ilvl Requirement "The Broken System"

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

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^ this.

also, I think we should be able to see a player's iLv when we examine them. i'd even go a step further and say that separate player level and item level is a stupid idea to begin with. I think a players level should have to be the same as the gear they want to wear; too late for that now tho.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

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Another interesting side to the same coin there is no ilvl requirements to any of the low level content. I remember leveling up my alt in the Lightning returns gear playing as a GLD in the dungeon Sastasha Seagrot, a lvl 15-18 dungeon and I got the crap kicked out of me, not because I was in lvl 15 gear b/c that did not really mater but because a tank should not be using dps class gear, something I fixed with a quick trip to a NPC. Also having only a lvl 10 weapon at that point did not help, didn't do my lvl 15 class quest yet. I had to work my ass off to hold hate, and stay alive, but we did it.

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

Using that logic all crafted gear needs to be bumped up 10 ilvl's because it can be melded. ilvl 70 would be come ilvl 80 and ilvl 90 would become ilvl 100

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Incorrect. All crafted gear has a cap for every stat that is based on the ilvl. That's why you can only meld a little, say Determination on a piece with it already on it, or none if it's already capped in the case of some HQ items. Also why you can meld a bunch of determination if the item has none to begin with.

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Originally Posted by waldo

Have I opened a can of worms here? Oh noes!!!
PS: I wouldn't fault anyone for doing it.

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Eh PS isnt that big a deal nor are the other (Hard) dungeons. But yeah ever once in a while Ill get copperbell or mannor hard with DPS no where near geared for the task.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Incorrect. All crafted gear has a cap for every stat that is based on the ilvl. That's why you can only meld a little, say Determination on a piece with it already on it, or none if it's already capped in the case of some HQ items. Also why you can meld a bunch of determination if the item has none to begin with.

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There is truth to what you say that the main stats on the items are capped, However take the ilvl 90 crafted healing gloves 18 Vit 18 Mnd 11 Det 21 Crit.
Now we meld on 4 more det, 12 Pie, and 18 SpS. We now have 18 Vit 18 Mnd 15 Det 21 Crit 12 Pie 18 SpS lets compare them to the ilvl 100/110 gear.

Crafted Soldery Soldery + 1
ilvl 90 ilvl 100 ilvl 110
18 Vit 22 Vit 25 Vit
18 Mnd 21 Mnd 24 Mnd
15 Det 11 Det 12 Det
21 Crit
12 Pie
18 SpS 23 SpS 25 SpS
5 Acc 5 Acc

Looking at this I see a Gain in 4 Vit 3 Mnd 5 SpS 5 Acc, But a loss in 4 Det 21 Crit and 18 Pie just between the ilvl 90 crafted and ilvl 100 Soldery.

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Originally Posted by necrosis

Eh PS isnt that big a deal nor are the other (Hard) dungeons. But yeah ever once in a while Ill get copperbell or mannor hard with DPS no where near geared for the task.

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I have had this happen to me once or twice. Tanks love it when they are the top of the dps in a dungeon :rolleyes:, and did > then 50% of the damage to mobs and bosses, with the healer pulling a close second.

We had to get a bit creative doing copperbell hard the other day, took us 5 trys but some how me managed to hit the DPS requirements and killed it before the crystals ran out.

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

There is truth to what you say that the main stats on the items are capped, However take the ilvl 90 crafted healing gloves 18 Vit 18 Mnd 11 Det 21 Crit.
Now we meld on 4 more det, 12 Pie, and 18 SpS. We now have 18 Vit 18 Mnd 15 Det 21 Crit 12 Pie 18 SpS lets compare them to the ilvl 100/110 gear.

Crafted Soldery Soldery + 1
ilvl 90 ilvl 100 ilvl 110
18 Vit 22 Vit 25 Vit
18 Mnd 21 Mnd 24 Mnd
15 Det 11 Det 12 Det
21 Crit
12 Pie
18 SpS 23 SpS 25 SpS
5 Acc 5 Acc

Looking at this I see a Gain in 4 Vit 3 Mnd 5 SpS 5 Acc, But a loss in 4 Det 21 Crit and 18 Pie just between the ilvl 90 crafted and ilvl 100 Soldery.

