Patch 1.18: Miscellaneous Adjustments (07/14/2011)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Munba

It's always 22nd jst, so still 21nd in EU/NA.

---

Oh I see :O

They originally posted it back in the IV letter here:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...449d1b7c37eb49

I think a big fact being overlooked here is that the game wasn't designed to have the term "WHM" within 50 miles of either CON or THM - Having a "WHM" style character in the game is a new development, CON and THM are old classes; relics from the days SE thought they could get away with trying anything innovative at the cost of their own brand-recognition.

So yes; if the game was designed to have a BLM and a WHM, that would have been ridiculous - now, trying to add new WHM on an old system, you can either give Raise to the back-up healer with a lot of free time, or you can give it to the main healer, who not only kills people if they ever stop healing, but whose entire storyline focuses on relishing the misfortune of others and capitalizing on it.

Giving WHM abilities to the job who worships death and whose guild has hundreds of coffins in it sounds just as backwards to me. I just threw an idea out there that seemed to make sense - put the gloves back on.

I'd really like to know which classes will have new weapons. More to the point r50 weapons. I need some insider Martha Stewart facts. Should I sell or not? Lol

15min wait on Return when no KO? How will this do much good to stop death warping? Just seems like they thought they could solve another problem by slapping a timer on something.

edit: whoops wrong thread ^^ multiple tabs kill

Well, say that THM would indeed get WHM, he would have no Cure, Protect, Shell, Poisona, Paralyna etc, which would make absolutely no sense if they want to keep the job somewhat traditional.

If the plan is to make THM a healer, they should, in my humble opinion, call it something else than WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

15min wait on Return when no KO? How will this do much good to stop death warping? Just seems like they thought they could solve another problem by slapping a timer on something.

---

It just makes it easier to warp, instead of the usual running to a high lvl monster and saying hello. Timer is fine lol, how often ppl death warp anyways? more than once in 15 mins? what this would do is save time/embaressment and i think Yoshida said ppl death warping is a weird concept.

-

THM seems better WHM and CON seems like a BLM, they pribably giving raise to both for now, but refine later on, who knows if CON were to become BLM they probably let it keep R1 and give THM R1 R2 and R3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mug

Well, say that THM would indeed get WHM, he would have no Cure, Protect, Shell, Poisona, Paralyna etc, which would make absolutely no sense if they want to keep the job somewhat traditional.

If the plan is to make THM a healer, they should, in my humble opinion, call it something else than WHM.

---

Truth be told, I'm incredibly curious to know what they will end up assigning these classes for jobs. I'm by no means fighting for THM to be the WHM - don't get me wrong there. I'm simply defending the DevTeam's decision to give raise responsibilities to the job who will make better use of it at the present moment.

As for the issue you're concerned with, it wouldn't make sense for either of those classes to be called by either of those job titles.

The only thing that would make sense, imo, would be allowing both to choose their own path - for a conjurer to fall to the dark side, or a thaumaturge to find the worship of death to enhance the value of life. It'd be tricky letting both classes have access to both jobs, but aside from a MASSIVE retconning of both storylines and ability repertoires (which would ruin them in my opinion) I don't see any other option.

Perhaps someone could start a thread on this?

Possibly, those new "Jobs" are more like a set of special traits, bonuses and abilities/spells that allow you to fulfil a certain "holy trinity role" better in a party environment. That does not, however, necessarily imply that they are class-exclusive. An example.

WHM could give +30% healing efficiency, some high level WHM spells (Haste, Holy), reduced hate generation, but large maluses for ATT and MATT. Now you could slap that "WHM" on a CON "base class" to get a CON-WHM with powerful heals, but less effective elemental nukes. However, should the need arise, you could also strap it onto a THM. Or even on a MRD - but that would obviously make less sense.

