"Most people don't have Animus yet"...

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

What sense of wonder is there to be had here? There's barely any lore for crying out loud. But you know I could see myself like you if it weren't week 4 of the 1st part for myself.

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Agreed, there really isn't much lore, or particularly exploration to be had. I could claim that it was likely due to popular demand (i.e. exploration/lore is a negligible concept for most players), but I wouldn't know for sure. My point on that though was predictability (the prevalent "want" of the current player base) is essentially a removal of all of that. The mentality where if it hinders the time to acquire something (even 1min of travel time difference), get rid of it.

Honestly, given the ground that MMORPGs grew from and gained popularity through, 1 month is nothing. 100hrs of active time spent acquiring something as stimulating as the concept of a relic piece is reasonable. People are always looking for things to complain about, even when it's not such a bad thing overall. Although, admittedly, for this games current philosophy and way of doing things, 100hrs would be quite a stretch for active play attempts. Yes, it'll make it easier to get things if we knew exactly when we can get it, but is it really that necessary? Why is it necessary that everything, regardless of concept or available alternatives, be 100% predictable? My outlook on the matter is mainly from accepting this game as a game... not as a necessary part of my life. I don't need every single aspect of a game to be predictable. If something might take a long time to do because of RNG, then it takes a long time to do... what's wrong with that?

Secretly hoping they lower the myth cost to 500 per book.

I see people saying that players "want everything now" ... or are "impatient"

Did you ever stop to think that in a game that practically rocket blasts you to max level... with DF that practically rains gear down on players... there has been little to no investment for gear so far... so why would anyone expect to spend much time getting something? This is a new weapon that will be upgraded soon... some people will be finishing, and it will be useful for all of a couple days maybe before they start the upgrade process lol.

Stuff can take a long time to get when the game makes gear worth investing time into.... and requires level appropriate content to earn without terrible RNG control gimmicks.

Gear in this game is throwaway.. so why would you spend that much time on something?

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>.> Half the party not doing as well as they should? Don't ragequit, teach them so they can be better. If people keep ragequitting because of a few people not doing that great, it's not going to help the problem at all. The more people learn to help/teach people how to do a fight/their job, the less problems we'd have with bad parties. Pretty sure it'll bring some rage from other people, but as it's been said before and I'm sure people will agree, it's a mmo, there's a community. It's not all about you. Better the group to better the game.

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I don't rage quit groups, I just don't bother with content anymore that most people have a hard time passing because they can't react fast enough even if they understand the mechanics. Mostly it's due to lag because they play during peak hours or they're not use to reacting quickly when you have to avoid a ground targeted aoe. Can spend all the time you'd like trying to help someone avoid aoe, but not everyone is capable.

Referring to Titan Extreme here as an example.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Gear in this game is throwaway.. so why would you spend that much time on something?

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If that's how you feel why do you care

I hear Levi weapons are the bees knees.

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Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

If that's how you feel why do you care

I hear Levi weapons are the bees knees.

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1. Because it is a very bad design (my opinion on why stated multiple times elsewhere)... and the introduction of bad design is a concern to overall game quality.

2. Because this is an ongoing quest - which means there might be really fun parts later.. or the reward might be good later... or lore might be good later... which would all require completion of the pre-requisite badly design part of the quest.

3. Because negative player experiences such as this do impact a game and its community. Lots of contentious threads surround this topic... and if SE has noticed the feedback, it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that the impact reaches beyond the forums. For a game that had to be remade once already, it's not something to take lightly.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Maybe they will make the next upgrade obtainable after beating all of the Ex Primals?

Guess half of the community would be stuck on Atma for the next six months :/

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Well if Leviathan doesn't come into DF soon they will take even longer. Hard to get lots of exp when you have to spend at least an hour in PF for one group that could disband because one person didn't read the PF description clearly.

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Originally Posted by Zell1226

Taking down The Bog would be worthy of obtaining a good item.

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It should be located in LL and have to follow a quest line where we have to tilt the city too, right? ;D

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

Yep I guarantee you if SE had made this more interesting and made special mobs etc, people would've tolerated this much more and felt more obliged to do it.

