Tank and heal shortage

Just saying - taking less responsible role means very long queue, and then someone less capable may be playing that role, so run may either take very long time or even fail. I know - tanker/healer gets all the hate if something goes wrong (many people simply quit if i dont revive them), but i just do my part and do not care about the rest (including what they say or think). If i did my best, but people still hate me - then they are not right about it (there is nothing i could do more), so it should not bother me. Also i never talk in team chat besides hi/bye/1st_time - reduces hatred received dramatically.

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Originally Posted by eschaton

The tank shortage is becoming more serious as it influences all queues. The game could benefit from making people want to tank more. Maybe give them more shiny armor pieces ;)

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Actually, all they'd need to do is make it logical for a DD role (s) to become the 'puller' and allow tanks to position themselves to grab/aggro the mobs and hold them in position. It's not the job that turns people off as much as the job+the constant pace-setting for the group+ added responsibility. So if SE could figure out a way to make it so a DD was the logical 'puller' then all the sudden, a DD and not the tanks would be responsible for setting the group pace through trash mobs...AND lessen some of the tanks responsibility while giving the DD a little more of the group shared responsibility.

(IE, give tanks a move that + increases their DD/DEF or EMN if they pull mobs off a teammate...and maybe give select DD's (doesn't have to be every dd) a +attack/skill speed/acc or -emn bonus for holding hate/swapping their hate with another party member.

This of course, is just an idea...but the main reason many players opt to NOT tank/heal=added pressure/knowledge needed or more responsibility. If SE could figure out a way to take some of the tanks NON role-specific pressures away, then maybe, more people who enjoy the gameplay of tank...but not the pressure of being the 'leader'/'pacesetter' would play the role.

Shiny armor won't work.
Shorter Queues afterall doesn't work...all this does is allow some 'abusive' players a way to abuse the system (Spamming withdraw for the 'fast queue'), tarnishing the good name of many tanks in the process....AND turning even more people off to the role (people who think...I don't wanna be associated with those kind of players)
Better 'Player in Need' rewards don't work well either.

So basically, bribes won't work...SE needs to look at the mechanics/party responsibilitys and make adjustments there...and even then, people either like to heal or they don't...same is true with tanking. Not everyone likes giving up personal damage output for defense...just like not everyone likes to do an epic battle without throwing out a single attack spell or move, all while keeping their party alive (healing) or taking max damage to their face without falling through mitigation and sheer will (tanking).

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So basically, bribes won't work...SE needs to look at the mechanics/party responsibilitys and make adjustments there...and even then, people either like to heal or they don't...same is true with tanking. Not everyone likes giving up personal damage output for defense...just like not everyone likes to do an epic battle without throwing out a single attack spell or move, all while keeping their party alive (healing) or taking max damage to their face without falling through mitigation and sheer will (tanking).

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The problem is a combination of responsibility and aesthetics. You can give more tank variety to fix the latter (BST and SAM as tanks would be very different from WAR and PLD), but the former will be a main deterrent from tanking for some for a while.

And making needlessly complicated mechanics won't do the trick.

Then level a tank and healer job.

I roll a DRG main. I take my role in groups seriously. As a Dps class I find it my job too take out the adds as fast I as I can too reduce the amount of damage on the tank if possible. I also find myself solo killing the adds on the tonberry king in Wp.. even when we have a BLM in group. cause they do not kill them fast enough or do not know how too do it. But then again I was showed how too do things like that from a group of FFXi and 1.0 players. That stressed it was the DPS job too kill the adds and get them. I also role as a tank WAR to be honest. I notice when I tank for groups alot of them are like take it too the tank. Have him Flash them and hold them and focus on the boss. What does this do.. it puts more pressure on the tank and the healer. Cause now the healer has to burn extra MP too heal the tank. and the tank at times has too go down to the last inch of health for the healer too gain mp back. So yes as a DPS I take my responsablity to the tank and healer very seriously.

If we didn't look like walking tin cans more people might be inclined to tank. I'm only a tank because I thought the Warrior was a dps (derp lol) when FFXIV:ARR beta went live. However I have tanked/dps/healed in other games so I'm comfortable with any class. I love big axes and being a War, then Pld, as the game progress only made me fall in love with tanking. Nothing beats the feeling of having your party wipe from an attack with only you as a the survivor and still manage to solo the the boss, and win.

Also we need more axe's like the Dual Hakan and make it bigger. Currently the weapon, I think the Primal axe is the only one that does this, shrinks when sheathed but expands when drawn. I think it should stay the same, drawn size when sheathed so it gives that feeling of "I look badass, with my giant axe" which will always impress people and maybe encourage them to try the class so they can replicate that said feeling for themselves.

