Reading comprehension -10. Go back and carefully reread the opening post instead of mindlessly reiterating your own presuppositions. You are totally on the other side of the hemisphere right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviant1
The entire point is that there are a ton of gamers who neither fit into the category of casual or hardcore who are forced to play two extremes at end game that do not fit their needs. The point of normal modes isn't to hand out stuff like CT. Its to provide the same challenges to a group of people as the current raids, only slightly tuned down so they can be done in a more reasonable time frame.
And before you respond to this post, go back and read. Don't just read this and respond. Read the opening post first.
Can we just have the Wrath of the Lich King Raiding Scheme?
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08-20-2014, 07:26 AMFendred
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08-20-2014, 07:33 AMsilentwindfr
no, i'm talking of the whole idea to split the content in two iteration, meaning 2 times more work.
in vanillia often it did take time for beat a content, i still remember the few month for pass razorgore, but it's part of learning, indeed with a game with DF you can't do this. and that the whole trouble of the actual raid, outside the DDR-style. Why content like ZG or Zul Aman was hard but still doable without spend tons of days at train for know every pattern possible of a fight, Karazhan was the same, indeed the fight was hard, but if the player was becoming better it was possible to pass this content without have a static.
that the whole trouble of the modern raiding, people want to do everything in static and the Dev do raiding with this in mind. but they do forget to train player, the dungeon that normally are used for train player are too easy, leading to player to not have the training enough nor the capacity for really face hard content. then, what they have as solution? make DDR content, because it's easy, it don't ask a lot of skill as player for beat this sort of content, only memorize a pattern and execute it.
the real solution it's to stop to put Raiding as the only challenging content! we need more difficult content at 4 for train, we need to have dungeon that will be as hard as raid to be beaten, more important we need content outside raid/dungeon that will recquire the gears from this place. i did hope a lot that Hunt will be a really good feature for this, sadly SE don't want to frustrate player that think that raid it's everything into a mmorpg. the sand/oil was create for this reason too, for give a carrot that raider will have for complet this.
you talk of Wrath of lich king, but admit it, often we did the hard content only for the challenge or for stupid reason like the horse on Nerthas. but here, people need to have the best stuff from raid or they are crying. it's why i think it's not a good idea to split the raid in 2 iteration, but to balance it and offer content outside raid that will train player by being harder and challenging. i prefer they begin to stop to treated player like kids and treat us like player.
ps: for make it short, i think that the trouble lie in the player and the way the Dev try to accomodate the game for them. i will never say it enough, base a game on the hardcore it's a bad idea, you want an example? Aq40 and Naxx 60 from WoW, they was made with hardcore in mind, leading in some extreme situation like the 1000po farm for one night of raid for aq40 or the fact that only 2-6% of the whole community did try naxx 60. leading them to reuse the whole raid at lich king.
i think they don't need to make extremely hard content, but content that will stay challenging not matter how many time you did beat it, because actually, when a static did beat a content in FF14, 90% of the time they will beat it the other time after. -
08-20-2014, 07:36 AMTheRogueXLOL, learn to watch the health bar. People use the notification addons because they're lazy. Hell, back when I first started playing MMOs, there was no such thing as a cast bar. You had to actually watch the boss itself to know when certain things were going to happen. Lazy, lazy people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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08-20-2014, 07:40 AMsilentwindfrwhen i did start play, the raid was not as important as it's treated now, the mmorpg was offering different experience for different type of player, the trouble it's really the fact that everybody think that the raid is the only content that can offer challenge. leading to the genre getting less and less deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
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08-20-2014, 07:47 AMFendredActually, it freed us up to enjoy the battlefield more and watch the cool fireworks instead of focusing almost entirely on one single place on the screen. You might find it incredibly stimulating, but since every raid group in existence used deadly boss mods back in the day I think you are only speaking for yourself and perhaps a staunch few who actually enjoy doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
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08-20-2014, 08:02 AMDeviant1My reading comprehension is pretty good actually and it allows me to read between the lines. They just introduced the 'savage' mode of coil, that would make the current second turn 'normal' and the 'savage' mode the 'hard mode'. What you want is an 'Easy' mode. That is a mode that is lower in difficulty then what was originally released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
It takes about an hour or two to learn the entire fight, and once learned you should be able to farm the fight regularily. It does take longer to learn the job or jobs you go to this on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
Also when the next stage of coil is released, you will get a reduced difficulty thanks to: Echo, no lockouts, & DF access. The echo will make up for the under geared/skilled a bit. The removal of lockouts will let people who know the fight can help others (or at least dilute the 'you & 7 gimp syndrome') and DF will let you practice on other jobs a bit easier. -
08-20-2014, 08:12 AMWhiteprincess
I would love this as well. Coming from wow i'm used to getting to play end game content with a normal ver. then a hard version. It allowed my guild to be able to enjoy the content, at a nice pace... from normal to hard modes. Sure hardcore would say why.... but i would say why upgrade when everything is a downgrade in a few months... why? because we play the game for fun.... at least i do. Lets face it though all of CoB is easy... its the other players and instant death mechanics that make it hard atm lol.
