Over-healing should not generate extra threat

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Yes, I did just say that. Healing over time isn't really used to preempt damage. It's used to counter constant damage like Auto-attack. Shielding (like Stoneskin and Adloqium) is used to preempt damage. It is NOT unreasonable for the tank to remove its lingering effect if they still have it on. I and my tank friends have no problem removing it.

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Basically this sums it up.


Here's an idea, if you notice your tank still has Regen ticking on him/her you can make them aware before they make another pull. :)

After coming from XI (a game where heals generated enmity in accordance to how much HP was actually healed, not by how much they would have healed; the former IMO is how it should be), I'm kind of surprised how many people here are against the OP.

To me it feels like an instance of lazy programming, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Dale

It's not a waste of mana. Over-healing when using HoTs for example can actually conserve mana.

Over-healing is unavoidable on this game... unless you simply don't use half of your spells and heal terribly. The extra threat it causes is just a nuisance, and doesn't do anything but annoy players like me.

Spamming heals needlessly is not the same as over-healing. I think you are confusing two very different concepts.

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All I've got to say: Learn to work with your other healer or learn to cancel casts. I heal when I see the tanks need healing, I have a SCH take care of the pre-curing as they should be doing. I rarely suffer from Overheal threat because I play conservatively. I rarely call to my bards for MP song, I'm not wasting MP on pointless things and more so, I'm not Overhealing as much as more inexperienced healers normally would. It is very avoidable, and you can avoid it by not curing too early.

Tank has 7k HP, they drop to 6k. Perfect time to start casting Cure 1 because it'll do ~1k HP restored (any overheal amount will be so so immensely minuscule if it shows up at all). Only time there'll be real overheal is if it crits (which is why Crit builds are not viable for WHM imho.) Tank drops to 6.5k, Cure 1 would generate overheal threat with the 500 HP overheal, so a SCH's Aldo or fairy will heal that just nicely.

If I'm alone though, I'm DPSing in Cleric Stance until I see the tank need healing, and I'll do just that. If I'm really desperate to get the cure off but I have no time to get off Cleric stance, Benediction since it's clearly unaffected by CS.

That'll pretty much wrap up my 2 cents. Hope you're having a pleasant day/afternoon/night OP

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't know who thought this idea up on the SE development team, but it was a bad decision. Tanking and healing on this game is tricky enough - especially considering how so many people who play this game are in such a rush they demand the tank grab half the dungeon at a time.

Heals should only generate threat if they actually restore health.

Please change this.

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It should generate hate and you should die for that. Overheal but not dpsin = please play bard.

I don't understand the problem other then you want to be a lazy healer. Regen works fine but stop taking everything you learned from other mmos and applying it to this one. Regen in XIV is not a preemptive heal. You do understand hate management in this game is the responsibility of the whole party not just the tank.

Over healing should cause double threat

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

After coming from XI (a game where heals generated enmity in accordance to how much HP was actually healed, not by how much they would have healed; the former IMO is how it should be), I'm kind of surprised how many people here are against the OP.

To me it feels like an instance of lazy programming, but whatever.

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More like lazy healers. You can't just spam cure and expect to be ok, just get better at your job and you won't have that problem. Also XI and enmity shouldn't be in the same sentence, that game's enmity system was completely broken and never got fixed.

Patch 2.1 already almost doubled the aggro generated by tanks, and the game was already plenty playable before that. If you still see tanks losing aggro to healers then one of the two (probably both) is doing something completely wrong.

Scholars generate basically no aggro, and warriors have more multitarget aggro than you can wave your puny staff at. Paladins and white mages are both 5-button jobs so at least learn to push those 5 buttons at the right time.[/flamebait]

This has to be a troll thread, right? If so, bravo. 8/10

It makes healers manage their heals better. Controlling emnity is a huge part of the game. If you're still pulling hate with use of SoS (or if you're just a scholar in general), you're doing it wrong.

