You don't know when a horde will come, if there is going to be a zombie behind that door, when a smoker may grab you. Same map, same enemies but every run is still exciting. That's what I want to see on a dungeon. To be caught off guard and adapt to the situation.

I enjoy them when a party actually chit chat's with each other. Most times it's only a "hello" or "hey" and then no one talks until the end. Having friendly banter takes away from the monotony of having to grind low level dungeons again.

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Originally Posted by Edli

Which isn't wise IMO. A content which you run over and over again needs to have uneven experience everytime you run it eitherwise it becomes monotonous. Which leads to boredom.

This isn't unique to FFXIV though. Almost every mmo falls in this trap. Dungeon trash on every mmo is considered as boring time waster.

Take L4D. The same map and the same enemies but you know that no matter how many times you'll run that map it is always going to be different and interesting. That's because of the unpredictability of enemy positions. You don't know when a horde will come, if there is going to be a zombie behind that door, when a smoker may grab you. Same map, same enemies but every run is still exciting. That's what I want to see on a dungeon. To be caught off guard and adapt to the situation.

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And I fully agree. This game is kinda weak in spontaneity and variety and I would totally dig something to break up repetition in dungeons.
But they probably did it to avoid people complaining about "unfairness" in their most prominent feature.

Pre-Nerf Pharnos Sirus

O man those memories....

I've had fun but they are not fun based on difficulty or mechanics, same is said of CT/ST. They are kind like the point and click smash everything get loot gameplay (think Diablo, MMO style). Which is fun in its own way for what it is. Blow things up look at the pretty scenery, get your rewards, rinse and repeat. It is a type of gameplay (enjoyed by some not by everyone) and it isn't meant to be interesting based on difficulty.

If you enjoy complex fights and mechanics that's where the coil and primal lines come into play. And those fights are very accessible to those who would like to do them.

I do feel like there's a missing spot for complex difficult 4 man content but I think the devs are just not focusing resources there since that option exists in the form of 8 man content. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see it but due to the overlap it probably isn't high on their priority list.

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Originally Posted by Magis

From what I heard, early beta had the guildhest NMs randomly spawn in certain dungeons. Blockman was a TamTara rare spawn.

Why was that removed?

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They weren't random. Stuff like this was cut out to make the dungeon easier and faster

5 mans have always been my favorite activity in games. I like the dungeons here as well, but I don't run them nearly as often as I did in WoW\Rift. Part of it is queue time - adding one more DPS to parties would help (why the decision on 4 man? Just so it's not like that "other" game?). Part of it is the community is mostly terrible and if you get that one jerk that you just have to kick because he's that abusive and he's a tank, you could be waiting a while. Part of it is the dungeons are either completely faceroll, or disproportionately difficult for less coordinated parties. It's always one of two extremes with SE, there is rarely a middle ground. The three new ones are on the faceroll end of the spectrum.


So instead I'm banging my head against grind content like level 2 FATES that are oh so challenging and will make me feel like I totally accomplished something great in the game when that elusive atma drops, content I absolutely hate and have little to no interest in because somehow, I feel it's less of a waste of my time than doing dungeons for soldiery.

If that doesn't say something about the general state of dungeons...

I, too, would like more engaging and interesting content. Someone mentioned coil and primals, but that isn't four man content. This discussion is about to four man content.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

If you enjoy complex fights and mechanics that's where the coil and primal lines come into play.

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I get your point but these dungeons don't have to be either uber challenging or braindead simple. There has to be a middle ground, especially for dungeons which are labelled expert. We have plenty of dungeons that are easy now, they're piling up. Lets have three for every patch that are a bit more interesting.

Plus primals and coil are mainly focused on boss fight. A dungeon is about going from start to finish. The only way to make them fun even by repplaying them over and over again is the element of surprise. Random placement for trash. You mentioned Diablo I mentioned L4D. Both games implement randomness to keep it interesting. Trash mobs that may overwhelm you, patrol or that you can sneak by. They can have much stronger CC. A pacify to tank that lasts 15 sec is going to make that trash fight a bit more interesting, silence on healer, sleep whatever.

Dungeons are too steam roll/hack n slash.

If I wanted a hack n slash experience, I wouldn't be playing an MMO.

Give us optional, more mechanical complex (perhaps ilvl synced too) "Savage Dungeons".

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Originally Posted by Edli

You mentioned Diablo I mentioned L4D. Both games implement randomness to keep it interesting. Trash mobs that may overwhelm you, patrol or that you can sneak by. They can have much stronger CC. A pacify to tank that lasts 15 sec is going to make that trash fight a bit more interesting, silence on healer, sleep whatever.

