29 Attempts of Garuda Ex - Raise ilvl Req or Fix

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

That's mostly true due to the fact you can get Ilvl101 without ever setting foot in coil. (well with Alliance Marks you can reach 110 now) The token system sort of ruins using ilvl to evaluate player "skill". If there were no tokens, and coil 1-5, ex primals, and coil 6-9 were the only way to obtain 90+ gear it would be a lot more relevant.

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It's true that high ilvl doesn't indicate skill. But ain't noone getting carried through scob. Check for high allagan.

Yeah I would never go into an EX in DF expecting to get a clear. And I would usually look up a guide first just so I have some understanding of what will be going on (generally I use written guides as they are faster and still help a lot.)

Since my current static is missing 2-3 people we have to rely on a few randoms when we want to practice/attempt to clear an EX, and that generally does not go very well since most of the decent randoms seem to ragequit after 1 wipe even if we get very close to beating the primal and it was just a small error that caused it which could easily be fixed, etc.

So yeah basically, if you want to actually clear, get help from a FC or LS. You can use PF but that is not always reliable either. Never use DF if you are hoping for a clear

From time to time I go to DF as a healer to do extremes just to get LB3 and raise everyone do they can die again.

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Originally Posted by heheesyo

It's true that high ilvl doesn't indicate skill. But ain't noone getting carried through scob. Check for high allagan.

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You can get carried in T6/7 easily, and T8/9 win services have been sold.

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Originally Posted by heheesyo

If you're complaining before you even get to titan, you should probably just move on to mog and Levi. SE isn't going to fix something that's not broken. Remember that thousands and thousands beat the fight you're complaining about with much lower gear and no echo.

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Thousands and thousands? I wasn't aware you had access to the metrics SE uses to track such things.

Honestly I bet if they release the metrics on the endgame fights to show unique player clears, it's going to be so pitifully low for a lot of the fights. Then again I doubt SE will release this info with the upcoming census because it'll become apparent there's a problem with their design.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Thousands and thousands? I wasn't aware you had access to the metrics SE uses to track such things.

Honestly I bet if they release the metrics on the endgame fights to show unique player clears, it's going to be so pitifully low for a lot of the fights. Then again I doubt SE will release this info with the upcoming census because it'll become apparent there's a problem with their design.

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It's not a design problem it's a people problem. T5 for example had people at i82 beat it without echo buff, now with 20% echo and item levels in the 90-100s people still can't beat it.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

It's not a design problem it's a people problem. T5 for example had people at i82 beat it without echo buff, now with 20% echo and item levels in the 90-100s people still can't beat it.

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This.
It's not Square Enix's fault that people can't handle simple mechanics such as "Swap at 2 stacks" and "Don't kill this"

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

It's not a design problem it's a people problem. T5 for example had people at i82 beat it without echo buff, now with 20% echo and item levels in the 90-100s people still can't beat it.

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When they design content that gear and echo do nothing to help, that's a design issue.

The problem is the majority of players aren't hardcore, but the devs are designing the majority of content to be hardcore, and far more difficult then the endgame of a good number of other MMO's I've played. SE is entirely out of touch with the player base that plays the game. I imagine if they released the metrics on the actual number of unique players who are clearing content, the numbers would show a very bad curve of failure to clears and be the nail in the coffin that the devs are making a game for the wrong playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

When they design content that gear and echo do nothing to help, that's a design issue.

The problem is the majority of players aren't hardcore, but the devs are designing the majority of content to be hardcore, and far more difficult then the endgame of a good number of other MMO's I've played. SE is entirely out of touch with the player base that plays the game. I imagine if they released the metrics on the actual number of unique players who are clearing content, the numbers would show a very bad curve of failure to clears and be the nail in the coffin that the devs are making a game for the wrong playerbase.

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Not to be disrespectful, but with this logic, it sounds more like SE should design new content geared more towards casual players instead of lowering the difficulty (or raising the ilvl) on duties like Coil or any of the EX primals. That being said, both LOA and ST provide decent gear and are easy enough to complete just by using DF, so there is content for those who aren't "hardcore" enough to complete the harder stuff. Honestly though, while I said before that minimum ilvl requirement will make the DPS checks much more tight, it is still very possible to beat any EX primal with minimum requirements. You just need a group that knows the fight. To learn the fight, one simply has to experience it through Df, PF, or watch a video. Once the mechanics are learned, any ex fight isn't all that bad. I wont speak for coil as I haven't beaten any of the turns yet, but I image the same principles apply to that as well, given enough time.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

When they design content that gear and echo do nothing to help, that's a design issue.

