Abusing the Trade feature to interrupt, etc

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't see how calling a GM is a better solution than blacklisting the player (unless you really think they deserve to be banned--maybe they do).
Granted, they may not be aware of the option. (Note: I'm talking specifically about trade-griefing).

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I'm not trying to imply that calling a GM is a better option. I've been trade-griefed, I handled it. I do have at least one friend who cannot handle it though. They are one of those people who will never say anything during a dungeon run because of their social anxiety. They've locked themselves in the inn room just because somebody was following them. I do not think they would be able to handle trade-griefing and contacting the GM might seem the only way to deal with it to them. I didn't know that blacklisting or setting your status to busy would block trades, I'll let her know.

If you're trying to imply that's what I did, you're wrong. I've been getting interrupted doing various things and the like, but mostly during Hunts when I'm trying to teleport.

You're fine with this happening from one singular person, but if it's consistently happening from a multitude of people then action is required and a fix needs to happen. In my opinion you simply don't know what the hell you're talking about. Over-reaction? Get real.

It sounds to me you just don't want to lose your precious troll macro.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Lighten up and/or blacklist them.

Sure, it's annoying, but it's really a bit much to want them banned for it.

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Aha hahaha... ha...

Yeah... I can't tell you how many times I've been minding my own business, gathering materials I needed for leveling up crafts or for making my next set of gear on whatever job I was leveling at the time, and some self-important jerk walks up and, without a word, starts spamming me with trades to prevent me from gathering. I don't know where the "every single gatherer you see is a bot and must be stopped" mentality came from, but it sure got old fast for us legitimate people. I mean, seriously, is it so much to ask that you either mind your own business, or, you know, TRY TALKING TO THE PERSON BEFORE SPAMMING THEM WITH TRADES!?!?!? I report anyone I don't know who trades me even once these days because of it on general principle. I can't tell you how sick of it I am, and I do, indeed, hope that each and every one of them is banned. Maybe I'm being a dick about it, sure, but after a year of people spamming me with trades for no real reason that I can see except to stroke their own ego, and make themselves feel important, that's the place I'm at now. Those who came before made those who do it now completely intolerable to me. You try talking to people, you try being nice, and it still just keeps happening. How long is your patience? Because I am completely beyond the end of mine. Once or twice, okay, ignore it. HUNDREDS OF TIMES from HUNDREDS OF INDIVIDUALS, no, this is a serious problem that is not going to stop by ignoring it or doing what I can to take care of it myself. If it is going to stop, a higher authority must be involved. I completely filled up my blacklist, not with people who spam me for RMT purposes, but with people who spammed me with trades because they saw me gathering and every gatherer MUST be a bot. I shouldn't have to /busy every time I need a few materials. I shouldn't see this level of harassment from SO MANY different individuals because I want to craft every once in a while. And no, I am not exaggerating in the least. Literally hundreds of people have done this to me over the past year since this game launched. I don't care if it's their first time ever doing it, or if they legitimately want to hand something to me, if they're not on my friend list, they are reported, period. I've gotten to the point where I just don't even care what their reasons are. I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to be near them. I don't want them on the game at all. I'm that sick of it. This isn't just a, oh I thought that one guy was annoying, sort of thing. This is a, OMFG why do hundreds of people keep freaking doing this to me, sort of thing. There comes a point for everyone where you've had all you can take, and you can't take anymore. I hit that point about eight months ago... and it STILL keeps happening. You go ahead and keep trivializing other people's problems, and we'll keep reporting the people we see as deserving of it. Sorry if I come off as something of an A-hole here, but seriously, this is the thing I hate the absolute most in this game, and you come along arguing fiercely that eh, it's not all that bad, get over it and stop being such an oversensitive whiner. I've been traded during alexandrite maps. I've been traded during Guildleves. I've been traded during hunts. But mostly, I get traded while gathering. This isn't a problem that is just going to get better if I keep doing my own thing about it. This is a problem that is persistent, and keeps happening no matter what I do about it.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

Does blacklisting someone prevent them from initiating a trade? I know this can happen by accident in a crowded area (right-clicking on wrong toon), but obviously if someone is spamming you over and over, it's a different story. Just blacklist them I guess if that prevents it from happening and report it to see if GM does anything about it.

