patch 2.2 turn 1-5 easier.....

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Originally Posted by Worm

It's not about what you can do but about what other people can't do.

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It's a question why SE chooses to ease content so early when it could still add to the game. Anyone who knows anything about an MMO knows there will always be a difference. If you you "can't do" certain content, you should try and find out how to do it. Find some friends, join an FC <---- those are MMO skills too: they are called social skills.

When I checked your character, there are no signs of you doing Coil, hence your comment. My point was: are the nerfs necessary when Coil is being nerfed already due to people being close to full i90 gear (myth gear). It could still be impossible because MMO's have lots of people who can't communicate or aren't the perseverance type, so I do understand SE's point of view <---. I'm all for the two modes: normal and hard or w/e it has to be called.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Actually plenty of handicapped people do play these games, it's pretty offense to lump a physical disability in with being a small child or a drug addict. Many of them do damn well because frankly these games aren't hard, no matter how much your ego needs to insist they are. Becoming so bitter about a content nerf is far more of a handicap than any of the people you view with such derision have. Seriously, just what is wrong with you?

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Read before you go flying off the handle Worm. Grailer didn't "lump" in anything in a negative light. If anything their post was in favor of the nerf that it would be helping this people. As you talk about ego's you allow yours to blind you.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Read before you go flying off the handle Worm. Grailer didn't "lump" in anything in a negative light. If anything their post was in favor of the nerf that it would be helping this people. As you talk about ego's you allow yours to blind you.

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You're joking, right? There is absolutely nothing positive about that post at all. It's bitter, negative, and completely delivered through clenched teeth.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

It's a question why SE chooses to ease content so early when it could still add to the game. Anyone who knows anything about an MMO knows there will always be a difference. If you you "can't do" certain content, you should try and find out how to do it. Find some friends, join an FC <---- those are MMO skills too: they are called social skills.

When I checked your character, there are no signs of you doing Coil, hence your comment. My point was: are the nerfs necessary when Coil is being nerfed already due to people being close to full i90 gear (myth gear). It could still be impossible because MMO's have lots of people who can't communicate or aren't the perseverance type, so I do understand SE's point of view <---. I'm all for the two modes: normal and hard or w/e it has to be called.

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Well I did start this game 3 months after you Game Winner, so yeah I only did Turn 1 and Turn 2 last night after finding a guild I meshed with. I have no idea why you'd try to progression shame someone you have a 3 month lead on but whatever.

Look I don't agree completely with the nerf, but I disagree with people who are mad about the nerf because they feel their work is being invalidated. If the only thing that gives raiding value to you is doing something other people can't do and getting trinkets, then yeah you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. Splitting it into two modes is just pointless, they did that in World of Warcraft and it has all the same negative impacts of nerfing content, you've got less people who need to go through guilds to raid.

There definitely is a negative impact to nerfing content and not leaving a tiered system in place, but everyone knew this was coming. To see all this screaming about how 'my shinies lost their luster' is just disheartening. I'm willing to wait until we see the nerf, for all we know it could be a very small nerf since the content doesn't seem wildly overtuned or anything like that. Maybe the soft nerf of ilvl 100 gear would have been enough on it's own maybe it wouldn't, but I'm sure not going to scream bloody murder over a nerf that not only was obvious but is basically the industry standard.

You have a valid point and the way you point things out indeed makes me think it's for the better. However, I am not "mad" and certainly not playing a game to have all the best gear asap and watch other people struggle. It's the timing of the nerf and the nerf itself. As I said in a previous reply, this will not help people be better players, 'cause that's what I want. Your case is different, but the majority just don't have social/communication skills, know their job or care to actually learn the fight. Yet they complain about the difficulty.

If people fail to see how Coil 1-4 (5 could be adjusted maybe) is really easy with i80+ gear, it's not worth the discussion.

I'll be happy if they do that echo buff they mentioned at some point. Die too many times and you get the buff but even after that you can turn it off. I think that would be perfect. Don't really like the idea of lowering the enemies or mechanics etc. I can live with it but it's not preferable.

