WAR Adjustments

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sibyll

Thank you. I didn't think it'd be that large of a difference, but I guess it's not coincidence that it's pretty close to the damage buff from Maim on Warrior's. However, considering that you only get 5 job skills it really seems like a waste to have one be just a flat damage boost (regardless of how good the boost is), but I'll drop it lest I get more off topic.

---

Well ill just add that id rather take a good stance than a useless skill like some jobs get. Overall i think that pld gets pretty much best job abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fue

Well ill just add that id rather take a good stance than a useless skill like some jobs get. Overall i think that pld gets pretty much best job abilities.

---

The tanks do, most definitely, get the best job abilities.

SwO is definitely severely underestimated, largely because most people don't realize how it works or how much your auto-attack does (or even how it works). In general, a tank does about 300-350ish potency/GCD. Your auto-attack constitutes 83.33 potency/GCD of that (which is roughly 25% of your total damage). SwO provides you with an extra 50 potency per swing (not per GCD) which means that it actually provides an extra ~55-57 potency/GCD, which is a ~14-18% increase in potency/GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The tanks do, most definitely, get the best job abilities.

---

Their cross class skills are amazing compared to some of the other classes. Certain classes have far more slots than they have useful cross class skills and in some cases the cross class skill have almost a carbon copy version within the main class itself. White Mage stands out as a particularly bad cross class skill set. Mind you, not bad in the sense that the skills they receive are bad, but bad in the sense that it's an illusion of choice.

Then you have cases like Provoke and Blood for Blood where you are basically required, or in the case of Provoke literally required, to get these skills just so that you can play your class in later content. If you are going to have tank swap mechanics shouldn't a Provoke-like skill be available in the base class? I'm not implying that obtaining Provoke is a time consuming process, it isn't. The point is that if these skills are required to complete content then why not just include them in the class itself. In it's current state the Cross Class system is more or less illusion of choice with a few skills that are required and several skills that are unnecessary/useless.

And I found it laughable that the OP was complaining about Warrior CC skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Your auto-attack constitutes 83.33 potency/GCD of that (which is roughly 25% of your total damage).

---

How did you get that number by chance? Just curious, the AA rating on most PLD swords is in the low to upper 30's depending on delay.

Also a nice little thing about Sword Oath is that if they ever decide to add faster weapons for Pld its dmg will only go up cause its basically just adding 50potency "ability" to every auto.

What's with all the hate for Holmgang? It does its job fine. It provides you with 6 seconds wherein if you would have died, you don't. I cannot count the number of times this has saved me in Turns 8 and 9. I also learned something new about it from this thread... did not know I could interrupt the golem abilities in T9 with its pull effect. Even more use provided from it.

The only real complaints I can make about the ability is that I wish its range were longer and/or I wish that you couldn't be killed when in the chain animation... but these are QoL adjustments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

How did you get that number by chance? Just curious, the AA rating on most PLD swords is in the low to upper 30's depending on delay.

---

Your auto-attacks are set to do 100 potency every 3 seconds. The standard GCD 2.5 seconds. Ergo, you get 83.33 potency/GCD from auto-attacks (2.5 / 3).

You can verify this by taking your weapon damage, dividing it by 3 and then multiplying it by your auto-attack speed. This will give you your auto-attack damage. Conversely, if you want to verify that it's 100 potency every 3 seconds, you can divide your auto-attack damage by your auto-attack speed and then divide your weapon damage by that number, which will always come out to 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talouin

What's with all the hate for Holmgang?

---

It's not hate for Holmgang. It's a desire for it to become more useful since it tries to do too much all at once which prevents it from being especially good at any of its functions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Your auto-attacks are set to do 100 potency every 3 seconds. The standard GCD 2.5 seconds. Ergo, you get 83.33 potency/GCD from auto-attacks (2.5 / 3).

You can verify this by taking your weapon damage, dividing it by 3 and then multiplying it by your auto-attack speed. This will give you your auto-attack damage. Conversely, if you want to verify that it's 100 potency every 3 seconds, you can divide your auto-attack damage by your auto-attack speed and then divide your weapon damage by that number, which will always come out to 3.

---

Thanks, Kitru. That math works out I suppose, though I don't quite get where the 100 potency comes from.. Maybe it's just over my head lol.. Like the Bravura Animus, for example, 56.18 AA 3.44 delay, I guess I thought that was a 56.18 potency AA per 3.44 sec

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

That math works out I suppose, though I don't quite get where the 100 potency comes from.

---

Potency is basically a multiplier to your weapon damage, which is then tweaked by attack power and determination, with each point of potency representing 1% of your weapon damage. As such, a 280 potency attack will do 280% of the damage that your auto-attack does over 3 seconds (which is 100 potency as previously mentioned). It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the simple version.

