DEV Team Please adjust ilvl requirement for The Lost City of Amdapor. Pharos all over

I'll withhold my judgment until I actually see the dungeon, but hopefully if they're setting it at such a low ilvl that it won't turn into another situation that was Pharos/Copperbell/HM. Those dungeons were not tuned for fresh level 50s.

I remember the time people did Coil with DL and AK gears.

They should just sync iLvL down on all of the 50 dungeons to, I dunno, 3 more than the minimum requirement. Then nobody would have to worry about carrying anyone else, everyone would have to contribute, and everyone would learn mechanics.

Then nobody will do anything because it's too hard, and everyone will complain that there isn't enough content. Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

They should just sync iLvL down on all of the 50 dungeons to, I dunno, 3 more than the minimum requirement. Then nobody would have to worry about carrying anyone else, everyone would have to contribute, and everyone would learn mechanics.

Then nobody will do anything because it's too hard, and everyone will complain that there isn't enough content. Oh wait...

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Honestly...I'd love for dungeons to have an ilv sync. Not 3 ilv, but maybe 10-15. Trials maybe 15-20 cap. And maybe have an option to make it even more synced (for groups who want a challenge)

But yeah...people would just complain about that, since they'd have to actually learn the content and be good at their jobs...

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

They should just sync iLvL down on all of the 50 dungeons to, I dunno, 3 more than the minimum requirement. Then nobody would have to worry about carrying anyone else, everyone would have to contribute, and everyone would learn mechanics.

Then nobody will do anything because it's too hard, and everyone will complain that there isn't enough content. Oh wait...

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This actually would be better because SE could tune the content for a specific level range (though it would make high level gear nearly pointless). The way it is now it seems like they tune a dungeon like Pharos for ilvl 60 or so but then make the requirement ilvl 48 because it is possible if very skilled to do it at that level. The problem is that most players are not that skilled. Regardless of ilvl a lot of players are only ok and make mistakes here or there. At a higher ilvl you can screw up and still pass the content. At the bare minimum ilvl you either have to never screw up or be carried by better skilled/ geared players. I think most people would prefer the ilvl requirement to be set at a level where you don't have to be great, but only a bit above average.

If you're worried about a higher ilvl requirement unfairly locking people out and preventing people from progressing, keep in mind that running the currently available dungeons once each will easily put you way over the ilvl 55requirement.

1. Set your own Ilvl requirements in PF
2. Wait for 3 other people
3. Queue
4.????
5.Profit

If you don't want to play with undergeared people then you have more than enough resources to prevent form doing so. Let the Devs handle real issues.

If they plan to make the dungeons so easy why label them hard mode? Some of us would like hard that means something. These aren't hard, they are low level dungeons reused with high level mobs.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Except there are damage caps in this game despite the lack of depth. Proper Rotations does only so much if you don't have at least the bare minimum gear to back it up. If you're rocking tortoise shell hora at level 50, you won't do as much damage as a monk doing his rotations in his Zenith or Primal Extreme weapon.

So skill and rotation does matter, but the stat caps also matter since this game has very little depth and is a stat vomit game, it requires a certain amount to keep up. For example it's extremely noticable when you have a healer with a base relic vs zenith.

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The thing is you don't need ilvl 70+ DPS for hard mode dungeons. A good player with ilv 50+ can do enough damage to clear the dungeon, as long he knows what he's doing.

And the little depth comment is fun, seeing how many ppl still play their roles wrongly.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I'll withhold my judgment until I actually see the dungeon, but hopefully if they're setting it at such a low ilvl that it won't turn into another situation that was Pharos/Copperbell/HM. Those dungeons were not tuned for fresh level 50s.

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This.

I kick myself for unlocking Manor and Copperbell hard every single time I end up in it. Never unlocked Pharos and probably never will. Ive ran Manor with good geared people and its not a bad run. Nice change from WP for tomes. But to often the DPS just SUCK and turn it into a 45 min rage educing trial at best. Never clearing it because of time out or abandon at worst.

Hell even now I get groups who can't down the wall in AK. Just last week I had to run AK for my second relic weapon. Took 3 tries to get past the wall. Third try only 2 were alive. Me and one of the DPS (barely).

I refused to do anything higher than CM or Pre till I was full DL. Didn't touch Titan Hard till I had all myth ACC and 2 armor. I didn't want to be the one dragging everyone back and wasting mine (and their) time. But apparently no one else thinks like this.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

1. Set your own Ilvl requirements in PF
2. Wait for 3 other people
3. Queue
4.????
5.Profit

If you don't want to play with undergeared people then you have more than enough resources to prevent form doing so. Let the Devs handle real issues.