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08-20-2014, 08:23 AMValkyrieL
What some of you need to realize is that to do end-game you NEED a static. I came to this realization while playing TERA who's boss (Shandra Manaya) mechanics revolve around 1shot/party wipes. With a static you will initially wipe but you will learn/progress till everything just becomes an impulse/faceroll. I know that getting a static can be difficult but you need to put alot of effort into finding one. If end game could be done with DF and PF(includes new/unskill players everytime you set one up) than a static party would absolutely faceroll the content and probably quit as the difficulty to keep them is not there.
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08-20-2014, 08:25 AMFendredNo, you really aren't getting it. If it helps, I made several posts responding to other people that might explain things a little better. I think there is one on page 2 that might help clarify things a bit. But no, if you are thinking of what is currently in the game as equivalent to "normal mode" and the new savage mode being "heroic mode," you did not comprehend my post in the slightest. You are not "reading between the lines." You are just rehearsing the same presuppositions that you started with, and as a result your points hold no merit to the conversation here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviant1
Edit: And on the whole "all the fights can be learned in an hour or two" comment. Right, that's why some teams are taking multiple weeks of their raid schedule before they get through turn 6. Also, the people in question are ready and willing to do the raid content when it is introduced. Medium core players ARE NOT casual gamers, and the things Yoshida is putting into the game for casuals does not apply to their particular group. -
08-20-2014, 08:58 AMZilethLOL Sorry but WoW is a casual base game that tosses some hardcore stuff here and there.... wonder why these "hardcore" gamers burn through WoW's stuff in a few daysQuote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
Also WoW subs is counted world wide and reason it was so successful is due to it capitalizing on casuals then the "hardcore" only crowed. Yes it had good mechanics and what not but stop fooling yourself and acting like this is the only reason WoW did so well. Remember WoW would flopped and gone F2P if it just released and was only V-WoW.......... Hell most likey if WoW released now with the Linch King updated it most likely would of flopped -
08-20-2014, 09:08 AMFendredDepends on what time period, expansion, or raid you are talking about. It's a game with a long and rich history that over the course of its life appealed to many audiences. Wrath of the Lich King's raiding was a wonderful balance of different difficulties and colorful encounters. If you are referring to groups like blue garter, the only content in existence that would be an effective challenge would be something like Absolute Virtue from FFXI. People literally passed out on the floor from trying to do that fight for hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileth
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08-20-2014, 09:23 AMfarnfarn64
So basically people want a 30 percent buff so they can take on the Lich King?
I loved Wrath of the Lich King, I still think that the mechanics and fights in second coil is not at the level of heroic raids. I think it is closer to the normal modes. I never was able to beat Lich King on normal, but I cleared turn 9. I am not really that good at these games, but if I can clear it it means its not really as hard as people make it out to be. -
08-20-2014, 09:40 AMZaero
So...make game more like WoW, which will end up with people complaining that this game turned into WoW.
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08-20-2014, 10:05 AMKrrNnot really? We have that, it's called Echo.Quote:
Originally Posted by farnfarn64
Basically, here's the thing. The current endgame has two styles of encounter - "Nothing-you-do-matters-so-just-play-halfassed" Tower, and extreme/coil encounters where the entire party instantly dies to one person making a misstep in the DDR pattern. Even not-so-fantastic statics can eventually try together at a fight to slowly batter this into everyone's muscle memory, but it means that pug groups experience a pretty strict binary - people who can do the entire fight and people who can't. This is why party finders chant "have clear" so much - it's a waste of time to risk having to teach a player a fight they'll need weeks more of attempts to have nailed.
