Dark Knight - Great Sword or Great Scythe poll

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

Lol people loved it because it could also solo some very nasty stuff, in party setups it was a broken record on "refresh" casting, my girlfriend simply stopped partying the job completely and soloed bosses or duod it with me.^^

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You're just simplifying it. Slow/para/dia/bio/magic burst/heal/sleep/refresh/gravity/convert/chainspell/etc. Way more to do than most roles in FFXIV. Of course this is all Pre Abyssea don't know what happened after. Like I've said there's a reason why most mmos are just mainly everyone playing DDs because to them support is boring.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Fixed.

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lol magic fencer.

Wonder how many people who say "Scythes are not weapons" ignore pretty much every iteration of 'Death' wielding one and it being one of the better two handed weapons in JRPGs at least next to Polearms.

Scythes make the most sense since XI as the storyline for Dark Knight (yeah remember when jobs had actual lore and storyline that were relevant to the world's story?) is very closely related to death.

Correct me if I'm wrong, is this Death?:

http://i62.tinypic.com/x0yaz9.jpg

I wonder what's in his hand? I guess he's off to harvest some potatoes.

One handed sword, no shield.
Get dat Cecil up in here.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Fyi: XI was (and likely still is) the most profitable FF title to date, it doesn't matter what your opinion is when it comes to what how Dark Knight should be designed as FF classes evolves over time and XI gave more personality to them, usually you want it to evolve higher rather than regress and yes, you do come off as hating as XI didn't "ruin" anything.

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False. FFXI's design for DRK was borderline horrible when the only real worth the job had was kraken club zergs (which eventually got Souleater nerfed). It had next to no use for black magic yet had a spell list bloated with elemental magic spells that basically collected dust. The two-hander update and Hasso at most alleviated the problem and made the job's flaws a lot less glaring, but lets not pretend it was perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as RDM...my sig. Read it.

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The ironic thing is, XIV ruined Black Mage and Summoner.

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Both jobs are functional, both have solid mechanics, both are used in endgame. Sorry but FFXIV didn't ruin BLM and SMN. What it did is drop asinine notions like the "glass cannon that does nothing once its MP is used up" that interestingly enough is why no one wanted BLMs in parties in FFXI once the pointlessness of skillchain+magic burst came to light. Unlike FFXI, XIV gave us proper adaptations of both jobs fit for an MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Doo

lol cuz players just wanted it to be a magic fencer when FFXI made it support. Most rdms that I knew that played the job loved the easy invites for groups and the leverage it gave them in group content because it was a role no one liked to play.

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Doo

You're just simplifying it. Slow/para/dia/bio/magic burst/heal/sleep/refresh/gravity/convert/chainspell/etc. Way more to do than most roles in FFXIV. Of course this is all Pre Abyssea don't know what happened after. Like I've said there's a reason why most mmos are just mainly everyone playing DDs because to them support is boring.

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Oh I agree completely, and the previous comment as to rdm being unintended failure in xi pretty much describes jobs in xi in general.

One need look no further than Dynagrind linkshells for many relic gears that were utterly useless to players who built gear sets and played jobs completely outside the nature of SE's original plan for them.

Ninja, thief and the haste craze.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

Oh I agree completely, and the previous comment as to rdm being unintended failure in xi pretty much describes jobs in xi in general.

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Unintended? Some, fun? Definitely. Was Nin tanking fun? yup. More than PLD in FFXIV? By a mile. It's not a bad thing to be unintended. I think some players made Nin/blm work that was awesome.

Great Gunsword

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Originally Posted by Duelle

False. FFXI's design for DRK was borderline horrible when the only real worth the job had was kraken club zergs

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So the last time you played FFXI was 2006?

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Both jobs are functional

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You're right, the only spells Black Mage has ever used were Fire, Thunder and Blizzard. They never had debuffs, buffs or other elemental magic. Summoner also dealt 99% of its damage by melee attacks and debuffs, their summons were only vanity at best.

