Turn 5 seems too difficult

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

at times I can swing both ways.

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For some reason this was as far as I read.
Hai OP ;p

GL you'll get those fights down eventually.

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

Every other mmorpg I've played I've usually tried avoiding parties

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That sounds like a single-player game mindset. Doesn't work in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Seriously...?

Literally the entire fight is "know when to move where"

That's all.

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Cause, you know, there are absolutely no secondary targets or priority actions such as weaken one target with the death of another at all...

Please stop spreading misinformation. While movement is the highest concern in the fight, there is much more to it than simply being at the right place at the right time.

T5 is the first brick wall to come up against in coil now. It is much easier now with the buff and everyone in i90+ gear but it is still easy to mess up. One of the first fights where 8 people have to pay attention to mechanics or the group fails. It takes practice and patience even with the echo buff and gear for most people the first time in there. None of the mechanics are inherently that difficult but you just can't forget about them or ignore them (well DS and conflags you can to a degree now).

If you are struggling, take a deep breath and enjoy the challenge the game is finally presenting to you. There is no need to get past T5 unless you enjoy doing progressively harder content. So if you don't like getting together with 8 other people to work on content that takes time to learn, don't worry about T5. It's a good gate to get party's ready for SCOB.

The reason I think T5 is hard for a lot of people...

The echo doesn't save you from one shot mechanics that doesn't rely on your HP or a dps check. There are a few things in T5 that one shot you simply because you or your party didn't handle properly.

Getting dive bombed into a wall
hit by twisters
hit by the dread knight if it's not killed fast enough or standing too close to it
the eggs if there is not a tank soaking them in the neural link or not running to a neural link if one is loose
tanks and healers not ready for death sentence
not moving from liquid hells in the last phase
her two hour after snakes wether by standing too close to the little ones when they die or not standing in the neural link.....

There are a lot of mechanics that have to be handled properly. The echo can't do shit for some of that.

Weird how different people are on forums, as opposed to in game because in game it seems people who have made it past turn 5, and into the late turns and so on still state that turn 5 is the hardest content in the game that they've done.

Those of you saying Turn 5 isn't hard, maybe you're right. Maybe difficult was the wrong term of me to use because the only trouble I've had with the fight is finding other people who know what they're doing. I've made it close to the end of the fight just fine, until someone screws something up. 20% Buff does absolutely nothing when you have a party that doesn't know the fight setup/cant learn it/doesn't pay attention.

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

Weird how different people are on forums, as opposed to in game because in game it seems people who have made it past turn 5, and into the late turns and so on still state that turn 5 is the hardest content in the game that they've done.

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I don't know who you've been talking to, haha. But, T5 is far from the hardest content in the game. Meh, guess it's all objective.

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

Those of you saying Turn 5 isn't hard, maybe you're right.

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Meh most of the players that say it isn't hard probably spent hours upon hours a week to get it down. Only few hardcore players probably need less time. On the forums everyone here are super pros but in game reality is totally different.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Meh most of the players that say it isn't hard probably spent hours upon hours a week to get it down. Only few hardcore players probably need less time. On the forums everyone here are super pros but in game reality is totally different.

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For myself it only took 2 days. But I take into account that I played with people who learned the fight. All I needed to learn was dives and twisters.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

For myself it only took 2 days. But I take into account that I played with people who learned the fight. All I needed to learn was dives and twisters.

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Cool, but for the majority of players it takes weeks, especially if you have a weak link or two.

T5 is far from hard.

It's just got a steep learning curve. Everything in T5 is easily controllable and timed with little to no RNG, so as long as you understand the times in-between phases or actions, the fight is relatively straight-forward. Majority of the tactics you need to apply in the Second Coil are those you should've learned during your experience during Turn 5 (staggering DPS, controlling buffs, slightly alternating your rotation). And I am sorry to say this, if you hit a brick wall on Turn 5, you'll hit another wall on Turn 6 once you've cleared it.

Find yourself a competent group with similar goals as yourself and stick together. That's all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

Every other mmorpg I've played I've usually tried avoiding parties due to things like this but this is the second of many mmos that I've actually reached end game, and I've enjoyed it for the most part.

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MMO's focusing on solo content?
really?