Someone wise (can't find it again) said :

"The trick to be a good healer is not to know when to heal.
The trick to be a good healer is to know when NOT to heal"

I think you should meditate on this

If this happened healer would by far be the easiest class to play... Spamming heals requires absolutely no skill. No thank you, learn to play your class correctly, managing your threat is a huge part of being a healer. Also, your time could be better spent than standing there shooting off unnecessary heals, like maybe doing some damage? If you're unable to handle threat gen as a WHM, then maybe you should try SCH instead. (Or you know, don't be a healer if you can't handle it.)

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

If this happened healer would by far be the easiest class to play... Spamming heals requires absolutely no skill. No thank you, learn to play your class correctly, managing your threat is a huge part of being a healer. Also, your time could be better spent than standing there shooting off unnecessary heals, like maybe doing some damage? If you're unable to handle threat gen as a WHM, then maybe you should try SCH instead. (Or you know, don't be a healer if you can't handle it.)

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Writing irritating posts that have no relation to anything I have said is waste of time too. But you still do it.

When did I ever say I shoot off unnecessary heals? When did I ever say I don't do any damage? You should spend your time reading posts before you respond to them with condescending trash like this. And at least do someone the courtesy of playing with them before you mock the way they play. I think people are entitled at least that common decency. Because believe it or not, reading my opinion that over-healing should not create extra threat doesn't make you an expert about me.

Well if this is simply about Regen, stop putting on Regen when you know it is not going to wear off before the fight ends. <.<

In the event a tank pulls another pack mid pull its on him, otherwise it is incredibly easy to know when Regen is going to get its full use.

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Originally Posted by Mazi

Well if this is simply about Regen, stop putting on Regen when you know it is not going to wear off before the fight ends. <.<

In the event a tank pulls another pack mid pull its on him, otherwise it is incredibly easy to know when Regen is going to get its full use.

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No its not on him. It's on the silly mechanic. None of this should even be an issue.

This doesn't just happen with me either. When I run instances with my black mage I see it happen to plenty of other white mages too.

I find myself in contempt of this request.


First off, the practice of Pre-Regen a tank before combat is fool-hearty. I play all three roles (On separate characters.) And as a DPS, I do not engage monsters that are not tagged even on AoE compositions, in order to give the tank a moment to establish hate. There is no efficiency lost in following the exact same policy as a healer.

Wanting to alter the very mechanics of the game in order to accommodate your personal tastes is selfish, and willfully ignorant of the intent in the mechanics. As a Healer, they want you to balance the use of your heals, including your healing over time spells, against MP Efficiency and Hate Generation. To do that, a punishment mechanic for over-curing, even in Regen situations, had to be put in place else-wise Healers would be non-existent on the hate table unless something was incredibly wrong - there becomes absolutely no skill-check for healers.

I've been aggravated by Regen Tics securing hate on spawns or pulls before hate can be grasped by the tank. Eos in particular is horrible with Whispering Wind during Garuda Extreme (you can tell who's microing their skills in those situations.) But I don't want the mechanics changed just because I'm inconvenience. I alter my playstyle to compensate.

This is what you should do, rather than complain on the forums. Adaptation is part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

My only hate in regards to this problem is regen. I can't count how many times a tank will grab hate from 1 mob in a pack of mobs and then all the mobs run at you cause of regen still healing a full hp tank.

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Regen overall is a pretty ridiculous amount of hate; I think it's an overreaction to how little hate it generated in ffxi. Regardless, it's easy enough to work around.

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Originally Posted by Skeezix

Play another role

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Or play SCH, who has nowhere near the concern WHM has at managing this.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I find myself in contempt of this request.

First off, the practice of Pre-Regen a tank before combat is fool-hearty..

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OK, I am going to stop you here. And yes, your contempt (and others) is well documented at this point. Don't you worry about that. It's amazing the love you people have for your over-healing threat. You would think I was advocating taking away your very lives.

I never said I used regen before combat begins. The issue is when the tank rushes to do another pull while regen is still active. There is a difference. Again, you are assuming things that I never said so you can rant your ridiculous condescending diatribe at me. I guess as some attempt to puff yourself up at my expense. It's really the only reason I can think of.

And I hope you are the hyrist I used to play with on FF11. If so that vorpal blade I killed you with feels even better today ^^

It's not love for it; it's understanding how to work with it. And even if it didn't generate threat you'd be a bad healer for doing it.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

After coming from XI (a game where heals generated enmity in accordance to how much HP was actually healed, not by how much they would have healed; the former IMO is how it should be), I'm kind of surprised how many people here are against the OP.