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Yeah this works

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't care for your sob stories, and I think you're inflating the issue.

Permanent suspension is a serious punishment, and should be reserved for only the most dire of issues.

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Then how about a week long ban?
No ida what makes people act like dicks to each other, but there should be some punishment for it.

i got traded during a Mysterious map...

now should i lighten up cause i lost an alexandrite and take it on the shoulder?....

They do it once? Suspend them for a week or two. They do it more than once or do it after the suspension? Permanent ban. That or SE could just fix the issue by not allowing trades during teleports, battle leves, chests, etc.

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Originally Posted by Surian

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Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

This issue can easily be fixed by changing so when people initiate trade it pops up a window in bottom right corner that u must open and accept before the trade can begin.

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Could be fixed even quicker by simply not allowing people to trade when you are teleporting. Give them a big fat red error with "You cannot currently do that" or something. It's well within SE's power to do this, and it's a meaninglessly simple change.

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That may (or may not) be quicker, but it would solve just one particular example of the problem, whereas Devils_Lawyer's suggestion solves a wider range of problems.

Just in this thread alone, we've seen complaints of the Trade window interrupting teleports, spell-casting, and gathering, and all of those can cause real problems. It may also interrupt other things as well.

And there can be more minor issues with it too (where it's merely an annoyance rather than a real problem, but if the same solution can fix those annoyances as well, all the better). For instance, I know it interrupts typing in the chat window, and that one can cause problems even on legitimate trades. I was offered some gear an FC-mate had crafted, and as I was typing out something to the effect of "Yes, thanks, that'd be great," the Trade window popped up taking keyboard focus so that my chat text cancelled the very trade I was trying to thank him for.

The notification window already exists and is used for everything from FC invites to loot drops. An icon pops up in the corner telling you some loot dropped, or that someone invited you to their FC, or that giving commendations is available, or whatever; then when you're ready to deal with it you click the icon to bring up the corresponding window. Trades could work the same way, and then they wouldn't interrupt anything, while still being just as convenient (or more so) for those trying to use it legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't care for your sob stories, and I think you're inflating the issue.

Permanent suspension is a serious punishment, and should be reserved for only the most dire of issues.

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Actually, if the permanent suspension was used more most MMO communities would be purged of their idiots pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Markas

Eh, maybe not banned but GM jail (does xiv have a GM jail?) would be nice.

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They do lol

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't care for your sob stories, and I think you're inflating the issue.

Permanent suspension is a serious punishment, and should be reserved for only the most dire of issues.

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Ah, but you see in the 2009 Salvage Bans in FFXI it was simply duping gear that did nothing but save people time from farming the same remnant over and over...duping is an exploit but it wasn't 'dire enough' for SE to go:

"Nope, you dun goof'd after we warned you we're watching."

And laid the smack down, even on people considered 'key FFXI players' - Of course it made the news because a company dare not actually...ban players for breaking the rules, especially en mass. In all honesty, they need to man up like that again, it's almost guaranteed people would straighten up even if it lasts only a few months.

Also, stop saying it's immaturity - You steal a candy bar, you're stealing, it's not ok because "it's only a candy bar", breaking the rules is breaking the rules - some minor some major, but if you do nothing at all you're honestly sending the message:

"It's perfectly ok to break the rules, go ahead!"

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Ah, but you see in the 2009 Salvage Bans in FFXI it was simply duping gear that did nothing but save people time from farming the same remnant over and over...duping is an exploit but it wasn't 'dire enough' for SE to go:

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I thought that was nyzule runs in the tower, I remember everyone cheering when mini dragon got banned. hahaha Though kinda sucked for people who got banned just by joining the group and didn't know what was going on.

I am glad I didn't do nyzule at that time, I was busy doing other stuff.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

I thought that was nyzule runs in the tower, I remember everyone cheering when mini dragon got banned. hahaha Though kinda sucked for people who got banned just by joining the group and didn't know what was going on.

I am glad I didn't do nyzule at that time, I was busy doing other stuff.