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And that's what you're missing, 3 Mind may not seem like much when you look at straight numbers, but it has a much bigger impact than any secondary stat. It really also depends on what class or job you compare for as to whether or not the melded will even be good or not.

Weight it the same as Soldiery cost.

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Main        910        13.6%
Sub        390        5.8%

Head        495        7.4%
Body        825        12.3%
Hand        495        7.4%
Waist        375        5.6%
Legs        825        12.3%
Feet        495        7.4%

Neck        375        5.6%
Ear        375        5.6%
Wrist        375        5.6%
Ring        375        5.6%
Ring        375        5.6%

Total        6685        100.0%

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Originally Posted by ispano

And that's what you're missing, 3 Mind may not seem like much when you look at straight numbers, but it has a much bigger impact than any secondary stat. It really also depends on what class or job you compare for as to whether or not the melded will even be good or not.

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I know what your saying the reason I picked the healing Gloves is because the secondary stats suck on the ilvl 100 and ilvl 110 gloves.

@ 69 Magic Damage and 400 potency going from 493-496 Mind is about a 4 hp heal increase without crit
but once you factor in the 21 crit that 3 points of mnd is worthless you end up with a 3 hp loss yes I know were talking a change of 3-4 hp on a heal but the point is that ilvl 100 > meld ilvl 90 > ilvl 100 > ilvl 90 for most parts.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Let's add a little reality to this perspective:

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Sometimes it's easier to point out what an issue is by describing an extreme example of the issue. That doesn't mean that the extreme example is either typical or likely, nor that the issue is limited to such extreme examples.

True, it's unlikely for someone to be wearing/wielding all level 10 armor/weapons when they have level 90 jewelry. But it is quite possible for someone to have an odd assortment of items at a wide range of iLevels and, if they happened to have better luck when it came to accessories than they did with getting a good weapon or chest piece, their average iLevel might give a false impression of what content their gear is suited to. (And it's not just limited to people trying to cheat the system, since the player themself may be confused by the average iLevel, especially when they're new enough not to know the difficulty of various instances.)

Making the average iLevel into a weighted average could make it come at least closer to being a decent representation of how good your gear is. Not perfect still, but improvement is improvement. And it should be a relatively simple improvement to make. After all, it doesn't require the items and their iLevels to change. Just the way those iLevels are averaged together would.

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are not spiritbonding and acting in ways only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are doing this only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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What do you feel the issue is?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,
While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are doing this only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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Thats the exact result of a system where gearscore is calculated by item levels rather than actual total bonus "power" that comes from the items.

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Originally Posted by IzumiRaito

Thats the exact result of a system where gearscore is calculated by item levels rather than actual total bonus "power" that comes from the items.

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Clearly we need Vegeta on the case then.

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Originally Posted by IzumiRaito

Thats the exact result of a system where gearscore is calculated by item levels rather than actual total bonus "power" that comes from the items.

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SO true./10char

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are doing this only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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you may want to clarify your post before people think its OK to report people for spiritbonding. i was able to make sense of it but this post is already being misintepreted in other threads by people who think it is now ok to vote kick/report people for spiritbonding

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Clearly we need Vegeta on the case then.

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So much this.

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Originally Posted by alhandra

you may want to clarify your post before people think its OK to report people for spiritbonding. i was able to make sense of it but this post is already being misintepreted in other threads by people who think it is now ok to vote kick/report people for spiritbonding

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I clarified my post a bit. Thanks for the suggestion!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are doing this only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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Then your team needs to go back a rethink things.

A straight average system is broken, since gear that gives lots of Def/MDef and accessories that only give +1/+1 are not equal in terms of being able to complete higher level content. While most of the Examples for the system being broken, in this thread are blatant attempts at trolling/harassment and if seen should be reported like you say. Using the Free AF job quest gear + GC weapon + ilevel 90 accessories, will get you into almost all content, without you having enough Def/MDef to survive it and its the most likely upgrade path that new people will follow, since their accessories will be the most lacking due to not being given any from quests rewards.