I leveled a DPS first then both healer jobs. I decided to try tanking because I've tanked before in other MMO's. I did 5 dungeons from 15 - 18 and it was a complete nightmare. People are too rude, too much in a rush and all are about the "ME ME ME".

It could have been that I queue'ed during Prime Time (I've always noticed over many MMO's that morning time is the best time in terms of helping/less rushed people :o)

Solution
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a) Give Tanks a "Token" each time they complete a non-premade "Duty Finder" Dungeon (not Guildhests.) Similar to Commendations only they'd be "Tank only." Completing 'different' dungeons each day would give you 1 Token for each. Doing the same Dungeon twice in the same day would not yield two Tokens.

These accumulated Tokens would then be spent on Mount(s), Gear, Vanity items, Housing Items Etc. The rewards themselves don't have to be "Tank only". You could throw in rewards that DPS would be interested in; giving them incentive to participate in Duty Finder ques as a Tank.

b) Release Dark Knight. Make it a Tank. Put it into the Lancer class. Give it a Scythe (Polearm). Make it overpowered for eight weeks; then nerf it when the Tank quota has been met.

I didn't see it addressed, but I have to point out that lowering the tank DPS with the "Tanking" buffs we get is infact detrimental. The reason being(And the reason shield oath got an enmity boost in the warrior patch) is very simple. You do not generate as much hatred except with flash as you do WITHOUT SHIELD OATH FOR SINGLE TARGETS. Often times(And a few times i'll admit. I screwed up and didn't switch) i'd start off in sword oath run in with FoF up and rampart get all the hate in the world and as soon as rampart goes down bam. Shield oath. Hate is locked beyond what anyone can do. Except in the case of holding adds with flash(such as speed runs) which is enmity increased by a % from shield oath the sword oath adds MORE agro just from not screwing with the damage to extra enmity you get. Don't think that's the case? Get two equally geared paladins into CT. On an unimportant fight have them pick out a target the rest of the raid is not killing. Pull. Your sword oath paladin can and will hold agro with about a 20% margin on your shield oath paladin. IMO damage reduction needs a minor cut or enmity generation needs a minor bump as normally in any other game a defensive stance tends to make things want to attack you MORE than non defensive stance(Except fire emblem where mages will go to fry a tank and a paladin will go and smack a mage). Kinda a rant, and kinda lurking but it's the truth. As a tank I rarely ever felt dps had responsbility aside from DPS checks. And to me that's not responsbility. that's "Hey are you guys here and do you know how to do your job?". Real responsiblity is say coil 1 feeding slimes. Ever have a great DPS(Kima, Spike, Urd) purposely forcing tail swipes to prevent damage to the tank while aptly dodging? These are things that go above and beyond "Are you a semi-comptent character". Dodging slimes and getting max dps is a gear check since you can litereally set your DPS rotation into a SINGLE BUTTON. My bard friend showed me and I was amazed by it. They were also a bard who was kinda pushed into that place because we needed a bard who could go healer(They had been healing primarily). So, i'll say feeding and doing stuff like forcing NPC's to do stuff like tail swipes and then NOT getting hit are things that a dps can take responsibility and can own for. Things to make them say "You can't ignore me i pull my weight" but if you look at anything that dps do most the time they're not really that impressive. Before i finally got sick of the game I was blessed with the three best DPS that I Had found in this game and they all went well and above what you all seem to think is responisbility. They'd apologize or admit to things and even took responsibility when I didn't think it was their fault.

DPS HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY THEY TAKE. Tanks have 100% responsibility about 75% of the time. healers get it the other 25% of the time in most groups. And despite the fact that the dps just pulled 2 extra packs in WP(That we live through) it's somehow my fault. I've sat down and said unless someone vote kicks him for harassing me for SAVING HIM i'd afk and they could kick me. The DPS in this game minus the few good ones I've met (Like the against all odds PS3 player Leroy) are the worst of ANY game i've played. f2p or not. Tanks will continue to decrease as long as they are treated like crap. And tanks who are treated like crap are going to have an attitude. So that paladin who acts like a dick? Maybe he wasn't always a dick. Maybe playing with others did that to him. Or maybe he's a dick. But we can't know that. And it is NOT a friendly environment for leveling a tank.