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Nah, was Salvage. It is part of the same dungeon set (Nyzul Isle) but Nyzul was generally a separate thing (Floors 1-100+) while Salvage were the separate 3 dungeon section (Bhaflau, Silver Seas and Arra..something Remnants.)

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Also, stop saying it's immaturity - You steal a candy bar, you're stealing, it's not ok because "it's only a candy bar", breaking the rules is breaking the rules - some minor some major

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I never said it was ok. I said (in the post you quoted, no less) that people are inflating the issue.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Resetting hunts was a bigger issue, the way I see it. It affected all the players involved, and was much harder to deal with.

For trade-interrupts, /busy and /blist completely negate the issue. Of course, you can't always do this preemptively (and then the damage is likely already done), but you at least have definite ways to deal with it in-game.

I have no issue with anything else you wrote.

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Well for a start i don't want to set my self to busy! how can i trade with my friends or get tells! you know i like to do these things with my friends!
You say black list well sorry my blacklist gets fill to often just for gold sellers!
So nether of these options work!
Yes i will report them strait away they made the choice to do it knowing what would happen to me the player.
Meany times i have had my maps ruined by people doing this why should my work go wasted cause of some trolls who think its funny!

I think this is one of those situations where you can say, if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. And if you are, is any form of punishment too harsh considering that you could easily just choose not to troll in the first place? If people want to troll that's on them, but don't be surprised when there are consequences.

Just use /busy. At this point there's really no excuse not to. If you can't be bothered to recieve a trade that interrupts you or you're really in a rush then just switch yourself to busy and problem solved. Complaining about something that can be fixed is stupid honestly.

If they can ban you on the forums for just being rude then i don't see why they can't do it in game as well. ppl who do this over and over to others maybe GMs can ban them for 1 or 2 weeks that not be the end of the world but at the same time i don't think they will come back doing it again

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Originally Posted by YmirEsc

Just use /busy. At this point there's really no excuse not to. If you can't be bothered to recieve a trade that interrupts you or you're really in a rush then just switch yourself to busy and problem solved. Complaining about something that can be fixed is stupid honestly.

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All it takes for someone to trade you while you're try to doan Alex map at the right time and you'll die.

Why should I have /busy up all the time in fear of an "eventual" trade harassment?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

All it takes for someone to trade you while you're try to doan Alex map at the right time and you'll die.

Why should I have /busy up all the time in fear of an "eventual" trade harassment?

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I'm not saying 24/7, I'm saying when you're doing something important. If setting yourself to /busy while you're doing something important is too much work for you, good luck being taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I never said it was ok. I said (in the post you quoted, no less) that people are inflating the issue.

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To me, it seems there are two sides to this thread. The first by Mr. Argyle_Darkheart, who is taking a methodical and empathetic approach to the subject. Basically saying we shouldn't be so reactionary to trolls (which have been around since the internet was born.) Most likely the trade spammers (or whatever you want to call them,) are just stupid teenagers tiring to get a rise out of others.

The other side of this are the people with a "throw the bums in jail!" mentality. These people say it's the principle of the matter and that these trade spammers should be taught a lesson, but let's be honest here...these people just want to be vindictive. Most likely they were the target of a trade toll and just want to lash back. Why sink to that level? Anyone besides the trolls are bigger then the trolls (in more ways than one) and thus they are not worth anyone's time or attention.

If you own a car, you have to expect that some idiot might ram into you on the road and damage it. So you buy insurance. If you own a house, you have to expect that someone might break into it. So you get a security system. If you play FFXIV: ARR and your doing something important and sensitive out in the open, you have to expect trolls to grief you. So you put up /busy beforehand.

If SE was as ban-happy as the latter half of this topic is, there would be no subscribers and thus no game.

Remember this saying: "The more people fight fire with fire, the more the world burns."

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Originally Posted by YmirEsc

I'm not saying 24/7, I'm saying when you're doing something important. If setting yourself to /busy while you're doing something important is too much work for you, good luck being taken seriously.

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The point of the matter is I shouldn't need to do this if proper etiquette and decorum of the online community is followed.