To me it feels like an instance of lazy programming, but whatever.

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I guess I would have to agree, also coming from other games besides FF11 its second nature to cast HOTs on the tank before they pull so for some it may just be a force of habit.

I can see it from both points of view though, I won't be surprised if this mechanic is changed in the future because it seems more like an over sight than working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It's not love for it; it's understanding how to work with it. And even if it didn't generate threat you'd be a bad healer for doing it.

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Oh I disagree with you. There is definitely love involved. It's the only explanation. In fact, I imagine they have wet dreams at night when thinking of the precious threat their over-healing creates.

And yes, I know... I'm a bad healer because I use regen on the tank. Silly me. What on earth am I thinking.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Oh I disagree with you. There is definitely love involved. It's the only explanation. In fact, I imagine they have wet dreams at night when thinking of the precious threat their over-healing creates.

And yes, I know... I'm a bad healer because I use regen on the tank. Silly me. What on earth am I thinking.

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Is it really that hard to wait 2 seconds after a mob is engaged to use Regen? I learned the very fist level 50 instance I shouldn't use Regen before a pull because it WILL get me killed, and this was back when WAR was underpowered to PLD and PLD's shield oath was not as strong as it is today. You're complaining about a mechanic that you're willingly running into because you want to do X when the proper/common sense way is to do Y

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Originally Posted by Dale

OK, I am going to stop you here. And yes, your contempt (and others) is well documented at this point. Don't you worry any. It's amazing the love you people have for your over-healing threat. You would think I was advocating taking away your very lives.

I never said I used regen before combat begins. The issue is when the tank rushes to do another pull while regen is still active. There is a difference. Again, you are assuming things that were never said so you can rant your ridiculous condescending diatribe at me.

And I hope you are the hyrist I used to play with on FF11. If so that vorpal blade I killed you with feels even better today ^^

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I'm rather confused as to where I know you from in FF11, but if you cherish a petty victory in FFXI's rather lackluster PvP system, I feel kinda sorry for you. Not that I claim any sort of skill in PvP mind you. That's not my preference for gaming.


Regardless, of that, even if you try to play the absolute innocence in the situation in which you claimed hate, which I severely doubt is genuine given your demeanor thus far, it sounds like you have severe difficulty handling any sort of threat headed your way. I will say again, that adaptation to the game mechanics is a part of developing skill, not complaining to have them change because you do not agree with the concept.


There was a lot I did not agree with in FFXI's mechanics. Some mechanics here in this game also irk me. But I do not demand they be changed because I actually strive to understand the through process behind instituting them. (With the standing exception of slow developments and change to Red Mage, simply because the class concept was broken.) Even if you are to disagree, you are very much in the minority in this regard.

There was a "Dale" once, I recall in FFXI. He was remarkable at adapting existing mechanics of the game to fit his playstyle, even when conventional play-styles decried his methodology and pressed him out of party-play. I remember that individual fondly because of that. Sadly, I don't think you are this Dale I know. He would adapt.

There are a couple of wonky things with the threat system yeah, such as some stuff like Eye for an Eye sometimes pulling enough hate that it'll at least get one or two mobs on you after even two Flashes or Overpowers, or Twinania dragons flying straight towards someone who didn't move or touch anything at all based on something silly like their first name. Most buffs seem to pull more hate than they probably should for no apparent reason, Regen I'd say I'm on the fence but I agree it shouldn't pull that much to instantly get everything on the healer between pulls, at least it should get everything to yellow or even orange, if anything increase the hate its original cast produces and maybe what the ticks do too though this is really mostly only an issue in dungeons with closer mob packs.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm rather confused as to where I know you from in FF11, but if you cherish a petty victory in FFXI's rather lackluster PvP system, I feel kinda sorry for you. Not that I claim any sort of skill in PvP mind you. That's not my preference for gaming.