Something that fits a middle ground between "you don't even need to try" and "just one mistake = everyone dies" is missing. The latter very much predicates statics, which leaves people who want to be able to make a serious effort without anything to do if their schedule can't accomodate or personal progression isn't keeping up with the herd. Hence 'midcore content'. Not as a measure of skill, but as a measure of personal ability to throw time and energy into a video game. It also means it's easy to mount frustration on other players when they fail because the penalty for even slight failure is so extreme for such a group - which is what leads to the impatience and frustration in the modern Party Finder.
(IME, trying to pug clears in the current endgame is literally a waste of time. You pretty much only use PF to fail and then try to pick up the people who weren't failing and hope they want to come back later. This is a PRETTY LONG process, though.) -
08-20-2014, 10:31 AMMalzian
Hmmm... Another forum with another "Make <this MMO> the same as <some other MMO I liked>" thread... The fact is that Yoshida wanted XIV to be systemically different from other MMOs. Yes, same basic concepts, but presented in a different way. In truth it's not even fair to compare MMOs of such differing design philosophies to one another and, really, if people wanted the system designs from another MMO... Well, they'd just go play that MMO. I liked gameplay in Tera a lot... I don't go asking for BAMs in this one (though we do get something similar in boss FATEs).
I agree that there are too many 'muscle memory' mechanics in current end game, and it has amazed me to see the level of threatening and profanity used in PF for people who aren't 100% on the fight so those seeking can make sure to get that shiny trinket they've been grinding so hard for. But maybe that speaks a bit more for the difficulty vs. drop rate vs. lockouts vs. content gating that goes on... Either way, "Make it like <some other MMO>" is never a way to solve an issue like this and you'll only succeed in making the game that much more generic, which is no way to advance the genre. -
08-20-2014, 11:16 AMVladislav
Totally agree with OP . I know tonn ppl's that hit "wall" in T5 & Extremes , so why not let ppl's get their fun . Different difficultes may even drop totally different "tier" of gear , but still i pretty much sure this system will 100% work this game . By just looking how many ppl's Paying gills to mercs , only for bit moment of winning/happy , this ppl's mostly not even "need" any specific drop from Ex & Coil (maybe only if as small "present")
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08-20-2014, 01:05 PMTheRogueXlol. Really? Every raid group? I guess we are talking about post-BC WoW players here, so it makes sense. It's like calling CoD players 'pro.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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08-20-2014, 01:08 PMVirtusoActually a Japanese party has already cleared Savage mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFNSUewb7CIQuote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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08-20-2014, 01:12 PMDano
I don't get it, isn't savage mode = hard mode? then that makes the SCOB normal mode.
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08-20-2014, 02:09 PMNoel_Clover
What I'm understanding from this is that OP feels that the difficulty of Coil is a little high and wants an easier mode. This easier mode will be renamed Normal Mode, while our current level of Coil will be Hard and Savage Extreme or... something. I would like to point out that the current mode is, indeed, Normal Mode. The thing I see from all this is really that you, dear OP, simply feel that the bar is a little too high for what you consider "Normal", which is, a matter of perception.
EG: I feel that playing Guilty Gear on anything other than Maniac is easy, my friend feels that playing anything other than Lunatic on Touhou is normal. While I feel that playing Touhou on anything other than Normal is pretty damn hard and he feels that playing Guilty Gear on anything other than Normal is nuts, it doesn't change our perception towards the individual games. This is because we've gotten to heights where our perceptions towards "Normal" and the bar is a little different from that of many others. Note, this is okay, because difficulty is really a matter of perception in this case.
I recently did t5 in a learning group with i90+i100 gear. We didn't clear it. I was nervous as hell before going through it mind you, but when I did I actually laughed. Oh god, the whole thing was so laughably easy. Sure, we wiped at Snakes, but people blew snakes up early and I didn't have enough heals thrown on me to survive four snakes. That and DPS were getting tired at that point I believe. Also, some silly mistakes from puggers, but it was otherwise all around... easy. Have I gone to t6? Nope. Do I think it will also be as laughably easy once I figure the whole thing out? Yes.
So what's wrong? Is the bar elevated too high for people to actually challenge?