I leveled a low level tank to test the waters on how people would feel on even low level jobs... I knew the limitations and i amde mistakes that were recoverable. The group would recover, nobody would die. There was rarely any congrats to the people who ended up helping me with "Mess up" (Which i more or less had control over) there was elitist shit thrown at me that I haven't seen since I raided in EVERQUEST with the guild TRITON or Firestormers before they fell from grace. Ok yeah you needed elitist crap with that content with 54 man crazy shit. But at least there was reasons for that considering any combat round could one shot a tank if everyone wasn't perfect(Yes it was that stupid at times. There was even a god damned hokey pokey thing where if people didn't do what you were supposed to everyone died. YAY). But those people in normal content that makes this crap look retardedly easy were understanding and caring about it. For minor mistakes like purposely losing hate on a mob with 1/8th health left to a lancer I was lectured about how much of a failure I was(AF level synced lancer compared to a lalafell in store/quest gear) and how i should just pick up a DPS. If you had a semi competent tank who lost hate only 3 times on their first run through the dungeon on unimportant parts(Which I did and this is what I claimed) what must the REAL new players be dealing with? You want new players to pick tanks with this being the way I was treated in a few different groups? I can't understand it.

In various posts i've stated my issues with the thread but this is my thoughts on it. in short. Tanks and heals are in short supply because they are held up to a higher standard while all the DPS of the game say they're not. DPS say they shouldn't be rewarded and will blame everything they can on the healer or tank. "I died! Tank or healer sucks!" not "I died... shoulda avoided that tail swipe... or been behind that gargoyle in AK...). It's not just high level. So you're gonna have the people who don't wanna play with other characters and will do fates because everyone loves even a half ok tank in a fate as long as they can flash and throw some damage. Or they do Leves or quests. In my opinion there should be (And correct me if you think i'm wrong) houses that are in each city. These are like the old FFIV houses. In it you can go in and find out the basics of the game. Perhaps have some mock fights. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained. Perhaps have Them walk you through effective uses of tank rotations. Which rotations to pair(Because some are weak alone but work well together. Increase shield block and no crits is a HUGE boon when strapped for real damage reduction on turn 1/3. Give them a challenge for each level. sync them down cap their stats to the trials(For all classes). For DPS they have to kill a mob in X time without removing it from the hate of the instructor who will be "Tanking" it. Tanks will have to hold the threat against the instructor. Heals would have to keep the healer up. If this happened, and you went through quests starting at 1 and going every 5 levels and you gained minor traits or perhaps in dungeon minions that will work for your character or something to show you've worked hard at your job and not just been carried. I know it would need balance but it would train people right. having these trials would be a wonderful way to deal with people not understanding their jobs because they want something that effects their job. And for the love of god, DO NOT MAKE IT SUPER LAG DEPENDANT. I have little to no lag(Although i spike when everyone else spikes no helping that) but that doesn't mean others don't. Make it so that it is certain the person who is facing the trials understands the use of their abilities. If not a minion to help them how about a GOOD ring that you can get that will scale up (And with each tier of gear going up more stuff is added to train people) that has materia slots in it. Now don't go yelling super casual or super hard core. I'm talking about things that people would be working on. Would the highest ring be hard to get? Yes. Why? Because. You are learning the hardest and most advanced portions of your class. This doesn't limit you and it doesn't take away from you. Infact you would probably be able to get a fairly good ring easily if you just started. And then learn a little better on how to deal with unusual circumstances or other things like that as more is introduced. Limit break had a big thing in that it let you see that there was a ceiling you coudln't push through... but you could break it. And each time you broke it you felt WONDERFUL. This would hopefully do the same thing without limiting the character. Now people in full primal gear might not care. But people in full primal/Allagan gear might look at someone who has their ring at second or third highest level and go "Hey. He's not the best geared. but let's give him a chance. He's done up to X. Proof he cares about his job." As it stands Relics are pity weapons. anyone can get them and many have a bunch if not all of them. I could but i just didn't care. And i've killed titan hard mode enough times to do so if i had bothered to level up more than just my smn/war/sch/pld. And that's the problem.
Everyone is awash in a sea of "everyone is the same". But that's not true. When building my coil group I had so many bad players. So many liars and cheats and people who thought they could get away with eating level 1 food when we were trying to progress because they didn't care. I removed them. Especially since as a cook i told them ahead of time that i would go make some acceptable food quick if they'd just supply some shards(I always tried to end recruiting half an hour before we went in). But you can't check class knowledge or effort as accurately here. yes people bought relics in FFXI... but it was rare. and it costs THOUSANDS. and everyone on the server KNEW. That crappy ranger who nobody likes got their relic? Isn't he poor? Ah... Gil sellers... Here we see people who have gotten their relics. Be it carried or not. I can't look at a relic or 90 gear and say "Hey I picked a winner!" Now you might be saying "casual vs elitist" but how long does a trial need to be? Do they need to be done at once? Could each trial be built around showing how you react to mechanics with maybe a 2 times a day attempt? 5 minutes max? With a reward that is quite good and could somehow be paired off with crafters to help fix that problem as well? Perhaps add them to the process? Who knows.