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The Problem is if they add the Lost City to Duty Roulette will it turn into a Second Pharos Sirius? Where some people drop after they find out they got it. Yes I can make a party finder and shouldn't have an issue but when using DR that's where the issue occurs. If this dungeon is indeed the new Tomestone location then I'll be using Party Finder.

[QUOTE=Arkista;1930436]I'll complain I'm a customer.

The only issues I ever had in Pharos Sirius is people leaving the dungeon before everyone can skip the CS. Pharos Sirius is not hard. And by the looks of this new place it isn't going to be hard either.QUOTE]

People leave before others finish vs because you do not get df penalty then. You do if you wait

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Honestly...I'd love for dungeons to have an ilv sync. Not 3 ilv, but maybe 10-15. Trials maybe 15-20 cap. And maybe have an option to make it even more synced (for groups who want a challenge)

But yeah...people would just complain about that, since they'd have to actually learn the content and be good at their jobs...

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All this would do is force those of us who can do the content nd spent the time to gear up to do it in the slowest way possible. There ARE side effects to this that aren't about people learning the content or being good at their jobs. Those of us who already do that just fine would be unfairly punished because everyone wants everyone else to play like they do.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

1. Set your own Ilvl requirements in PF
2. Wait for 3 other people
3. Queue
4.????
5.Profit

If you don't want to play with undergeared people then you have more than enough resources to prevent form doing so. Let the Devs handle real issues.

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Yea but Roulette gives more tomstones and that's where people run into problems. If only PF gave more! lol

I'll admit I was rather confused on why the game needed more ilv 55 dungeons. I don't even run the current 4 man hard mode dungeons anymore. There's really no point, the gear they drop has no value to me.

I'm pretty sure we need more places for i90 folks to go.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

or else u can have freshly dinged 50s in your dungeon with you, who have little/no experience of the game. Be careful what you wish for/defend guys, because this ilvl WILL harm the game.

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LMAO, what utter garbage, if a level 50 doesn't 'know how to play' when they hit 50, endless grinding of Tome ain't gonna make them better.

Stop demanding all content is gated by horrible gear grinds.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

All this would do is force those of us who can do the content nd spent the time to gear up to do it in the slowest way possible. There ARE side effects to this that aren't about people learning the content or being good at their jobs. Those of us who already do that just fine would be unfairly punished because everyone wants everyone else to play like they do.

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So make it not apply to pre-mades. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by KraggyKor

LMAO, what utter garbage, if a level 50 doesn't 'know how to play' when they hit 50, endless grinding of Tome ain't gonna make them better.

Stop demanding all content is gated by horrible gear grinds.

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I really don't see how playing lower level dungeons even once is gating all content behind horrible gear grinds. I'm not really sure why they didn't just make the quests to open these new dungeons have a prerequisite that would indicate some endgame experience. It's mostly an issue of progression. It seems odd to me that every dungeon should be open almost immediately at 50 instead of being led through them in some kind of order like with the leveling dungeons. Considering they're advertising the new dungeons as hard, it looks silly that a large portion of the user base outgeared them several months ago.

It took me less than a week to get to i75 on an alt character I hardly spent time on. I don't think new players will have trouble getting there in 2.2 on a main so just increase the iLvl please.

Look, putting aside all the talk about players and skill levels and ilevel, Square has their own internal play testers that they set loose on new content, like dungeons, and it's from these test runs that they figure what the minimum ilevel should be. If these testers feel iL55 is what the dungeon should be, then iL55 it is. It would have to be one of the worst players to fail so hard in an iL55 gearset that the run couldn't be completed. I've seen people that bad, and it was not because of their gear (how can someone be so bad when they have a Faerie Bow?... seriously, recent Pharos run, complete moron of a bard).

I honestly think most low ilvls and fresh 50s would prefer pharos sirius to have a higher itemlevel requirement so they don't get a dungeon too difficult for them through DR...

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Look, putting aside all the talk about players and skill levels and ilevel, Square has their own internal play testers that they set loose on new content, like dungeons, and it's from these test runs that they figure what the minimum ilevel should be. If these testers feel iL55 is what the dungeon should be, then iL55 it is. It would have to be one of the worst players to fail so hard in an iL55 gearset that the run couldn't be completed. I've seen people that bad, and it was not because of their gear (how can someone be so bad when they have a Faerie Bow?... seriously, recent Pharos run, complete moron of a bard).