I think T5 is really one of the initial gateways into the real meat of the next level of teamwork in this game. Prior to T5, people could often slack off or not really pay attention and the rest of the party usually had to pick up the slack. From T5 onwards into the new Coil and new Extremes, the real name of the game is self-awareness in every fight. You can't afford to just fluff about and hope that the tanks/healers will pick you up when you stumble or when you're giving it half-hearted attention. To be successful in T5 and on, it's on you to be on top of everything around you: to know the patterns to look out for, to not stand in stuff you shouldn't be, and how to most effectively play your class in those situations. And not only that, but you need to be aware of where others are, so you don't accidentally mess them up through your own actions.

For example, people dying to divebombs often aren't paying attention to when Twintania breaks and triggers that divebomb section. People that die to twisters aren't focus targeting Twintania during the battle to be aware of when she casts it.

I think what's happening is that you're getting teammates that (a) either don't care about knowing the fight because they think they can just lean on someone else to get them through it, or (b) they aren't paying attention to everything around them and have tunnel vision when they fight. You really can't have weak links in a party with the newer content... I think that's what will hold people back until SE artifically lowers the bar for them to enter in later.

There's a lot of inherent "difficulty" in finding a group that handles the learning curve of the fights at the same rate. Some people will take longer or need more practice than others and it can be frustrating. T5 jump in learning curve is quite large from T4 and those differences become more pronounced/ frustrating there.

As to why you may hear feedback that T5 is harder than entering T6 is that the jump in skill level from T4-T5 is much larger than T5-T6. Much of the focus and attentiveness learned in T5 is put to use in T6. If you were to have your group go from T4 to T6 (skipping T5), you would find T6 just as big (if not bigger) of a road block because the group didn't learn the focus and adherence to mechanics that were learned in T5.

Conflags - Go ham on every other one. You have a 15% damage increase and they had their HP nerfed, there is no reason to ever be stuck on this phase.
Divebombs - Get on the literal edge of the field. People think they're fine being slightly into the dip and this just isn't the case. Twin will dive at an angle to cleave right through the dip. You can still dodge this but most people don't have the capability to compensate for that
Snakes - Your tanks just need to get good at positioning these. Caster LB2 will do a good 60% or more damage and lb3 should kill them outright. Get the first 2 snakes to at least 50% then use caster on all 4, the last 2 will die in no time after they have the debuff then murder Asclepius
Twisters - git gud
Dreadnaughts - blm or smn needs to slow them. If you have a smn keep twin near their spawn so they can Bane dots over. This won't transfer the slow but it will do damage. OT or whoever can needs to be stunning them. Wait for the stun timer to run out.
Hatches - OT sits in the neurolink and eats them, need to be far enough away where MT won't get hit. I've heard with echo people are using one tank and just having a melee dps eat these now.
5x liquid hells - just run in a line backwards, this should only be a problem if the MT or OT gets it.

only way to handle twisters is to focus target twintania and when u see twister cast move in a cycle dont back track. as for divebombs its not invisble theres a green target which targets someone best way to handle divebombs is to be at the bottom of the pit and stack tight together make sure not hit wall when the green target pop move foward and back its a simple mechanic make sure to have someone call out twisters

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Cause, you know, there are absolutely no secondary targets or priority actions such as weaken one target with the death of another at all...

Please stop spreading misinformation. While movement is the highest concern in the fight, there is much more to it than simply being at the right place at the right time.

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It goes without saying that there is always fighting. Mechanically speaking however, it's practically all move when/where.

It was blatantly obvious hyperbole too.

Death Sentence & sure, you've got the don't be near the corpses effect, are just about the only non-move, non-kill mechanic to watch out for...

Again, hyperbole. Look forward to it.

I beat Twintania like 20 or so times with my FC but I also joined some PF pugs who who said they were farm groups or whatever but none of these groups ever won in PF. From my own experience is pugs can't dodge twister at all. They do not know about focus target or have bad raid awareness when it comes to moving when she is casting twister. Which was the easiest part for my FC we had more issues with snakes and dive bombes but back in 2.0 when we were doing progression on this fight once we got past dive bombs it was an easy kill and almost nobody got hit by twisters.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

For myself it only took 2 days. But I take into account that I played with people who learned the fight. All I needed to learn was dives and twisters.

