WARRIOR STATS ALLOCATION

I've allocated all 30 attribute points to strength and I've noticed I've been dodging cleaves from ex primals a lot. I've also parried quite more. I'm I level 86 by the way.

Im ilvl 90 -atm doing turn 5.
I have full set of fending accessories from myths/allagan (i found allagan ones slightly better statwise).
Atm: about 538 VIT, 347 STR -its full vit build (30/30 VIT and vit accessories). About 10k HP with +11 VIT food. I have only 460 Acc and i sometime miss but i dont know if i should trade one VIT jewelery for STR/ACC one or should i keep it like that till better gear piece?

Another story are STR accessories -is it really worth it? One time i changed from fending accessories for i70lvl brayflox hm accessories maiming/slaying (+around 30 str) and didnt notice any better.. it was like +10-20 dmg, +1% more with parry but the same time i parried less often. I think and only think if i went full STR accessories i90lvl it would be like +40dmg +2% parry but less often - is it worth it?

My role is MT and OT, depending on run. i MT turn 2 but OT turn 5;]

Thanks for help.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

I've allocated all 30 attribute points to strength and I've noticed I've been dodging cleaves from ex primals a lot. I've also parried quite more. I'm I level 86 by the way.

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Nothing effects dodge, and str only minor affects parry (very minor).

Vit or people will dump you for most end game stuff sadly. With burst damage what it is, no room for anything but vit vit and more vit.

Heck even def is just sugar coating to vit.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Nothing effects dodge, and str only minor affects parry (very minor).

Vit or people will dump you for most end game stuff sadly. With burst damage what it is, no room for anything but vit vit and more vit.

Heck even def is just sugar coating to vit.

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Cooldowns are more than enough to cover bursts. This game gives Warriors way more HP than they needed.

Get as much HP as you need and build for STR.

sadly it looks like SE intented to make only one build viable.
With fending accessories you have VIT and Parry and no amount of STR will make it better option.
High STR will make better hate, dmg and slightly better parry (is it like +1% per every 40 str? i heard yes). But in the same time you have less hp pool for spike dmg (i dont trust healers so much ;) ) and less often parry (because of lack of Parry accesories). Sadly. STR won't compensate it.

If im wrong please some link to calculating str/vit&parry

Don't understand the obsession with Parry and more VIT than you need. /thread on first page:

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

I'm with TheTank

I swapped to 30 Strength yesterday for Coil and happy with the results. This will probably be a permanent thing.

I think that for Warriors, once you've reached a certain gear level, you'll eventually have more VIT than you actually need.

HP gains are subject to diminishing returns and once you've reached a certain HP threshold (which varies every fight), any HP gains beyond that become less and less valuable. Meanwhile, Strength gains are always valuable (not subject to diminishing returns) and will actually increase your group's margins for error more than increasing your own HP total will.

I thought about making a new thread about VIT vs STR (Attribute Points and Gear). I'm pretty convinced that a true "BiS Warrior" has +30 STR and wears i70 Crafted Accessories and/or i110 Slaying.

With party buff, Defiance and food, I don't think it's necessary to have more than 9000 HP in any fight. Even 9k seems high. That's what I'm sitting at right now with +30 STR and Gryphonskin. My HP total was never threatened and DPS was high.

TL;DR: VIT +30 is soooooo 2.1

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There's never a point where more vit then you need... that few more points always make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

There's never a point where more vit then you need... that few more points always make everyone happy.

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It's about opportunity cost. Excess VIT can be easily exchanged for STR. In many situations, particularly in the current end-game (T6-9), and the extra damage is more valuable than the extra HP.

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Originally Posted by CrossSleet

sadly it looks like SE intented to make only one build viable.
With fending accessories you have VIT and Parry and no amount of STR will make it better option.
High STR will make better hate, dmg and slightly better parry (is it like +1% per every 40 str? i heard yes). But in the same time you have less hp pool for spike dmg (i dont trust healers so much ;) ) and less often parry (because of lack of Parry accesories). Sadly. STR won't compensate it.

