1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

Great write up OP.

I'll tell you what happened with this patch.

Tanks need to actually tank now.

Healers need to actually heal now.

DPS can't just be mindless key spammers now.

All of this done together correctly = great game play that is at least somewhat challenging now and very fun and satisfying!

Thank you Yoshi!

OMG 30 SECONDS?!? :p

What's funny is if the devs left enmity/hate management exactly where it is now and refused to touch it again, people would adapt. And after they've adapted and the devs decided to tweak it again, people would piss and moan.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Accomplice is a rank 30 PGL skill... not LNC... :P

In all seriousness though, I don't believe they are necessary in all scenarios of tanking, however they serve as a great boon to one's ability to tank. If all it took to tank effectively was to rank GLA to 50 and be done, there'd be no long-term developmental goals.

The reason I ranked MRD and GLA up at all were to supplement my PGL tank with skills. The reason I ranked LNC was to get Invigorate II for my Archer. These goals keep me playing, trying out all the classes and discovering my unique playstyle.

My suggestions are in response to helping someone tank better - which with this system means accumulating hate more efficiently than the rest of the party's members.

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My mistake regarding Accomplice.

I, too, only leveled MRD to 30 for my GLA and CON/THM for Cure/Sac II. I just don't know if I'm on board with this idea in the long term. If all cross-class abilities were restricted to, say, half the rank cap, I'd be much happier. I'm not against leveling other classes for some long-term goals, in a general sense. Perhaps they also restrict abilities such that only DoWs can share among DoWs, and DoMs share DoMs (or something). Just an idea though. There are tons of potential solutions and I'm hopeful the development team finds a good one.

I don't like the idea of a MRD or LNC casting Cure anyway, but maybe I'm too much of role-specific purist :P

I believe long term goals and character development should come from content achievements and gear acquisition. Leveling all classes seems like a bit of a gimmick. I also think being forced to level all classes to play a particular class effectively alienates a huge portion of the population (for time constraints). Achieving r50 should feel like you're ready to tackle endgame content - not feeling overwhelmed when having to grind out 6 more classes to some arbitrary rank for one or two random abilities.

Let's also not forget that 1.18 is just the beginning of a series of patches that are changing this game.

I'm sure once jobs kick in and Paladin is made available, GLAs will be able to tank much more effectively without feeling the necessity to rank up every other class.

Also mages will be able to cast spells in passive mode, meaning constant MP regen.

It's important to see the direction - where the game is headed, rather than remain stuck on the current state, which still isn't nearly as bad as some people try to make it sound.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Let's also not forget that 1.18 is just the beginning of a series of patches that are changing this game.

I'm sure once jobs kick in and Paladin is made available, GLAs will be able to tank much more effectively without feeling the necessity to rank up every other class.

Also mages will be able to cast spells in passive mode, meaning constant MP regen.

It's important to see the direction - where the game is headed, rather than remain stuck on the current state, which still isn't nearly as bad as some people try to make it sound.

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Completely agree. This was the first patch I actually said to myself "Ok, I could see myself playing this game if we continue down this path". There are a few other key changes I want implemented, but they've all been discussed by the Producer already. We're not quite there yet, but I'm hopeful.

I read a post in another thread of someone comparing the Ogre/Batraal battles to Absolute Virtue. The patch has been out 5 days and players are already killing it with *relative* ease. Best example of hyperbole and overreaction I've seen in a long, long time. People love to complain and resist change, even when it's a clearly better option.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to reevaluate your opinion of SE's abiity to balance hate if you think telling everyone to not attack for 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight is in any way normal.

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You're right. Mindless zerging is perfectly normal. Which is why I generally stay away from most online games.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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That's hardly an argument against. Many of us are not thrilled by the way modern MMORPGs do things.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

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Gladiators are not going to be the main tank forever, nor conjurers the main healer. They will presumably be replaced by paladin and white mage, which will probably have better hate control and damage mitigation than a gladiator with appropriate cross-class skills, and more efficient healing skills than a suitably built conjurer. Yoshi said it was a risk to release content before completely overhauling the systems, and that is what we are seeing here. These new battles are designed for specialized characters, and neither conjurer nor gladiator are as specialized as they need to be for a lot of players to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Misha

You forgot to point out bloodletter has a badass animation now too :D ... just saying... cause I agree with everything else LoL (I know not technically a gameplay tweak but the Yoshi style ws's are ... O.O)

Oh and provoke now no longer instantly grabs hate from target just builds it, didn't see that directly mentioned (maybe missed it?!) Just wanted to point that out to people, no one seems to read the patch notes, even though you kinda covered that but just wanted to throw it out... otherwise great write up :)

Edit: Cover neeeeeeeds some love, should add that in <3 Hehe sorry xD

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What about Doomspike; I feel like a Spartan now!