Pfft. Hardly. I would say that the gaming level of the community is terribly low ((HoTs before pulls/spawns + over heals, tanks who don't use CDs or AoEs, DPS who don't use their buffs or disengage as required, players who would rather ignore game mechanics because it's so much easier to burn a boss you can't burn for example)) and the idea of lowering the bar is hilarious.
For the healer who points out that he can do things perfectly but mess up because of a pug, I'm sorry for your terrible experiences. That doesn't make a good reason for lowering the difficulty of Coil though. Players needing to "git gud" is never a good reason for content nerf.
I feel that the bar set for the content is just right. Players just need to step up to the challenge.
Before we go to the "WoW examples, WoW standards!" I would like to point out that WoW has been made easy over the last few years. I didn't really play WotLK, but from what I've been told from the Ye-Olde-Raiders-From-Yonder-Days it's laughably easy compared to the old days of raiding and the like, especially with add-ons. Also, I would like to point out that the use of add-ons and the like have, in my humble opinion, dulled the killing edge sense that gamers developed. Your idea of "stare at the HP/cast bar" is rather off. People who didn't have the wonderful little tool we now know as add-ons simply looked towards the cast/HP bar, took an overall look at their cooldowns, positions and made a quick decision in what would amount to less-than-one-whole-standard-GCD in this game. The closest thing to a add-on notification was that instinctual gut feeling telling you "Disengage soon".
And that's "Medium-Core". -
08-20-2014, 02:34 PMZumi
They already have the normal/heroic system of raids with the Normal coil and Savage coil. It is just that since the idea for making savage coil came up mid patch they didn't have better drops. Yoshi P already said if the format is popular they will in the future have specific savage mode items that drop. I am guessing in 2.4 there will be a normal coil and a savage mode right at the start with savage having slightly higher item levels then normal coil but being way harder, with possible recolor or the ability to dye the gear for savage drops.
Games like wow were made vastly easier by having user created addons like boss mods that make stuff louder and alert you to most every mechanic of and had timers for all boss abilities and when they will go off on fights since wow is very scripted much like arr. Tell you when an attack is coming out, warns you about having to move, dispel a debuff. For example if SE actually got around to releasing their addon API I am sure someone would make a similar boss mod. Your average player who isn't skilled enough to watch Twinitania's cast bar for Twister and also have her focus targeted when killing dread knights and always dies to Twister would do much better if there was so boss mod addon was making some obnoxious loud noise and yelling at you to RUN AWAY FROM TWISTER in huge letters they would be able to do that part.
I also remember when Blizzard invited the 2 best guilids to race eachother at blizzcon in a raid with no addons and they couldn't beat the last boss because they were so use to having to rely on addons to tell them about incoming attacks. -
08-20-2014, 03:24 PMDuelle
The reason WotLK's model worked was mostly due to how people were introduced to raiding. I mean, if you look at the entry level content (Naxx10/25, Sartharion, Archavon), most of the bosses were pretty straightforward while others did require a gameplan in order to clear. You could "faceroll" Patchwerk so long as you knew who your Hateful Strike tank was, whereas you needed a kill order for Grand Widow Faerlina, needed to know how to safely kite Anub'rekhan and Grobbulus, not to mention coordinate mind controls for Instructor Razuvious. I'll admit mods made this content "easier" than the devs probably intended, but DBM/bigwigs had nothing on raid coordinations as well as players knowing what to do to get the kill.
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08-20-2014, 03:50 PMKrrCome back to in two months when you're still watching puggers wipe to snakes and you're wondering if 1 million gil is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel_Clover
It doesn't matter what you or I as MMO Veterans or as people who've raided in the past feel. Many pugs in FFXIV are new to the art, and very rarely if ever clear this content for a number of reasons intrinsic to the game's design, and no other alternatives (that aren't cleared in less than a day and really just exist to 'gear you up' for these encounters) exist. These days, you pretty much need a static, some friends who've already done it to rub up on, or a seller to progress past these 'content walls'. Some of which are, honestly, actually harder than what lies beyond them mechanically, though they might require you to know your rotation a little better. And that content is considered outdated and irrelevant gear-wise. Is that good for long-term game life? -
08-20-2014, 08:08 PMNoel_Clover
I'm a little confused on your view right there Krr. From the first part of your post I see that you're pointing out that it's a player-skill matter, right before you immediately turn it on the game. I do hope that you'll tell me why you think that it's a problem with the game.