BLM could, on the other hand, increase MATT and lower MP consumption, and again, you could strap it on a CON, a THM, or even a MRD (though few would do the latter). A PLD Job could increade DEF and MDEF, and give access to some special protective abilities - and lower attack in return. Again, you would be free to strap it onto a MRD (Great axe in full armor! A dependable wall of steel!), a GLD or even a THM.

So since there is a "logical", but not an "exclusive" connection between jobs and classes, freedom would be maintained within reasonable constraints.

...

Which was the conclusion I reached when thinking about how they would include the BRD job, for which there is no immediate expression in a class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mug

Well, say that THM would indeed get WHM, he would have no Cure, Protect, Shell, Poisona, Paralyna etc, which would make absolutely no sense if they want to keep the job somewhat traditional.

If the plan is to make THM a healer, they should, in my humble opinion, call it something else than WHM.

---

Well say that THM is BLM, he wouldn't have any elemental nuke... they still have to move some spells, the difference is that lore wise THM fits better WHM and CON is a perfect BLM.
Also the AoE are definitely toward CON>BLM, THM>WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcide

Well say that THM is BLM, he wouldn't have any elemental nuke... they still have to move some spells, the difference is that lore wise THM fits better WHM and CON is a perfect BLM.
Also the AoE are definitely toward CON>BLM, THM>WHM.

---

See what I mean? Good points all around. Gonna be a challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinsui

So since there is a "logical", but not an "exclusive" connection between jobs and classes, freedom would be maintained within reasonable constraints.

---

This could have been if not for the fact that, in an interview I'm too lazy to go dig up, I do believe that Yoshida-san did, in fact, say that it would be "One job per one class," and that if they did let jobs equip different weapons, it would be an afterthought and one that came a long way down the road.

I would give both WHM and BLM to CON. Everything else makes very little sense to me. I know what you mean about THM being the more appropriate healer, but I'd rather give their job a different name.

Hopefully it will all make sense in the end. :)

That one crossed my mind early on as well, give both of them to CON and have THM be the glorious come-back of Time Mage - but then we run into another problem: If it is both WHM and BLM, then CON controls both polarities of the elements it commands - both light and darkness, good and evil, astral and umb- ah, crap.

I agree with you, but we already know that for the moment we'll have only 1 job per class and we already know the mage's ones will be whm and blm :/ why when they have to make a choice they always seem to choose the dumbest solution? ; ;

Quote:

---

This could have been if not for the fact that, in an interview I'm too lazy to go dig up, I do believe that Yoshida-san did, in fact, say that it would be "One job per one class," and that if they did let jobs equip different weapons, it would be an afterthought and one that came a long way down the road.

---

True, and I clearly remember that passage myself.

However, this leaves me out of logical solutions for the problem at hand. As such, I am just as interested in how they are going to pull off this stunt as you are.

(P.S.: I still believe that the scenario I painted above is the most likely one; but we'll see).

Ah, another reason for why THM is unlikely to be the WHM class.
In Japanese, THM is called 呪術士, which most literally translates to guy-who-uses-cursing-techniques. Not very WHM, is it? ;)

P.S.: Which makes the English "Thaumaturge" the most contrieved and awkward translation they could have come up with in the first place. For reference, the proper translation for CON is "Illusionist". And as it stands, even "Elementalist" would have been more accurate than "Conjurer", which sounds like some sort of summoner to me.

Spells they currently get might get switched, gained at higher lvl, or complete gone when they revamp the spell/skill set. They probably doing this temporarly for the dungeons and adjustments.

Regarding the WHMxBLM discussion, would be nice if the job gets a bonus for being that class, like being a CON would give bonus MATK, and WHM gets reduced recast on healing enhancing spells, so the jobs get specialized in certain area instead of having BLM be as good a healer as WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If it is both WHM and BLM, then CON controls both polarities of the elements it commands - both light and darkness, good and evil, astral and umb- ah, crap.