Now you're gonna say it's way off track. I'm going to say this to you. I am not. There are a great many tanks. I've known many MANY people with capped tanks. Most don't tank duty roulette for one reason or another. They fate leveled, or do not have confidence in their abilities. Others dislike dealing with random pugs because they don't want to be blamed whenever a dps brings an extra Dullahan or something and has it cleave the healer and everyone else. They can't trust healers they don't know because often times free companies(And mine is guilty of this and i tried to stay away from this) would go in a 3 heals 4 dps 1 tank rotation where or 2 heals 4 dps 2 tank or 2 heals 5 dps 1 tank rotation depending on who was carried. I hated this and avoided these groups but they happen. So tanks who have a high stress job and get lots of lip from everyone maybe do their daily and that is IT. Want more seals? wanna make more money? They go and do crap with FC or friends list. That's just how it is. Then there are the ones who are good tanks but are thin skinned. they can't take the fact that they're blamed for everything in alot of cases and when they try and point out what really would have happened people go with the "Oh i forgot, tanks can do no wrong". And while decent tanks they often give up on it for something else or just stick to FC. So you have alot of angry dps who know alot of things(but not really) Pushing the tanks who DO que up out of the random que beyond what they need for mythologies. But remember, CT is a great place to farm that while not having to care as a tank either.

Bottom line. The Tank and healer issue is a player problem. Both tanks and healers who decide they don't want to randomly group with people(For valid reasons) and DPS(Both the good and the bad have to pay the price for the very vocal DPS who act like jerks all the time and can do no wrong. As someone under that pressure if you're not used to it, would you bother playing with strangers when you can't tell what type of people they are? The commendation system is fine and all but people just do the leves for it since they're fast and work way better. People as a whole need to step up their game not just in playing it, but in accepting their own faults as well as the faults of their own. as a coil leader(former) I'd be the first to be like huh. Okay guys. I ....Words i probably shouldn't say on forum.... again. My bad. My bad. We need to sacrifice a lalafell to get my mind back on track. Most people int his game aren't interested in what REALLY went wrong but on who the blame can be pinned on most easily. and in a pug, it's the tank. Minus HM. that's where a tank can stand back dodge bombs and be like 'So. Why ya'll screwin up?".