NOTE: This is totally an opinion and is not meant to be read in any way hostile.
I really, strongly hold that it's a player-skill problem. Saying that pugs are new to the art of gaming ((which may be true and is completely fine. I like helping newbies up the ladder.)) and so under-perform isn't exactly acceptable. I point this out because this game holds a really nice number of dungeons which gradually teach players to settle into clearing dungeons and the like. You learn to deal with positions, AoE, look out for stuff in the dungeon, manage resources and watch out for cues. These lessons are taught over and over and over again to the player. Heck, they teach it to the player so many times it's like playing the starting stage of Megaman over and over and over again. I'll say it again: Nothing in t5 is hard ((unless latency laughs in your face like the die gods as you roll a 1 in DnD)). The wall is something easily scaled if players simply knew their classes and how to do the fight, something completely related to skill and knowledge. Heck, I'd happily say that the wall isn't even really there anymore with people over gearing and having the Echo buff around since the only actual problem was gear.
If people are paying mercenaries ((I have no problem with this at all, selling a service is nothing more than business.)) to clear content, it's their choice. Admitting that one lacks ability in certain areas and compensating it through the use of money is absolutely nothing new ((I don't farm and instead buy my food for example)) in real life and in game.
Even if I do meet terrible players ((And I've seen so many it's really, really horrific)) who are unable to do t5 I still won't pay for a win or ask for the bar to be lowered. I'd tell everyone to start bucking up.
You don't ask a challenge to lower itself. You rise to the occasion. That's how you get better. Coddling players who are bad, lowering the challenge just for them is nothing more than telling them that it's okay to be bad and to stay bad. Giving them access to harsher content will not motivate them to get better.
While I would gladly promote the longevity of the game I would rather have bad players do different content as opposed to doing hard content they can't do simply because they won't get good. -
08-20-2014, 08:56 PMDwillWhile I agree that plenty of people playing this game are new to raiding, it doesn't justify making this game mind numbingly boring and not remotely challenging that even my cat could complete it by sleeping on my keyboard. Some form of challenge as to exist in a game, something that people can strive to overcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krr
The whole thing here is a matter of lack of skills. During your whole leveling process, the game teaches you how to avoid AoE, how to position yourself, how to deal with adds and pretty much everything you will find in a group/raid environment setting. Now people just to take this set of skills they acquire and use it in said environment and they will be able to raid and do endgame content just fine. The whole difference between a terrible play and an exceptional player is their ability to do perform at their jobs optimally while dealing with mechanics. If people can't do it, then they just have to get better at it until they can. Dumbing down content so that everybody can do it not matter how good they are is not healthy for the game in long-term run. Yes there are some content that is worse than other in this game but there is nothing that's hard enough to justify nerfing it (Savage Coil excluded, not saying it needs a nerf), especially considering the amount of people who already cleared it at the same iLvL and often even lower. -
08-20-2014, 10:40 PMFendredThen you have nothing to worry about because the suggestion I made wouldn't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
Also, the fact that WoW blew every other MMORPG out of the water in subscriptions shows that addons did not ruin the game during Wrath of the Lich King. If anything, it suggests that the use of addons made the game more enjoyable for a greater number of people. Also, some of those indicators were pretty awesome to look at, and it freed up people to look at all the other cool things around them. Being forced to stare at a health bar for the majority of the time you are doing a fight never has been, and never will be, a fun thing.
Plus, I think Yoshida is treating the accomplishments of the modding community like they haven't played an integral role in the evolution of MMORPG game play when they were just as instrumental in tuning the balance of the game as anything the developers did. Someone above gave an example where all the players in a contest couldn't defeat a boss because they were used to playing with addons. The aforementioned poster is looking at this in the wrong way though: The fact is that the benefits of addons to improving the game play experience were so prevalent that everyone, even the best players, had to have them.