Regardless, of that, even if you try to play the absolute innocence in the situation in which you claimed hate, which I severely doubt is genuine given your demeanor thus far, it sounds like you have severe difficulty handling any sort of threat headed your way. I will say again, that adaptation to the game mechanics is a part of developing skill, not complaining to have them change because you do not agree with the concept.


There was a lot I did not agree with in FFXI's mechanics. Some mechanics here in this game also irk me. But I do not demand they be changed because I actually strive to understand the through process behind instituting them. Even if you are to disagree, you are very much in the minority in this regard.

There was a "Dale" once, I recall in FFXI. He was remarkable at adapting existing mechanics of the game to fit his playstyle, even when conventional play-styles decried his methodology and pressed him out of party-play. I remember that individual fondly because of that. Sadly, I don't think you are this Dale I know. He would adapt
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I assure you I am that Dale :)

And when so-called adapting means I have to limit my gameplay in such stupid ways as neglecting to use one of my favorite and most effective spells on the tank there is a problem. This game has limited gameplay enough. To limit it further is out of the question.

As a white mage, I should be able to freely use regen without complicating pulls for a tank. It really is that simple.

This is a gameplay/mechanic issue. It's not a player issue. We have regen for a reason. And that reason is to use it. There is adaptation. Then there is just poor game design. This issue fits in the latter.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Is it really that hard to wait 2 seconds after a mob is engaged to use Regen?

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/sigh

Again, let me repeat. This has nothing to do with me using regen before combat begins. Please read my earlier posts to understand what I am talking about.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I assure you I am that Dale :)

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I don't understand what's exactly wrong here for you. If the tank is being overzealous in his pulls, or pulling while you have regen up, run with him. That doesn't limit his mechanics, or yours. And I know for a fact you don't fear Melee range. Sure, you get hate for a moment, that just means you're in control to where the monsters go. It'd be worse if my Eos caught attention from whispering wind and I don't have the opportunity to micro her next to the tank causing the tank to move.

But here, you're in full control over that circumstance, Dale. It's not limiting you. If you want to keep Regen on your tank, you know what's going to happen. Maybe pop a stoneskin on yourself and, heck, get a good holy in so that the mobs are stunned long enough to be flashed.

Question though, Why White Mage? I thought you loved Sword and Board.

Over-healing definitely should generate threat, as this is the penalty for being wasteful with your heals (along with an empty MP pool).

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't understand what's exactly wrong here for you. If the tank is being overzealous in his pulls, or pulling while you have regen up, run with him. That doesn't limit his mechanics, or yours. And I know for a fact you don't fear Melee range. Sure, you get hate for a moment, that just means you're in control to where the monsters go. It'd be worse if my Eos caught attention from whispering wind and I don't have the opportunity to micro her next to the tank causing the tank to move.

But here, you're in full control over that circumstance, Dale. It's not limiting you. If you want to keep Regen on your tank, you know what's going to happen. Maybe pop a stoneskin on yourself and, heck, get a good holy in so that the mobs are stunned long enough to be flashed.

Question though, Why White Mage? I thought you loved Sword and Board.

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It depends on the tank. Yes, a skilled and experience tank can deal with it usually. But if it's a new tank still learning the ropes (which is often the case when doing random duty finders) it can turn into a nightmare. It doesn't matter if I run with him or not. Besides, I always stay relatively near the tank anyways during most instances because I do like to use Holy. But you can't use holy when a half dozen mobs are beating the crap out of you (not to mention that creates quite a bit of threat in itself and might compound the problem). And 90% of all tanks are over-zealous with pulls. That's the norm on this game.

The problem is regen creates an imbalanced amount of threat right at the start that many tanks struggle with. It's just a nuisance, and holds back the gameplay. It would be far better just to make a regen pulse that does 0 damage cause 0 threat.

And I also play a black mage. I don't play a paladin because that's what my friend plays. You may remember him. Called "Dest" for short. ^^

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Originally Posted by jwang

Over-healing definitely should generate threat, as this is the penalty for being wasteful with your heals (along with an empty MP pool).

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An empty MP pool is penalty enough.

But what I am talking about has nothing to do with being wasteful with your heals.

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Originally Posted by Dale

/sigh

Again, let me repeat. This has nothing to do with me using regen before combat begins. Please read my earlier posts to understand what I am talking about.