Only thing i would change about holmgang is make it so that it only binds the target and lets you move in the cast range radius.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fue

Only thing i would change about holmgang is make it so that it only binds the target and lets you move in the cast range radius.

---

Now that would actually make sense lol

I still think the bind is virtually useless, there are already many other jobs with binding abilities. I wonder if, hindsight being 20/20, Holmgang would have been better off trying to be the Warrior's version of Provoke. Many people dislike the idea of the taunt being a cross-class, Holmgang could have acted like Provoke, just a threat copy that ties the enemy to you briefly. I dunno, just a thought XD. I like it as an oh crap button, it's definitely contributed to a few saves, I just hate eating AoEs, it's like you've popped your oh crap button because you're about to die, now stand here and eat 1 or 2 extra AoE.

Yes the worst thing about Holmgang is not being able to move.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I still think the bind is virtually useless, there are already many other jobs with binding abilities.

---

The original intent of Holmgang was for it to be the WAR equivalent of Tempered Will (identical, the bind makes you immune to physics, the target bind is just there to let you still wail of your target; shorter CD to account for the utility of binding the target). Without the bind, WAR wouldn't have any physics immunity ability.

This is indicative of the entire problem with Holmgang: it tries to do too much. The bind makes it less useful as a survival CD, but it's the only reason that it acts as a physics CD. The pull/bind has a mediocre range and marginal utility with such a long CD, but it's required because of the bind. The survival aspect of it is decent, but it's crippled by the short duration required of the self-bind and target bind.

WAR should just get 2 abilities at 42: a pull/bind and a separate survival CD (the physics could be tied to either). It would allow for the functions to actually have the CDs/ranges/durations that those functions deserve rather than tying them all together and having them get in each others' way.

Well that makes a bit more sense I suppose, though even for a physics CD there are only 2 real situations I can think of to use it, Titan Ex and T5. It's marginally useful in Titan Ex, but impossible to use in T5 (compared to PLD tempered will for grabbing the other snake adds).. EDIT: I guess you could use holmgang if you got targeted by DB on the way over to the other snakes, "hold up guys, in 6 sec I got them" lol.. I know War is supposed MT, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well that makes a bit more sense I suppose, though even for a physics CD there are only 2 real situations I can think of to use it

---

Yeah, even when it was simply a physics CD it sucked because the only reason it made you immune was because it bound you in place. PLD basically got all of the functionality that Holmgang is supposed to provide (then and now) separated into multiple abilities each of which is stronger than the function bound to Holmgang (6 secs of can't die compared to HG; self-bind compared to Tempered Will; bind/pull utility compared to silence/stunlock/cover). The relative weakness doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they're all tied up in a single ability; it would be like having to activate HG, Cover, and Tempered Will at the same time any time you wanted to use one of those functions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coth_X

By that logic, we should take away pld's riot combo since it restores the resource they use for aoe hate.

---

I didn't know PLD had a FREE skill that INSTANTLY restore 40% of their max MP. :p

And it seems like a lot of people forget that Holmgang can be used TWICE more than Hallowed Ground. If the duration was the same, PLD's trademark invicible skill would just be a lessen WAR one. No Thanks.
You can also learn how to time holmgang properly, or refrain your WS so that you can pop Inner Beast precisely when you need it...in short, know how to play the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I didn't know PLD had a FREE skill that INSTANTLY restore 40% of their max MP. :p

And it seems like a lot of people forget that Holmgang can be used TWICE more than Hallowed Ground. If the duration was the same, PLD's trademark invicible skill would just be a lessen WAR one. No Thanks.
You can also learn how to time holmgang properly, or refrain your WS so that you can pop Inner Beast precisely when you need it...in short, know how to play the job.

---

Getting anything really useful out of Holmgang requires either precise coordination with your healers so that they don't drop a big heal right as you pop it or healers that aren't topping you off before spike damage. It's generally counter intuitive for a healer to not heal you when you are low to the point that you'd use Holmgang and healing you for a big amount right as the tank pops Holmgang means it did nothing but bind you. This skill only functions as a defensive cool down if you take damage that would've killed you. Compare this to Hallowed Ground which is always a defensive cool down, unless you aren't being attacked.

Getting use out of Holmgang doesn't just involve knowing when to cast it, but also excellent coordination with your healers so that it actually functions like a defensive CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it seems like a lot of people forget that Holmgang can be used TWICE more than Hallowed Ground. If the duration was the same, PLD's trademark invicible skill would just be a lessen WAR one. No Thanks.