As to dark knight I don't think that would help. You'd be putting a brand new class that differs wildly from the main class and you'd end up with so many clueless tanks ever. If we wanted a new tank class like dark knight i'd say a FFIV style cecil one mixed with some FFtactics(The ps1/psp one). Life drains, damage boosts, fairly high armor high hp and some squishy. This class could very well be the magic melee class where their magic works off their main stat(str) and often time has an HP component. This would work. But we have the tools. And a great many level 50 paladins who DO NOT PLAY THE CLASS. What would adding ANOTHER group of people with a level 50 tank who know nothing about it add to this? It won't reduce que times and would probably have people just deflect it with the "oh i haven't geared up for dark knight yet". The real thing that has to happen is that this community has to calm down and figure out how to treat people in general. But there is nothing in this game to do that. We have no community because nothing is based on server. Even infinite respawnable monsters where you got the parts from killing random mobs or even from completing dungeons(Say you get a quest. you go do WP, AK, Temple of Q then you have a complete item to summon a monster). These monsters will be based for the team and disappear without it. BUt you have to do with people on your own server. Even if it was an illusion, the free gear from FFXI(oh and now i'ma be burned at the stake) that came from competition from conquest points was a GOOD THING early on. You had people developing community and setting up parties and jobs just to go capture certain zones back if it was close. You had so many things that made people want or need to work together. Why not have shop controlled stuff, and crafted items based on both country dominance AND dungeon drops be the ultimate quest. Like Relics. You had a crafter at the center of that. Why? Why not include the crafters in the epic quest? Why not make people feel like a community rather than a bunch of strangers who they might see passing by on the street or maybe in a dungeon? You can try and "Create" community in a game all you want. But if the world doesn't lend itself to that it's very hard to get it to stick. back in 1.0 i'll admit i never made it past like 35 and it was on a trio of crafting classes I had a number of friends i made on masamune who never came back. I would supply them stuff help them with things. I even repaired stuff before they went out to do long hunts. Simple things like this made us talk. In my opinion they've broken the economy beyond belief but if they do manage to fix it, the ability to set a "Haggle" box on the thing that lets you send a haggle message to the person if they are online (A proposed price as well as a small message) would allow communication. I quit, and I had a right to be disappointed. i bought CE both times. I loved FFXI and i loved alot of square's work. But I'm beginning to think that their best is behind them and that they are quickly becoming capcom to me. You are all playing an MMo that won't allow large FC's to work together or group up and has end game content that does more to break apart these FC's(because people are upset that others get in to the static when they wanted the spot). And again you might think it's off topic. But this isn't either. This all leads to community. If you are part of a community you care about it. Even the people you don't like you won't be as vile towards. But in a game where nothing matters, there are no controls, you can't be told to fix your damage, you can't be kicked from a party for failing to do your job, where crafting is a hilariously useless thing except for other crafters and VERY VERY select items.... What do you expect of the "community". I honestly can't see this being called a community. A Massive multiplayer online game shows that stuff should lend towards the MMo. That large groups of people should be able to do things. even EQ before raids had large things to do. This is the only game i've encountered where your whole free company/guild can't do stuff aside from money farm or spirit bond in multiple separate groups. Look at a game like Anarchy online, or EQ now. Those games still have superb communities. They may be "Elite" but they're still around. Look at that bioware game with the star wars name. what was it? KoTOR III online? It followed alot of the things this game is doing. I've never met a "New" gamer who wants to hit cap level ultra fast. I've actually had new gamers come and play EQ or something which i've necroed my account and made a new character and we take it nice and slow. They don't know that my SK could get us to 100 from level 1 in 2 days with about 600-800 aa's(That's bad aa's but those would come quick after). They enjoy the exploration. They like finding lore books, stuff on the ground or invisible walls. They laugh at the graphics but say that all the stuff is cool. And then they keep playing for a while. Longer than I do(I just can't stand how high end has developed in that game and the fact that now that SK is "Cool" people bitch at me for having it as a FoTM class... When she was made in early 2000. Also, dark elf female. No stun resistance. Not l33t in that respect. Everything i got on that character i earned the hardest way possible. But that's the point. new to MMo people play a game like this and rush to 50 and without a good community(there ARE NICE PEOPLE WHO TEACH. I DID TOO. THIS IS THE MINORITY) they are met with alot of grief if they do anything BUT dps. and even then they're not in a great place.

So in closing... We don't have a Tank and heal shortage. We have a community shortage considering everyone in this thread has gladiator/warrior as a class they can play.

Sorry for rant. I believe what I said. I do not believe it is off track but i do believe it stretches the topic a little bit to look at what i believe to be the main CAUSES of what the topic complains about.

When people quit going crazy if healers/tanks commit any mistakes there will be more of them. I'm a healer, I derp and commit mistakes just like every other player, and I learn from those mistakes.
I had to develop thick skin because otherwise, I would quit healing or playing altogether. But not many is willing to cope with the negativity. Everyone is here to have fun, and if you make their lives miserable, they won't really have a reason to play anymore and therefore shortages happen.

Have lancer branch into a polearm plus shield kinda tank class.
Then have pugilist evolve into frontline healing dancer class.
Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Instant queue times is pretty damn rewarding.

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No. It's not. It is absolutely, utterly meaningless when you don't want to be in the queue *at all* any more - because of too many bad past experiences with POS DF "team mates".

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

No. It's not. It is absolutely, utterly meaningless when you don't want to be in the queue *at all* any more - because of too many bad past experiences with POS DF "team mates".

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Learn to be a team player instead of a team hater and maybe you'll find more enjoyment in it. I get that people want an easy ride in this game, I really do. But I've seen so many ill-tempered players who think that they have some special entitlement whenever they join a DF. And yes, sadly many of them turned out to be tanks.

The main reason I ended up levelling Paladin to 50 was to be a benefit rather than a burden. With tanks in short supply, it made sense that if I wanted to be of more benefit to my FC and help them out in various content, I would need to have options. I now have a DPS, Healer and a tank at level 50, all with relic and all decently geared. I treat myself as an equal, not a rival, in any DF I join.

Sure, not all teams are going to be amazing, but patience is a virtue. A bad team today might be a good team tomorrow if they had someone give them gentle advice rather than screaming at them for not dodging or missing a heal. Tolerance is what would benefit the community more than a few good tanks imo.

No.
There is no patience ONLY ZOOOOOOOOOL.
Also get better source material. F--

-When you mark the monsters and everyone attacks willy-nilly
-When the DPS wants to tank the boss and keeps up his "mighty damage" and makes it harder for you to win it back
-When they get pissy about the order in which you marked the trash and sit around pouting
-When the healer dies in a red-zone and blames you
-When for some reason everyone just runs through the dungeon ignoring everything and dies and then yells "WHERE WERE YOU FAGGOT?!"
This all happened when i was learning to tank and THANKFULLY i have a real thick skin so I stuck through it and came out a mediocre tank.