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It's yet to be seen how hard the dungeons actually are, but I've definitely run into players that can't complete runs because of their gear. It's usually tanks who either die too easily, or more often can't hold hate against much better geared DPS. Mobs move, healers waste mp healing DPS, DPS slows or halts due to positioning or to let tank retake enmity, etc. Things just start to get sloppy and the gear discrepancy between potential players will only get worse as you could end up with a 55 tank and a 110 (assuming this is the new cap for 2.2) DPS in these dungeons in the future. Further, it's just strange to add new dungeons for new high end gear (through tomes) and not even 1 of them is tuned for players that have the current high end gear.

Just going to say the new dungeons become a bit more difficult but really I do randoms to teach people or to waste time. I don't rely on the dungeons to tome cap.

SE you set the iLVL Requirements a bit TOO LOW!

Even 5 more would do on Pharos, CT, or HM's.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

So make it not apply to pre-mades. Problem solved.

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No. It won't. What if I joined a duty roulette. I would once again be punished despite being geared and skilled at the same time. It would then punish the group because I couldn't bring the full brunt of my ability to bear. This simply is not an answer what-so-ever. It's a selfish attempt to make other people play the way the OP wants them to. Back off and let us play properly.

The real answer here is to have two end game duty finder options for roulette because lets be honest. Most of us are in these dungeons with unexperienced people almost solely because we chose the duty roulette. A better fix would be to have two high level options. High-level 30 myth difficulty and a High-level 50 myth difficulty. The 50 myth difficulty would have the harder dungeons. Those of us unable to handle that would choose the 30 myth option. This would take care of a fair amount of the problems here and doesn't force people to play one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

I'll admit I was rather confused on why the game needed more ilv 55 dungeons. I don't even run the current 4 man hard mode dungeons anymore. There's really no point, the gear they drop has no value to me.

I'm pretty sure we need more places for i90 folks to go.

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Once the myth cap is unlocked people will once again return to these dungeons for speed runs and myth parties. It may be nearly useless today but in a few weeks that will all change. Myth will completely replace Philo.

Why not just make the dungeons easier and leave the iLvl requirement how it is. Then people wouldn't have to over gear it to win.

I think good players should just help bad players get better. The difference between I50 and full I90 is about 70% damage for DPS.
Most I90 do 300+ DPS. So with the same skillset an I50 should be close to 170. Yet most are barely 120.
I90 gear would bring them to 200 DPS.

So a good player in I50 = a bad player in I80. So teach players to be better.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Once the myth cap is unlocked people will once again return to these dungeons for speed runs and myth parties. It may be nearly useless today but in a few weeks that will all change. Myth will completely replace Philo.

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I kind of doubt that to be honest. Maybe some people will do this, but more likely BCoB turns 2 and 4 will be spammed to death for the same number of mythology tomes, a chance at i90 gear, and shorter clear times.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

I kind of doubt that to be honest. Maybe some people will do this, but more likely BCoB turns 2 and 4 will be spammed to death for the same number of mythology tomes, a chance at i90 gear, and shorter clear times.

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I agree some of us will. However, those fights do require more coordination from more people. If I simply want to farm Myth it will be faster, and easier, to speed run these dungeons. There will be times where this is preferable. Then you have some other people who don't care about the coil at all. There is no possible way you can possibly believe the majority of the player base will do it the hardest possible way. People generally take the path of least resistance.

Pharos was only harder because of all the magic damage that the tank took. It also has a higher ilvl than AK and WP too doesn't it? Pharos is on the same level as Haukke hard and Copperbell hard right?

If the City of Amdapor is on the same level as AK and WP there should be no problem at all.

The problem with the ilvl being so low is the fact that now people in crappy gear can fully skip the content we all had to work on to develop our characters, and end up skipping the better part of the game. If SE wants any sort of longevity to their content, and want people to stick around, they need to stagger the ilvl requirements so that people can PROGRESS. If the ilvl req is indeed similar to that of PS and drops i90+ valued tomes/gear then SE is allowing people to basically skip half of the supposed ENDGAME 4 man dungeons.This is a joke imo. If they want to allow everyone to just gear up in three-four weeks by handing out free tomes, why not just give an allowance to each player and not require them to actually do any content.

Instead, it should be that people need to progress to at LEAST i80 to do the new four mans... this will create at least a semblance of a progression system. Im appalled that SE hasn't realized that by handing out free near-endgame gear they are effectively creating a game where people play for the 3-4 weeks required to get to endgame and then quit because there is nothing to progress on. As it is right now, this is already basically the case when they remove caps and such on gear. Its funny to me that they decided to put in a "buff" into the first 5 turns of coil to help people "progress" through the content. I think the whole thing is silly. People should be required to work to move up in ilvl - ie. if you are a new 50, you should be progressing the same way we all did, especially with things like the duty finder now in place giving "free" tomes.