Why should I expect to be harassed while out on the field minding my own business. Apparently the onus is on me to prevent someone else's indiscretion? No. Someone willing chose to harass me. The onus is on them to hold their itchy grief finger. If not, they risk the punishment, whatever it may be.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The point of the matter is I shouldn't need to do this if proper etiquette and decorum of the online community is followed.

Why should I expect to be harassed while out on the field minding my own business. Apparently the onus is on me to prevent someone else's indiscretion? No. Someone willing chose to harass me. The onus is on them to hold their itchy grief finger. If not, they risk the punishment, whatever it may be.

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I would agree with you if there wasn't already methods implemented to prevent it.

/busy is part of the game for a reason- so nobody can bother you. Use what SE already has rather than kick and scream about something you already can stop.

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Originally Posted by YmirEsc

I'm not saying 24/7, I'm saying when you're doing something important. If setting yourself to /busy while you're doing something important is too much work for you, good luck being taken seriously.

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/Busy blocks tells, btw. What if your friend is trying to chat with you and you're not in the same FC or Linkshells? Thus constantly using it blocks a communication channel as well and simply adding them to your linkshells and FC isn't always viable because sometimes you have multiple linkshhells for certain things (statics/hunts etc) and they can't freely join it.

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Originally Posted by Darki

The other side of this are the people with a "throw the bums in jail!" mentality. These people say it's the principle of the matter and that these trade spammers should be taught a lesson, but let's be honest here...these people just want to be vindictive. Most likely they were the target

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Never happened to me. I just know SE doing nothing at all is how a lot of issue start cropping up in MMOs because whether one likes it or not, it does send the message it's ok to harass people.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The point of the matter is I shouldn't need to do this if proper etiquette and decorum of the online community is followed.

Why should I expect to be harassed while out on the field minding my own business. Apparently the onus is on me to prevent someone else's indiscretion? No. Someone willing chose to harass me. The onus is on them to hold their itchy grief finger. If not, they risk the punishment, whatever it may be.

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Well it seems to me that you can ether demand that everyone else follow your request to be more civilized and expect them to do so or take steps to guard yourself in case people are not. What do you think is the smarter choice?

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Originally Posted by Darki

but let's be honest here...these people just want to be vindictive. Most likely they were the target of a trade toll and just want to lash back. Why sink to that level? Anyone besides the trolls are bigger then the trolls (in more ways than one) and thus they are not worth anyone's time or attention.

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I was never a target of a trade troll, but I still believe that if people do it more than once a GM should be called and punishment be enacted. Why people want to promote that stupid actions should have no consequences is beyond me.

Now, I do not believe they have to be perma banned or anything (unless they keep repeating the offense a lot), but why would you want people to get away with trolling people to such a degree that they cannot play properly or at all? Seems ridiculous. If someone keeps trading you, that can effectively make you unable to play the game. You'd have to log out and wait for them to leave, you really think this should not be punished? It baffles me.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

/Busy blocks tells, btw. What if your friend is trying to chat with you and you're not in the same FC or Linkshells? Thus constantly using it blocks a communication channel as well and simply adding them to your linkshells and FC isn't always viable because sometimes you have multiple linkshhells for certain things (statics/hunts etc) and they can't freely join it.



Never happened to me. I just know SE doing nothing at all is how a lot of issue start cropping up in MMOs because whether one likes it or not, it does send the message it's ok to harass people.

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Then either you add them to a LS or use something like TS.
Once again, you don't have to keep it on 24/7. Relaying pos every hunt through /tells is ridiculous anyways, tell your friend to hold his or her own weight.
At that point that's their problem, not yours.

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Originally Posted by YmirEsc

I would agree with you if there wasn't already methods implemented to prevent it.

/busy is part of the game for a reason- so nobody can bother you. Use what SE already has rather than kick and scream about something you already can stop.

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Originally Posted by Darki

Well it seems to me that you can ether demand that everyone else follow your request to be more civilized and expect them to do so or take steps to guard yourself in case people are not. What do you think is the smarter choice?

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I agree to disagree, because what I'm advocating is everyone to play nice and respect other players in this game. You two are advocating is that it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and everyone should look after themselves and their own self-interest.