<3

Another solution:

Reduce the riddiculous ilvl requirements for tanks and healers in party finder.
I have alt war with twintania weapon, myth head, gloves, and pants, ct body, belt and boots, 4 crafted accessorys and ultima ring and still cant join pf because it counts me as 81.

What do you expect? They based the battle system around final fantasy 13 mechanics.
Need insight?
Here in FFXIV ARR your tank dies you wipe a small percentage you will get raised, same with healer if the healer dies you wipe.
FF13, if lightning dies game over no matter if you have a full party still alive its over, similarity to FFXIV and FF13 game.
Difference is you have a chance to do the dungeon over and no game over popup cause if we had game over it would be so much like 13 lol

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Originally Posted by IzumiRaito

Another solution:

Reduce the riddiculous ilvl requirements for tanks and healers in party finder.
I have alt war with twintania weapon, myth head, gloves, and pants, ct body, belt and boots, 4 crafted accessorys and ultima ring and still cant join pf because it counts me as 81.

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That's the problem with ilvl calculation.

Plus the way Tanks get treated I am not surprised that people don't wanna tank anymore, you have mages doing fluid when its not needed, then they blame tank for it, then you got people blaming tank for monsters who reset hate.
Then when a crazy mage begins casting Holy and dies they blame tank for not using flash even though tanks flash 2-4 times or more then you got them blaming them in CT I see it everyday when im building myth.
You see people ragging them down for gear if you guys have better gear but forget you once were under geared yourselves thus causing a lot of people not wanting to deal with peoples drama and just playing a DPS class.

One last thing, Content is moving super slow, if they don't stop re-hashing dungeons and pumping out more content quicker, the problem will be worse, I hate to say it but elder scrolls online is coming soon, from what I have been reading and people saying they love the game.

That gives SE a bit of trouble due to elder scrolls online is also a P2P game and people aren't gonna pay for both which will cause a lot of people to leave causing tank and healer positions to be low.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

I hate to say it but elder scrolls online is coming soon, from what I have been reading and people saying they love the game.

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True but, At the moment ESO has no REAL endgame, only 4man Dungeons. There seems a lot to do and the world is very large and pvp seems to be favored, but you will have players that will burn through it all and with no actual 'raids' have really nothing to do.

Of course, I've noticed from a dev video, that the 4 man party didn't really have a Trinity to it, so if that is the case, then it might flourish simply because you could 3-DPS 1-Offheal/DPS the content without worrying about it.

I've also heard both bad and good reviews from players, but in the end, like you said, people will have to pick a P2P game and people will probably know in the coming month or two when Open Beta comes out (Also, there are a lot of new games coming out ... IE: EQ Next, which favors the system of 1toon-allclasses, like FF14).

the trouble of the tank is the gameplay, is not that hard, but the fun factor is terribly bad... you aren't really active, you are reacting to the monster, when the dps will have a cycle (more less complex depending of the class) they will have a lot of skill out gcd to use for feel more active and that not the case of the tank. all the out gcd skill are either a stun or survival skill. with a good healer or if you play well, you will need this in some situation but it's still rare.

the tank and healer don't need more class, but more fun!

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Originally Posted by Moirear

Whoever thinks DPS have less burden of responsibility than tanks or healers is gravely mistaken. I see examples using Titan's heart phase, but I can think of plenty of others.
Have you ever healed or tanked on Brayflox's Longstop with both DPS players not even having their jobs unlocked? I have for either role, and it's awful. Haukke Manor story mode with DPS who don't understand the most basic spells/abilities and how to use them in rotation for maximum dps? Archers who can't wait 2 seconds to attack mobs till the tank pulls them in Sastasha?

DPS have incredible responsibility, not just on straight-up dps checks.

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All of your examples are DPS checks, though. So DPS's only real responsibility is DPS checks, ergo knowing their rotation.

Wow, so difficult.

What they should do is let the Duty Roulette bonus for picking at tank class increase based on queue times. This way, people who play a tank will actually be compensated appropriately.

Specifically, instead of the bonus being stuck at 750 gil, it will balloon up until it's worth it enough for tanks to take it.

@Iecerint: they can put whatever they want, the trouble to be fun at play is not there... because of the gameplay of the class and the reaction of most people with who to teams up.

you have the choice, the dps that burst dps at the start of the fight, that don't follow the start or the sign... or decide to pull at your place...
the healer that prefer dps than heal you or that don't dispel you or let you die and say is your fault.