Maybe its just me, but its getting a little bit ridiculous, and I feel like SE is shooting themselves in the foot with handing out basically free upgrades to everyone. I could understand if it was for an expansion and it came with an increase in level cap, but during regular patches... cmon.

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Originally Posted by Garra

ilvl too low.

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Completely agree. SE loves to reward the casuals.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Snip

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I get your point, and really my response was hasty. I agree that there is a balance they need to find.

What happens when level cap goes up? Is there really any justifiable reason to not sync these dungeons then? If not, why postpone this? All lower level dungeons are synced. A common theme on the forums is that there is no challenging content, syncing these dungeons would make them challenging again.

Not applying the requirement to pre-mades doesn't punish you when you do roulette, the bonus reward is the incentive to accepting the sync requirement. Like a contract, you're saying I am willing to run this in a way that is more difficult than if I were to run with my friends in order to get greater rewards, for this particular run. You could still overgear the crap out of it with your friends and likely get more rewards over a set period of time.

This is not unlike what I think they need to do for story roulette. Increase the rewards to stupid amounts, and make it so cutscenes are unskippable.

In both cases the incentive needs to be high enough to compensate for additional time in the minds of the players.

the idea of a skilled and coordinated group being able to complete the instance doesn't really matter

a roulette group is four people thrown together. they're not going to be able to complete the instance at ilevel 55. I wonder if it's possible for them to assign a different ilevel req for full groups and roulettes.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

I get your point, and really my response was hasty. I agree that there is a balance they need to find.

What happens when level cap goes up? Is there really any justifiable reason to not sync these dungeons then? If not, why postpone this? All lower level dungeons are synced. A common theme on the forums is that there is no challenging content, syncing these dungeons would make them challenging again.

Not applying the requirement to pre-mades doesn't punish you when you do roulette, the bonus reward is the incentive to accepting the sync requirement. Like a contract, you're saying I am willing to run this in a way that is more difficult than if I were to run with my friends in order to get greater rewards, for this particular run. You could still overgear the crap out of it with your friends and likely get more rewards over a set period of time.

This is not unlike what I think they need to do for story roulette. Increase the rewards to stupid amounts, and make it so cutscenes are unskippable.

In both cases the incentive needs to be high enough to compensate for additional time in the minds of the players.

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When level cap goes up - it comes with a plethora of new regular quests that would likely be at the same ilvl as the best gear current in the game as people level up through the new content. The idea of synching is exactly the same as requiring a high-level of gear except it will allow players who are skilled to SKIP content we all had to do to get to where we are.If you allow synching to become the only holdback on people then again, you are allowing people to skip content and PROGESSION. This creates a system where people are basically allowed entry into the hardest content in the game and skipping over any middle areas. This will cause them to get bored within 3-4 weeks and cause the same situation we have seen basically throughout all of ARR. Granted SE will probably do something silly with expansions that I cant even fathom and mess things up even more than they are already with regards to progression...

Your idea for FORCING people to watch the damn cutscenes would make me want to cut my eyes out haha, those runs are already far too long for the rewards at least where we are at in terms of average ilvl in today's game. This again relates back to the above points I've made... progression is basically non-existent in this game. Its all about waiting till the next patch till the gear people worked for is now free because they nerf everything into the ground so everyone gets to "try" to play the hardest content.

SE is effectively cutting out 50% of the game by allowing people to skip stuff so easily by giving out free gear.

is there something wrong with everyone getting to play the content? there will always be the hardest content that keeps people out but when the newest comes out it will be made more accessible for others to play.

and that is how se wants it there is nothing wrong with this.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

is there something wrong with everyone getting to play the content? there will always be the hardest content that keeps people out but when the newest comes out it will be made more accessible for others to play.

and that is how se wants it there is nothing wrong with this.

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They are shooting themselves in the foot, that's what's wrong with it. As it is people are already quitting left and right cause they get through all/most of the content and find nothing else to do in the game other than level other classes.

EVERYONE getting to play the new content causes people who suck to struggle for a little while and then ragequit the game, and causes people who actually will stick around to do the same after getting bored because SE decides to release NEW content that is zergable within a week.