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Same here. Watched a video. Practiced with DF when bored here and there for 2 days. Found a group from another FC to run with. Twin dead in 3 attempts. Walked away with a weapon. (not on this character. Haven't been able to update forum character properly for some reason). Outside of somehow being clipped by twister twice, it was pretty easy as a SCH.

It really isn't hard. Just finding 7 other competent people who aren't 'leftovers' is hard.

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

when I have to do it with 7 other characters I have no control over, and are just 7 other people with their own limits

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Tell me im not the only one that finds this notion at least a little bit ridiculous?

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Originally Posted by AeirTalies

Turn 5 seems too difficult

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Why don't you make feedback on feeback section like,

• I want Death Sentence only deal 1k damage so they don't need to heal me at all.
• Make Firemarked person on phase two only deals hundred damage so one person can handle it without making 3-4 person stacking.
• Divebomb can't knockbacking anymore and only deal hundred damage, so we only need to stay at same position waiting to get heal.
• Twister can't 1 hit PC anymore instead will give buff damage so your party can kill DK faster
• Last Phase is the hardest part, make Twintania does nothing but only DS with 2k damage.
• Oh, one last thing make this system only work to people who rant and whining a lot. So they can continue to play because any content is easy and manageable with any kind of players.

OP, get a static, or even start one.

With the echo, Turn 5 only has three difficult parts.

Conflags. Echo makes killing them easy but people still need to pay attention and do the pet soak right.
Divebombs. Everybody needs to stack in the right spot and move at the right time.
Twisters. Everybody needs to be good at dodging them. Even with echo, 1 dps down is all it takes for dreads to start their killing spree.

Everything else echo trivializes

You folks are in for a surprise if you think the Echo will even help you beat T9. Last phase is the hardest, rather than the easiest like T5.

try doing t1 or even t2 back then in darklight and no enrage. xD

Thank you everyone for giving me tips on parts I already know, and have no trouble on, but lack other players who do, and warning me of how easy this battle is due to the coil buff.

This thread was more towards other players who have trouble with this fight so I didn't feel like the only one who can't seem to complete this due to minor mess UPS, not to attract people whom prefer to brag and rip on those who aren't as hardcore of gamers as yourselves.

Then again, its a forum so I kind of expected this.

Unfortunately there isn't much SE can do to improve how well some people play. I understand your pain since I went through the same thing for both Titan HM AND EX. Despite these experiences I wouldn't want them to pretty near trivialize fights because I'm having trouble finding 7 other people who can clear them. The best thing you can do short of a static is to watch others during your attempts and make use of your Friend List or a Linkshell to gather people you find capable. The biggest issue I find is getting a group together and having one bad seed. You fire off 2-3 attempts then exit in frustration and instead of being able to just kick the weak link the entire party implodes. Get the good players on your FL or an LS and you can bring them together later and be able to find that last capable person.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

With the echo, Turn 5 only has three difficult parts.

Conflags. Echo makes killing them easy but people still need to pay attention and do the pet soak right.
Divebombs. Everybody needs to stack in the right spot and move at the right time.
Twisters. Everybody needs to be good at dodging them. Even with echo, 1 dps down is all it takes for dreads to start their killing spree.

Everything else echo trivializes

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Yes and no.

DS is still killable. 1 unprotected DS isn't the wipe it used to be, but a few of those and you're wiping in cascade order. Plumet will still follow with a death on the tank. (and DS durring twister is still separates vet healers and tanks from new healers and tanks)

Snakes still need to be done correctly no matter the method Not just stacking. Kill one too soon, the fallen stacks will not let you make it, or if you choose burn method, 2 stacks of weakness will 1shot dive bomb people.

I don't see any part of twin that is trivialized. It makes it better for farming pts, but no way changes the win.

Twintania is very much a group-oriented fight. Your entire group is basically a machine. One loose bolt and the entire thing can and probably will fall apart.