---

It does seem a bit overpowered maybe, but then, CON already does this already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcide

I agree with you, but we already know that for the moment we'll have only 1 job per class and we already know the mage's ones will be whm and blm :/ why when they have to make a choice they always seem to choose the dumbest solution? ; ;

---

Well, I'm hoping that they just gave us the wrong names for the jobs. Or that WHM is just a temporary name, until they decide what to call it.

Oh, no, I don't mean overpowered - I just mean that if we try to separate CON from THM by giving it both WHM and BLM, then we accidentally end up giving CON the powers of "Astral and Umbral" which is actually the foundation of being a THM in the first place. Whoops! There's really not much of an escape from the logic-loop SE has backed themselves into on the mage front.

Oh now I know what you mean. Both classes control Astral and Umbral in their own ways, though.

Has anyone stopped to think that with AoE toggle disappearing, the only way to heal will be through Conjurer AoE Cure spells? Perhaps Sacrifice will lose it's AoE, essentially wiping out their main healing ability. Just food for thought, since we don't know the final results here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

15min wait on Return when no KO? How will this do much good to stop death warping? Just seems like they thought they could solve another problem by slapping a timer on something.

---

Except dying and using return incurs a durability loss on equipment. This way Return functions like it does in pretty much any other MMO out there and on a much lower timer at that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Oh, no, I don't mean overpowered - I just mean that if we try to separate CON from THM by giving it both WHM and BLM, then we accidentally end up giving CON the powers of "Astral and Umbral" which is actually the foundation of being a THM in the first place. Whoops! There's really not much of an escape from the logic-loop SE has backed themselves into on the mage front.

---

Wut...?


Anyways! So happy that we're getting a little more info about what the class focuses will be going forward. From a lore perspective, I personally like seeing CON being the WHM since thematically their weapons emphasize returning life to dead/dying things.

all i can say with a massive 101 mp cost enjoy using return and running back to you party. easy mode becomes even easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinsui

In Japanese, THM is called 呪術士, which most literally translates to guy-who-uses-cursing-techniques. Not very WHM, is it? ;).

---

Id call that a warlock (wow theft ofc lol but best simmilarity i know of) or plain sadist lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

all i can say with a massive 101 mp cost enjoy using return and running back to you party. easy mode becomes even easier.

---

Shut up you're rere

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

all i can say with a massive 101 mp cost enjoy using return and running back to you party. easy mode becomes even easier.

---

Who knows how the dungeons would work, maybe no crystal to set HP at and raise is required, this would be pointless if its uncap(mayb cant change class once u enter dungeon).... But 101MP isn't that bid deal, considering you could get to 700MP at lvl 12 with like 50 MND, lets not forget auto refresh and Siphon/Stygian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

Shut up you're rere

---

awww such a polite way for a princess to speak.

Am I the only one here who is disturbed by the 5 minutes and 30 minutes Recast timers on Raise/Ressurect and Rebirth respectively? While in full parties with several healers that might not be too troublesome, but in low manning groups having to wait 5 mins between Raises is a huge time-waster, in my opinion.

All solid changes. Glad to see they're thinking big picture but taking care of a lot of the little things that need fixing.

15 min reuse on Return is fine by me, durability penalty gives a slight incentive not to abuse deathwarping.

Rez changes are solid. Basic rez should be accessible to all. Long recast so death isn't totally meaningless.

I still struggle a bit with the 30m recast on Rebirth, but I can see why it is that way. I guess they're looking at it like a one-off chance to deal with issues like a tank dying mid-boss fight, with R2 being the real workhorse rez spell. I think I might apportion R2/R3 timers a little differently if I were in charge, but then I haven't seen how the new content is paced or know how SE sees their instanced dungeons playing out going forward.

Then again, with the exception of uber-hard boss fights, people shouldn't be dying often enough that recasts on rezzes become a problem. If more than 1 person is getting floored every 2 and a half minutes during a dungeon, it's either incredibad game design (at which point hasta la vista FFXIV), or the problem exists between someone's keyboard and chair.

