Yoshi-P got it wrong. The mind of a win trader and a solution to win trading

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

Going back to what I said before about queue times. Being someone who plays in off peak, it is very hard to find a group of 8 people who even want to pvp.

Improving solo queue times is really the only way to go. You could just get a group of 4 pre-made and the queue against the duty finder, but pre-made queue times are about 10 times longer with queue times.

---

The problem is you can't just wave a magic wand and make it instant queue. It requires 8 people to hold a pvp match. The one and only way to improve that is to get people to actually enjoy pvp'ing. Win trading and botting isn't making people enjoy the experience. In fact the only thing win trading is good for is getting the animal gear and to say different is fooling yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

But, like, don't you want to play for fun? I mean, isn't that the whole point of playing a game? I understand if you have a full Rank 40 vs Rank 1, yeah they'll get annihilated. But I doubt your win trading groups are that far apart in terms of Rank/Gear. And as a lot of us who do PvP will know that not always the best geared team wins.

Also


Sadly that's just down to a lack of interest in PvP. We can only hope that Frontlines gets people into doing regular matches too. Or at best, Frontlines is so good that it replaces Wolves Den altogether as the go to place for PvP.

---

Win trade groups take people of all ranks, 0-40. So you will often get a mix of rank 5s, 35s, 27,s etc all in the one team. Yes, you would play for fun. But once again, people do not enjoy losing 90% of the time for 20 matches+. Winning gives people enjoyment. If I could find 4 people who enjoyed losing, that would be awesome. I would play against them all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

The problem is you can't just wave a magic wand and make it instant queue. It requires 8 people to hold a pvp match. The one and only way to improve that is to get people to actually enjoy pvp'ing. Win trading and botting isn't making people enjoy the experience. In fact the only thing win trading is good for is getting the animal gear and to say different is fooling yourself.

---

At the moment, they fixed queue times to be the following:

4v4
1 range dps, 1 melee dps, 1 healer, 1 tank
Average rank must be within 3 (or 5?)
You can only be matched with the same people of your data centre

Essentially, yes there are very little people doing pvp. But they have set the criteria for a match to be so particular, it is impossible to find other people as well.

What might be better is if they did the above, but if no match was found to slowly widen the search criteria until it gets someone. Right now, it's like:
No matches? Keep waiting until you get one, which may be in 5 minutes or may be in 2 hours. Enjoy your uncertain wait time.

Honestly, most people farming pvp don't even care if it's an even match. They just want to get in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

Win trade groups take people of all ranks, 0-40. So you will often get a mix of rank 5s, 35s, 27,s etc all in the one team. Yes, you would play for fun. But once again, people do not enjoy losing 90% of the time for 20 matches+. Winning gives people enjoyment. If I could find 4 people who enjoyed losing, that would be awesome. I would play against them all day.

---

You say winning gives people enjoyment, but you don't even try. You'd rather have no fun whatsoever, with no potential for fun, than at least try to win.

I don't know, to me it just sounds like you want a cheap/quick route to the amazing looking PvP gear. Just my opinion.

Well then it sounds like Frontlines is actually fixing some of the issues you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

You say winning gives people enjoyment, but you don't even try. You'd rather have no fun whatsoever, with no potential for fun, than at least try to win.

I don't know, to me it just sounds like you want a cheap/quick route to the amazing looking PvP gear. Just my opinion.

---

Whoa whoa, hold your horses there. Who said I haven't tried? Let's not get personal here.

Sure have tried. Took about 30 minutes to get a group together. We played about 7 or 8 matches. One team lost maybe 6 of them and then 2 decided to leave.

Back to another half hour of arranging teams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well then it sounds like Frontlines is actually fixing some of the issues you have.

---

I really really hope you're right. I want to read the patch notes on what it will be like so badly right now.

But I'm concerned then that wolves den will be shoved under the carpet.

On another note about win trading, you must have found a group of players within your server that want to PvP during times you play, right? Why not make a LS of those players and start your own fight club as it were?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

I really really hope you're right. I want to read the patch notes on what it will be like so badly right now.

But I'm concerned then that wolves den will be shoved under the carpet.

---

Don't know. But I can say WD will still be ranked that requires gear so those hardcore pvp'er can test themselves in a team deathmatch.