And if wearing lower level or offclass gear for Spiritbonding is now not acceptable at all, during Dungeons. I am really going to consider quitting and only coming back for patch months. At least the way I do it anyway, that is only some right side accessories while having my other equipped gear(right class) be so over-ileveled that I still meet the ilevel requirements for the Dungeon with nothing equipped in those spots. Since really the only things left in the game for me to do is farm dungeons for vanity, finish gearing up my crafters and atma farm. And I can't stand atma farming anymore, going on 25+ hours without a drop, Really who ever thought of having a Quest involve RNG in any way, should no longer be allowed to design quests. There never should be the possibility of never being able to complete a Quest.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are not spiritbonding and acting in ways only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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The issue of ilevel comes from it's inaccuracy. A healer could be wearing all i100 accessories but they are all STR which means those accessories do nothing to help their job and in fact makes them only an ilevel worthy of whatever they muster from the rest of their gear.

The best perspective to give would be this.

If a healer wearing weapon/head/body/legs/feet/waist all of i100 were fit for them but wearing 2 rings/earrings/wrist/neck pieces that were all STR and if all the gear was i100 then technically if you cut out the useless gear that does nothing for them they are ilevel 54 because the accesories they are using do not provide anything useful for their job/services they are relying purely on their main gear for attributes.

What the Dev team should try to look into is not an ilevel but rather an istat based on the job being used. Rather than saying oh it's ok if you are using i100 gear even with STR gear that does nothing for yout job it should be oh you need mnd 500 to be able to do this and to obtain mnd 500 you just need i70 full gear that provides mnd for that job.

That's where the problem lies because if a player enters an instance say a healer and they aren't using a full set of mnd gear but they are still seen as irequired then they are hurting the party because in reality they aren't properly geared for the event.

As a healer i like high vit so i decide to stack it on the right.
All my left is 100 + 1 soon to be i100 belt. So it's pretty funny how my ilvl is considered i97 for whm.

They should seriously make 2 separate ilvls, 1 for your total class/job specific gear and 1 for your overall gear equips.

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Originally Posted by ispano

And that's what you're missing, 3 Mind may not seem like much when you look at straight numbers, but it has a much bigger impact than any secondary stat. It really also depends on what class or job you compare for as to whether or not the melded will even be good or not.

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I think you're also overlooking the 12 Piety. If we're talking White Mage Piety is a vital stat that should be enhanced every chance you get. 12 Piety may only give a couple more casts of Cure, but each casting of Cure is a chance to get a free Cure II. And a free Cure II means more mp for the next few Cures to follow. Also 21 Crit is a vital stat for Scholars so can't discount that, either, but I think there's a drop that gives better Crit in one of the Coils.

the easiest way to fix this is to not allow job based equipment to be used by other jobs.. i.e. no healers with int/str/vit/crafting equip or if you do chose to keep it the way it is.. make those count AGAINST your ilv.. like a lv 45 crafting ring would lower your ilv by adding a -45 to equation ^^

Is it not okay to kick people spiritbonding...? I'm not going to run a dungeon and do the work of 2 people just because some lazy-ass decides to SB in a dungeon.

Camate didn't say it but they really can't touch this issue either. If they weighted each slot piece, then the day that patch gets implemented, people will get screwed over with item level requirements.

People who have once been eligible to do certain dungeons - who have already participated in and completed those dungeons - may suddenly be unable to do them.

Take me for example. I have my level 45/50 class set, and when I dinged 50 I had various low level rings/neck/wrist. The first items I spent my tomes of mythology on were those low level accessories that would offer the biggest jumps to my item level so I can qualify for dungeons. If this patch were implemented today, my item level is mostly boosted by these accessories so I would probably dip down to mid/high 50's. If not for my Gae Bolg which I just earned, I would not qualify for Hard Mode Titan, even though the fact I have Gae Bolg means I successfully defeated him already so it was doable with my "unacceptable" gear score under the new rules that wouldn't have allowed me to fight and kill him to get Gae Bolg. I went on a slight tangent there but my main point is that there will be many funky situations where people will get locked out of content based on their new item level scores that they were allowed to do previously. That's a real problem to your suggestion that doesn't have a good solution.