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As far as RDM...my sig. Read it.

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Which is pure irony considering the way you feel about Dark and consider Black Mage and Summoner "not ruined."

Dark Knights deserve to have a Greatsword. I could understand the want for a scythe, but honestly, it seems as though people forget that Deathbringer (a greatsword) is the signature weapon of a Dark Knight.

Dark Knights may have alot of lore that is tied closely to the aspect of death, but it also isn't called Death Knight.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

I'm not so sure why your being so hard on this guy, he is simply voicing his opinion, as I might add "are you".

The impractical use off a scythe that in xi is "obviously" not pictured in the normal agricultural crafted lines (I know this because in my youth I actually used them), is nothing more than your own personal theory and observation.

The impracticality of the scythe as a weapon in combat would depend on many different factors of situation.

I don't know many people these days who actually use scythes as a work tool, but your knowledge of them is shallow at best, I am a farrier and thereby a blacksmith when needed by trade, and I have a 3lb anvil hammer that can be a very practical weapon at arms length.

I am also an infantry veteran, I happen to have an old friend who when his weapon jammed suffocated an enemy combatant with "mud", people can get very creative with the concept of "practical" in life or death circumstances.

The quote didn't patch I guess, this is in response to quote # 26.

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I am a swordsman of 17 years. Practical is a sword, a two handed stance, and speed to cut down the opponent before they realize their mistake. Impractical is: a weapon where the only sharp part is facing you. I would sooner use a knife than a scythe. I would sooner use a large rock than a scythe. In fact, given the chance, I would prefer to simply take the useless blade off the end and use it as a staff or wooden sword. If a stick or a rock is preferable to a "weapon" then that weapon's design is a failure.

yes, there are a lot of situations where practical and "Holy **** I'm going to die unless I get creative" meet. the scythe is not one of them. I can guarantee you anyone who has used a scythe would be equally or more effective with an axe, or a large rock, or a stick. Literally anything where it could be considered to have been intended as a weapon at some point in it's construction.

And you're right, I haven't spent any time training with scythes, I've trained with swords, knives, staves, archery, throwing knives(and hatchets), pistols, crossbows, and rifles. Things that are in a weird category called "weapons" not farming tools.

It is my opinion that farming tools belong on a farm, not the battlefield. That is the place for tools that are called weapons.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Dark Knights deserve to have a Greatsword. I could understand the want for a scythe, but honestly, it seems as though people forget that Deathbringer (a greatsword) is the signature weapon of a Dark Knight.

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Deathbringer is not a greatsword except in FF11. In FF4, its first use, it was a one-handed weapon (like all of Cecil's weapons). FFX, it was a customization for Tidus, again being one-handed. In FF12, one-handed sword (though there were no dark knights).

//EDIT 2: People don't seem to realize how much FF11 changed about Final Fantasy. Consider this:

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Originally Posted by Volsung

RDM will ALWAYS be very polarizing to people. Some like the support stuff (buffs enfeebs)

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Q: In what iteration of Final Fantasy does Red Mage feature buffs and debuffs?
A: None of them except FF11.

//EDIT: Also,

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Wonder how many people who say "Scythes are not weapons" ignore pretty much every iteration of 'Death' wielding one and it being one of the better two handed weapons in JRPGs at least next to Polearms.

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Read the thread. It has already been explained that THE GRIM REAPER DOES NOT USE THAT SCYTHE FOR COMBAT.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You're right, the only spells Black Mage has ever used were Fire, Thunder and Blizzard. They never had debuffs, buffs or other elemental magic. Summoner also dealt 99% of its damage by melee attacks and debuffs, their summons were only vanity at best.



Which is pure irony considering the way you feel about Dark and consider Black Mage and Summoner "not ruined."

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Blm lack spells and elemental wheel dmg.
Smn became some gimp dot damage dealer that mainly uses one primal that looks more like a Pokemon.
Brd turned into some gimp version of ranger.

And some how FFXI ruined classic jobs.