Tank is frustrating, the people don't make it better and the class don't help!

you want to have more tank? make it worth the frustration to play with the dps and the healer that don't care for the jobs of the tank. make the class fun to play!

One of the biggest challenges I see for the entire duty roulette system is a lot of tanks and healers just plain dislike certain dungeons. If they see Pharos.. they drop group. If they see Brayflox.. they drop group. Roulette is cool and all, but it would be nice if you could tailor the roulette to exclude 1-2 you don't want to do. That way you could still queue to a random dungeon, just not the one you hate =p

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you want to have more tank? make it worth the frustration to play with the dps and the healer that don't care for the jobs of the tank. make the class fun to play!

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Surely the same goes for any class? You could queue forever as a DPS and wind up with a tank who can't hold aggro, or a healer who keeps going afk during critical pulls. The onus is on the group as a whole, not on any one individual in the team. Being a tank doesn't suddenly make the dungeon any more difficult, nor does it guarantee you'll get good group.

I personally don't feel that tank is all that frustrating a job. Sure, I've lost aggro a few times to DPS burning down the mobs in the wrong order, or healers who throw up a Regen just as I pull a group of mobs. But then equally I've pulled aggro on a healer and DPS from tanks who either didn't keep up their rotation or relied entirely on Flash alone to keep groups.

The number of tanks is definitely on the rise though, so your fears may be ungrounded by the time 2.2 arrives.

Tanking in this game just isn't for everyone. I have a tank and dps, and while PLD is my favorite job to play there are days where I just don't feel like dealing with bs/stress. Sometimes I am just not in the mood to join into a group where the smallest thing starts flaming. Half the time is isn't even anything wrong, people are just toxic to tanks. Even in lowbie dungeons I will get some new tank and people instead of helping him with something they rage. Rage on a lvl 20 tank who just started the game in a dungeon that could be done with 2 people, nice. Playing DPS is just much more stress-free, which is for the most part why people play video games in the first place.

I think increasing rewards would help, I would roll tank more.

All increasing rewards will really do is introduce more people who don't really want to play a tank (or healer as the case may be), they just want to get the rewards. They will run the dungeon/mission once to get their reward for the day/week/etc and happily go back to their other class. It doesn't really alleviate the problem: getting more people to want to play tanks as a main class. Even worse, they may do this all without learning or even caring to learn how to play the class properly causing more friction between the player base.

After playing all three types of classes (Heal/DPS/Tank), I have to say... I don't understand people claiming the huge differences in gameplay.

Tank: Minor DPS/Placing Fight+Keeping it there/Marking Order for Trash+Boss fights with more than one enemy.
Heals:Minor DPS/Major Healing/Keep Aggro down to help tank/Avoid laggy AOE when tank/dps is unable to stun/silence.
DPS: Major DPS/Minor Healing/Keep Aggro down to help tank/Avoid laggy AOE when tank/heal is unable to stun/silence.

My personal favorites are Healer/Tank, but maybe I like the abuse. I love the game, I just feel maybe the issue is that the gameplay of any MMO boils down to who is doing their skillset combos correctly and moving appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

All increasing rewards will really do is introduce more people who don't really want to play a tank (or healer as the case may be), they just want to get the rewards. They will run the dungeon/mission once to get their reward for the day/week/etc and happily go back to their other class. It doesn't really alleviate the problem: getting more people to want to play tanks as a main class. Even worse, they may do this all without learning or even caring to learn how to play the class properly causing more friction between the player base.

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I don't want to deal with fighting Titan over and over again with pf groups, but I'll do it for the reward. Most endgame content is about getting certain rewards. If I can afford a house faster because I am rolling tank, yeah I am going to enjoy it more. A lot of the time I don't enjoy CT, but I sure enjoy it when I get my loot. The better the reward the more desired the content will be. I think the reason most people do more difficult fights is for the rewards/loot, primals would not be fun if they offered nothing in return. By raising rewards you can eventually find a balence point.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

One last thing, Content is moving super slow, if they don't stop re-hashing dungeons and pumping out more content quicker, the problem will be worse, I hate to say it but elder scrolls online is coming soon, from what I have been reading and people saying they love the game.

That gives SE a bit of trouble due to elder scrolls online is also a P2P game and people aren't gonna pay for both which will cause a lot of people to leave causing tank and healer positions to be low.