Yeah but you say stuff like...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

people do not enjoy losing 90% of the time

---

Erm, isn't that the whole game though? I had a quick look at your character out of curiosity and you've got a High Allagan Caster's mask, so you've beaten Turn 7 at least. Are you trying to say that your group just ploughed through Turn 6 and 7 one shot? And how are 8 and 9 going? If you spend an hour or so wiping are you going to quit Coil because you don't like to lose? Losing is a big part of this game, it's going to happen. As I said before, it just seems like you'd rather take the cheap route to the nice gear rather than work for it honestly, as you would then have to play the percentages which may include *gasp* losing. It's much easier to have a group of 8 constantly trade wins for a pile of pretty looking gear that they will never use other than to show off that they're at a rank they don't deserve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

On another note about win trading, you must have found a group of players within your server that want to PvP during times you play, right? Why not make a LS of those players and start your own fight club as it were?

---

No, I suggested they actually PvP with the people they trade wins with and they shot that idea down. Clearly that was lunacy.

Nothing else for me to say on the matter I think, it's just a shame that what you do is allowed rather than just be "against the spirit of the game." I can only hope and prey that this doesn't doom Frontlines with all the over-geared win traders wiping out lower ranked honest players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

I can only hope and prey that this doesn't doom Frontlines with all the over-geared win traders wiping out lower ranked honest players.

---

Shouldn't. Morale doesn't matter and all the gear is going to be level sync'ed. Seems like the underdog will have the advantage of experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Shouldn't. Morale doesn't matter and all the gear is going to be level sync'ed. Seems like the underdog will have the advantage of experience.

---

Didn't know about the level sync, that's good news at least :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Yeah but you say stuff like...



Erm, isn't that the whole game though? I had a quick look at your character out of curiosity and you've got a High Allagan Caster's mask, so you've beaten Turn 7 at least. Are you trying to say that your group just ploughed through Turn 6 and 7 one shot? And how are 8 and 9 going? If you spend an hour or so wiping are you going to quit Coil because you don't like to lose? Losing is a big part of this game, it's going to happen. As I said before, it just seems like you'd rather take the cheap route to the nice gear rather than work for it honestly, as you would then have to play the percentages which may include *gasp* losing. It's much easier to have a group of 8 constantly trade wins for a pile of pretty looking gear that they will never use other than to show off that they're at a rank they don't deserve.




No, I suggested they actually PvP with the people they trade wins with and they shot that idea down. Clearly that was lunacy.

Nothing else for me to say on the matter I think, it's just a shame that what you do is allowed rather than just be "against the spirit of the game." I can only hope and prey that this doesn't doom Frontlines with all the over-geared win traders wiping out lower ranked honest players.

---

There is a difference of losing over and over and improving compared to losing over and over with no chance of victory.

I wouldn't be attempting turn 6 and 7 with say, a group of ilvl 70 gear. Because that would just be dumb.

In any case, I don't want to have to organise a group together to play 4v4. I would much rather solo queue, play a few games quickly and efficiently. I'm a casual. Due to queue times, my pvp activity is strictly limited to weekends. Would be really nice to come home from work, queue in DF, play a some matches and head to sleep.

I am making open suggestions to improve the pvp scene by suggesting queue times are a serious problem.

Maybe you should too rather than try and personally attack my character?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

There is a difference of losing over and over and improving compared to losing over and over with no chance of victory.

I wouldn't be attempting turn 6 and 7 with say, a group of ilvl 70 gear. Because that would just be dumb.

In any case, I don't want to have to organise a group together to play 4v4. I would much rather solo queue, play a few games quickly and efficiently. I'm a casual. Due to queue times, my pvp activity is strictly limited to weekends. Would be really nice to come home from work, queue in DF, play a some matches and head to sleep.

I am making open suggestions to improve the pvp scene by suggesting queue times are a serious problem.

Maybe you should too rather than try and personally attack my character?

---

I'm not attacking you at all, I'm just giving an opinion based off the information you are giving. Clearly you're yet another player in this game who is far too sensitive and thinks everything is an "attack."