If im wrong please some link to calculating str/vit&parry

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It's just the damage you're interested in. Hate is a joke in this game. Parry is a joke in this game. When dealt with properly (ie. Inner Beast), spike damage doesn't really go far beyond 6k on a Warrior. That's before considering Vengeance and Thrill. So, why do we need to allocate +30 Vitality and wear Fending Accessories to exceed 10,000 HP?

It's a little different for Paladins who don't scale as well with Strength and are most likely going to be taking Bahamut's Claws.

Full str from beginning, tryed full vit still went back to Str and I'm having no problems.
It all depends what works for you, remember that.

I think the skill level of your static will also determine the amount of Vit you need to bring to the table.
Are you barely surviving? Then prob need to stack Vit.
Are you easily surviving without coming anywhere close to death? Then it makes sense to slowly start moving into STR accessories.

Other than avoiding SS, secondary stats do not matter. Get the most primary stat you can and be done with it.
Parry is worthless to build around, I have parried for 15% of the time and 39% on the same fight in the same gear. It is pointless to build around.
Parrying for more is at least controllable, ie STR.

Would I avoid parry absolutely not, am i going out of my way to stack it? absolutely not

In the current meta you don't really need VIT except if your main tanking T9(maybe t8 too?). The amount of DPS that a warrior can potentially do is almost high as a DPS. I believe warriors truly shine as HYBRID DPS TANKs , it pushes the class to its full potential. It will also make fights like T8 and T9 so much easier instead of trying to cheese them with 5 DPS lol. I am only ilvl 102 ish and I can push 350 dps on dummy(over 3min), 290 on t8 and 260 on T9.

Ok.
Then next question: are secondary stats like determination really irrelevant and i should just go STR accessories? I find it hard to obtain ideal accessories in this game...
Plus: as i am only ilvl 92 and doing turn5 atm - are there any soft caps? Someone wrote 500 VIT is a must. I have 538 right now so should i sacrifice these 38 for str?
Is there ANY way to calculate your dps when on PS4/PS3?

T5 is a fight where the extra VIT is probably more helpful than the STR. Depending on your group and if you are MTing/solo tanking ect.

However if you are building to STR, then yes all of your accessories just get the highest STR possible and don't worry about the secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

It's about opportunity cost. Excess VIT can be easily exchanged for STR. In many situations, particularly in the current end-game (T6-9), and the extra damage is more valuable than the extra HP.

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The problem is with resets being so costly, are you a one trick pony or all around. There's always a situation where more vit is better, there isn't with more str.

The str is very minor compared to the vit need of being a tank.

It's just hard unless you run 24/7 with the same people, on the same content, with the same setup.

One/two strength/intel/dex pot from any of the dps, will easily beat your entire run of +30str as oppose to 30vit. The damage potential compare to a pld is a nice boast for wars, but in the end they aren't going to be anywhere near a full DPS

240-280 dps is pretty close to a full DPS



Extra Vitality is a waste if you are not using it.

Extra Str is never a waste.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

240-280 dps is pretty close to a full DPS



Extra Vitality is a waste if you are not using it.

Extra Str is never a waste.

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And healers will hate you for that. They want a tank, not something that saves 30 seconds on a run. There are a few cases where the war's dps can make a difference, but stupidly minor, because of the way content is built on.

Even if you are burning something like an add, those 30 str is stupidly negligible, since it's a GCD problem, not a damage problem.

Everyone sprouts T8 T8 T8....when more or less it's done by optimization not by stats. No group has ever said "oh that str made a difference" on a warrior.

IF you run with a static that never changes ever, I can understand that. But it's still comes down to tanking first and foremost, and SE's infatuation with bursty damage.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

240-280 dps is pretty close to a full DPS

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Well. Not an I100 DPS.
Although a DPS can't survive like a STR stacked War.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

And healers will hate you for that.

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Lawl.