No lockout
Higher gear available
+Undisclosed battle nerfs

Seems a bit overkill, thats like 3 nerfs all at once

the mind boggles as to how they are going to change turn1+2 though, people already ignore most of caduceus' stacks and bypass ADS only tough skill, how can they be nerfed..
4 is a dps race that a lot of people struggled with for a while but now pugs clear it every day with their new gear

The natural soft nerfs of player+gear progression are working, further intervention is just babysitting

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Originally Posted by Worm

You're joking, right? There is absolutely nothing positive about that post at all. It's bitter, negative, and completely delivered through clenched teeth.

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No, I'm not. You just jumped straight to negative conclusions when the term "handicapped" was mentioned. Now please stop QQing without justifiable foundation.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

the mind boggles as to how they are going to change turn1+2 though, people already ignore most of caduceus' stacks and bypass ADS only tough skill, how can they be nerfed..
4 is a dps race that a lot of people struggled with for a while but now pugs clear it every day with their new gear

The natural soft nerfs of player+gear progression are working, further intervention is just babysitting

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That is the thing though. It's a happy medium between hardcore and casual players. Content casual players have been struggling with gets nerfed, while hardcore gamers have the chance to view and dissect T6-9 w/ no nerf, no mechanic jostling, etc. The hardcore gamers also get rewarded with better gear, while the casual player is able to find gear they previously were unable to obtain for various reasons.

My only thought with the potential nerf is I just hope they don't adjust any mechanics. My hope is that the only thing they do is the Echo Buff. That way we can try it as it's intended, and if we keep beating our heads against it and decide we just want to go through it that's there as well.

But when I hear SE saying they're going to adjust something for difficulty, I'm now going to think of the Good King fight, and honestly that's not a bad change. All they did was adjust health and damage a little bit. The mechanics are all there, and that's the important thing.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Read before you go flying off the handle Worm. _______ didn't "lump" in anything in a negative light.

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I suppose the point is moot because the post in question has been moderator-deleted. I don't disagree with Worm's interpretation, but obviously I can't quote the text to show why.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Your case is different, but the majority just don't have social/communication skills, know their job or care to actually learn the fight. Yet they complain about the difficulty.

If people fail to see how Coil 1-4 (5 could be adjusted maybe) is really easy with i80+ gear, it's not worth the discussion.

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I'm glad we found common ground. I agree that this might be overkill however I think there are downsides to both extremes of overnerfing and tiered progression where new players need to be run through turns 1-5 before they can be worthwhile on turns 6-9. Though I don't know how many people actually were complaining about Coil's difficulty, maybe they just have little confidence in duty finder? I'm not sure.

But basically yes I agree that raid content should be a way to incentive the guild system, however that's not ultimately being undermined. People still are going to need guilds to see turns 6 through 9. This is actually why I dislike any mention of a two difficulty system because they can just start all content with an easy mode(like WoW did) and it just really kills the applicant pool of raiders. Though the nerfs to AK WP and Moogle weren't huge, maybe they won't be huge for coil either.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

I'll be happy if they do that echo buff they mentioned at some point. Die too many times and you get the buff but even after that you can turn it off. I think that would be perfect. Don't really like the idea of lowering the enemies or mechanics etc. I can live with it but it's not preferable.

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Honestly this would be a really nice way to handle it, since it sort of encourages better play. Throw in some achievement for doing the raid with 0 stacks of Echo and everyone is basically happy.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

No, I'm not. You just jumped straight to negative conclusions when the term "handicapped" was mentioned.

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This is actually pretty funny. You honestly read that post and thought they were happy about nerfs because it would finally allow the 5 year olds, drug addicts, and handicapped players to beat content? You see no issue likening a full grown adult with a physical disability to a small child or serious substance abuse problem? You're so incredibly off the deep end here. I urge you to seek out family and friends and quote that post to them so you can see plainly just how amazingly and absolutely wrong you are.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Is it just me, or do many other people feel like SE rewards the casual gamer every single time. Now they will make turn 1-5 easier so people can start at turn 6 (available through DF as well!).

I do not mind the DF part since doing Coil in i80 + gear is rather easy except for maybe turn 5 if you have to pug it.

Why would they make it easier, does anyone have a clue other than "casual gamer" argument? It's very disappointing when a game, which already is quite easy, becomes easier......

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weird though why a non casual peep like u OP complained when ur habitat will be in t6-9 by the time t1-5 will be CT Mk2?