The problem is the majority of players aren't hardcore, but the devs are designing the majority of content to be hardcore, and far more difficult then the endgame of a good number of other MMO's I've played. SE is entirely out of touch with the player base that plays the game. I imagine if they released the metrics on the actual number of unique players who are clearing content, the numbers would show a very bad curve of failure to clears and be the nail in the coffin that the devs are making a game for the wrong playerbase.

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No, it isn't a design problem. It is a GOOD thing that there are mechanics that you can't overcome through brute force by overgearing it. Garuda is one such fight that you can straight brute force by killing the spiny, using tank lb for that one, then killing garuda before the last aerial blast. You don't even need to tank swap because the spiny boom at 3 stacks does under 4k damage.

Make stuff too easy, the hardcore player base is going to go elsewhere because not having a challenge, ever, is incredibly boring. The thrill of defeating challenging content is the point of top tier content. Why would you want to remove such a cornerstone of what makes a game good?

All the ex primals are beatable at the minimum ilvl. The problem is usually terrible dps, the majority of people can't play their jobs to anywhere near their potential.

As for Garuda Ex, if newer parties stopped using the retarded tanking method that seems to have been the norm since the fight came out and used the triangle method instead, it's a lot safer.

Standard Method:
- MT eating double wicked wheels until Surpana dies or is pulled away (which require cooldowns to not be one shotted on a less geared tank).
- Melees frequently getting one shotted by said wicked wheels.
- OT taking full damage from Downburst (5-6k unmitigated).

Triangle (JP Method):
- MT only takes single wicked wheels, a breeze to tank.
- OT tanks Surpana (who does basically nothing damaging when far away from boss).
- Tanks can relax and be more focused on spiny plume than on not dying.
- DPS tank Chirada (her auto attacks do less than dungeon trash mobs and Downburst damage is negligible split between party).

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Triangle (JP Method):
- MT only takes single wicked wheels, a breeze to tank.
- OT tanks Surpana (who does basically nothing damaging when far away from boss).
- Tanks can relax and be more focused on spiny plume than on not dying.
- DPS tank Chirada (her auto attacks do less than dungeon trash mobs and Downburst damage is negligible split between party).

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Holy cow. I feel totally schooled that\\'s an awesome idea for the fight a good use of a DRG with the right skills to hold enimity. Curious since I haven\\'t seen this as I tend to only get fight info from FC mates( who have been doing it the wrong way) I\\'m guess the MT and OT just spiny as needed?

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Triangle (JP Method):
- MT only takes single wicked wheels, a breeze to tank.
- OT tanks Surpana (who does basically nothing damaging when far away from boss).
- Tanks can relax and be more focused on spiny plume than on not dying.
- DPS tank Chirada (her auto attacks do less than dungeon trash mobs and Downburst damage is negligible split between party).

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My first clear ever was via DF as monk and that's how the tank did it, my following clears that had new tanks I suggested this route and it works fine . Ive had no prob clearing this on DF. But you do get those groups who think their is only one way to do things. When I leveled war it inevertably became my primary with endgame. I remember my first time tanking I pulled suprana as that's how i learned the fight. Group went into a rage asking if this was my first clear as I tanked sup with dual haken lol... We wiped while they had their tantrums which inevitably made me a troll and got Das Boot lol

I did this at ilvl 7x I think, it was a pretty easy and straight forward fight. The whole community was interested in garuda at that time. People farmed garuda for rings. Now, unless u want the lolcrap mount, u only do this for fun or so, and will very rarely get experienced players take part in this fight with people who haven't cleared. I'm kinda having a similar issue with Titan. I quit for while, and now that I've come back, nobody is interested in this fight. Exp players barely meet up to do this fight ( unless sell ) and they are pretty hard to convince when it comes to helping out at it. Which is ofc understandable, they don't need to wipe for hours so newbies can learn, unless they want titans lolcrap mount.

lol wondering what u doing for Titan

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I like how some of the content is designed as a road block. Keeps some people out of where they shouldn't be.

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Except it's not. As far as I know (I have not unlocked Ramu) the Ex Primals are not a requirement for any significant content at endgame. And if it's only Ramuh that requires it, that is one Primal fight which in turn blocks nothing.

An effective road block would be a story dungeon like Castrum not too far into the level 50 main scenarios that the Primal Ex fights, all Coils, and HM dungeons were reliant on, that was actually challenging, and required skill to complete. Hell, make a solo instance so folks couldn't rely on carries or higher geared players to help out.

The problem with the EX fights is that there is no real test to get into them. I have seen, in my now 40 LEvi Ex fights, the same person get swept off the side 3, 4, 7 times. People die from easy to spot aoes, or ignore the adds the they are instructed to focus on. People who should not be there in an EX fight because they are consistently incompetent, and drag down the competent players to a level that makes beating the fight impossible. Players who probably got carried through the HM fight and are looking for a carry in an EX fight.