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That reminds me of leveling in FFXI. Party camps typically had some level of danger to them, especially pre-mpk patch. Unexpected things happened. Pulls were sometimes tricky. Certain mobs appeared at night or aggroed from far away when a player had low HP. You had to be aware of your surroundings.

Fun stuff.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

5 mans have always been my favorite activity in games. I like the dungeons here as well, but I don't run them nearly as often as I did in WoW\Rift. Part of it is queue time - adding one more DPS to parties would help (why the decision on 4 man? Just so it's not like that "other" game?).

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Final Fantasy is traditionally a party of 4. It has deviated from that in previous iterations but the original party was 4.

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Originally Posted by Edli

I get your point but these dungeons don't have to be either uber challenging or braindead simple. There has to be a middle ground, especially for dungeons which are labelled expert. We have plenty of dungeons that are easy now, they're piling up. Lets have three for every patch that are a bit more interesting.

Plus primals and coil are mainly focused on boss fight. A dungeon is about going from start to finish. The only way to make them fun even by repplaying them over and over again is the element of surprise. Random placement for trash. You mentioned Diablo I mentioned L4D. Both games implement randomness to keep it interesting. Trash mobs that may overwhelm you, patrol or that you can sneak by. They can have much stronger CC. A pacify to tank that lasts 15 sec is going to make that trash fight a bit more interesting, silence on healer, sleep whatever.

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I don't disagree at all and would like more in depth 4 man content. And I'm not saying they did hack and slash effectively as compared to other games that have perfected it but I do know people who enjoy those 4 man dungeons and the mindless ease that they are. Those players need a few each patch to keep up a change in scenery and I think that is the target audience for those dungeons. And to keep that audience they will continue to invest resources there.

I would personally like more challenge in smaller group content and cross my fingers that the devs will invest in that too... Someday... But I also don't think I'm the target audience for those 4 mans as they stand today.

I definitely miss trash with actual mechanics, like we have in Qarn. The faces have to be killed in certain spots, or the bees have to be burned fast. . .stuff like that. Lost City and TT HM feel like they're trying something similar with the invulnerable mobs, but I don't really count that. I don't consider a kill order to be mechanics.

I think there's an audience out there for a 4-man dungeon with trash complexity equal to or maybe above Qarn's, and boss difficulty like AV. . .

The traps at the start of hullbreaker is a good example of how easy and inconsequential everything is in dungeons. They immobilize you for 5 seconds and puts a fairly insignificant dot that does not really do that much. Instead, if they stunned and incapacitated you for the entirety of that trash pull and dealing 1.5k dmg per tick , perhaps players would be more wary of stepping into one and instead of "heck I'll just let me healer heal me up" and eat the 5 sec debuff. Some of the ideas are good but none punishing enough to make a group not be able to brute force and AOE down everything.

No. They offer no challenge.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I definitely miss trash with actual mechanics, like we have in Qarn. The faces have to be killed in certain spots, or the bees have to be burned fast. . .stuff like that. Lost City and TT HM feel like they're trying something similar with the invulnerable mobs, but I don't really count that. I don't consider a kill order to be mechanics.

I think there's an audience out there for a 4-man dungeon with trash complexity equal to or maybe above Qarn's, and boss difficulty like AV. . .

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There are bees in Hullbreaker, but they don't have the power to 1 shot a tank wearing i100 gear.

Honestly, low end dungeons are tough because they're level sync'd. The "problem" with high end dungeons is that you can waltz around in them with gear 40 ilvls over what it was designed for. If they started ilvl syncing the high end dungeons as strictly as they do with the low level dungeons, it wouldn't be as much of a cake walk.

They were fun enough first run through. Maybe even the following ten or twenty run throughs while grinding levels. Returning to them while working on Animus broke me. So dull.

Personally, I love 8 man content. 4 man is dull, exceedingly long and pretty damn pointless once you're overgeared/past that point in game. 24-man raids are easily some of the most fun boss fights, but are a total social trollfest.

8 mans provide great challenge, interesting mechanics, and in the case of 2BCOB, can only be done with either a group of friends, or people from your server, and you make more friends that way. More of this please.

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There are bees in Hullbreaker, but they don't have the power to 1 shot a tank wearing i100 gear.

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Final Sting I'm pretty sure deals something like 75-80% of the target's maximum HP, because it seems about as equally devastating to a tank as it is to anyone else (and I have eaten my fair share of Final Stings as a healer/DPS), and I have never seen a single Final Sting take down anyone that was at full health.

If that is the case, how well you can take a Final Sting isn't really based on how well geared up you are (although it would still have a factor in how well you could survive any other mobs that happen to still be attacking you)