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Based on what I read here, I'm not so sure about that.

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*highfive*

Anyone who says Archers were nerfed is pretty dumb. Our overall damage was buffed, and a tri-nocked Multishot is hitting harder than the previous tri-nocked Multishot, at least from what I've seen. Buffed triple Multi only brought Wolves down to 50% HP before. Now my buffed triple Multis take Wolves down to about 10-15% HP.

But that still doesn't mean I like the Multishot mechanic.

It's great in combat, most definitely. Plus our actual damage was buffed in general (including Light Shot). But out of combat, it's such a chore to hit it once, wait 15 seconds, then hit it again.

I'm just worried about our future as DD with a lack of a ranged AA if Haste becomes a big deal again.

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Originally Posted by Spitfire

What about Doomspike; I feel like a Spartan now!

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Yea I only expected the animation change for Chaos Thrust as shown in the video... but man Doomspike II looks awesome!

Leveling multiple classes is the way of FFXIV, always has been. They've toned it down a little bit as of late making certain abilities class specific. This game is still unique and isn't for everyone. Leveling to get those cross class abilities will give you an edge over those who simply level one to 50. Jobs will take that away to a degree but you'll be given job specific abilities, all you need to accomplish your role as that job though you'll still need to put a lot of time in to do the quests and whatnot to get all the gear/abilities.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

I believe long term goals and character development should come from content achievements and gear acquisition. Leveling all classes seems like a bit of a gimmick. I also think being forced to level all classes to play a particular class effectively alienates a huge portion of the population (for time constraints). Achieving r50 should feel like you're ready to tackle endgame content - not feeling overwhelmed when having to grind out 6 more classes to some arbitrary rank for one or two random abilities.

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This is one of my major concerns with the game currently, It really does feel as if to do one job particularly well im going to have to level up multiple classes just to be able to do that, very overwhelming indeed.

I do hope that in the future, possibly with the implementation of the job system that this problem will be resolved, it is a rather off putting element to the game, its definately scaring me off a bit as im sure it may well be for many other players and potential customers, as well as the lack of a good & fun levelling experience.

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Originally Posted by Rimmer

This is one of my major concerns with the game currently, It really does feel as if to do one job particularly well im going to have to level up multiple classes just to be able to do that, very overwhelming indeed.

I do hope that in the future, possibly with the implementation of the job system that this problem will be resolved, it is a rather off putting element to the game, its definately scaring me off a bit as im sure it may well be for many other players and potential customers, as well as the lack of a good & fun levelling experience.

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Every FF game with a job/class system has been this way. They all made use of cross classing to get the most out of the game. This isn't new. If that scares people, than maybe this isn't the game for them.

I wiped tears today and got used to changes fast. Patch 1-18 was great step and I <3 the way it aims. It has its own flaws, I mentioned these already. So time to step forward too.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Leveling multiple classes is the way of FFXIV, always has been. They've toned it down a little bit as of late making certain abilities class specific. This game is still unique and isn't for everyone. Leveling to get those cross class abilities will give you an edge over those who simply level one to 50. Jobs will take that away to a degree but you'll be given job specific abilities, all you need to accomplish your role as that job though you'll still need to put a lot of time in to do the quests and whatnot to get all the gear/abilities.

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Of course the cross-class abilities are the way of FFXIV - nobody is disputing that. A lot of people are discouraged by it though and I think that's fair for people to hold that opinion. Nobody can say whether that's the way it always has been and always will be. It's the part in italics players are concerned about.

@ mysterytaru: I played and loved the system in FFXI. Cross-classing is not the issue. It's the obscene amount of cross-classing players are concerned with. I think everyone could live with a subjob or two. But leveling all classes to cap seems absurd (which is currently the stress).