You clearly don't understand what we are talking about. It is not just +30STR. ( which is huge btw)

You also cannot read what I just said in the quote you quoted me in. Extra Vitality does nothing.
Explain your theory on how extra health helps, if you are already surviving, and not dipping.

T6 is a mechanics fight, one does not need 10k health.

Shaving off 30 seconds is a big deal, even in a 10 min fight, that is a 5% reduction in time spent fighting aka damage taken.

T6, the faster you get out of phase 1, the less devours occur, ie reducing chance to screw up.
The faster you get out of phase 2, the less bees, the less devours, the less blighted (this increases everyones damage if they stand around less) ect it adds up.
This applies to almost every fight in this game.


@Judge Xero

Yes you won't be doing the same as a Full DPS, but you'll be almost doubling another tank, while still providing the survivability.

And as far as I know, i92-i96 geared dps is only pulling dps in the 300s(t6), so its not that far away.

It is a hybrid role, that has become much more viable in t6-9.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

The problem is with resets being so costly, are you a one trick pony or all around. There's always a situation where more vit is better, there isn't with more str.

The str is very minor compared to the vit need of being a tank.

It's just hard unless you run 24/7 with the same people, on the same content, with the same setup.

One/two strength/intel/dex pot from any of the dps, will easily beat your entire run of +30str as oppose to 30vit. The damage potential compare to a pld is a nice boast for wars, but in the end they aren't going to be anywhere near a full DPS

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Okay, what kind of content are we talking about here? And what level of intensity are we playing at? Because I'm talking about end-game min-maxing to improve your group's capacity to kill bosses and increasing the group's margins of error.

According to my understanding of my class, the bosses in the game, and just general math, an OT Warrior is given way more Vitality than he actually requires to safely withstand any burst damage he can be dealt. The best thing a Warrior can do to shed VIT for STR is to use STR accessories and/or change his attributes. I've done both. The +30 STR will be permanent. If I ever need more VIT, I equip VIT accessories.

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One/two strength/intel/dex pot from any of the dps, will easily beat your entire run of +30str as oppose to 30vit. The damage potential compare to a pld is a nice boast for wars, but in the end they aren't going to be anywhere near a full DPS

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84 Strength for 15s every 5 minutes is equivalent to 4.2 Strength on average. Seeing as 4.2 is a lower number than 30, no it does not "easily beat" it.

And that's not to say that someone specced +30 STR can't drink Strength potions.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Okay, what kind of content are we talking about here? And what level of intensity are we playing at? Because I'm talking about end-game min-maxing to improve your group's capacity to kill bosses and increasing the group's margins of error.

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That's a pointless argument because the level is purely on the basis of the formation of the group. SE has designed almost any and every content to scale to epic levels based on mechanics of the fight, by using stacks, debuffs, any and other combinations of factors.

Something as simple as twintainia(simple now anyway) still kills groups with 15% echo on top of i100 tank gear simply because the group maybe a little off.

Or titan will and will not kill simple because of who has how many stacks, vs healers reactions

Vit helps a tank, Always does, always will. Because SE likes bursty mechanics.

Very little mechanics (or almost none) helps with a bit of extra damage from the tank/healer. Almost all content SE has created is with the intent that "gcd is what limits people, not their stats" on the dps end. Almost every burst mechanics in the game is given by simply having 8 members attack twice (cleric stance, sword oath, or whatever not really a matter) or 3 times to "kill it".

this is again proven by the echo, where even if you have 25% echo, the GCD limits the require power to "beat" an add phase, and is bypassed by having more members (alive) hitting it.

T5 is probably the one exception where VIT is definitely needed, unless of course you are the OT, in which case you would still want to be in STR build.

But this is past content, and we are specifically talking about T6-T9.

And the build min/max is considering you have mostly i100+ gear, in which case if you went back to T5 with i100 ilvl, you would not need the extra VIT and could again get away with STR build.