I won't lie, I was an incompetent tank when I first hit 50. I would consistently lose aggro on one to two mobs in fights with 5+. I was doing some end game gear (thanks to the ridiculously easy myth accrual) as a brand new 50 tank with i90 gear. But I learned, I read guides, I watched vids of hm and ex fights, and I picked up the ball and ran. There's too many players at end game who aren't willing to learn, or do so at the expense of other players time without the decency or respect to even point out that they don't know or only kinda know what they are doing.
I'm not a dick, I offer help to new players or folks new in a class I am proficient in, even at the end game level. I direct people to useful guides I've read or MrHappy on youtube for primal fights. But if you wipe die 3 times in a row from the same thing, after being told multiple times what to avoid, I will attempt to get you booted unless it was a training run or we are going for your clear.

I beat titan ex tonight. Months, no kidding. Don't give up. The problem is that this content is dead in terms of people actively practising and being motivated enough to get a kill. All u see are mount farm groups held by " if I see Myth message I kick" ppl, theres no way for non-kill exped people to get into these parties, you need to meet 7 other non exped people who also want to complete these old extremes......simply for personal satisfaction really. Was kinda shocked to see our Lavender beds 4 Linkshell recruiting for titan practice, felt so much nicer than PF too. Titan drops trash and only locks u out of Ifrit, which also drops trash. It's a long hard road to do it w/o getting carried, but it feels good when u get it.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

I usually try to fill at least half the group with FC friends for EX Primals. I go in as tank myself so I know at least one of the two tanks is going to know the ropes. Lately I've been getting a lot of first timers through DF but I've found many of them to be very much competent and attentive to instruction. The painful thing is when a good group times out and you need to get a new crop of randoms.

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cleared T5 with a new tank myself just yesterday actually. It is surprising how willingness to learn really goes a long way. not everyone that uses the DF is a total a**hat after all ^^

oh and OP: Titan is harder than garuda. Ifrit is waaaaaaay easier and can almost certainly be cleared in the DF

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Originally Posted by Auloriel

snip (good stuff)

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a lot of people are AFRAID to be "the new guy". even if they are ready and willing to learn, a lot of people don't want to deal with confrontation.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

oh and OP: Titan is harder than garuda. Ifrit is waaaaaaay easier and can almost certainly be cleared in the DF

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Depends on which job you're playing. As a tank, yes Ifrit is the easiest by a mile. But as a healer it can be the roughest of the 3, whereas Garuda can be solo healed while being in Cleric Stance half the time.

Every of the EX can be cleared in DF, if people have a idea of what to do.

I practice a lot for Healer at the moment, Moogle in Duty Roulette is quite a good example...

if you get ppl not knowing the fight, you get really really bad time, whereas a good group, you get enough time to cleric and do some extra damage...

Because hunting can get your ilvl up farily quickly, and people still having trouble, its not a ilvl problem at all. Getting to ilevel 90 which is uber absurd for the required for garuda ex, is super easy, even without hunting. The problem is with constant gamble of getting new players in DF all the time.

Until they make a "experienced duty finder" a modified version of Duty finder, Duty Finder will always be a learners or newbie finder. If you think you are going to q up for certain fights that have mechanics that must be learned and get a 1 or 2 shot, your setting your bar way to high. Garuda is no exception.

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

Every of the EX can be cleared in DF, if people have a idea of what to do.

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LOL, dude of course its possible to do with DF. But you have to understand that with duty finder which crosses servers, there is more of a chance of getting newbies (I know, because I tank and q frequently to know this). Almost every single q for Garuda ex has a new person. I don't know how, but the millions of times i have tried using duty finder, there is someone who has no idea what they are doing because they just started. Finally I just gave up and found a party using party finder instead with people knowing the fight. They need to fix this maybe in a way where they can add a duty finder for more experienced players. Otherwise you will get inexperienced players who are just starting out.

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Originally Posted by Eddard

Until they make a "experienced duty finder" a modified version of Duty finder, Duty Finder will always be a learners or newbie finder. If you think you are going to q up for certain fights that have mechanics that must be learned and get a 1 or 2 shot, your setting your bar way to high. Garuda is no exception.

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The thing is though, what would define experienced. As quite clearly having killed it once or even a few times by no means actually means experienced. People can have cleared something, heck they can even be geared in allagan pieces, and they can still make the most simplistic, rookie mistakes. Landslides off in titan, killing spiny in garuda, etc. There is not really any individual performance indicator which shows whether someone is experienced or not. Someone may have done it, someone may have the gear, but for all of that may have heavily relied on the help of others.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I don't think raising the ilvl would help. If you kill spiny you're still gonna die. If anything I feel they should add engame guildhests that explain primal/coil mechanics like the 1-50s do for dungeons, so players can recognize them and pick up the basic mechanics of the fight without having to watch a video.