To each their own, but I think the blanket statements say "it's a part of the game, deal with it" are uncalled for and potentially untrue. So much in this game is changing, nobody can be sure until information about this is released (I think patch 1.20?). Imagine people had the same mindset towards anima teleportation, the armoury system, the leve system, etc. They were part of the game, but we didn't have to deal with it. This is left to be seen regarding cross-classing.

What I mean by stating that it's a part of the game is that that is how the game was built, structured and intended to be played initially. I never said it was going to be like that forever, in fact I even mentioned how jobs are taking that away for party play. If you play a class, you're going to want to cross class. If you play a job you'll probably be okay with just the job. Keep in mind though the distinct possibility (as mentioned in the famitsu translation) of cross class jobs too. There's a reason you can level all classes on one character.

For now those who put in the extra time and effort to have those cross class abilities are better for it. They should and do have a distinct advantage.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

@ mysterytaru: I played and loved the system in FFXI. Cross-classing is not the issue. It's the obscene amount of cross-classing players are concerned with. I think everyone could live with a subjob or two. But leveling all classes to cap seems absurd (which is currently the stress).

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No one is saying level everything to cap. From what I've seen, *most* of the skills people are being asked to use are within the first 30 lvls of a class. This is very much akin to subjobs. By the time I stopped playing XI (second Abyssea pack), almost everyone was expected to have at least 4 different subs for any given class. The only real difference between XI and XIV is that in this you're not limited to skills of optimal rank equaling less than half your current class.

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Every FF game with a job/class system has been this way. They all made use of cross classing to get the most out of the game. This isn't new. If that scares people, than maybe this isn't the game for them.

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Cross classing itself isn't the issue I see. I think it's more that if you "need" to rank a class up to play the class you want then it's a problem (And saying they did it in XI doesn't change the fact that the system could be better in XIV I mean that's what were going for right a better game?).

The way I "think" it should work would be that if you want to play a tank job you level up your tank class. You can then tank but people will need to do things like wait 30 seconds/hold back on DPS. Every class you rank up after your initial tank class should ease the fights your doing. So if you rank up con suddenly you can heal your self for more enmity and DD can output more damage when they start attacking. If you rank up some other class that gives you the ability to gather a lot of hate instantly (Similar to a provoke but I can't think of a skill that does this) then your party would be able to start attacking from the beginning of the fight. etc. etc. making it easier for you to tank and/or the fight being completed faster

Instead of if you don't have 1,2 or even 3 other classes ranked up you just won't be able to be a tank.

Also I would like to say that just because something can be completed doesn't mean it's not broken (In this case I don't think it is broken though). Ex. People were able to beat pre-pre-(Is there another pre in here?)patch COP missions. Just because people were able to beat it doesn't mean it wasn't broken or isn't overpowered.

I'd say over all the update was far on the side of good but it wasn't to the point of perfection.

I just think the cross classing in this game is a little skewed, to be a tank takes quite a bit of cross classing but you want to be a dd mage, or healing mage, it doesn't take cross classing at all unless you really wanted both cures (everyone does)

@Arcell: I agree with most of what you're saying - I think it's just too early to know where we'll be in 6 months. Yoshi mentioned changes to classes (redistributing abilities), jobs that will be used primarily in parties, etc. So we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't think that's the "reason you can level all classes on one character" though. You could level them all in FFXI and the cross-classing was nowhere near this demanding. But like I said, I don't mind cross-classing, it's the degree to which we can do it now that concerns me.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

No one is saying level everything to cap. From what I've seen, *most* of the skills people are being asked to use are within the first 30 lvls of a class. This is very much akin to subjobs. By the time I stopped playing XI (second Abyssea pack), almost everyone was expected to have at least 4 different subs for any given class. The only real difference between XI and XIV is that in this you're not limited to skills of optimal rank equaling less than half your current class.

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This is just flatly not true. I would actually say *most* of the skills are above r30. Cure III, CON 48. Sac III, THM 48. Taunt II, PUG 40. Defender II, MRD 48. There are a couple abilities in the 30s and 40s for LNC and ARC that would be "useful" for a tank as well, but I'll leave them out because the player base hasn't deemed them necessary, yet. For now, some of those listed are perceived as more "required" than others but the point stands - it's well past r20 or r30.