But that's just an addendum to what Camate said, which really is the solution to this "issue". If someone is abusing item levels to harass players in dungeons, which would be so incredibly rare, the current reporting mechanism works just fine in handling those cases.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

Take me for example. I have my level 45/50 class set, and when I dinged 50 I had various low level rings/neck/wrist. The first items I spent my tomes of mythology on were those low level accessories that would offer the biggest jumps to my item level so I can qualify for dungeons. If this patch were implemented today, my item level is mostly boosted by these accessories so I would probably dip down to mid/high 50's.

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That means u exploited the weakness of the system.

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Originally Posted by Airget

What the Dev team should try to look into is not an ilevel but rather an istat based on the job being used. Rather than saying oh it's ok if you are using i100 gear even with STR gear that does nothing for yout job it should be oh you need mnd 500 to be able to do this and to obtain mnd 500 you just need i70 full gear that provides mnd for that job.

That's where the problem lies because if a player enters an instance say a healer and they aren't using a full set of mnd gear but they are still seen as irequired then they are hurting the party because in reality they aren't properly geared for the event.

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Secondary stats also provide valuable increase in ability to perform character role. Otherwise why would people bother to pentameld highest ilvl crafted gear? A weighted sum of primary AND secondary attributes is the way to calculate the REAL total "power level" of the character

Guess I 'exploited a weakness' when I got my Titan win for my Artemis in Toxotes gear. Wait, this was before they added iLevel to the game. All iLevel has added is a numeric value to what used to be, "Must have relic" party formation. And it's done so terribly with little regard to actual player capability. I remember videos of entire parties killing Titan in swimsuits, and heard stories of White Mages tanking Titan. Yes, I know Titan isn't the benchmark he used to be, but all of this was before iLevel and noone suffered for it like alot of people seem to think. I dare say if iLevel were gone tomorrow, very few would even notice and even fewer would care.

What I hate is people who spirit bond gathering and crafting gear in an instance. Lower level I understand and don't really care, as long as it's job appropriate.

I think you should NOT be able to zone into duty finder instances wearing crafting/gathering gear period. It is rude to the others there.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Guess I 'exploited a weakness' when I got my Titan win for my Artemis in Toxotes gear. Wait, this was before they added iLevel to the game. All iLevel has added is a numeric value to what used to be, "Must have relic" party formation. And it's done so terribly with little regard to actual player capability. I remember videos of entire parties killing Titan in swimsuits, and heard stories of White Mages tanking Titan. Yes, I know Titan isn't the benchmark he used to be, but all of this was before iLevel and noone suffered for it like alot of people seem to think. I dare say if iLevel were gone tomorrow, very few would even notice and even fewer would care.

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As long as u dont die to avoidable mechanics, echo and other ppl gear can cover for the slightly less power level than u should have. Requiring ilvl 70 for titan hm was always a joke for me.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

What I hate is people who spirit bond gathering and crafting gear in an instance. Lower level I understand and don't really care, as long as it's job appropriate.

I think you should NOT be able to zone into duty finder instances wearing crafting/gathering gear period. It is rude to the others there.

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Calculating power level by primary and secondary stats would force players sb'ing crafting/gathering gear to cover the missing stats with even stonger other gear (because the sb gear would give them + zero power) , ensuring that they still meet the minimal power level requirement for instance.

my only gripe with ilvl boosting is when dps or healers i examine in dungeons are using inappropriate gear for their class like fending accessories just so they can qualify for the ilvl requirement of party finders or certain duties.

only need to lock accessories to their classes and the problems pretty much over
vit is arguably useful to everyone, so maybe allow whm to equip mnd or vit and blm to equip int or vit etc

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Originally Posted by Gesser

What do you feel the issue is?

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Yeah I'd love to see how the team came up with thinking a person in all i90's execpt for an i100 ring and an i55 weapon contributes as much as someone in all i90's, an i100 weapon, and 1 i55 ring.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.

While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are not spiritbonding and acting in ways only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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Since the newest patch has all but required everyone to start SBing, can we please get some clarifications on what's allowed and what's considered just causing trouble for others? This is a pretty debatable topic with views ranging from a few pieces being ok to a full set of CP/GP gear being acceptable as long as the item level requirement is met. I know I've personally reported varying ranges of people SBing gear and have gotten different replies based on how much the person was wearing and what type it was. so some clarification about what's acceptable and what's reportable would be really nice because at this point based on my own thread about this subject I can easily foresee people walking in with full GP/CP or offclass gear because no one except a few members of the community such as myself have said it's wrong. So these potentially offending players have just told us to shove it because you SE haven't said anything about what's ok and what isn't . So hopefully before the servers come up please give us some clarification before people start running wild and potentially reporting each other for that which may or may not be against the rules

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Originally Posted by Highlanderx

And if wearing lower level or offclass gear for Spiritbonding is now not acceptable at all, during Dungeons. I am really going to consider quitting and only coming back for patch months. .