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I read what you said. I also read you saying Over healing is unavoidable among other nonsense. It is very avoidable. More then likely you're using regen at the wrong time before a battle ends or not communicating with the tank properly. Though if you are indeed trying to communicate, then there's no issue with the mechanics, there's an issue with your tank.

It's not poor game design, it's the players making poor execution of the game design

Over healing should definitely cause threat, there are many reasons, but two that jump out at me are scholar with their shields, many times scholars will preheal for the shield to prep for a big hit, even if the target/targets are at full health, this would turn it into effective health via no threat. Secondly there are Hot's if you stack more than one heal over time effect, they stack, if the total tic heals the target and then some, who gets the threat for the amount healed, and who gets credit for the over heal, do you split it in half, do you have the game do a calculation and break it up into percentages based on who provided which portion of the tic?

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Originally Posted by Dale

It depends on the tank. Yes, a skilled and experience tank can deal with it usually. But if it's a new tank still learning the ropes (which is often the case when doing random duty finders) it can turn into a nightmare. It doesn't matter if I run with him or not. Besides, I always stay relatively near the tank anyways during most instances because I do like to use Holy. But you can't use holy when a half dozen mobs are beating the crap out of you.

The problem is regen creates an imbalanced amount of threat right at the start that many tanks struggle with. It's just a nuisance, and holds back the gameplay. It would be far better just to make a regen pulse that does 0 damage cause 0 threat.

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- like they did in FFXI, I understand the idea. I'm just not in agreement.

Mainly because I don't mind being difficult on newer tanks. The extreme Primals are hell. They need to know how to deal with situations that can turn awkward or dire quickly, and a mage getting hate of a Regen Tick on DF trash mobs is a far safer environment to learn that sort of thing from.

Also, Holy on Quickcast does wonders on the whole "I've got six mobs on me and need to buy time." Bit. The stun length on holy is insane, and if the Tank cant get it off you in that time, yeah, sorry, but I'm pinning that blame solely on the tank then, not the game mechanics. I know you don't like to blame people who are learning, but nothing's wrong with making a misstep as a tank learning through hard Mode Dungeons.

But I understand your frustration. I just don't agree this time around that changing the mechanics is a solution to that.

Just to be curious, where are you encountering this problem the most? I run Scholar as my healer (Something about WHM/BLM rubs me the wrong way when it comes to Mages). So I'm uncertain which pulls in particular you're having trouble with.

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And I also play a black mage. I don't play a paladin because that's what my friend plays. You may remember him. Called "Dest" for short. ^^

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Ah, memories. Though, you guys should swap back and forth if he's ok switching roles. One of my joys in this game is being able to play multiple classes far easier than in FFXI, due to the lighter overall gearing requirement.

I split them on different characters, however, mainly for Roleplaying's sake. I just can't immerse myself into a character that can be highly proficient at multiple disciplines that really should be taking their life-dedication to master.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Over healing should definitely cause threat, there are many reasons, but two that jump out at me are scholar with their shields, many times scholars will preheal for the shield to prep for a big hit, even if the target/targets are at full health, this would turn it into effective health via no threat. Secondly there are Hot's if you stack more than one heal over time effect, they stack, if the total tic heals the target and then some, who gets the threat for the amount healed, and who gets credit for the over heal, do you split it in half, do you have the game do a calculation and break it up into percentages based on who provided which portion of the tic?

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All other MMORPGs I have played worked like this. Heals that did 0 causes 0 threat. And it worked just fine.

I don't understand why so many in this thread think threat from over-healing is so important for a game to have.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

- like they did in FFXI, I understand the idea. I'm just not in agreement.Mainly because I don't mind being difficult on newer tanks. The extreme Primals are hell. They need to know how to deal with situations that can turn awkward or dire quickly, and a mage getting hate of a Regen Tick on DF trash mobs is a far safer environment to learn that sort of thing from.

Also, Holy on Quickcast does wonders on the whole "I've got six mobs on me and need to buy time." Bit. The stun length on holy is insane, and if the Tank cant get it off you in that time, yeah, sorry, but I'm pinning that blame solely on the tank then, not the game mechanics. I know you don't like to blame people who are learning, but nothing's wrong with making a misstep as a tank learning through hard Mode Dungeons.