Scythe all the way!

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Deathbringer is not a greatsword except in FF11. In FF4, its first use, it was a one-handed weapon (like all of Cecil's weapons). FFX, it was a customization for Tidus, again being one-handed. In FF12, one-handed sword (though there were no dark knights).

//EDIT: Also,



Read the thread. It has already been explained that THE GRIM REAPER DOES NOT USE THAT SCYTHE FOR COMBAT.

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By that logic then Kain (also from FF4) only used javelins and not lances. Cecil had acces to shields, this is true. But as a dark Knight, did he ever use his shield for anything more than a token defence animation? His shield only really had any effect as a Paladin.

Im sure the dev team will see things this way. Besides, Anyone who played during 1.0 will know that the *hero* character had a greatsword (though he did also uses a bow for most of it) on his back in the trailer for the game. Its past time we got our hands on one ourselves.

The more Yoshida strays from FFXI's absolutely terrible, heavily unbalanced job system the better FFXIV will be.

My vote goes to Sword as Cecil Harvey and Goffard Gaffgarion used them.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

The more Yoshida strays from FFXI's absolutely terrible, heavily unbalanced job system the better FFXIV will be.

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Instead, the more he strays from Final Fantasy in general and gives us basically a generic MMORPG with a FF Texture pack.

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Originally Posted by Rissy

Then we don't need Dark Knight. The whole gimmick of Dark Knight is sacrificing HP for damaging attacks, and you don't want your tanks sacrificing their HP.

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What if you turned the concept on its head into sacrificing enemy HP for defense?

People shouldn't get so stuck in "This class/job has been this way in Final Fantasy and so it must be forever and ever and ever and always!"

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Originally Posted by Naunet

What if you turned the concept on its head into sacrificing enemy HP for defense?

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That's called a Warrior in this game~

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Originally Posted by Naunet

What if you turned the concept on its head into sacrificing enemy HP for defense?

People shouldn't get so stuck in "This class/job has been this way in Final Fantasy and so it must be forever and ever and ever and always!"

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Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn.

Twisting stuff around is why this MMO is nothing but a generic MMORPG with FF elements. You're right though, Black Mage should be a healer and Conjurer/White Mage should be the tank or debuffer..I mean, let's switch stuff around for the sake of switching. Dark Knight was one of the more unique classes where sacrifices were the whole point of the class..why do you think Cecil cleansed himself to become a Paladin? Paladin and Dark Knight are polar opposites in the Final Fantasy Mythos - One is about protection and divine magic, the other is about death and destruction even if said destruction is of yourself to kill your enemies.

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Originally Posted by Rissy

That's called a Warrior in this game~

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Also this - You got them getting away from Final Fantasy, as per your wishes. :D

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Originally Posted by Rissy

That's called a Warrior in this game~

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Beat me to it. lol

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

By that logic then Kain (also from FF4) only used jevalins and not lances.

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That makes no sense. Kain used spears, all named Spear or Lance, and Kain was the third dragoon to make an appearance -- FF2's Ricard Highwind and FF3's Dragoon both wielded spears as well. Moreover, while we call the class Lancer in FFXIV for whatever reason, lances are a mounted weapon and lancers are cavalry. Chalk it up to translators taking excess liberties with naming, as the Japanese name apparently amounts to spear specialist.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Cecil had acces to shields, this is true. But as a dark Knight, did he ever use his shield for anything more than a token defence animation? His shield only really had any effect as a Paladin.

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Except it didn't have any additional effect as a Paladin. Cecil never had any abilities at all related to the shield, and there has never been a shield in his animations whether Dark Knight or Paladin. The shield was always a stat stick in FF4, and shields didn't even display in any capacity.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Besides, Anyone who played during 1.0 will know that the *hero* character had a greatsword (though he did also uses a bow for most of it) on his back in the trailer for the game. Its past time we got our hands on one ourselves.