Someone doesn't notice Conflag and gets others trapped? Wipe.
Someone doesn't stack for Divebombs? Wipe.
Can't kill the snakes in time due to low DPS? Wipe.
Group standing too close for Twisters, or not coordinating where they are moving? Wipe.
People not standing as far as they can possibly be for Dreadknights? Could survive if DPS is high enough. But if the target does die, and a melee DPS gets targeted for Unwoven Will after the initial target dies, its going to be hard to recover two DPS.
The entire fifth phase, while people claim is the "home-free" stretch, you can still wipe from Hatches and Liquid Hells especially if people put the Liquid Hells underneath the Neural-links.

Just take it one step at a time and you'll eventually get her down.

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Originally Posted by DragonSlayer45

Can't kill the snakes in time due to low DPS? Wipe.

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That's a misnomer. It depends entire on the strat of how snakes are done.

The 4x strat is actually a problem because with echo you have "too much DPS". All 4 snakes must live and die at the same time to get a proper 4x weakness on big snake. If you kill a snake too soon, it's a wipe. You can really say "fcking smn" here. Controlling the death is really really critical.

the 2x 2x is not a dps race, but it is a gather race. You really have to not move the snake a lot. The problem here is the tanks, they have to gather in a efficient matter.

The 1x stagger method is king clumsy, and I don't think any group uses that anymore, but very hard without a vet controller to kill the snakes in the proper time. (and not die to dive bombs obviously)

Things that will make T5 easier, the Echo doesn't do anything. Give the Twintania an audio cue or verbal cue when she casts it and for Divebombs, give it an aoe marker.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Things that will make T5 easier, the Echo doesn't do anything. Give the Twintania an audio cue or verbal cue when she casts it and for Divebombs, give it an aoe marker.

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I'm sure they're there, just hidden. A huge part of coil and extremes are the lack of aoe markers, so only really practice people can "instinctively" see them.

No one would need the ditch if you saw the aoe markers for dive bombs, or lines for twisters.

The only thing about Turn 5 that's hard is that it requires good group co-ordination.

Ironically if people had learned to do Turn 2 the proper way with Allagan rot, instead of the lazy way, then they'd be better prepared for this kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Cool, but for the majority of players it takes weeks, especially if you have a weak link or two.

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Here is my problem with 90% of the people who say "the fight is easy but...the other people are messing up". It's really quite simple. If you have people in your group who are brain dead..or can't get the mechanic down. Then it's time to say "well...it was fun but your worthless so go somewhere else." then replace them and move on.

Why do people always forget that making the right group is an MMO skill too. You failed before the pull.

This is todays community: check PF, if T5 (in this example) click join, if no T5: close PF, look again later. I'm glad T5 punishes those people.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Conflags - Go ham on every other one. You have a 15% damage increase and they had their HP nerfed, there is no reason to ever be stuck on this phase.

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Nothing in T5 has had it's HP nerfed.

T5 too hard, yoshida pls nerf.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

Here is my problem with 90% of the people who say "the fight is easy but...the other people are messing up". It's really quite simple. If you have people in your group who are brain dead..or can't get the mechanic down. Then it's time to say "well...it was fun but your worthless so go somewhere else." then replace them and move on.

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You know the difference between true friend and false friend?

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Yes and no.

DS is still killable. 1 unprotected DS isn't the wipe it used to be, but a few of those and you're wiping in cascade order. Plumet will still follow with a death on the tank. (and DS durring twister is still separates vet healers and tanks from new healers and tanks)

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To be fair, SCHs in general feel like they make a joke of DS with how lustrate works...

All that needs to happen is the tank to survive the initial hit while the SCH has at least 2 aetherflow stacks on hand.

Ironically the first time I stopped getting clipped by the first twister, dealing with DS during the twister was easy.

this thread is funny.

i went back after this last patch and picked up the fc members that did not have any coil experience in my fc along with one other member that was willing to help me. we dropped all the way down to t1 and have taken the group all the way through t5 so far. we have only been running for 3 weeks now and have 5 new people with their first t5 win in the group along with one pug we picked up on our run wednesday night.

best advice is get geared, get a group willing to learn, and put in a little effort. if you can take 5 people with 0 coil experience and teach them 1-5 and get their t5 clear in a few weeks then getting just t5 itself down in a week or so should be pretty easy with decently skilled players. also, i know many are scared of it, but voice chat while learning is a great addition to any party.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Nothing in T5 has had it's HP nerfed.

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you are completely wrong. the conflags had their hp nerfed by 40% months ago.