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I guarantee the if SE had made it any other way to get it people would *still* be whining and moaning just like they are now.

Why? I shouldn't really have to even answer that one. Just look at the forums lol

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Time can also translate to not being casual friendly, not just content difficulty. Which is, primarily, the stance that you and many others complain about having problems with. RNG is not a nice mistress to be around, but it's a feature (love it or hate it) of RPGs... especially MMORPGs. When everything becomes predictable, you essentially have the mentality that you would in an FPS, shooter, puzzle, etc. You people really like to make everything predictable, don't you? No desire for astonishment and wonder. No love for unpredictability and the joy of defying the odds. That is, unless the odds are always in your favor.

Not saying there's anything particularly bad about that, just that it's a sad thing to see. For as few of RNG related things this game has when it comes to gear/upgrades, they're still wanted to be made into the same old "must have by X time" sort of thing.

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RNG is not the main issue here. The main issue is the blatant "Help the noobs!" scheme they have going with these relics. Nobody wants to do Tam-Tara deepcroft again, what purpose does that dungeon serve to someone who has seen some of the hardest content in the game? Nobody wants to grind FATEs at max level, we already did that to level up (well, non-legacy did). It's a mindless waste of time to help people level that don't even need help. Why should a DPS who is doing books have to sit in a dungeon queue for longer than 30 minutes while tanks and healers get 5 minute ones? It's also unbalanced in addition to being stupid. "Just ask your friends to go with you!" Good luck, considering most of them find this just as annoying/boring as me.

RNG for Atmas in the least of the problems here. Your real meat of this quest comes from doing those stupid boring books, and finding the myth to buy them.

Biggest issue with this is it's all reusing old content, new CONTENT PATCHES are supposed to bring NEW CONTENT. Of course the new primals and Coil are great, but I truly expected some epic quests and boss fights to upgrade the weapon, not this mess. Also I was pretty blown away that the weapon retains the same model with a slightly different glow, I expected at least some change in the models

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Originally Posted by Caselia

I don't rage quit groups, I just don't bother with content anymore that most people have a hard time passing because they can't react fast enough even if they understand the mechanics. Mostly it's due to lag because they play during peak hours or they're not use to reacting quickly when you have to avoid a ground targeted aoe. Can spend all the time you'd like trying to help someone avoid aoe, but not everyone is capable.

Referring to Titan Extreme here as an example.

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That's specifically why I haven't finished Titan Extreme yet. Just saying that as an example to the people who do ragequit after 1-2 wipes because of silly mistakes or something, instead of giving advice

I have atma weapon and have done 4 books.

I don't mind that they pushed Novus back. Getting atma took me longer than a week of farming from when I woke up to when I felt like sleeping per day of the week (with exceptions of food and bathing etc ) for most of them, which I'm perfectly fine with.

Now I'm taking my time with the books, rather than SRing first 2 Bray bosses. If Novus hadn't been pushed back, I would have maybe picked up my pace depending on what Novus entailed.

Most gear in the game is throw away. But so far it seems like relic weapons aren't. Or at least wont be for a while. Sure, there are weapons that are better, but those are the ones that become throw away, while the relic weapon continues to grow. Probably up until 3.0 and maybe even beyond. If that isn't worth working for to you, then continue on with the temporarily stronger throw away weapons that still require effort to get for most people.

For me, the Atma grind and myth for the books are so far worth the time I have put in.

In my opinion, it's well balanced. Put time and effort in for a slightly weaker weapon doing things that aren't difficult, or put time and effort in more difficult content for a stronger throw away weapon each patch.

If you want a weapon that is difficulty locked, that is what most of them are. Whether or not you find Levi and coil difficult is another matter.