But I understand your frustration. I just don't agree this time around that changing the mechanics is a solution to that.

Just to be curious, where are you encountering this problem the most? I run Scholar as my healer (Something about WHM/BLM rubs me the wrong way when it comes to Mages). So I'm uncertain which pulls in particular you're having trouble with.

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It's not any particular pull, and swift cast/sure cast are not always available and can't be relied on for such a frequent situation.

Blaming the tank does me no good if I am dead. Not to mention I have no desire to make his/her job more difficult. But I also refuse to neglect my abilities to accommodate what I consider to be poor game design. So until they fix this, I will continue to get the pulp beat out of me when ever a tank bites off more than they can chew.

It's fine we disagree. People often do.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't know who thought this idea up on the SE development team, but it was a bad decision. Tanking and healing on this game is tricky enough - especially considering how so many people who play this game are in such a rush they demand the tank grab half the dungeon at a time.

Heals should only generate threat if they actually restore health.

Please change this.

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Or, learn how to not overheal. Every MMO I've played has had a penalty of some kind for overhealing. If all you did was stand there spamming Cure III and asking for ballad where exactly would the challenge in your class lie?

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Originally Posted by Kuponutz

Or, learn how to not overheal. ?

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/sigh

I am actually looking forward to reaching my daily limit so I won't feel compelled to respond to posts like these.

This has nothing to do with learning how to heal or spamming cure 3. Please take a few minutes to read up on what I am talking about.

ANd the penalty for over-healing is wasting MP. That is sufficient. And I don't consider neglecting to use regen because it might steal hate from the tank when he starts the next pull as a form of challenge. I call it a form of stupid.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Ah, memories. Though, you guys should swap back and forth if he's ok switching roles. .

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He's not ok with it :)

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Originally Posted by Dale

/sigh

I am actually looking forward to reaching my daily limit so I won't feel compelled to respond to posts like these.

This has nothing to do with learning how to heal or spamming cure 3. Please take a few minutes to read up on what I am talking about.

ANd the penalty for over-healing is wasting MP. That is sufficient. And I don't consider neglecting to use regen because it might steal hate from the tank when he starts the next pull as a form of challenge. I call it a form of stupid.

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You are looking at this from only half of the healing side, level up scholar and play it, if overhealing meant no threat, they would have to redo scholar heals to where they only provided a shield for the amount actually healed, and this was create a balance issue with the healers. The reason things are the way they are is for balance, so yes, it does need to come down to either you getting better tanks, or you getting better at healing, or even better, both.

P.S. Like you I am also looking forward to you reaching your daily limit.

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Originally Posted by Dale

/sigh

I am actually looking forward to reaching my daily limit so I won't feel compelled to respond to posts like these.

This has nothing to do with learning how to heal or spamming cure 3. Please take a few minutes to read up on what I am talking about.

ANd the penalty for over-healing is wasting MP. That is sufficient. And I don't consider neglecting to use regen because it might steal hate from the tank when he starts the next pull as a form of challenge. I call it a form of stupid.

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A. Cure III's potency is not an improvement from Cure II and it won't do you any good unless the whole group to stacked together. l2p
B. The poster you are responding to said "learn how to not overheal," not "learn how to heal." It is a legitimate suggestion. l2read
C. The MP penalty for overhealing is hardy sufficient, or logical. The only time it would actually have a meaningful penalty above normal MP usage would be on fights longer than, say, Garuda HM. I know there are quite a few, but the enmity penalty would also become a no-factor in those fights as well. Further, this is supposed to mimic how another intelligent or semi-intelligent life form would react to your actions. If you are healing someone so hard that the monster couldn't possibly hope to damage them significantly, they are going to try to kill you first. l2logic


/jerkmode off (don't quote that out of context). Sorry, but you are being obtuse and stubborn.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

I read what you said. I also read you saying Over healing is unavoidable among other nonsense.

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It is unavoidable. That's not nonsense.

You actually think you never land a heal that over-heals? U think all of your heals always perfectly match up with the amount of hp the target had missing? I know you don't really think that.