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Elder scrolls online is that not Bethesdas first try at an mmo? and it's not as if ZeniMax Online Studios is very big id hold back on saying this game will do well and or be very good till it's been out anyone can make an mmorpg but keeping it alive and well that's a other story and with all the bugs other Bethesda games have falling into random graphic holes game saveing in very bad spots i don't have that much hope for ESO just yet

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I don't want to deal with fighting Titan over and over again with pf groups, but I'll do it for the reward. Most endgame content is about getting certain rewards. If I can afford a house faster because I am rolling tank, yeah I am going to enjoy it more. A lot of the time I don't enjoy CT, but I sure enjoy it when I get my loot. The better the reward the more desired the content will be. I think the reason most people do more difficult fights is for the rewards/loot, primals would not be fun if they offered nothing in return. By raising rewards you can eventually find a balence point.

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The question is not whether you're willing to PF for those rewards, but if you're willing to Duty Finder for them? That's where most of the rewarding is taking place after all (See daily roulette). If tanks were rewarded for being in a static/prebuilt group that'd be a little unfair to the other members, I would think.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Elder scrolls online is that not Bethesdas first try at an mmo?

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They're not Bethesda Game Studios (who make mainline series). ZeniMax Online Studios, a completely new studio formed by ZeniMax (umbrella for Bethesda and a few other studios), is making the game. It's headed up by ex-DAoC devs, IIRC.

It can be tough to find bards for T1 while they're everywhere for other content. Nobody wants to screw up the feeds and get yelled at.

Tanks and healers get all the responsibility blame if something goes wrong. Who wants to deal with that?

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Tanks and healers get all the responsibility if something goes wrong. Who wants to deal with that?

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+1
Hopefully SE is smart enough to implant certain skills or buff to ease off the burden on the tank and healers.
Adding a special mount really won't do much, once people got the mount, they'll stay away like usual.

Gimme a tanky second job on mnk and I'll do it.

Otherwise you'll have to wait while I very slowly level my tanks (expected 50 in 2015) :x

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Elder scrolls online is that not Bethesdas first try at an mmo? and it's not as if ZeniMax Online Studios is very big id hold back on saying this game will do well and or be very good till it's been out anyone can make an mmorpg but keeping it alive and well that's a other story and with all the bugs other Bethesda games have falling into random graphic holes game saveing in very bad spots i don't have that much hope for ESO just yet

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My hope is that ESO will take many of the extremely rude players out of the FFXIV equation. Sadly I played the last 4 beta weekends and we won't get that luckly. There are some aspects that are decent, (eg seemless zones, familiar markings from Elder scrolls games, open world exploration and monsters, plus an actually open world with teeth).

However it plays like a single player game online and the battle system is slow and makes it rather boring quick, I would get bored before the end of the Beta weekend.

While I had hoped for a little competition to light the fire under SE to stop over simplifying aspects of the game, sadly we won't get that lucky.

On the topic of Tanking I would have to say until people in lower level dungeons and roulettes actually give new tanks a chance to learn their job, things won't change. I have 2 level 50 decently geared tanks (pld/war) from 1.0. I needed to learn the changes and how to do the battle system in a real environment. I make a few mistakes (although was doing ok) and people throw a fit with no suggestion. "Why are you did you even try to tank if you can't hold every mob (while the dd attacks whatever)". I recently tried again on tanking only to get vote kicked when people found out I was not an expert. I give up on tanking anything but stuff with friends.

I do keep the reduce the healer shortage on the other hand, as I do have a WHM in almost all ILvL90 (-1 ring). If what I deal with as a tank and even sometimes a healer is anything to go by, the shortage will never end no matter what kind of gimmes or other things are done. I already have the tanks leveled and geared, I just refuse to use it.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

The question is not whether you're willing to PF for those rewards, but if you're willing to Duty Finder for them? That's where most of the rewarding is taking place after all (See daily roulette). If tanks were rewarded for being in a static/prebuilt group that'd be a little unfair to the other members, I would think.

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I agree, any rewards should be df only. I just said pf in titan example because I will not df that one. Rewards should only be for helping DF waits.

The fundamental fail here was SE deciding to have the standard party size at 4 .. the 'Light' party size is the overwhelming majority of group content so it's the de facto 'normal' IMO .. and also SE's deciding that 'raid' (meaning at least 2x normal group size) content would need two tanks and two healers all the time.

It was stupid to have 1:1:2 ratio of tank:healer:DPS when the real ratio is a whole lot larger .. normal groups should have been 6 as in FFXI, not BECAUSE FFXI had a party size of 6 but because it's a better reflection of reality: note also 6-man content only needs 1 tank and 1 healer.

I had two ct groups fill up on tanks and healers before dps yesterday. I was dumbfounded.

we had to wait for dps!