On the nature of RNG, as a game developer I will admit it was a huge part of older game systems. This was mainly due to the fact that older games were developed on older systems which lacked the space for complex stories and mechanics. RNG was a way around this by creating an quick, easy, and "artificial" time sink that gives some sense of difficulty. That being said, although RNG was used in countless games, that does not mean it should have remained a permanent fixture in today's online games. We live in a day and age that allows us to create complex stories, characters, worlds, content, etc. RNG isn't needed anymore, yet it persists due to some overwhelming fascination with "traditional" gameplay, so much that people now falsely believe that RNG is a necessary staple in role-playing games. This is 100% untrue. RNG was a workaround to a problem that existed long ago, a problem that has vanished over the years as technology got better. There is no need for it anymore. It was never meant to become a part of RPG identity. It's only when the disillusioned masses of gamers realize this that we will finally see this horrible mechanic go away.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

And I thought the point of mmorpg was to play with other people!

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exept relic weapon is your personal progression of your jobs. then involve people while making stronger your weapon is...weird.

i will even say this, the weapon is like the training part before go face the extreme and BC2.

Thought all this was to allow us to progress, while also giving new players a helping hand, ( time sink for us, but more players for new players to do stuff with so the game doesn't feel so empty)

The issue with Atma has nothing to do with "difficulty" it has to deal with dealing with annoying factors such as "low drop rates".

Doing your Atma questline requires a fortified will that can withstand weeks if not months of bad luck from aspects that people now consider annoying to have to do and put up with.

1.) You need to have motivation that wont bend over day lasting streaks of bad luck.
2.) You need to have 12+ inventory slots set aside for the Atma
3.) You need to wait for the FATEs to pop
4.) You need to put up with having to deal with how some FATEs work.
5.) You need to put up with how long some FATEs may last.

That burden is gone when you do the FATE version towards your Animus. Since all you need to do is complete a specific kind of FATE and if it pops call for help. Only some FATEs are annoying to deal with as you work towards your Animus such as Four Winds since you need a group of people to complete.

The first day of grinding for Atma I got nothing it sure sucked seeing other people getting their 1st Atma 2nd and even 3rd but it didn't get me down.
Yet when I was near second to my last Atma I spend 3 days farming before I got it. My will was wavering by the 2nd day. So I had to keep trying to fortify my will so I didn't just give up on it completely and eventually I got it before I gave up.

I've never been a fan of range. It has never ever favored me over the course of countless MMO's. All I can do to offset bad luck is keep trying. Raiding gear is where I draw the line and call it quits. I'd rather op for other forms that are guaranteed to give an upgrade like philo, myth, and soldiery over getting Allagan gear from coil.

So I will take it personal when content is delayed and the excuse is "Most people don't have Animus yet".

We all started 2.2 on the same day.
We all had 4 weeks to work on our Animus
We all had to put up with RNG
We all had to put up with FATEs
We all had to put up with Farming Myth

If it was worded properly then I could have let it slide yet the way it was worded I can not. Since it literally under minds the time and effort everyone put into their Animus because of those that didn't want to bother doing it.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

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that's not how rng works. people work their tail ends off and have still made off with nothing.

that's the problem everyone starts at the same time but other have to do so much more then someone else because of rng and now the people who said the rng was ok is mad because se has just shoved it in their face about how bad it was.

What's sad is that this data of people not finished forgets to count in the fact of 193 pages of bitching, and people who are not finished because they cried and just gave up saying they weren't going to do it, until they fixed the drop rate... So thanks to those guys, my progression comes to a halt... Nice...

On one hand people complain about not enough new content, and options. Then on another hand, people wanted the update to the Animus to be pushed back cause "they" weren't finished yet. Damn shame.

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Originally Posted by Velox

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Not true. The granddaddy of rpg games, D&D uses a completely rng system. And there is no better example than D&D that I quote " allows us to create complex stories, characters, worlds, content, etc: The popularity of D&D up to today shows that RNG is still a staple of any role playing game.

But since you claim to be a game developer, why not develop a rpg totally devoid of rng. If it's fun, I'll be one of the first to sign up!

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What's sad is that this data of people not finished forgets to count in the fact of 193 pages of bitching, and people who are not finished because they cried and just gave up saying they weren't going to do it, until they fixed the drop rate... So thanks to those guys, my progression comes to a halt... Nice...

On one hand people complain about not enough new content, and options. Then on another hand, people wanted the update to the Animus to be pushed back cause "they" weren't finished yet. Damn shame.