Clearly you people missed out on my solution.

Make a Story Mode version of 1-5 and a Hard Mode version. The Hard mode keeps the original difficulty settings and drops Allagan gear. The Story mode is easier so you can get to Turn 6-9.

SIMPLE!

Why is that hard to understand that is a great idea!?

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

Clearly you people missed out on my solution.

Make a Story Mode version of 1-5 and a Hard Mode version. The Hard mode keeps the original difficulty settings and drops Allagan gear. The Story mode is easier so you can get to Turn 6-9.

SIMPLE!

Why is that hard to understand that is a great idea!?

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Because it would take less time to just have the echo buff, and it's optional and only occurs when you die too many times.

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Originally Posted by Aureliami

Aside from the many misguided views which other have pointed out there's one big contradiction in your whole complaint.

If you love bashing your head against 1-4 so much, why aren't you looking forward to bashing your head against 6-9? It will be just as hard. And if your current rate of progress is any indication then you can be assured that 6-9 will keep you busy and happy bashing your head against bosses for a very long time.

You should be loving this patch.

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You fail to understand how many of us want the accomplishment and recognition of beating T1-5 BEFORE they make it easy for all the whiny people out there that refuse to just increase their gaming skill and want to be carried through everything. I want to be able to say I was good enough to beat T5 without the nerf.

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

Clearly you people missed out on my solution.

Make a Story Mode version of 1-5 and a Hard Mode version. The Hard mode keeps the original difficulty settings and drops Allagan gear. The Story mode is easier so you can get to Turn 6-9.

SIMPLE!

Why is that hard to understand that is a great idea!?

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That's basically what they do in WoW right now. I'd mainly be afraid of them doing it with active content because it has a lot of potential to kill applicant pools for raiders. In the end doing two modes wouldn't be hugely different and I guess people wouldn't be able to get their Allagan vanity gear quite as easily. Though it seems like a lot of work to maintain the integrity of vanity gear, which will be easier to obtain once someone marches in there wearing ilvl 100. Now if this hardmode ilvl synced people (assuming that works out properly) actually it's sort of perfect. Though this raises a odd question of whether Turn 2 should be fixed or not for Duty Finder, to have the same raiding experience everyone else has had, the enrage strat should remain.

You'd still have a big ilvl gap and the DF BC1-5 would barely be run since it will be dropping presumably nothing and the HM version would only be run for vanity. I guess you could rework that DF BC to drop the Myth gear then it might be enough incentive. Though this is all under the assumption that the nerfs are going to be very overt, and I don't know if locking people out of turns 6-9 by requiring them to do 1-5 is such a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

You fail to understand how many of us want the accomplishment and recognition of beating T1-5 BEFORE they make it easy for all the whiny people out there that refuse to just increase their gaming skill and want to be carried through everything. I want to be able to say I was good enough to beat T5 without the nerf.

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Eh look, it's the first tier of content in a game and it's traditionally easy. If you want recognition your FC should farm out 8 of those black unicorns before the coming ilvl upgrade makes those fights easier or be the first people to down Turn 9 in the world. It's just you know, simply clearing content doesn't come with the recognition it used to.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

weird though why a non casual peep like u OP complained when ur habitat will be in t6-9 by the time t1-5 will be CT Mk2?

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Because nerfing 1-5 will not improve overall server skill. I find it a double nerf since i90 gear makes turn 1-5 a lot easier already. Don't get me wrong, I do see why this is for the better. Worm has stated some nice arguments I agree with for the most part. I guess you just read my initial post and replied to that one...

In my case, I would like to have my alts run through the same coil my mains did rather than a nerfed turn 1-5 which now will be a faceroll. It's all a matter of taste I guess. I rather have a challenged fight than the taste of victory.

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Originally Posted by Worm

This is actually pretty funny. You honestly read that post and thought they were happy about nerfs because it would finally allow the 5 year olds, drug addicts, and handicapped players to beat content? You see no issue likening a full grown adult with a physical disability to a small child or serious substance abuse problem? You're so incredibly off the deep end here. I urge you to seek out family and friends and quote that post to them so you can see plainly just how amazingly and absolutely wrong you are.