Edit: @ the bold part of the quote. That is a *massive* difference. That can't be overstated. Leveling a class to 25 is a world away from 50. And it's not even the only difference. In FFXI you could only activate one subjob at a time. So in FFXI, if a subjob only had one potentially useful ability but it didn't outweigh your other subjob's utility, you didn't need to level it. in FFXIV, *every* ability that has any use at all requires you level that class.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

@Arcell: I agree with most of what you're saying - I think it's just too early to know where we'll be in 6 months. Yoshi mentioned changes to classes (redistributing abilities), jobs that will be used primarily in parties, etc. So we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't think that's the "reason you can level all classes on one character" though. You could level them all in FFXI and the cross-classing was nowhere near this demanding. But like I said, I don't mind cross-classing, it's the degree to which we can do it now that concerns me.



This is just flatly not true. I would actually say *most* of the skills are above r30. Cure III, CON 48. Sac III, THM 48. Taunt II, PUG 40. Defender II, MRD 48. There are a couple abilities in the 30s and 40s for LNC and ARC that would be "useful" for a tank as well, but I'll leave them out because the player base hasn't deemed them necessary, yet. For now, some of those listed are perceived as more "required" than others but the point stands - it's well past r20 or r30.

Edit: @ the bold part of the quote. That is a *massive* difference. That can't be overstated. Leveling a class to 25 is a world away from 50.

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That's 4 skills focusing on the needs of GLA and THM. That's hardly the majority of needed cross classing in the game.

First, I'm using tanking as an example. I thought that was clear.

Second, let's say I need 4 cross-class abilities from THM in order to tank on GLA effectively. They come at ranks 2, 4, 6, and 48. Guess which rank I need to get to? The *only* thing that matters is the rank of the highest ability. I thought everyone could at least agree on that....

The thing is we are assuming each class had a definitive party role. Each class has the ability to do certain things more effectively than others, but for the most part all the classes can do anything in this game.

Ranking GLA to 50 to tank is not a complete goal. Classes are just different proficiency sets with weapons and tools in this game.

This is why the dev team is introducing Jobs. Jobs are essentially roles for a party - enhancing the party gameplay.

Until we get Jobs to give us bonus skills that maximize our proficiency in them, it is up to us to gain experience with a variety of weapons and tools in order to more effectively tank, DD, heal.

It's an assumption to say that ranking GLA makes you an effective tank, or that ranking LNC makes you an effective DD.

Classes are not jobs.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

First, I'm using tanking as an example. I thought that was clear.

Second, let's say I need 4 cross-class abilities from THM in order to tank on GLA effectively. They come at ranks 2, 4, 6, and 48. Guess which rank I need to get to? The *only* thing that matters is the rank of the highest ability. I thought everyone could at least agree on that....

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The problem is, it's not *required* to tank effectively. It makes it take less effort, but it's hardly required. It doesn't matter anyway as all these complaints are based on ignoring that 1.18 is not the end of the changes to the battle system or classes.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

The problem is, it's not *required* to tank effectively. It makes it take less effort, but it's hardly required.

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Try tanking on any class with only their native abilities. Or make a list of abilities you would tank with on GLA or MRD or PUG without cross-classing at all. You plainly could not tank anything of significance.

This is getting pedantic and strawman-ish.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The thing is we are assuming each class had a definitive party role. Each class has the ability to do certain things more effectively than others, but for the most part all the classes can do anything in this game.

This is why the dev team is introducing Jobs. Jobs are essentially roles for a party - enhancing the party gameplay.

It's an assumption to say that ranking GLA makes you an effective tank, or that ranking LNC makes you an effective DD.

Classes are not jobs.

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If you are right, and jobs turn out to be as you say, I will have absolutely no problem with cross-classing. But as it stands, the class system is all we have. And like I said way back in my first post, I'm fine with the system for now, as long as we know changes are coming (which we do, just not definitive ones).

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Try tanking on any class with only their native abilities. Or make a list of abilities you would tank with on GLA or MRD or PUG without cross-classing at all. You plainly could not tank anything of significance.

This is getting pedantic and strawman-ish.

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MRD and PGL were only main tanks in Tanaka's version of the game. That game is gone. Dead. As for GLA, I didn't say you didn't have to cross class. I said it's not required to get the higher Rank version of some abilities. They make it less effort, but are by no means required.