You say you're making suggestions, like what? In your OP you say the problem is queue times...well yeah, we all know that. That's not a suggestion. A suggestion would be you actually formulating an ideas to get people interested and excited about doing PvP, making suggestions how to entice non-PvP players into trying it, finding ways to greatly reduce those queue times.

Also, lets highlight this again...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

I wouldn't be attempting turn 6 and 7 with say, a group of ilvl 70 gear. Because that would just be dumb.

---

Well, that's exactly the way solo PvP players feel. Want to know a big reason why the PvP queues suck? Because of people who cheat to rank up such as yourself. What is the point in me queuing solo in my i70 PvP gear if I know I'm just going to get smashed by a group of people who have cheated their way to BiS PvP gear. Your cheating (and yes it is cheating no matter what the Devs say) is as a big a problem as all the others.

Maybe you should actually have a think about some of what I've said rather than just throwing a stroppy and crying every time you perceive a comment as a personal attack.

Why I'm turned off by the current PVP:

long Que
1 shot round, then done, proceed to reque
over before you know it
small reward

I dont mind the deathmatch at all, but its short, you have to
get in line again, and it just repeats. I would have liked multiple
rounds with a larger reward.

I'm hoping frontlines addresses some of that. 30 min fights, respawning
multiple objectives etc.

I also don't mind morale at all. you do pvp stuff, and get pvp specific
gear, that makes sense to me, but SE does need to be careful in the
despairity becoming too high between players wanting to try out the content.
Always something to keep in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Maybe you should actually have a think about some of what I've said rather than just throwing a stroppy and crying every time you perceive a comment as a personal attack.

---

I rest my case.

Also, if I suggest that pvp queue times are terrible. Isn't there only one solution? To reduce pvp queue times?

Apologies, I didn't think I needed to state that. Just for you, I will put it on the record.

PVP queue times need to be reduced. Now I'm not guru and matchmaking algorithms, so I choose to leave it to the community for input to fix this. That is why I chose to post this on a forum and not on say, a blog post.

Thank you for your time, Tegan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volsung

Why I'm turned off by the current PVP:

long Que
1 shot round, then done, proceed to reque
over before you know it
small reward

I dont mind the deathmatch at all, but its short, you have to
get in line again, and it just repeats. I would have liked multiple
rounds with a larger reward.

I'm hoping frontlines addresses some of that. 30 min fights, respawning
multiple objectives etc.

I also don't mind morale at all. you do pvp stuff, and get pvp specific
gear, that makes sense to me, but SE does need to be careful in the
despairity becoming too high between players wanting to try out the content.
Always something to keep in mind.

---

You have summed up all my main concerns. Agree 100%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

I rest my case.

Also, if I suggest that pvp queue times are terrible. Isn't there only one solution? To reduce pvp queue times?

Apologies, I didn't think I needed to state that. Just for you, I will put it on the record.

PVP queue times need to be reduced. Now I'm not guru and matchmaking algorithms, so I choose to leave it to the community for input to fix this. That is why I chose to post this on a forum and not on say, a blog post.

Thank you for your time, Tegan.

---

Well, and this will probably be the first comment that is an actual attack, clearly you're not that bright. PvP queue times are long because no one is playing! It's nothing to do with algorithms you can't make a 4 vs 4 if only 7 people are queued.

Sorry, I will put this on record just for you. As clearly you don't understand despite nearly every person in the thread saying it.

4 + 4 = 8. Which means if under 8 people are queued, no match. That means if 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 people are queued, no match. Is that still too complicated for you? Well take an hour or two to try and figure it out while you're cheating your way up the rank ladder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Well, and this will probably be the first comment that is an actual attack, clearly you're not that bright. PvP queue times are long because no one is playing! It's nothing to do with algorithms you can't make a 4 vs 4 if only 7 people are queued.

Sorry, I will put this on record just for you. As clearly you don't understand despite nearly every person in the thread saying it.

4 + 4 = 8. Which means if under 8 people are queued, no match. That means if 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 people are queued, no match. Is that still too complicated for you? Well take an hour or two to try and figure it out while you're cheating your way up the rank ladder.

---

I wish that was the case. Sadly, that is not how pvp matchmaking is right now. It's not that there are no people queuing. There are people queuing, but the system will not allow us to be matched due to the current matching criteria.