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Why are you blaming players? That's just silly.

They said themselves not as many people as they expected finished Animus. This has everything to do with the way they designed the Atma/Book grind, and very little to do with people not wanting to subject themselves to it. People are free to choose what they want to do, or not do, as they see fit. Clearly the Animus upgrade was too tedious if not enough people have finished upgrades.

I don't even have an Atma weapon, much less even a single stone from Fates. Right now it's probably not too far off from the truth to say that only a minority has achieved Animus, and only a slightly larger minority having obtained Atma. Yoshida is probably waiting for when that minority becomes a majority. Sadly, as has been mentioned, between the Bahamut (Extreme Primal) and Leviathan weapons there aren't alot of people willing to subject themselves to the Fate grind when a few runs of an extreme primal can get a weapon that's just as good if not better.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So I will take it personal when content is delayed and the excuse is "Most people don't have Animus yet".

We all started 2.2 on the same day.
We all had 4 weeks to work on our Animus
We all had to put up with RNG
We all had to put up with FATEs
We all had to put up with Farming Myth

If it was worded properly then I could have let it slide yet the way it was worded I can not. Since it literally under minds the time and effort everyone put into their Animus because of those that didn't want to bother doing it.

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You do know how random works right? Let's assume a 3% drop rate for any given Atma crystal (might be a little high, but work with me here). This 3% drop rate means that for every FATE that you do, you have a 3% chance of obtaining an Atma crystal. On the flip-side of this, this also means you have a 97% chance of NOT getting your Atma to drop on each FATE. With a random system (and although pseudo-RNGs aren't truely random, they are effectively random), there is no guarantee of you ever falling into that 3% drop zone, that is, if we assume you had the ability to do an 5,000,000 FATEs in a zone, there still exists the mathematical probability that you would NEVER see that Atma drop. As your number of attempts approaches infinity, the odds of not getting a drop approach 0% but never actually hit 0%. It's an asymptotic relationship that can and will screw over a portion of the playerbase at no fault of their own.

The ugly truth of RNG that most people don't want to talk about (or don't realize) is that some players will never obtain what they work towards, no matter how many hours they grind or how many FATEs they complete. This is why people argue against RNG, as it creates and unfair playing field with no means to even the score.

A simple fix for this broken system to create a time sink, still retain the only redeeming aspect of RNG (early reward), yet at least guarantee something in the end is a dynamic drop rate.
With a dynamic drop rate, your odds of getting an atma piece go up for each FATE you complete in a single zone (on a per-zone basis of course). This would require variables to keep track of each zone's atma. The starting drop rate would be something small, say 1%. Each time you complete a FATE and don't get your atma, the drop rate would increase by 1% (so your 2nd FATE would yield you a 2% drop rate). A lucky person would be rewarded with an Atma early of course, and that's fine. An unlucky person would have to do AT MOST 100 FATEs (which isn't unreasonable). At that point your drop rate would be 100% so the next FATE would guarantee you an Atma piece, and thus, destroy the ugly side-effect of RNG that could lead to 27 months of farming without success.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So I will take it personal when content is delayed and the excuse is "Most people don't have Animus yet".

We all started 2.2 on the same day.
We all had 4 weeks to work on our Animus
We all had to put up with RNG
We all had to put up with FATEs
We all had to put up with Farming Myth

If it was worded properly then I could have let it slide yet the way it was worded I can not. Since it literally under minds the time and effort everyone put into their Animus because of those that didn't want to bother doing it.

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http://www.quickmeme.com/img/bc/bcb7...d44e0a3d38.jpg

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Why are you blaming players? That's just silly.

They said themselves not as many people as they expected finished Animus. This has everything to do with the way they designed the Atma/Book grind, and very little to do with people not wanting to subject themselves to it. People are free to choose what they want to do, or not do, as they see fit. Clearly the Animus upgrade was too tedious if not enough people have finished upgrades.

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I'm not blaming players who have been trying since patch and have not completed... I'm blaming the players who started, and decided not to do it at all... Don't they factor in the percentage of people not done yet? The people who said they weren't doing it?