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I'm just trying to wrap some logic around this...Why exactly is it that people who want to SB can't do so in PF and get 3 other people with the same intent? If you don't build it in party finder where you set the conditions, then majority rules---or at least, that's the way it should be.

I think we still see fully geared peeps that still dies to the mechanics of some trials, where some undergeared can complete it.

Same for yesterday that my FC mate was doing 2 Healer's job cause the other WHM kept on dying.

If you can't dodge, even with full gear iLvl150, you will still die.

For the accessories, a ring with STR can have VIT as well. It has 'some' uses. If some are using it to boost their iLvl to enter and if you clear it, where is the problem?

Like artifact gear that is specific to some jobs, I wouldn't mind if they did the same with accessories.

As for spiritbonding, I think the same applies: accessories for the appropriate job. and If with it you can clear the Event, where is the harm?

*let's wait for some fixes in patch 4.0 ;)

Gear level won't help someone if they just aren't good at dodging and whatnot, but onto my main point: I find it funny that people are complaining about ilevel now when you guys wanted dungeons to have the requirements in the first place. Guess there's no pleasing people. :cool:

I think people are making excuses when they lose and blame it on others, it can never be them, it has to be the person with crappy gear so they begin checking everyone and singling them out, then that person is automatically trolling or ruining the game or the game is broken.

"I can't win, oh well let me blame someone else" "its not me I have all the best gear"

Reminds me of when I was doing garuda extreme I was killing the both the garuda doubles and main tank still seemed to die and he says "I advice you all to watch the video"

clearly I watched everyone do it correctly split them apart kill second but he dies whm curing perfect, he gets upset and leaves, was his fault for running outside of the circle each time, just because someone has good gear doesn't mean you are good, anyone can dress like a pro wrestler but you are not one.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Yeah I'd love to see how the team came up with thinking a person in all i90's execpt for an i100 ring and an i55 weapon contributes as much as someone in all i90's, an i100 weapon, and 1 i55 ring.

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According to that other thread, gear doesnt matter as long as you know how to dance. :)

They can't just do straight istat. Take warrior for example. Some warriors do play with full vit, power to them, but me and my friends prefer our warrior in his strength set. He is still fully capable of tanking any dungeon in full strength, and pulls out really good dps numbers for a tank. If he tried to solo queue he would be forced into his vit set for alot of content, although he could just change mid run. There in lies another problem. If we were doing istat, I could just jump on my sch full mind set, and then insinde the dungeon just switch to spiritbinding. To be honest, both the ilvl and istat requirements are irrelevant as long as you can change gear in instances. In my opinion they are just gates meant as guidelines. I'm pretty sure I could kill all of the extremes far below the ilvl suggested and especially the coil turns, as they were first cleared at far lower ilvls on release.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

There are currently no plans to change the method for averaging item levels as the team feels that this is not the real issue.


While in some cases players may be wearing lower level equipment for spiritbonding purposes, we understand that there are cases where players are not spiritbonding and acting in ways only to cause trouble for others. We’d like players to report anyone who is behaving inappropriately within dungeons or in general.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I clarified my post a bit. Thanks for the suggestion!

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Originally Posted by alhandra

you may want to clarify your post before people think its OK to report people for spiritbonding. i was able to make sense of it but this post is already being misintepreted in other threads by people who think it is now ok to vote kick/report people for spiritbonding

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Maybe it would be sensible to put more wolfs back in Natalan wolf camp and add more mobs in other places such as the Mines in Outer La Noscea etc and there will be no people trying to Spiritbond inside dungeons, a place where you should be properly geared and focusing on gearing and obtaining tomes instead of spiritbonding to get your Novus or melding your DoH jobs?

Please dont create issues, please bring back proper places for things that are now are in high demand. Thank you.