Your Titan argument is wrong, because extra DPS actually can push him through phases and you can skip stacks/have them fall off, if you do it right.
This is why you can do it with 1 tank.


"Vit helps a tank, Always does, always will..." no it doesn't 8000 health vs 10,000 health Boss bursts for 5k, = 3000 health vs 5000 health. We are both still alive.
And the healer would still have to heal you for the exact same amount, 5k health....

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

The problem is with resets being so costly, are you a one trick pony or all around. There's always a situation where more vit is better, there isn't with more str.

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This just in, 10k GC seals is super-costly.

I'll ask: Have YOU tried STR spec? For more than 5 minutes? It's not some "for fun" myth or even just a super min-maxer's thing. It's not difficult for healers unless your healers are terrible anyways.

Extra DPS is extra DPS no matter what the source, be it a DRG pumping more damage, a SCH throwing on cleric dots, or a WAR milking all the damage they can while not impairing the group's success rate.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Very little mechanics (or almost none) helps with a bit of extra damage from the tank/healer. Almost all content SE has created is with the intent that "gcd is what limits people, not their stats" on the dps end. Almost every burst mechanics in the game is given by simply having 8 members attack twice (cleric stance, sword oath, or whatever not really a matter) or 3 times to "kill it".

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Are we playing the same game? Because, if you're talking about the same game that I'm playing, that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read.

No, there is no fight in the game where DPS races are "you and your buddies must each hit this thingy 2 or 3 times to kill it!". Enemies actually have HP totals. Damage output is determined by raw stats. Everybody, including the tanks, contributes to these DPS races.

You, like many other tanks, have no concept of damage output and the value it provides to your group. There are many DPS races in the game. Even if the DPS race quota can be met, there is still tremendous value in further increasing your DPS. Twintania and Titan EX, the two fights that you used in your examples, are fights that are often decided by sheer DPS output.

Like I said many times before, HP gains are subject to diminishing returns. How much damage will a boss deal to you with its most bursty damage attack plus an auto-attack?

Before SCoB, Twintania can deal a maximum of 9000 to a Warrior if he fails to Inner Beast or pop a cooldown, and the healers all fail to Virus, Eye for an Eye, Stoneskin or Adlo. This is a worst case scenario that should not happen with decent players who have any understanding of how Death Sentence works. 9.0k is the number. If I use cooldowns effectively, which I trust myself to do, the number becomes closer to 7k. In +30 Strength and full Strength Accessories, I have 10.5k HP (w/ echo). We've had this fight on farm status since I had 8k HP.

Bottom line is:

Wars
- have enough hp to tank whatever it is you're tanking.
- all other points and stats into DPS.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Are we playing the same game? Because, if you're talking about the same game that I'm playing, that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read.

No, there is no fight in the game where DPS races are "you and your buddies must each hit this thingy 2 or 3 times to kill it!". Enemies actually have HP totals. Damage output is determined by raw stats. Everybody, including the tanks, contributes to these DPS races.

You, like many other tanks, have no concept of damage output and the value it provides to your group. There are many DPS races in the game. Even if the DPS race quota can be met, there is still tremendous value in further increasing your DPS. Twintania and Titan EX, the two fights that you used in your examples, are fights that are often decided by sheer DPS output.

Like I said many times before, HP gains are subject to diminishing returns. How much damage will a boss deal to you with its most bursty damage attack plus an auto-attack?

Before SCoB, Twintania can deal a maximum of 9000 to a Warrior if he fails to Inner Beast or pop a cooldown, and the healers all fail to Virus, Eye for an Eye, Stoneskin or Adlo. This is a worst case scenario that should not happen with decent players who have any understanding of how Death Sentence works. 9.0k is the number. If I use cooldowns effectively, which I trust myself to do, the number becomes closer to 7k. In +30 Strength and full Strength Accessories, I have 10.5k HP (w/ echo). We've had this fight on farm status since I had 8k HP.

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elistst thinking that's ultimately proven wrong when they rage quit because people can't keep up or them or they can't keep up with peoples pace.