And the problem with them saying themselves that not as many people as they expected finished Animus, is that they did say themselves that not many people will have an Animus before the new patch.

"Naoki Yoshida states that the Zodiac Weapons are a form of upgraded Relic Weapon which will take a considerable amount of time to complete, and will be upgraded in the form of phases in each patch. Yoshida goes on to mention that not many players will have the first phase completed before the second one launches in 2.25, and that this is a very overtime goal for players to work on and that their viability as future weapons will remain for some time."

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I wouldn't fix it. Not everything has to be for casuals.

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LMAO. So grinding Level 5 fates and waiting hours in the wilderness is something for the progressive Hardcore people?

Hardcore people upgrade their Leviathan weapon and beat T9 till they got their weapons so they do not have to care about Relicts. The Zenith upgrade system is clearly made for the vast majority of the Game, casuals so to say. You feel like a pro doing this? Maybe reconsider that point of view.

Atma droprate feels like 1.18 ifrit weapon droprate.

Want this win to matter? Dark Matter!

The ARR community has it so good these days, if this is what they're complaining about.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I wouldn't fix it. Not everything has to be for casuals.

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yea coz hero running fates, lvling syncing and killing stuff in 3 seconds with youre top of the line gear
whistl pressing 1 2 1 2 and an occasional 3 for flavour for 24 hours a day is
much fun and hardcore. must be a damn hardcore masochist coz i cant do that sh!t im sorry lol.
-_-

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I'm not blaming players who have been trying since patch and have not completed... I'm blaming the players who started, and decided not to do it at all... Don't they factor in the percentage of people not done yet? The people who said they weren't doing it?

And the problem with them saying themselves that not as many people as they expected finished Animus, is that they did they themselves that not many people will have an Animus before the new patch.

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I still don't understand how you can blame players. They're not at fault for content that doesn't hold their interest.

Personally I'm quite happy for them to be taking their time with the next stage and attempting to get it right.

Remember how this game was meant to be "fun" and if players aren't having "fun" you're doing something wrong?

Yeah I guess that was a lie eh? how on earth is atma and animus "fun"? please explain this one to me Yoshi.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.
The RNG is totally rediculous and unfair...some players can get all twelve in one day (they claim) and players like me can spend 5hrs or more a day and be stuck on 8/12 and not even be on book 1 yet...total crap design. I have put in a great effort on getting these done and have just felt on most nights like I did not accomplish a darn thing...I gave up doing Primals and Coil and everythign else because I want my damn ATMA and start my books and still cannot get there.
I would have rather it been something like do every FATE that spawns in an area 10 times or whatever and then you get your ATMA...so you still having us doing a ton of FATES but at least there is some end in sight.
I also would have rather had it be something like you have to craft a "special" item from every crafter class...and you have to do it on your own...cannot buy it or get it from someone. I would rather level every crafting class than frigging do this many FATES...gosh dang it, this is sooooo frustrating.
I hope they NERF the crap out of the drop rate and I get my next 4 in like 10 minutes....here's hoping.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

I still don't understand how you can blame players. They're not at fault for content that doesn't hold their interest.

Personally I'm quite happy for them to be taking their time with the next stage and attempting to get it right.

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This is the only excuse that I actually liked. That they said they were evaluating what they have done, and are working on the next part to have more areas to obtain whatever they wanted us to obtain. But to hold back content because people aren't there yet kinda sucks. If something didn't hold someone's interest I can't blame them for that your right, and I never have. What I blame is the 192 pages of crying about something takes to long, and is boring because the fact of the matter is... If they told you to go fight a level 3 fate, in every zone, and when you fought that fate it gave you your drop... There would be no crying about doing level 3 fates. Everyone would have done them, shut the hell up, and would have went on about their business talking about there shiny new weapons.

But since the drop rate is unforgiving, you get the 192 pages overflowing with whine like a 2014 cheese party... If you don't understand how I can blame players then read this next sentence slowly and carefully...