The introduction of Jobs may alleviate the need to do as much cross-class ranking up. If being a Paladin eliminates lots of cross-class skills from being equipped but still is a better tank, then suddenly those cross-over combinations aren't as useful to rank up any more.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

MRD and PGL were only main tanks in Tanaka's version of the game. That game is gone. Dead. As for GLA, I didn't say you didn't have to cross class. I said it's not required to get the higher Rank version of some abilities. They make it less effort, but are by no means required.

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I will agree with your last comment, sort of. MRDs and PUGs are tanking Deepvoid Slave, but I see your point.

As far as getting higher rank abilities, they aren't required right now. But as far as game design goes, you either design content that is hard for a player with all cross-class abilities or you make it hard for someone who doesn't (or somewhere in between). One event can't be hard for both types of characters. I think going down this entirely open-ended freedom is going to be a source of a lot of trouble in that regard. But as we know, lots of changes are coming to class abilities, ability distribution, and jobs. So we'll just have to see where everything lands.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

If you are right, and jobs turn out to be as you say, I will have absolutely no problem with cross-classing. But as it stands, the class system is all we have. And like I said way back in my first post, I'm fine with the system for now, as long as we know changes are coming (which we do, just not definitive ones).

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This game as a whole is still a work in progress, and the changes brought with 1.18 are in no way complete changes. They are the essential groundwork for 1.19 and 1.20 to say the least.

I will concur that cross-classing leads to a very large advantage at this point in the game, arguably more than it should, but again if you gather all the information we were given about how jobs will work it becomes more or less clear that becoming effective at party roles without needing to cross-class is something they will effectively introduce.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This game as a whole is still a work in progress, and the changes brought with 1.18 are in no way complete changes. They are the essential groundwork for 1.19 and 1.20 to say the least.

I will concur that cross-classing leads to a very large advantage at this point in the game, arguably more than it should, but again if you gather all the information we were given about how jobs will work it becomes more or less clear that becoming effective at party roles without needing to cross-class is something they will effectively introduce.

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Agreed. And I'm hopeful.

I guess to wrap it up, the concerns I had with the enmity system (currently) is the source of hate most tanks were relying on. But as I said then, I agree with your overall sentiments. I'm optimistic of the coming changes and can more than live with the current system, for now. As long as people are aware it's a work-in-progress and not a finished system.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

As long as people are aware it's a work-in-progress and not a finished system.

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Quoted for truth. This point is absolutely key.

Good points OP, sadly when this game started it held players hand, now its time to let it go, but players are too weak to survive and adapt on their own. Similar things gonna happen to Anima, already happen to gil, now enmity, and MP management.

When a challenge is thrown at you, try to over come the obstacle and do the best you can. Not get on forum and asking DEV for a hand to hold.

Patch 1.18 Filter of the weak.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Of course the cross-class abilities are the way of FFXIV - nobody is disputing that. A lot of people are discouraged by it though and I think that's fair for people to hold that opinion. Nobody can say whether that's the way it always has been and always will be. It's the part in italics players are concerned about.

@ mysterytaru: I played and loved the system in FFXI. Cross-classing is not the issue. It's the obscene amount of cross-classing players are concerned with. I think everyone could live with a subjob or two. But leveling all classes to cap seems absurd (which is currently the stress).

To each their own, but I think the blanket statements say "it's a part of the game, deal with it" are uncalled for and potentially untrue. So much in this game is changing, nobody can be sure until information about this is released (I think patch 1.20?). Imagine people had the same mindset towards anima teleportation, the armoury system, the leve system, etc. They were part of the game, but we didn't have to deal with it. This is left to be seen regarding cross-classing.

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if someone levels a lot of jobs to 50 he/she SHOULD be better then someone who did not. the more time and work you put in should be rewarded. you have the option of doing it as well but you also have the option of not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

When a challenge is thrown at you, try to over come the obstacle and do the best you can. Not get on forum and asking DEV for a hand to hold.

Patch 1.18 Filter of the weak.

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Agreed, however I wouldn't go as far as call it a filter of the weak. That's a tad... aggressive lol.

To me it essentially gives players more room to improve and display their skill, and have it pay off in the end with their friends and shell-mates appreciating their hard work. It gives players room for progress. A challenge to rise to.

FFXIV was lacking that more than anything.