I can respect the opinion, though I disagree with it, but I also know that I have no solidifying counterpoint to it since it's my own opinion versus yours on how the matter should be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I was never a target of a trade troll, but I still believe that if people do it more than once a GM should be called and punishment be enacted. Why people want to promote that stupid actions should have no consequences is beyond me.

Now, I do not believe they have to be perma banned or anything (unless they keep repeating the offense a lot), but why would you want people to get away with trolling people to such a degree that they cannot play properly or at all? Seems ridiculous. If someone keeps trading you, that can effectively make you unable to play the game. You'd have to log out and wait for them to leave, you really think this should not be punished? It baffles me.

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I believe you when you say that you were never trade trolled. To answer your question, it is because trade trolls are bellow you and everyone else who isn't a troll. They are simply not worth your attention, time or energy. Let's say that you were in fact trade trolled. They have already effected your gameplay and maybe even irked you a little. Now you want to give them more of your time energy and attention by filling out a GM report and then wait and wait for a response from said GM? ...Why? Your gameplay is far less effected if you just calmly put up /busy (preferably beforehand) and go back to enjoying the game. Don't give trolls a victory by letting them inside your head rent free.

If it makes you feel better, try thinking of the "busy" symbol by your name as a big middle finger to the trolls.

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Originally Posted by YmirEsc

Then either you add them to a LS or use something like TS.

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See? As I stated, sometimes that's not feasible at all. You shouldn't have to work around these people in order to avoid being harassed by them.

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Relaying pos every hunt through /tells is ridiculous anyways, tell your friend to hold his or her own weight.

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No one said anything about relaying Hunt spawns through tells....guess I'm just one of the few people who actually chat with someone via tells :x

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I agree to disagree, because what I'm advocating is everyone to play nice and respect other players in this game. You two are advocating is that it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and everyone should look after themselves and their own self-interest.

I can respect the opinion, though I disagree with it, but I also know that I have no solidifying counterpoint to it since it's my own opinion versus yours on how the matter should be dealt with.

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And that's a great thing to advocate. There are even others out there just like you who advocate the same thing. More power to ya. If that day ever comes, I will be the first person to join you on the beach with a a tray of pina coladas. But reality is still reality and it only cares about what is. Not about what is right and wrong. Though like you, I wish it were different :(

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Originally Posted by Darki

I believe you when you say that you were never trade trolled. To answer your question, it is because trade trolls are bellow you and everyone else who isn't a troll. They are simply not worth your attention, time or energy. Let's say that you were in fact trade trolled. They have already effected your gameplay and maybe even irked you a little. Now you want to give them more fill out a GM report and then wait and wait for a response from said GM? ...Why? Your gameplay is far less effected if you just calmly put up /busy (preferably beforehand) and go back to enjoying the game. Don't give trolls a victory by letting them inside your head rent free.

If it makes you feel better, try thinking of the "busy" symbol by your name as a big middle finger to the trolls.

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I understand your point that it is below us, but like others said, putting yourself on busy makes you unable to communicate with certain friends. Basically what you are saying is everyone should just run around with /busy on and play like this is a single player game...when it is a MMO. So to some people putting up /busy will not make it so you can go back to enjoying the game...since you know some people have friends that they like to talk to.

Also I am unsure about what you mean about "waiting" for a response from a GM...you do not have to just sit there and wait you can do whatever you want. GM's can even send /tells to you while you are in an instance.

So instead of making everyone run around with /busy on all the time, maybe it is better to promote that this behaviour is not acceptable, cause it's not lol

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Never happened to me. I just know SE doing nothing at all is how a lot of issue start cropping up in MMOs because whether one likes it or not, it does send the message it's ok to harass people.

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You make it sound like trolls will magically disappear and you will never see anymore again if you "send a message." Trolls don't care if it's ok or not. They will do it anyway. The're trolls lol. They have been around since the birth of the internet. Plus, there will always be new ones to take the place of the old ones. But you go ahead and descend upon them with blood tipped wings and a flaming sword and let me know how it turns out.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I understand your point that it is below us, but like others said, putting yourself on busy makes you unable to communicate with certain friends. Basically what you are saying is everyone should just run around with /busy on and play like this is a single player game...when it is a MMO. So to some people putting up /busy will not make it so you can go back to enjoying the game...since you know some people have friends that they like to talk to.