Also, please stop questioning my intelligence. It is irrelevant to this discussion and hurts my feelings.

Have to agree 100% with the people who say that the big problem is that the PVP isn't fun. More fun would mean more people queuing which would mean faster matches. Hopefully frontlines delivers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

I wish that was the case. Sadly, that is not how pvp matchmaking is right now. It's not that there are no people queuing. There are people queuing, but the system will not allow us to be matched due to the current matching criteria.

---

I've never heard this but if that's true that's very interesting, link?

Actually, assuming it's 50/50 win/loss it's 2842 games to go from 0-40. A much lower number of 1895 wins if 100% success rate. Meaning if you're bad, it's flip of the coin as to whether you'll win. If you're good at pvp, you're more likely to win, meaning less games. It takes exactly 116700 exp to go from 0-40. You get 60 exp per win, 20 per loss. This is basic math.

Average queue times for solo queue is around 5 minutes at peak hours if you queue all languages, all 3 level categories. Average match time is 2 minutes. This means 19894 minutes (331 hours) if you're bad, and you're leaving win/loss ratio to the RNG of team allotment, or 13265 minutes (221 hours) if you're somehow amazing enough to win 100% of your matches. This averages out to 2-3 months.

You bring up a point about development cycle, and there's something very important that you missed. New content isn't developed with the thought of a "new player" in mind, it's developed with the thought of current players who are already maxed. The main target of the i100 gear aren't rank 0's, but rank 30's who enjoy pvping. Considering that, it takes 66900 exp to level from 30-40. That's only 1672 matches assuming 50/50 win loss, or 1115 wins. Assuming 50/50, that's 195 hours, or 4 hours a day is 48 days. 1.5 months. So yes, on a 3 month development cycle, it takes 1.5 months to finish all the new content they developed. That is perfectly reasonable, and that is how game updates are designed. Afterwards new content is released. If i110 gear comes out, we can assume (with frontlines) it will take 1.5 months (or half the development time) for casual players to get that as well. It makes sense.

Although I empathize with the difficulty of pvp, your blatant misrepresentation of fact-checkable information to garner sympathy is (to be blunt) pathetic. To say that it takes 3000-4000 matches is plain wrong. To ignore the fact that new content is geared towards people who are already maxed out is misleading; when new content is released, we aren't suddenly vaulted back to level 0; we save all the progress we made. It makes 100% sense that it takes 1.5 months to finish new content, and 3 months to develop new content. I have no problem with win trading, but skewing facts and using strawman arguments to garner support is despicable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VinhSama

Actually, assuming it's 50/50 win/loss it's 2842 games to go from 0-40. A much lower number of 1895 wins if 100% success rate. Meaning if you're bad, it's flip of the coin as to whether you'll win. If you're good at pvp, you're more likely to win, meaning less games. It takes exactly 116700 exp to go from 0-40. You get 60 exp per win, 20 per loss. This is basic math.

Average queue times for solo queue is around 5 minutes at peak hours if you queue all languages, all 3 level categories. Average match time is 2 minutes. This means 19894 minutes (331 hours) if you're bad, and you're leaving win/loss ratio to the RNG of team allotment, or 13265 minutes (221 hours) if you're somehow amazing enough to win 100% of your matches. This averages out to 2-3 months.

---

Curious. Did you mean 2-3 months with a 100% win rate or 50% win rate? Whilst, I haven't looked up your calculations to confirm that is true, I am taking your word for it. However, I strongly disagree with your estimated queue times. It is hardly ever that short a wait for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VinhSama

Although I empathize with the difficulty of pvp, your blatant misrepresentation of fact-checkable information to garner sympathy is (to be blunt) pathetic. To say that it takes 3000-4000 matches is plain wrong. To ignore the fact that new content is geared towards people who are already maxed out is misleading; when new content is released, we aren't suddenly vaulted back to level 0; we save all the progress we made. It makes 100% sense that it takes 1.5 months to finish new content, and 3 months to develop new content. I have no problem with win trading, but skewing facts and using strawman arguments is is despicable.