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Additional guildhests with raiding tactics in mind most certainly could be a good addition. And hopefully is something SE will consider for future updates. Introducing raid like tactics to dungeon bosses in a more simplistic form however, may also be of help. For example with the titan landslide over the edge, you could think of a similar knockback on a dungeon boss into a poison pool around the field.

Easy Add a Stat that tracks peoples ability to move out of red circles, perform decent rotations, and other key parts of encounters. Then it averages these into a single stat. Lets call it Slevel. Add Slevel required field as an option in Party Finder.

Profit.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Easy Add a Stat that tracks peoples ability to move out of red circles, perform decent rotations, and other key parts of encounters. Then it averages these into a single stat. Lets call it Slevel. Add Slevel required field as an option in Party Finder.

Profit.

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It is not as simple as that really. Think T7. Someone might have killed a stoned add, just before shriek lands. One way to counter this is to let the person with the shriek directly jump in front of the boss to get cleaved damage or stand in the ring which is about to give damage. Both are intentionally taking damage, which would normally not be required. Both with such an automated system though would come down to taking negative points on such a stat, despite in essence it not even being you to blaim initially. After all, it may not have been you who killed the stoned golem.

Or on Titan Ex, you may have perfectly stacked with most players. You may all have dodged to the correct side as planned. Except for one. One person decided to move a split second early. Places the plume in the path where all others walk. The person making the mistake is out of all plumes, gets no negative point. Whereas those who did it flawless, get to suffer.



There truly is no profit to be found in any of that.

I'm at over 40 groups attempted Titan EX and all have died. Not 40 runs, 40 groups over 2 days. I think if there is a Primal EX roulette which takes into account how many failed runs you've had, and what HP % you've managed to get the primal to...and just put you in a group formed from players who have the clear flag. Ok, that's overkill, but I had to throw a hail mary lol. Just having a primal ex roulette would help casuals get past these primal quests I think. There's just no incentive for experienced players to do these fights anymore.

Why is a requirement "Must not be new"? If you're using the duty finder, at some point somebody has to be doing it for the first time. Instead of griping about it, make sure everyone gets on the same page when you start.

Or If your confident that the reasons you have failed in defeating is not related to your performance and knowledge of the fight you can also reach out to ppl forming weekly clear groups in PF. I was having rough time on my first ifrit ex clear in Df. But I knew my role exactly so I reached out to a person who started a mount farm, let him know that I knew my shit but just did not have any luck with groups. Guy was nice enough to give me a shot with a fail and your kicked ultimatum but got my foot in the door with a raiding LS invite at the end. So perhaps this may work for you as well. On Diablo server. I still see plenty of weekly farm groups, unsure about yours

Well... it was 1 AM and I was restless so I decided to try Gardura ex for the first time. We wiped 3 times but we won... I really have to thank the other healer in the group who gave me explicit instructions on what I was supposed to do. Even though the first two wipes were my fault NO one gave me crap about it and instead helped me through it.

Patience and understanding goes a long way, it could have very easily gone another way. Thanks for being awesome Menelwen!

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I don't think raising the ilvl would help. If you kill spiny you're still gonna die. If anything I feel they should add engame guildhests that explain primal/coil mechanics like the 1-50s do for dungeons, so players can recognize them and pick up the basic mechanics of the fight without having to watch a video.

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I have yet to see people actually follow the instructions in a Guildhest.

I can't wait for the sequel thread. "58 Attempts of Titan Ex - Remove Landslide or Fix"

I generally NEVER, EVER queue in the DF for HM Trials or other high end content without at least an i70 weapon and AF2 gear. I'm a myth-aholic after I hit 50, I skip all other equipment!

Roll Healz when requested/needed alot in trials

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Originally Posted by Nightcaste

I have yet to see people actually follow the instructions in a Guildhest.

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the last one with the giants where yo are supposed to protect the scrolls. Pretty hard not to follow the instructions : "kill"

Lmao. So much this.

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Originally Posted by heheesyo

Lmao. So much this.

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this is referring to the comment about the sequel thread about titan being broken. Stupid mobile...

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Originally Posted by Lebenoshl

I can't wait for the sequel thread. "58 Attempts of Titan Ex - Remove Landslide or Fix"

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Heck with landslide, remove weight of land!!! :P

Sorry. Raising the iLVL isn't going to help you win this fight.

It's the same thing with T5. Some people are still stuck on it because they don't understand how the gimmick works to win the fight.

All Ex Fights have gimmicks that need to be mastered and dealt with appropriately in order for the group to win.