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There is a lot from the trailers not realized ingame, you know. That aside, having a two-handed sword job does not mean Dark Knight, especially when Dark Knight does not traditionally use said weapons. If you're going by appearances, then Red Mage from FF12 International could wield greatswords, and Knight/Paladin has the most appearances with the weapon (11-12i-TA-TA2).

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Instead, the more he strays from Final Fantasy in general and gives us basically a generic MMORPG with a FF Texture pack.

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You're on a roll Tupsi.
http://gamedesignreviews.com/wp-cont...1/11/aeris.jpg

Players seem to care so much about being true to classic ff games yet they just like FFXIV because it plays more like some other popular mmo I shall not name, with just FFXI graphics.

My point is that Kain also had access to shields. It is rather convenient to say that Dark Knight should use a sword and shield based off of Cecil, but leave out that Dragoon should also be using a shield and a lance.

Tell me if im wrong, but wasn't the skill Cover not affected by shield strength in FF4?

I will give you that alot of stuff in the trailers has yet to be realised. But one thing alot of people forget is that we need more classes. A Greatsword wielding, Dark Knight becoming class/job would be welcome. The last thing we need is a sword and shield using class/job like gladiator or paladin as I don't think many would like it if they already had Dark Knight to 50.

I would rather not use a farmer's tool as my main weapon as a Dark Knight.
http://i.imgur.com/kXEbbMx.png

Give me a sword, Yoshida!

http://home.eyesonff.com/content/att...cecil.png.html
http://drkitachi.files.wordpress.com...ark-knight.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/JNyK7oS.png
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...DarkKnight.jpg

Not as cool :(

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...Ikeda_Icon.png

the missing sworld is 'Atma weapon' fromm FFVI !
the more HP* you have the more you hit !

Why not have Dark Knight use both 2H swords AND Scythes?

I prefer 2H swords myself, I also prefer if it were a tanking class akin to a Blood Death Knight in WoW utilizing diseases, etc to debuff targets and AOE tank....

IT would be nice if this game had "minimal" customizing with respects to your character development and have a reason to have stats differ on say a Scythe to a 2H sword for a single class.

My brother and I agree with you Tanama. Since the very first trailer of XIV he has been wanting his Dark Knight. I very much want him to be able to play alongside me as a job he enjoys with the weapon he loves.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Q: In what iteration of Final Fantasy does Red Mage feature buffs and debuffs?
A: None of them except FF11.

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I'm sorry but this statement is not true. Its ok if you dont like the fact it has support stuff, but
the job has had support stuff since FF1. nulspells, protect, silence, focus, confuse, haste, hold
sleep, sleepra, slow, slowra, temper ..... come on, the first FF game, and you want to tell me
it never had support stuff.

Like I said, RDM has a polarizing effect, and you obviously want to hold onto a rdm that might
be different than what others want. We will ALL want different things out of red mage, SE
will not be able to please everyone.

EDIT: and a class/job can have support without it having to be the defining feature.

EDIT2: and I hope people read this - the reason SE won't be able to please everyone is because
it has to fit into a role of healer or DD. There is no support,mix, or choice roles atm.

EDIT3: sorry for the attitude, I didn't appreciate the way you replied.

im voting greatsword because Scythe's are overrated and also only used in 1 instance of darkknights, all other versions used a type of sword and possible shield.

this game is NOT final fantasy 11, everything does not need to be 100% copypasted.

Pretty sure Dark Knight uses a utility belt.

Oh I know! Make a greatsword that's transformable to a scythe!
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1013...l-scythe-o.gif

Now, scythes are more symbolic than they are practical (though they are indeed practical in battle) so I'll take them for the dark knight any time.

also, this guy was totally cool:
http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/.../haseo3nw9.jpg

gunscythe.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YgC_9Qk7N7..._gunscythe.jpg

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Originally Posted by Volsung

We will ALL want different things out of red mage, SE
will not be able to please everyone.

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You can't but if you make it into a generic dd, it will please most.