They pulled up data showing not many people finished their atma's with a lot of that said data including people who said I'm not looking for atma's anymore until they fix the drop rate. Hence, if those people would have never quit, gave up, retired, whatever you want to call it, then maybe more people would have their atma's resulting in more people having their Animus, but this shouldn't matter, because Yoshi P stated that...

"the Zodiac Weapons are a form of upgraded Relic Weapon which will take a considerable amount of time to complete, and will be upgraded in the form of phases in each patch. Yoshida goes on to mention that not many players will have the first phase completed before the second one launches in 2.25, and that this is a very overtime goal for players to work on and that their viability as future weapons will remain for some time."

It doesn't have to be "fun". But it should atleast feel rewarding and worth the effort. That's the current problem a large amount of the playerbase feel the current system isn't worth the effort and the reward is lacking. When you can waste hours/days/weeks trying to get atma or just go do levi ex and get a weapon just as good or better then what's the point.

I agree that these things should be a time sync but they should still feel worth the time and rewarding enough or people just aren't going to want to do it. So anyone complaining that other players are to blame for them not releasing the next part of the relic upgrade should look at who's really to blame. The dev's cut corners in order to drag things out and that's what has led to the current situation.

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Originally Posted by Worm

The Golden Saucer will have relic upgrade pachinko.

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LMAO

I honestly can see that happening.

Unlucky person: 10000000 tokens gambled, no upgrade item won.
Lucky person: 1 token gambled, already got an upgrade item.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

You can take the books more slowly, you know. No one forces you to run Brayflox over and over and over.

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There is however one flaw in taking it slowly, that being that everyone in my FC now is doing just that (running Brayflox over and over), so when I finally get to it, (or your already there and not playing as much as they are) without a large influx of new members into the group, all of the veterans will just log out and go watch youtube or whatever as soon as I ask. Oh no! not Brayflox again!.

Otherwise they suggest DF, which I hate with a passion, it is said that nerfs keep people close to endgame, you just wont do nerfed content with people you know aren't asshats.

People do indeed get behind in xiv, if the rest of your FC has a lot more time in general to play than yourself, and they have ground a dung. into the ground they can be ooold gaming friends and you are still on your own.

woot i have 8 atma! i'm almost there. just 100 more atma to go to finish all my jobs! fun stuff

Listen okay, shhhh shhhh. No one is forcing anyone to get an Animus weapon. No one. If you do not want to go through that ordeal then thankfully there are some viable alternatives. Gone are the days of the Titan HM bottleneck. But understand that no matter how many progression paths are introduced, people will always complain. Animus? "Too grindy". Levi? "Too much RNG. Not on DF. Much latency". Weathered weapons? "But then I can't buy sol gear for like a few weeks. And RNG." High Allagan? "Coil is hard."

It's starting to sound like a you problem.

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Listen okay, shhhh shhhh. No one is forcing anyone to get an Animus weapon. No one. If you do not want to go through that ordeal then thankfully there are some viable alternatives. Gone are the days of the Titan HM bottleneck. But understand that no matter how many progression paths are introduced, people will always complain. Animus? "Too grindy". Levi? "Too much RNG. Not on DF. Much latency". Weathered weapons? "But then I can't buy sol gear for like a few weeks. And RNG." High Allagan? "Coil is hard."

It's starting to sound like a you problem.

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are you talking to me? because i dont have a problem i'm just happy i got my 8th atma tonight and i love my weapons to glow its pretty. So i want to do it to all my jobs.

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Originally Posted by Whiteprincess

are you talking to me? because i dont have a problem i'm just happy i got my 8th atma tonight and i love my weapons to glow its pretty. So i want to do it to all my jobs.

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Oh no, sorry. Mine was a general reply to the thread. Happy farming :)

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Listen okay, shhhh shhhh. No one is forcing anyone to get an Animus weapon. No one. If you do not want to go through that ordeal then thankfully there are some viable alternatives.

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Well, yeah, that's exactly what people have done. They've ignored the Atma/Animus upgrades en masse.

They've ignored it to the point that it doesn't sound like the playerbase are even close to the number of Animus weapons Yoshi had in mind.