9000 hit DS heh...riiighhht. perfect in an ideological world.


All that str gives you is making healers life miserable. Wars are one of the more fragile tanks in this respect an you're asking them to even sheathe that with some str.

Next time be l33t and go MRD....seriously you can hit upto 1600 damage, and tank! great deal!

Even the almighty T8 is trounced by the appearance of a mnk team that killed it in 8minutes. Ya wars really help? just get a mnk.

Vit is vit is vit. Every class would want to have more vit if possible, and the class that needs it the most you're saying don't do it? Next time you blame the healer for your death and group wipe, maybe it wasn't the healer who was 1 second late in lustre or 2 seconds late in cure2, maybe it was your pathetic HP pools that healers can't even multitask with.

I guess it's great way to form statics for str wars. Scare off every healer that looks at you.

calm down!

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

snip

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Welp. I dunno what else to say.

Your knowledge of Warrior, tanking and end-game is obviously far beyond mine.

Maybe one day, when I figure out how to NOT be a burden to my healers and be less fragile, will I find a static that will help me clear Turn 5. Until then, I'll continue with my ragequitting ways and blame my healers for my deaths.

Many thanks for sharing some of your boundless Warrior knowledge with little old me.

:(

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Vit is vit is vit.

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Lol this guy has been trolling so hard.

Sadly I think hes serious

I got a similar reaction from Reddit derps.

People are totally closed minded. Their logic is that tanking is about survivability and therefore survival stats should always take precedence over damage stats. Mathematical analysis is irrelevant. Actual end game experience is not required. VIT and Parry are king because it makes me tankier. Yeah, okaaay....

In a different game, that may be true. This might have been true a patch ago too. But in SCoB, Warriors really don't need that much HP to comfortably survive.

I wish more Warriors would realize that instead of blindly stacking VIT and Parry.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

In a different game, that may be true.

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It's not true in *any* MMO that I've ever played. Once you've reached the point where it's extremely unlikely that you will die before getting a heal (~p < .05), more eHP is redundant because you're simply stacking it for progressively less likely scenarios. More damage is never redundant.

Since the parry only comes on VIT gear, it could be argued that you will get the redundant VIT by stacking up mean mitigation (of which more is always better; you can never hit a point where further mean mitigation is redundant since freeing up resources, both GCD and MP, from healers means that those healers can do other stuff, like attack); the problem with this is that you lose very little parry when gearing for damage (since a lot of parry comes on your leftside tank gear) compounded further by the fact that, point for point, parry doesn't really do all that much. On top of this, STR actually does increase your mean mitigation by increasing the value of your parry/block so it's not even a purely offensive stat.

As such, there's a very compelling argument for devoting at least some of your accs to STR gear. How much should be devoted to it depends largely upon your healers (if your healers are spot on or you've got a SCH that reliably keeps an Adloq rolling on you, you can likely get away with absolutely no VIT accs), but it's completely fallacious to say that Parry and VIT are absolutely king.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's not true in *any* MMO that I've ever played. Once you've reached the point where it's extremely unlikely that you will die before getting a heal (~p < .05), more eHP is redundant because you're simply stacking it for progressively less likely scenarios. More damage is never redundant.

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By "that may be true", I was referring to the idea of always prioritizing max HP over damage, given the available gear options. I haven't played every game, but I'm sure there are games out there where the tank needs to be as tanky as possible and has no room to compromise Max HP for damage output.

The popular opinion among Warriors in this game is that VIT and Parry are king. Bear in mind that the vast majority of tanks in this game just follow conventional "wisdom". Opo-opo see, opo-opo-do.

The informed, logical, and mathematically sound opinion among Warriors who have the smarts and experience is...

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Originally Posted by TheTank

Bottom line is:

Wars
- have enough hp to tank whatever it is you're tanking.
- all other points and stats into DPS.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

All that str gives you is making healers life miserable. Wars are one of the more fragile tanks in this respect an you're asking them to even sheathe that with some str.