What I believe is happening mostly is that due to the "easy-mode" status the game had before, almost anyone was amazing at whatever they would strive to accomplish. Now with the introduction of a necessary level of difficulty, a lot of players who believe they were amazing tanks/mages/DPS find that what supposedly made them amazing does not work anymore. It takes effort to reach a level of effectiveness they previously had almost subconsciously.

I prided myself in being a very good tank. Some would say I had delusions of grandeur, stating I was my shell's main tank. With 1.18 I realized how I used to not have to do much at all to hold hate and tank, and that the skills I had did all the work for me.

I have since embraced that change, and am now both researching and working on improving my tanking to be the best it can be.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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The thing I don't understand is this: how is it fun or strategic if the tank doesn't have to actually work hard to gain/keep hate above all others? Say, if provoke remained the way it used to be where you get instant hate no matter what. Then it just becomes a mater of how fast your cooldown is on abilities similar to that.

The way it is now [and has been in xi that I liked, but is irrelevant], not only does the tank have to work at keeping the mob's attention, but the rest of the party has to also manage their damage or healing output as to not disrupt the flow of battle. It's a very nice system that keeps everyone working together. If your ARC wants to go guns blazing and ignore whats going on with the rest of the group, he'll die, and maybe take some others with him if what you're fighting happens to have some devastating AoEs. It really shows who knows how to play from who doesn't when you don't rely solely on your tank with the insta-win button.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Agreed, however I wouldn't go as far as call it a filter of the weak. That's a tad... aggressive lol.

To me it essentially gives players more room to improve and display their skill, and have it pay off in the end with their friends and shell-mates appreciating their hard work. It gives players room for progress. A challenge to rise to.

FFXIV was lacking that more than anything.

What I believe is happening mostly is that due to the "easy-mode" status the game had before, almost anyone was amazing at whatever they would strive to accomplish. Now with the introduction of a necessary level of difficulty, a lot of players who believe they were amazing tanks/mages/DPS find that what supposedly made them amazing does not work anymore. It takes effort to reach a level of effectiveness they previously had almost subconsciously.

I prided myself in being a very good tank. Some would say I had delusions of grandeur, stating I was my shell's main tank. With 1.18 I realized how I used to not have to do much at all to hold hate and tank, and that the skills I had did all the work for me.

I have since embraced that change, and am now both researching and working on improving my tanking to be the best it can be.

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i guess calling it "weak" is kinda aggressive but it was aimed at those whiners on the forums. Some people in my shell are asking tips and strats from more experienced players in my shell who adapted the system, watching this actually makes me happy, because they are trying to improve instead of complaining.

If players cant even adapt to small basic battle changes like this, idk what they gonna do in/to this game.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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That's a pretty bold statement to make unless you know how every other player plays every other "modern MMORPG". I'm gonna not go out on a limb by guessing that you don't.

As it stands, yes it is employed in other MMORPGs, as I've seen it implemented in a few of them in my time playing (Lineage 2, EQ2 and FFXI to be exact). Wouldn't be at all surprised to see it used in others as well.

Regardless, the bigger point is the tactic of waiting a given amount of time for the tank to build aggro is a player-chosen tactic. It's not imposed by the game. People can (and do) develop and prefer other tactics in a given situation. Allowing the tank a "head-start" on building hate is simply one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This. Thank you.

I was honestly starting to freak out a little bit with everyone taking the number so literally.

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Not surprising to me in the least...

It's all too common in debate/discussion for people to avoid engaging in the larger point being made, by putting their focus, instead, on an individual detail. In this way, they try to change the debate to be about the individual detail, which may be an "easier target" for them, rather than addressing the bigger picture, which they can't so easily (if at all) counter.

It's a kind of red herring attempt, which you basically thwarted by clarifying your use of that number, and not taking the bait :).

I don't think the system is perfect, but what in life is? Games like this are always changing. No one in here knows what the perfect game should be and neither does SE. What I can be confident saying is, I am having a LOT more fun in this game than before. Even something small like settlements has added to my enjoyment, let alone the awesome challenging dungeons. Auto attack has been awesome as well. As for hate, it just is another element into the strategy of battle, than really wasn't there before because nothing we fought ever lasted very long. Cheers to the OP and Cheers to 1.19 and beyond.