---

I do apologise if I 'misrepresented' facts. These were rough figures that I were hearing from other players and over time I probably forgot the details. Thanks for confirming this to me. I have updated the main post. However, I do believe my rough figures were close enough to the mark so as to not be misleading.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VinhSama

You bring up a point about development cycle, and there's something very important that you missed. New content isn't developed with the thought of a "new player" in mind, it's developed with the thought of current players who are already maxed. The main target of the i100 gear aren't rank 0's, but rank 30's who enjoy pvping. Considering that, it takes 66900 exp to level from 30-40. That's only 1672 matches assuming 50/50 win loss, or 1115 wins. Assuming 50/50, that's 195 hours, or 4 hours a day is 48 days. 1.5 months. So yes, on a 3 month development cycle, it takes 1.5 months to finish all the new content they developed. That is perfectly reasonable, and that is how game updates are designed. Afterwards new content is released. If i110 gear comes out, we can assume (with frontlines) it will take 1.5 months (or half the development time) for casual players to get that as well. It makes sense.

---

I assume you are using those estimations with a 5 minute queue timer? Sadly, during peak hours that I play, it is hardly ever 5 minutes. If you are getting 5 minute queue timers or less, please tell me your world you play in and the time frame you play at so I can join you.

I have like 5 pvp wins and 10 losses and I have fought a whole party of animal gear people so no way this is true.

[QUOTE=VinhSama;2224156]Actually, assuming it's 50/50 win/loss it's 2842 games to go from 0-40. A much lower number of 1895 wins if 100% success rate. Meaning if you're bad, it's flip of the coin as to whether you'll win. If you're good at pvp, you're more likely to win, meaning less games. It takes exactly 116700 exp to go from 0-40. You get 60 exp per win, 20 per loss. This is basic math.[quote] I get 100 for win and 10 for loss so nice random 60/20 number there.

1) Why would I que all 3 categories if I don't have an pvp gear that's just suicide, so lets restrict to no morale gear*

2) "Average queue times for solo queue is around 5 minutes at peak hours if you queue all languages, all 3 level categories. Average match time is 2 minutes. This means 19894 minutes (331 hours) if you're bad, and you're leaving win/loss ratio to the RNG of team allotment, or 13265 minutes (221 hours) if you're somehow amazing enough to win 100% of your matches. This averages out to 2-3 months."

I que on dps during off hours is over 1hr+; during peak times is still over 20+min in whatever magical world you are living that only 5 min is a que you need to realize this is a bold face lie.

3) 50/50 - I am one of 4 people. It doesn't matter how good I do if i'm solo queing it all relies on the other 3 people doing their job right as well.. To say a good player can guarantee the win of the party. is 100% ignorant and shows a complete lack of knowledge of how pvp works. If my team mates are screwing up. I can play 5million times better then them and we will still loose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VinhSama

I have no problem with win trading, but skewing facts and using strawman arguments to garner support is despicable.

---

Strong language from someone who presents between 221 and 331 hours of PVP as "2-3 months", or the idea that you'd get queues for those hundreds of hours under ideal circumstances..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FelisC

Have to agree 100% with the people who say that the big problem is that the PVP isn't fun. More fun would mean more people queuing which would mean faster matches. Hopefully frontlines delivers.

I've never heard this but if that's true that's very interesting, link?

---

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...0fb8139b3464da

It says so in the patchnotes. It also says that the matchmaking criteria will widen over time... I don't know how effective that really is though. Matchmaking times are still horrendous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...0fb8139b3464da

It says so in the patchnotes. It also says that the matchmaking criteria will widen over time... I don't know how effective that really is though. Matchmaking times are still horrendous.

---

Oh, I see. I guess that's an attempt to address the issue of highly geared players stomping on not as highly geared players, but it wouldn't be effective at all without someone actually playing PVP...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

They could have solved this issue entirely by simply removing morale. The whole concept of PvP only gear is both silly and jarring. A fresh-faced player pugging into a group of people geared to the teeth in PvP gear is not even remotely fun, and puts you at such a significant disadvantage that you can't even adequately compete.

---

This! it is totally unfair to start out with fight against high gear players. Even the strongest PvE set, become nothing against PvP set there. Instead of me trying to attempt it over and over by keep losing to get little mark. People hate to lose, and I don't do win trade either. so what is my solution then? I quit PvP all together, and so does other people I known. This mean that your queue time will be longer, the more people quit it.