Also I am unsure about what you mean about "waiting" for a response from a GM...you do not have to just sit there and wait you can do whatever you want. GM's can even send /tells to you while you are in an instance.

So instead of making everyone run around with /busy on all the time, maybe it is better to promote that this behaviour is not acceptable, cause it's not lol

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Not all the time. Just during sensitive times like gathering and map farming for example. No point in having up during times that trolls can't get to you.

In my experience, GMs take a good while to respond. If they are faster with you then I guess you lucked out.

There's always gotta be that one guy who has to play the role of douchebags' advocate.

So Darki what your saying is work around the trolls time? hide from them and let them do what they want yea if this world was like that i guess hackers and ppl who rob others never be in jail the fact is GMs are the cops of our lil world and we need to report ppl doing bad things as this is the only way the game will grow. I'm not saying the kids or trolls need a ban forever but a few days to a week may clean stuff up

I see a lot of people talking about how SE needs to implement measures to make sure that this sort of thing can't happen to begin with. That's a good line of thinking. SE should implement measures to make trading work like things such as party/LS/FC invites and loot and the like. I think what everyone who is arguing that it's not worth the time and effort of reporting is missing, is that if this type of behavior isn't reported and brought to the attention of GMs as being something that can be abused, SE won't notice that it is something that needs to be fixed. People arguing against reporting griefers who use this tactic, I would ask you to consider that reports of this nature are used for reasons other than just handing out punishment. Reporting things like this also help bring unintended mechanics/uses/exploits to the attention of the development team so that they can find ways to deal with them and make the game more functional and enjoyable for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

So Darki what your saying is work around the trolls time? hide from them and let them do what they want yea if this world was like that i guess hackers and ppl who rob others never be in jail the fact is GMs are the cops of our lil world and we need to report ppl doing bad things as this is the only way the game will grow. I'm not saying the kids or trolls need a ban forever but a few days to a week may clean stuff up

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Authorities (GMs) are for when preventive measures have failed. If you didn't even make the attempt to take preventive measures then sorry it's partly your fault. Like they say in the Boy's and Girl's Scouts: "Be Prepared."

Guard yourself so you don't have to run to the GMs so much. The game developers have even given us many tools to keep trolls out of our gameplay. The vote kick, blacklist, /busy and coming soon to patch 2.35: the ability to kick trolls out of the FC regardless if they have a private room or not, and updated mechanics to Hunts and Frontline. These are all great tools that work well when people actually use them.

But you want to ignore the fact that these tools exist and run to the GM every time someone disturbs your gameplay? I think you want to be trade trolled so you have an excuse to play victim. There is no other explanation.
Support prevention. Not retaliation.

Oh and your getting robed analogy? Let me paint you a picture:

Police: "So Ms. Bank Manager, you say you were robed?"
Mannager: "Yes and I want the robber caught this instant!"
Police: "Ok lets look at the safe so we can check for clues"
Manager "A safe? We don't have one. We trusted people to only take what is in their accounts."
Police "...um...ok what about security camera footage?"
Manager: "We don't have a camera system ether"
Police: "You mean to tell me you didn't take any preventive measures to safeguard the money?"
Manager: "Hey! Don't lecture me on how to run my bank! It is your job to catch this hooligan!"
Police: "Ma'am, we will put out an A.P.B on the thief but you should at least attempt to guard your client's money so that it wouldn't be taken by someone with just their bare hands."

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Originally Posted by Darki

But you want to ignore the fact that these tools exist and run to the GM every time someone disturbs your gameplay? I think you want to be trade trolled so you have an excuse to play victim. There is no other explanation."

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Thank you for illustrating my point. Let's all blame the victim!

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Thank you for illustrating my point. Let's all blame the victim!

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Originally Posted by Darki

What you are saying is that victims should not be obligated to guard themselves in any way. That someone else should do all the work for them. This is highly impractical not to mention a lot less safe than being prepared in the first place. Prevention isn't foolproof of course. But doing nothing...is far worse.

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