---

Being immune to all damage is quite a bit different than not dying. Magnitude of effect plays a very important part in the balancing process, which you seem to be forgetting here. Even if Holmgang's duration was increased, HG would still be better as an uber-CD since you can use it when you're about to take a crapton of damage as opposed to when you're low on hp and about to take a crapton of damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Yeah, even when it was simply a physics CD it sucked because the only reason it made you immune was because it bound you in place. PLD basically got all of the functionality that Holmgang is supposed to provide (then and now) separated into multiple abilities each of which is stronger than the function bound to Holmgang (6 secs of can't die compared to HG; self-bind compared to Tempered Will; bind/pull utility compared to silence/stunlock/cover). The relative weakness doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they're all tied up in a single ability; it would be like having to activate HG, Cover, and Tempered Will at the same time any time you wanted to use one of those functions.

---

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

---

The original design of the skill leads me to believe it was intended to be Tempered Will combined with Provoke, but instead of throwing you to the top of the aggro table it just stuck the mob to you so you could build threat. The problem is that the 180 sec CD limits this use.

They could just drop the can't die portion of it and keep the self-bind/physics immunity but give it a shorter CD comparatively to Tempered Will, maybe 80 or 90 seconds. This would fit into the general design philosophy of Warriors skills having lower CDs/lesser effects (Foresight) or better effects but a draw back (pacification on Berserk).

They could probably throw in a skill to fill in for the "can't die" mechanic if they really want to and have some more flexibility in terms of effects, CD and duration as Kitru suggested.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I didn't know PLD had a FREE skill that INSTANTLY restore 40% of their max MP. :p

---

Well, PLD doesn't have to burn their tp to do aoe enmity and last I checked my pld, had like 1500 mp or something like that.

I don't get tp starved anymore, but I still would rather have lancer invigorate and feint rather than second wind and featherfoot. I still don't get how one of 2 tanks in the game that can only parry, doesn't get the improved parry cross class skill :/

Removing the can't die function would plummet the usefulness of the skill back to pre-2.1.. Aside from the T9 mechanic (which, is that a specific thing that occurs from using Holmgang or do all "binds" work in that manner?), there's no real need to use Holmgang except for the can't die function.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

---

That's actually one of the best ideas I've read. There's some precedent for having deep skills be cross-class (Mantra is 42), but I would be concerned about putting "default" functionality into a deep cross-class ability. The fact that it's a somewhat specialized function could mitigate that problem though: if you want to be able to ignore Landslide/whatever, you're gonna need to get GLD to 42 and then choose it as a cross-class (and there are 2 "optional" slots for WAR so it's fine; if they turn the pull/bind into a legitimate Provoke, it would actually balance out completely because we wouldn't need Provoke any more).

Put Tempered Will on the CC list, and then split Holmgang into a 10 sec duration 180 sec CD cannot-die ability (that doesn't require a target) and a 6 sec 6y bind/pull on a 60-180 CD (personally, I would like to see the range extended to 15y to match Tomahawk, the CD reduces to 60 sec so that it's on a useful time frame, and make it so that you're not bound, but the bind breaks if you move at all), both of which you get at 42. To turn it into a true WAR Provoke (since it's kind of absurd, imo, that WAR has to cross-class a fundamental tank skill), they could attach that effect to the pull/bind (giving it the range and CD necessary for Provoke would definitely necessitate cutting down heavily on the bind).

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coth_X

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

---

Because the devs have no problem with requiring cross-class skills for certain fundamental capabilities for a job.

WAR is designed around getting Featherfoot, Convalescence, and Provoke. Their CD suite and fundamental functions are both dependent upon cross-class.
PLD is designed around getting Foresight from MRD, even if it is laughably weak, it's still part of their CD suite.
BLM and SMN are both designed around getting Quelling and Raging Strikes from ARC. Their only real DPS CD and their threat drop are both cross-class, and both of those are fundamental requirements of a DPS.
SMN's AoE is designed around getting Blizz II from THM, and AoE is something that all casters are assumed to have.
SCH is designed around getting Cleric Stance and Protect from CNJ. CS is basically required for anything approaching soloing, and Protect is that buff that you're *always* supposed to have. You could probably count Stoneskin, too, since it's part of their healing toolkit.
All casters get Swiftcast from THM, and that's something that all casters are basically required to have.

It actually makes a lot of sense to build a job around the functionality you know it's going to steal from another class. When you're limiting the number of abilities to provide, it frees up space. It also forces players to level up more than 1 job to get various abilities, which the devs most definitely want (just look at the subclass reqs for a job).

There isn't a problem insofar as WAR doesn't get a native provoke; it's more of a question as to why it doesn't have native provoke functionality when there's an ability that could very easy carry that functionality. The reason might be as I indicated before (that the pull/bind effect would require a CD/range that isn't compatible with what the devs are going to require out of Provoke in content), but it's still a reasonable question to ask.

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coth_X

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

---

Well, a WAR could get away with not having Provoke; it would just require an insane level of cooperation and timing (I've actually done this with a friend of mine on a UW fight; we were both WARs and only used SE>SP except when we swapped, wherein we would use 2-3 BB combos to steal agg and then go back to SE>SP).