Btw, WoW was still gaining and maintaining subs during Wrath of the Lich King, so I think I can be fairly confident in saying they found the golden middle with raiding difficulty. Looking at how they balanced the encounters without looking at how the addons also helped tune those fights would only be getting it half right. -
08-20-2014, 11:14 PMabzoluut
Yes please! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...18#post2351718
For those who use savage coil as their argument: while it is nice to have yet another difficulty, "normal" Coil still remains too hard for the average Joe. Not to mention that right now it's just in there as a Beta so the devs can make the right call with this kind of content, hence no rewards.
Right now it feels like Yoshi wants to cater to the new people he so often mentions. So the difficulty is somewhere in between. Another fact is people having problems creating/managing a group they can clear stuff with apart from being on at the same time. So yes, give a "Raid Finder" option so pugs can clear Coil and for us, people who are motivated to put effort in a static, have more of a challenge. -
08-20-2014, 11:27 PMFendredso your point is that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel_Clover
A) We're playing an entry level MMORPG designed for mass appeal...
B) Puts all of those different player demographics it is appealing to in the same room and...
C) ... lots of people get stuck on raid content regardless of individual skill because others on their team are far less skilled then they are...
I'm failing to see how you are disagreeing with me in the slightest. My suggestion wouldn't even effect high end static groups. It just opens a middle ground for mixed teams.
I'm starting to think these forums have a negative effect the reading comprehension of people who come here. We all need to get away from this place before it destroys our minds and turns us into zombies.
ZOMBIES!
I don't have a zombie picture to accompany this. Someone help me! :( -
08-20-2014, 11:29 PMNoel_Clover
Actually they lost 800,000 subs. ((SOURCE)) : http://www.gamespot.com/articles/wor.../1100-6421529/ . But then again they lose and gain every now and then.
I would like to point out that add-ons made things easier, and so players were unable to work with a more manual system. I think I'm the one you're quoting on add-ons by the way, I could be wrong and presumptuous. Hope I'm not. It would be terribly embarrassing.
I would also say that your view of the add-on usage is also a wrong view then, because people were really coddled by the use of add-ons and really can't do raids and stuff without them. And I'm being perfectly serious here. I'm looking at it in a very broad, general view with the idea of players actually getting better in mind. I'm not dismissing that add-ons do help ((I used add-ons to modify text and location of words, but never, ever used anything to tell me to start running and stuff)) a gamer, but it's most certainly a crutch for players who do use it. Remove this crutch and you get what we have now in FFXIV: Players being unable to complete simple objectives, like going to a dedicated damage sponge team or not get under Twintania for conflag because they're used to giant text popping up in their faces with wonderful alerting sounds blaring up their ears.
It's like driving stick after driving a wonderful, convenient auto for a long, long while. You'll probably suck at it.
The "best players" ((Term used loosely mind you)) had to use mods because at that point everyone was using and applying the rule of "Use it or beat it" ((seriously)) , and I remember something about Blizzard starting to tune stuff to the use of add-ons. I might be wrong on the latter mind you, but the former was the case with some of the people I talked to. Not that it's everyone since I don't talk to a few million people, but it still gave an image. -
08-20-2014, 11:29 PMDwillWe don't need more reasons justify people being bad and waste developer times because they can't clear something that's been cleared by thousands of people already. Echo is there a to help people. If you can't kill it with Echo, you seriously need to just get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
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08-20-2014, 11:34 PMVelhartThis is one thing I don't agree on necessarily. Addons are nice, yes, but addons like Deadly Boss Mod exists because people were not willing to learn to watch the mechanics themselves. It did promote laziness, but with PUG's in WoW, it just felt like a necessary evil sometimes. An MMO is well designed when you have less desire to use addons. In FFXIV's case, the only time I have wanted the addon feature to finally arrive is for a built in DPS Meter, which has 20 threads of it's own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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08-20-2014, 11:48 PMFendredI'm talking about Wrath of the Lich King, which was WoW circa 2008. Go look at financial reports for it at that point in time. They were in the positive and gaining subs at that point. You are erroneously looking at a financial report from 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel_Clover
Addons hardly "coddled" players. Teams still wiped frequently before defeating bosses. Also, I hardly consider finding a good golden middle that lets the different demographics meet and share a genuine raiding experience (which is not Crystal Tower) "coddling" players. Especially when they have time to create an even harder mode for the top 1% of players like Blue Garter (I'm looking at you, "wasting developer time on newbs" Dwill...) -
08-20-2014, 11:51 PMskatergerThis. But when you allow third party addons developed by the community to be part of your game, this is what is to be expected. People will always try to make things easier, as seen not only by bigwigs/dbm but also addons like powerauras. I never knew anyone that raided hardcore in wow not to have these 2 addons. I hope that stuff like dbm and powerauras will never make an appearance in ff14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
1. It's not necessary to have a big flashy red icon to show firestarted/thundercloud procs. The default UI is more than enough
2. You don't need anyone announcing twister/divebomb/voice. Just watch the cast bar.
3. You should never need to look at your hotkeys ever while playing. 90% of your focus should be on raid awareness and what is going on around you.