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I am a SCH to my static's STR WAR. I'm totally miserable.

No, wait. I'm not. You're just a closed-minded idiot. Also lol at playing the "elitist" card. The clear thing is the healers you play with are too lazy to evolve with your tank.

Every fight in this game is about "how much more damage can I deal without compromising raid efficiency?". On the basic level, this can be as simple as not running out of non-lethal AoE to continue melee DPS. Or more STR on a tank. Or healer DPS. If a fight was predictable enough for me to reliably do damage such that I am always ready to heal my tank back up from 1 HP, I would always do it. Because he's not dead yet.

Warriors can take it one step further and use their defensive cooldowns as offensive cooldowns. Dropping Defiance and popping defensive cooldowns is like having Unchained up. It's safe to do as long as aggro is solid and as long as you know that you won't need these cooldowns (defensively) within the next two minutes.

Drop Defiance + Pop Vengeance is like having a slightly better Shield Oath for 15s.

Drop Defiance + Pop Thrill & Convalescence is like having a slightly weaker Defiance for 20s.

Between these options and Unchained, it's like you're getting 50% uptime of Unchained DPS while tanking.

It's not always practical, but I find it useful vs Leviathan Ex, Titan Ex, GKMM Ex. Probably Melusine too if I actually MT'ed this fight.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

things .

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I used to do this on certain fight\s (mind you I have absolutely NO coil experience) on my PLD

but like on boss fights I would get a hefty lead in hate, then switch to Sword Oath. I was yelled at by one of my linkshell members for doing this but there wasn't any issue of hate loss.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Warriors can take it one step further and use their defensive cooldowns as offensive cooldowns. Dropping Defiance and popping defensive cooldowns is like having Unchained up. It's safe to do as long as aggro is solid and as long as you know that you won't need these cooldowns (defensively) within the next two minutes.

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Yup, been toying around with a STR build WAR (I main a BRD and alt a PLD) with i70 DPS accessories and respected 30VIT to 30STR, the difference is clearly noticeable in in dungeons and coil1. Hate shouldn't be much of an issue as I've noticed I could easily rip hate off a similarly geared PLD in shield oath. Last night I did a critical BB @ 1250 dmg without in defiance mode and it ripped hate off a i90+ PLD in shield oath stance.

Still learning how to WAR, but as long as you survive, a STR build WAR is pretty amazing.

Actually i can agree kukurumei:
STR build is good for perfect runs. Where every healer does right and WAR puts all CD on right time. You need to be flawless. I think STR build can be good for perfect teams, where everyone knows perfect what to do. VIT is good for team where errors can happen. I don't believe that you can beat Titan Extreme on first run, without echo on STR build with medium-good party. Even on full VIT it's hard fight.

After all this game is greatly party-based and you should allocate your stats depending on whole group. I dont feel so safe yet to respect to full STR because VIT gives me more time to react for things. I don't like to stay with 1k HP praying for some healing.

WAR abilities are primarily Strength based (inner beast and storm path) and become less effective when only putting points in Vit. You also don't have a shield and can only parry attacks (parry damage reduction is based off Strength). It makes no sense to me to put any points into Vit, it makes your WAR less effective.

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Originally Posted by ERob3000

WAR abilities are primarily Strength based (inner beast and storm path) and become less effective when only putting points in Vit. You also don't have a shield and can only parry attacks (parry damage reduction is based off Strength). It makes no sense to me to put any points into Vit, it makes your WAR less effective.

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You would still want to stack enough VIT to comfortably survive high damage attacks/phases that will effect you, but once you get to that point there isn't much point in stacking more VIT. Personally, I find that just over 8k HP is a good place for content I'm currently running (Head tank for Levi EX is probably the highest damage event I tank atm), but I do keep VIT options available for running progression on anything new my group may want to try.

Skull_Angel's approach is the appropriate one. Switching out Vit gear for Str gear as it suits you/and considering the fight and content that is in front of you.