Hopefully SE doesn't stuff group content full of trash mobs that can one-shot a group (hi2u Impish Incantations with enough level difference), otherwise I think they've got a good balance.

Well there has some sort of limit to it, 5/15/30 minutes means you should at least TRY not to die, isn't that the point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhayve

Am I the only one here who is disturbed by the 5 minutes and 30 minutes Recast timers on Raise/Ressurect and Rebirth respectively? While in full parties with several healers that might not be too troublesome, but in low manning groups having to wait 5 mins between Raises is a huge time-waster, in my opinion.

---

The point is to discourage death. You don't want to die, do you? That's the point, it encourages you to stop sucking.

With fatigue being gone, and them getting rid of leves for party leveling, they are really getting back to an actual grind. Liking it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhayve

Am I the only one here who is disturbed by the 5 minutes and 30 minutes Recast timers on Raise/Ressurect and Rebirth respectively? While in full parties with several healers that might not be too troublesome, but in low manning groups having to wait 5 mins between Raises is a huge time-waster, in my opinion.

---

Low man and raise are not recommended to be used in tandem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I don't think CON is getting the WHM card here, I think the current dev team knows that THM is a far better healer - and wants it to be able to focus on that.

CON is a very good Ranged MDPS and back-up healer - which means it has the free time on occasion to clean up some bodies without having to distract Cure-Bomb-Thaum from doing their job.

---

Raise has always been a White Mage or White Magic based spell in pretty much every FF game that exists. Seeing that a majority, and all the good, Raise spells are exclusive to CON, and based on FF history of how Raise worked within the series, I think this leans more towards the fact that CON might in fact be the WHM. I have always suspected this, and I am glad to see that this is more evidence towards that fact.

Quote:

---

Raise is an advanced White Magic Ability usually obtained midway through the game. In most Final Fantasy titles.

FF: Know as LIFE, it is a level 5 WHM ability.

FFII: Known as LIFE, it is a White Magic Ability.

FFIII: Raise, also known as Life, is a level 5 White Magic Ability that could be used by WHM, RDM, Devout and Sage.

FFIV: Raise, also known as Life 1 and Life, is a White Magic Ability

FFV: Raise is a level 3 White Magic Ability that can be used by White Mages and Red Mages.

FFVI: Raise, also known as Life, is a White Magic Ability

---

...and the list goes on and on though pretty much every FF game, either referring to Raise/Life as a White Magic, or WHM spell that a few other classes such as sage and RDM can use... but it's always a WHM or White Magic Spell.

While I can not say 100%, since SE has not said CON Class = WHM JOB, I feel this gives a lot more evidence to the fact that CON will become the WHM Job.



Also: WOOT!!! Goodbye Fatigue!!!!! <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

Has anyone stopped to think that with AoE toggle disappearing, the only way to heal will be through Conjurer AoE Cure spells? Perhaps Sacrifice will lose it's AoE, essentially wiping out their main healing ability. Just food for thought, since we don't know the final results here.

---

This is very true... people complained about the AoE toggle and now it's being removed. CON is getting multi-cure spells instead of the toggle now. Which might, in fact, mean that Sacrifice will loose it's AoE as well... question is will they get multi-versions of sacrifice like CON is getting for Cure? SE hasn't said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhayve

Am I the only one here who is disturbed by the 5 minutes and 30 minutes Recast timers on Raise/Ressurect and Rebirth respectively? While in full parties with several healers that might not be too troublesome, but in low manning groups having to wait 5 mins between Raises is a huge time-waster, in my opinion.

---

Better get use to trying not to die

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

15min wait on Return when no KO? How will this do much good to stop death warping? Just seems like they thought they could solve another problem by slapping a timer on something.

---

Your equipment takes a durability hit when you return after a KO.

Blood warpers gonna blood warp. It's more about forcing them to pay a "convenience charge" of sorts.