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Originally Posted by Phe

gunscythe.

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Awesome!

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Originally Posted by Volsung

I'm sorry but this statement is not true. Its ok if you dont like the fact it has support stuff, but
the job has had support stuff since FF1. nulspells, protect, silence, focus, confuse, haste, hold
sleep, sleepra, slow, slowra, temper ..... come on, the first FF game, and you want to tell me
it never had support stuff.

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the bad thing about this is, blm and whm do not have access to alot of these skills. which would be the whole point. rdm can only use whm and blm spells.

Scythe please. And lol @ people saying a farmers tool can't be a weapon in a friggin fantasy game. This is fantasy people!!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gheathc...AluKendama.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...8849-genis.jpg

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

Scythe please. And lol @ people saying a farmers tool can't be a weapon in a friggin fantasy game. This is fantasy people!!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gheathc...AluKendama.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...8849-genis.jpg

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The difference between Genius's Kendama in this context is that it was not intended to be a weapon. It was used as a tool for him to keep his concentration and focus while casting his Artes.
The Dark Knight weapon should be a sword one hand or two is fine.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Dark Knight was one of the more unique classes where sacrifices were the whole point of the class..why do you think Cecil cleansed himself to become a Paladin?

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Probably because he kept wasting his HP on attacks only slightly better than his auto-attack and was pissing his healers off.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

My point is that Kain also had access to shields.

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And swords and axes if you were so inclined.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

It is rather convenient to say that Dark Knight should use a sword and shield based off of Cecil, but leave out that Dragoon should also be using a shield and a lance.

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There's just so many things wrong with this. Kain is not as important to dragoons as Cecil is to Dark Knights. In FF2, Dark Knight was just a name; in FF3, it was a knight job with white magic and not really a Dark Knight at all. Cecil was what defined Dark Knight for the series. Dragoons as spear-wielding warriors showed up FF2 and got Jump in FF3, pretty well solidifying their development. Kain in FF4 was a chip off the old block; Cecil was a trendsetter. By now, Dragoons have a long history of forgoing the shield; Cid, Ward, Freya, Kimahri, TA, TA2 all cannot equip shields.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Tell me if im wrong, but wasn't the skill Cover not affected by shield strength in FF4?

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Not in the initial release, at least.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

But one thing alot of people forget is that we need more classes. A Greatsword wielding, Dark Knight becoming class/job would be welcome. The last thing we need is a sword and shield using class/job like gladiator or paladin as I don't think many would like it if they already had Dark Knight to 50.

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The last thing we need is yet another junk melee DPS class built to take advantage of a weapon suited to other uses.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

I'm sorry but this statement is not true. Its ok if you dont like the fact it has support stuff, but
the job has had support stuff since FF1. nulspells, protect, silence, focus, confuse, haste, hold
sleep, sleepra, slow, slowra, temper ..... come on, the first FF game, and you want to tell me
it never had support stuff.

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Except that all of them were merely inherited from Black Mage and White Mage. They were rarely used at all, let alone were they featured on Red Mage. Meanwhile, Red Mage attack spells did just as much damage as those cast by their pure-mage counterparts. But let's continue to say what Red Mage actually has a history of doing. In FF3, it just kind of sucked, and in FF5, it earned the Doublecast ability for the express purpose of nuking. In 12i, it could wield a greatsword and use the second-most powerful nuke (Ardor is second after Scathe, which is unique to Black Mages). In TA/TA2, it retained doublecast for nuking. This is not "a support job" and never has been except in landfill-fodder FF11.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Like I said, RDM has a polarizing effect, and you obviously want to hold onto a rdm that might be different than what others want. We will ALL want different things out of red mage, SE
will not be able to please everyone.

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I don't think you understand. The portion of people who want or would be anything other than exceedingly annoyed by FF11 RDM are a tiny portion of the player population. You can't please everyone, but you sure can please the vast majority.

I can't vote because I want both.

Just bring Dark knight already I promise to sub 2 years in advance.