None of the cross-class abilities are *required* for play, but there is definitely functionality that is required by design that is cross-class.

I like the idea of turning Holmgang into a Marauder's version of Provoke, but not every enemy (bosses mainly) is susceptible to Bind. That might lead to a limitation in that you've bound yourself in place, and in the same skill, provoked the enemy, but it can still move and get away from you, thus wasting your provoke.

I would also assume that the pull of the chain from Holmgang is the same as knock-back, meaning that some enemies will also be immune to it as well.

My suggestion is therefore to remove the 'Can't Die' aspect from Holmgang and create a new Skill for that. Then you could extend the range of the pull of Holmgang's Chain and give it the effect of Provoke. In the event of an enemy being immune to knock-back, and therefore also presumably the pull, make it so that you use the chain to pull yourself to the enemy, like a gap closing skill akin to Monk's Shoulder Tackle.

Beyond two bosses I can think of (WP Flan Boss when it targets a random party member, and Brayflox HM Vangob's charge), the bind/self-bind aspect is pretty useless, so could be removed.

Or simply remove boss immunity from Holmgang.
You can call it a "Draw-In" effect if you don't want other jobs to "Bind" them.

outside of inner beast being off GCD and holmgang having a slightly longer reach, i can't imagine a single change that i'd like to see to warriors

personally, i like how the game is. i know a lot of people played world of warcraft before coming over to this game, but I don't think that classes have to see a handful of sweeping changes every other month.

nothing wrong with throwing out ideas for things that you want, but i don't feel like we are in need of an adjustment.

I don't understand why anybody would want Inner Beast to be off GCD.
You realise that any other cooldown mechanic won't let us use it that often, right ?

Well if it were off gcd it would make it more of a reactionary skill rather than knowing when the hit comes.
But it would also increase dps quite alot if the dmg would remain same.
I would be ok with this change aslong as theyd drop cd of scorn and spirits by 10s :)

Yea, IB offGCD might help in some situations, but it's not really necessary.. One situation where it seems to be a constant issue for me is conflags on T5, I always try to help dps them, particularly the fast conflags, sometimes though DS occurs right after I hit Maim or SE or whatever and it screws me.. I know with echo buff tank DPS isn't really req'd, but just a habit to kill things XD.. As for the DPS increase, it could be, but I think this was brought up a while back between Kitru, Traek and some others and if you are tanking you aren't going to blow IB just for a DPS increase, you would still use it as needed for mitigation. and even in an OT situation you'd have to be in Defiance to use it which is gonna lower your DPS anyways. Yes, on paper it's a DPS increase, but in a real tanking situation there might not be that much difference.

The problem with changing Holmgang to just a pull/provoke is obviously the CD, content is currently designed around the 40 sec Provoke CD. Then you would have to remove Provoke from Warrior CC skill list, since it wouldn't be balanced to have 1 tank with 2 taunts while the other just has one. There are really no existing abilities to give the can't die function too if you remove it from Holmgang. Maybe after a level cap increase or something where we will see some new abilities that can be sorted out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeyP666

I like the idea of turning Holmgang into a Marauder's version of Provoke, but not every enemy (bosses mainly) is susceptible to Bind. That might lead to a limitation in that you've bound yourself in place, and in the same skill, provoked the enemy, but it can still move and get away from you, thus wasting your provoke.

---

I don't think the solution is to remove the bind so much as make it optional.

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving. After activating it, for the next 6 seconds, as long as *you* don't move, neither can your target. If the target is immune to bind, you can end the bind effect immediately by just keeping on keeping on; if you need to move for whatever reason, you can do that, too; if you want to keep the target right where they are, it's basically unchanged.

This change alone would take care of a vast majority of the complaints about Holmgang. It would still have massively overloaded functionality preventing each function from actually being fully useful, but at least people would stop complaining about it hurting as much as helping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving.

---

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Back in 1.xx, MRD had "Rampage", that "fades upon moving", so the mechanic already exists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Or simply remove boss immunity from Holmgang.
You can call it a "Draw-In" effect if you don't want other jobs to "Bind" them.

---

Removing boss immunity to leash would be hilariously unbalancing and there's no way SE would do it. I wouldn't mind if the Holmgang leash acted as a stun effect though which let you interrupt a boss action but even that would need to be balanced carefully.

What they need to do right now, as the highest priority, without considering other possible future changes to Holmgang, is remove the goddamned root on the WAR from using it. That's a huge QoL improvement which can occur independently of other changes which would instantly make Holmgang useful in 99% of situations where it sucks now.

Edit: just read kitrus post and I agree that bind effect fade on movement would be fine too. As long as the WAR can move then I would be happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

I don't think the solution is to remove the bind so much as make it optional.

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving.

---

At the very least the devs could probably make a bind 'buff' clickable... like blood for blood. Vengeance now has two buff icons, could do the same for holmgang.