People have gotten so accustomed to using these tools that when they don't have access to it suddenly, it seems like they forgotten how to play. I honestly think this could be one of the reasons of the low skill cap of players in this game. The only addons I think worth having are like you mentioned dps meter and UI/raid frames addons like xperl and inv/bag management like altoholic.
They didn't coddle players, but they made it significantly easier. If not it wouldn't be mandatory for raiders. Bad players will be bad, they will die even with dbm, but for your middle of the road raider, it made it much easier, so much so that when they are deprived of it like in ff14, they suddenly start finding they are unable to cope. Raid awareness is 1 of the most important skills of raiding and dbm negated much of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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08-20-2014, 11:58 PMAmberionIt was released in November 2008, and had a slight increase in subs before it. But they lost those after like 2 months. So it did not do so well. WoTLK started it's turn for the worse, subs stagnated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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08-21-2014, 12:05 AMDwillWrong, try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberion
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ibJJaNnI4T...+younkin_b.png
http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/u...nce-Martin.jpg -
08-21-2014, 12:06 AMFendred
I completely agree with both Skaet and V. However, there is another way to look at the modding situation in World of Warcraft. The way boss fights were structured were such a burden to the community that many programmers took hours of their lives to carefully create addons just to announce said abilities, and then continue to update those for years. Not only that, but finding a group of people that didn't use one of these mods by the time Wrath of the Lich King was out was like trying to find a four leaf clover. It would have been a "oh my god, they do exist" situation if you found one. More importantly, they didn't tone down the fights to the level of what is Crystal Tower. They really only dealt with one particular aspect of fights (mostly), which was announcing abilities that could wipe the party- something people are trying to do manually without them anyway. All they did was remove the chance of human error on announcing or accidentally missing a cast bar. Otherwise fights remained entirely intact.
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08-21-2014, 12:10 AMAmberionI used this one: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
And it shows a increase during release, then it declined and stagnated until Pandaria, where it subs plummeted.
EDIT: Guess you quoted it before I edited in the stagnating thing there. -
08-21-2014, 12:25 AMDwillIt shows stagnation 2 years and a half later, not 2 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberion
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08-21-2014, 12:28 AMskatergerI think nobody here denies that the mods are extremely useful and we are thankful to people that spent their time creating and updating it, and when you are trying to push progression it is a godsend. Most of us who used it then didn't think twice about it, it was just something that you accepted you had to install, but looking back at it now in hindsight I kind of wished it was never implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
As for your initial suggestion, I think it could potentially work except for 1 big issue:
Wow had a very clear loot reward system. There were 10/25 man raids, with 25 man raids giving higher ilvl loot than 10 man, and the hard mode iterations of each giving a higher ilvl than the corresponding normal mode. The developers made it clear from the start and the playerbase was mostly okay with it. In ff14, yoshi has made it clear that casuals will always be able to get the same ilvl of gear (weapon aside) in a catch-up patch, see hunts. With your suggestion of a lower ilvl for normal raids, I'm not sure how they are going to balance the gear, not to mention to placate the cries from non raiders about not having the same ilvl of gear as raiders. -
08-21-2014, 12:47 AMSarcasmMisserMy thoughts exactly. I am not against addons, but what I am against are players who are so utterly tunnel vision that their level of human error is just far too high and they depend on event alarms to even follow a fight. Ramuh currently is a perfect example of how low awareness is in your average player, and it's little wonder its so hated by the general population who cannot keep track of anything but themselves in an encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
And I'm not just calling bad players bad, but also faults in even the best raiders. I know people with savage turn clears who still don't know the pattern of the dragon dives in t9, and depend on one player marking and tracking it. Or using event alarms for abilities that are in a static rotation.