To be honest, PvP supposed to be like a fighting game where your gear is no matter. You play a lot of it, so your skill will be better than those newbies who come in latter, but at least they doesn't have to feed up with another handicap for using low lv gear.

The players skill should be enough to decide the winner, we don't want another extra layer of handicap to the new starters.

If developers don't care to make PvP any good, then I won't bother to care either. I am sure if you ask 3/4 people why they PvP, most would say to just glamour the new armor. PvP was not touched by many before the set came out, now there are Win Trade LS's everywhere. If you are saying this is alright to do and not even attempting to fix it or make it where competing in PvP is not the better alternative, then I don't know why you bothered to create PvP in the first place. I knew it was an afterthought the PvP, but the laziness in the design and methods makes it more obvious.

I'll be honest and say I stopped reading everything at page 5. So if it was mentioned, disregard.

The PvP gear has main stats similar or the same as PvE. So if it was completely outright simple to get i100 gear or i90 or whatever, it would lesson the purpose of dungeon raids (coil, myth, sol, etc).

So, why not make it easier to get, but not usable for PvE except for glamor? Or, since that would be near impossible or improbable to make, make PvP have entirely different statistics based soley on PvP experience, from wins/loses? My level 50, i98 PLD walks into PvP with level 1 PvP gear because I'm level 1 PvP, same as PvE? And then run with it that way. I can elaborate my idea further if wanted, but it could be plain as day anyway.

Well, Frontlines will have no morale, and most likely reward much higher PvP xp and Wolf Marks, on account of the battle taking longer. So I'd expect anyone tired of sitting in queues for imba arena matches, should be SUPER excited to spam Frontlines nonstop, while it's new and fresh and people are actually lining up for them. We'll see a month from now if it's still popular.

Equalized gear is what I'd like to see, special matches with equalized gear that don't affect your weekly or monthly rank. And let's not forget solo queues, maybe with a small reward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

Report me. The devs have already stated officially that it's allowed. But 'against the spirit.'

---

Clearly they haven't. Don't just post nonsense to back yourself up. Yoshi himself has stated to report people.

I hope many people follow your advice and report you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alise

This! it is totally unfair to start out with fight against high gear players. Even the strongest PvE set, become nothing against PvP set there.

---

No it doesn't. High end PVE gear is competitive in pvp. The problem is not the gears, but the people in them. If you think you can jump in to pvp and go up against legit rank 30's and 40's and come out on top... you're in for a rude awakening.
You put a experienced and good pvp'r in the gears you are wearing in your profile (i100/100) they will dominate in pvp, (I've seen people do it with much less). You see the same people in level 30's and 40's where gear is irrelevant, basically soloing/carrying teams. Thats experience and know how, gears are irrelevant. Experience and know how is key, not gears. a rank 30/40 legit player will dominate in pvp gear and high end pve gear.

Don't blame gears for your shortcomings... these people didn't obtain their experience/skill overnight.

Long grinds don't kill subs, long grinds are meant to add a different approach in the game. I belive for the most part SE has done an excellent job having long grinds thus far as content that is optional.

I've stood by since day one that pvp needs to not be about the gear and more about the strategy to combat your different opponents. As soon as you put gear in you create a gap, unless you have gear matching it will always be a gap, so how does someone compete quickly? They win trade to get the gear.

In a situation where there is no longer a gap with gear win trading still exists. Why? The answer is simple, if the option is there a human being with a competitive attitude will try and get something that makes them stand out/ brag. That would come in the former of the largest number of games won.

It's the same attitude for people that want these world/server firsts in coil, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Well, that's exactly the way solo PvP players feel. Want to know a big reason why the PvP queues suck? Because of people who cheat to rank up such as yourself. What is the point in me queuing solo in my i70 PvP gear if I know I'm just going to get smashed by a group of people who have cheated their way to BiS PvP gear. Your cheating (and yes it is cheating no matter what the Devs say) is as a big a problem as all the others.