Your idea that the "hardest content" keeps people out is silly because, that amounts to one dungeon each patch as they keep allowing everyone to jump up to JUST before it within a matter of weeks. I don't know about you, but I imagine that you would be much more engaged if you actually played through the whole game, rather than be given the chance to just try out the endgame stuff without actually learning your class/mechanics/how to actually play the game. Beyond this, SE is very heavily focused on creating a real story within their games and they are basically allowing people to just skip through it for the sake of allowing EVERYONE to be wearing the same gear. It literally makes no sense from a business standpoint, the average player joins for a small time period, gets bored and quits, we all know it.

I would love to see a concrete reason for allowing people to skip through half of the game.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

is there something wrong with everyone getting to play the content? there will always be the hardest content that keeps people out but when the newest comes out it will be made more accessible for others to play.

and that is how se wants it there is nothing wrong with this.

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They could at least have one or two that was for higher ilvl... I mean, we will go from grinding WP etc. to farming this, and there won't be any challenges since everyone is over-geared.

Everyone would be able to play the content even if it was higher ilvl. If you haven't heard, Myth cap is gone with 2.2, which means everyone can easily farm up a job to ilvl90 in no time at all.... Why make the endgame even shorter ?

You guys have to realize that ilvl90 is the new Darklight in 2.2...

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Originally Posted by Craiger

They could at least have one or two that was for higher ilvl... I mean, we will go from grinding WP etc. to farming this, and there won't be any challenges since everyone is over-geared.

Everyone would be able to play the content even if it was higher ilvl. If you haven't heard, Myth cap is gone with 2.2, which means everyone can easily farm up a job to ilvl90 in no time at all.... Why make the endgame even shorter ?

You guys have to realize that ilvl90 is the new Darklight in 2.2...

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SE is insane to continue to operate in this manner. They spend all of this time creating new content and then basically throw it out when they make a new large patch like this one. WP, AK, and PS are already things of the past and will become even more so. Why would anyone run these when they can do the same difficulty of content for i100+ gear tomes. You can already just zerg CT for myth tomes as it is, and anyone who has half a brain that I have talked to think its ridiculous. This also leads to them trying to bandaid fix their idiotic progression system by only allowing people 1 drop per week to help slow down the process... Why would you do this, if your goal is to allow everyone to gear up to the maximum in the shortest possible time. If you want to slow people down, then stop allowing everyone to just farm the content every Monday and then not play for the rest of the entire week, its just idiotic.

This exactly - and 90% of these accepted changes are already ridiculously silly. Myth cap being gone is stupid, it just further contributes to this lack of progression.

myth cap is just a way to prevent players from fully gearing and quiting.

keeping it after only keep players behind. if it takes months to gear out in i90 just so you can start turns 6-9 when turn 20 is already out you will never catch up and it will turn alot of players off simply because they have to go through all those grinds. from philo to myth to the new one and so on and so furth.

it will do nothing but scare players from wanting to play a game where 50% of the content is in accessible because they started later.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

myth cap is just a way to prevent players from fully gearing and quiting.

keeping it after only keep players behind.if it takes months to gear out in i90 just so you can start turns 6-9 when turn 20 is already out you will never catch up and it will turn alot of players off simply because they have to go through all those grinds. from philo to myth to the new one and so on and so furth.

it will do nothing but scare players from wanting to play a game where 50% of the content is in accessible because they started later.

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This would maybe be the case if we were already at turn 20. Keeping the myth cap will basically allow people to slowly progress to the harder content without actually being required to do any "work" (harder instances).

You are basically saying that the way progression should work is that, we should be forced to wait each week as we cap our tomes, and then once we all get through our 5-7 weeks of waiting we are in the best gear. Don't you think it would make more sense to actually have to play the game and do the dungeons to get this gear efficiently?

Keeping players "behind" as you say is the whole point of a progression system. If you cannot beat the content, then you do not get to progress. The fact that it takes like 3-5 hours to basically cap myth as it is and rewards you with a piece of some of the best gear you can get in the game basically for free each week is already fast enough to help people gear up to current content.

And the idea that these are just grinds is not the case, if being able to skip half of the content in the game prevents a "grind" then I guess you work for SE.

The problem with the i55 requirement is that it will probably be tuned for i55, which means that anyone who's been playing for more than a month will absolutely destroy the dungeons. Since they drop the new tomestones, that means that dungeons with similar difficulty to PS and Amdapor Keep are offering rewards that are superior to Binding Coil 1-5. If the ilvl requirement was around 65~70 (the same as Extreme Primals and likely what duty finder Coil will need) and the monster damage/HP levels were tuned for it, that'd be great. New players can gear up quickly with crafted gear and duty roulette for Philosophy and Mythology tomes (which are having the cap removed), then earn the new tomestones from the new dungeons and Coil.