---

Exactly that is why i stopped PvP a while ago. I had a good win ratio but it got hilarious to get queue'd against teams with full PvP sets, which you can't win against simply by gear-check. At that time the queue's came almost instantly, but a lot people in one of my ls felt the same and stopped all together. Win trading is cancer for PvP and people who support it and practice is, are in no place to complain about long queue's, since they are one of the reasons that problem exist in first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Well, and this will probably be the first comment that is an actual attack, clearly you're not that bright. PvP queue times are long because no one is playing! It's nothing to do with algorithms you can't make a 4 vs 4 if only 7 people are queued.

Sorry, I will put this on record just for you. As clearly you don't understand despite nearly every person in the thread saying it.

4 + 4 = 8. Which means if under 8 people are queued, no match. That means if 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 people are queued, no match. Is that still too complicated for you? Well take an hour or two to try and figure it out while you're cheating your way up the rank ladder.

---

^This.

Make a specal lvl 50 pvp queue when gear/morale does not matter at all. Problem solved. Pvp should be about equal competition for ranking where only SKILL matters, not time/money invested to get raw power.

Frontlines is a great step forward in this matter.

You can't say he is wrong and then list this part of the quote. " it’s better for us to find a method so players won’t do this,"

They already get it, and intend to find a better way of doing things. He isn't wrong. Nitpicking it further does nothing at all. Good day to you sir.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

They could have solved this issue entirely by simply removing morale. The whole concept of PvP only gear is both silly and jarring. A fresh-faced player pugging into a group of people geared to the teeth in PvP gear is not even remotely fun, and puts you at such a significant disadvantage that you can't even adequately compete.

---

This player has it right, and this IS something Yoshi mentioned. I personally have no Morale gear at the moment. When I run in and get face stomped by the other team it kills my want to even do it at all. Especially when it happens round after round. You guys can try to make it seem like it's all about the queue and other issues, but to act like this isn't a factor at all is entirely inaccurate. Many people I personally know ignore it for this very reason and they never even try it enough to get agitated at the queues. Those people are the ones he is talking about and that this thread seems dead set to ignore.

Personally, I'm not into PvP, and I will just be doing one round of it to get my participation trophy.

However, whether any of the suggestions in this thread are right or wrong, I hope PvP is improved for the folks who enjoy participating in this kind of content.

Got a question here.

How long does it take a new player to get the best PvE gear? Or time from Coil1 to getting High allagan weapon, incase of going from Rank 30 -> 40?

I don't play the game anymore, so I don't personally know that. But if the times for that is similar to getting the best PvP gear, nothing is wrong with it.

It's simply.

After you reach rank 25+, your average queue times is 25 mins, sometimes 5 mins others 1 hour.

People does pvp, but queue take long time so they do wintrade. People doing windtrade is players who don't join to pvp, so more queue times.

Dedicated pvp players, after rank 32, are forced to do wintrade or just play 2 or 3 games each hour, getting around 60(3Loses) - 180(3wins) exp. To get the new rank you need 4920(rank 30)-5220(rank 31)...You'll need 40-42-44... hours to get a new rank.

Premade teams are not useful because no one play 4vs4 unless they are wintrade and if you are lucky, one of that team pops in front of you. And you will get a lot of "a player withdraw...".

Pugging is a lottery, you can find a healer 3k hp, wearing shit stuffs, or a dragoon with shit stuffs lvl 35+ and af1. or a wintrader player who wear pvp gear but doesn't know anything about a real pvp match.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murakamo

please tell me your world you play in and the time frame you play at so I can join you.

---

I'm in the Primal group of servers. Same as you. I often get paired up with people from Excalibur actually. I pvp most days from around 5pm to 2am; during non-peak hours I leave the game in queue while I do other things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FelisC

Strong language from someone who presents between 221 and 331 hours of PVP as "2-3 months", or the idea that you'd get queues for those hundreds of hours under ideal circumstances..

---

The 221 to 331 hours of PVP was based on the OPs 4 hours per day during peak hours. 331 hours at 4 hours a day = 82 days. Ideal circumstances of course implies peak hours. And that's 2-3 months from 0-40; keep in mind pvp was originally designed 0-30, which takes less than half of that time (and less than half of that exp). Of course this is all ideal, but it was based on the OPs condition of 4 hours a day at peak hours.