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Lmao kid, go re-read the post without your bias justifications. You read too deep in to the post. But that's ok, continue to shed your tears over it, I'm enjoying watching you make a ridiculous fool of yourself. *Grabs Popcorn*

Casual gamers make them more money...while the "hardcore" players are crying like babies they still pay for the subscription... Another useless post yet once again.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Lmao kid, go re-read the post without your bias justifications. You read too deep in to the post. But that's ok, continue to shed your tears over it, I'm enjoying watching you make a ridiculous fool of yourself. *Grabs Popcorn*

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I'd like to reread it but a moderator deleted it because it was offensive and possibly slapped the poster with a temporary ban. I wouldn't be surprised if the poster himself requested that out of embarrassment after making such an offensive post. You misunderstood the post and now you're stamping your feet down and holding a hardline against nothing, keep hiding your lack of basic understanding behind some 'QQ moar' spouting generic MMO personality. If nothing else you've fully convinced me you don't have anything worth saying, so in a way you've won an argument.

Yeah see the thing is... It is not easy.

Most people have not completed turn 5. People who have completed turn 5 still fail on it. Extreme primals give everyone problems (pro or not) because of how unforgiving they are. It's not easy. You got to the content first, horay for you. Now the rest of eorzea wants experience more content instead of giving up in frustration.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Because nerfing 1-5 will not improve overall server skill. I find it a double nerf since i90 gear makes turn 1-5 a lot easier already. Don't get me wrong, I do see why this is for the better. Worm has stated some nice arguments I agree with for the most part. I guess you just read my initial post and replied to that one...

In my case, I would like to have my alts run through the same coil my mains did rather than a nerfed turn 1-5 which now will be a faceroll. It's all a matter of taste I guess. I rather have a challenged fight than the taste of victory.

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My point exactly.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

Yeah see the thing is... It is not easy.

Most people have not completed turn 5. People who have completed turn 5 still fail on it. Extreme primals give everyone problems (pro or not) because of how unforgiving they are. It's not easy. You got to the content first, horay for you. Now the rest of eorzea wants experience more content instead of giving up in frustration.

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Maybe they should quit then.

Razzelmire I think you need to chill out a little about this.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is how literally all MMOs work.

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Horizontal gear progression? Hello?

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Horizontal gear progression? Hello?

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Look, you'll get your throwback MMO one day and I hope with horror you look out on to the forums to see people clamoring for permadeath and 72 hour raid encounters.

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

Maybe they should quit then.

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And taking their money with them to boot. Good business practice.

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

Maybe they should quit then.

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"I WANT ONLY ME AND MY 8 elitist friends to be able to play this game!!!"

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Originally Posted by Worm

Look, you'll get your throwback MMO one day and I hope with horror you look out on to the forums to see people clamoring for permadeath and 72 hour raid encounters.

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I never permadied or took part in a 72 hours raid in FFXI, but whatever.

I understand your concerns but this is standard operating procedure for MMO raiding. Every MMO ever has done this. It's in the developer's best interest so the content can eventually be experienced by all.

EDIT: Turn 6 is going to be in the Duty Finder? Can anyone confirm this?

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

There is no challenge for t1-t5 currently so this isn't a big deal.

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Don't be like that. As someone who has had Turn 5 down for a while myself, I can still say with full confidence that Twintania is very challenging.

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Originally Posted by Razzelmire

I'm not ok with them making T1-5 easier and it's now part of the reason I am quitting this game. I've been working very hard to get FC members in my FC to work up to being Coil ready so we can down T1 to T5 in the mode it's in pre-patch. We managed to get a 6-man group and have to PUG 2 more for now.....

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I understand your frustration but this is simply how MMOs work. Turns 1-5 have been in the game since launch day November 27(24 for ER) and 2.2 isn't hitting until March which means you've had 4+ months to work on four boss fights. I wish you the best and hope you get T5 down before 2.2.

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Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

The real question is, how can something so easy become easier?...

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Turn 5 is a very challenging fight so I certainly wouldn't refer to it as "easy". However, that said, I can think of lots of ways the content could be nerfed.:

Turn 1: Stacks build slower and give less of an AP boost to Caduceus. Fight stays the same otherwise.
Turn 2: High Voltage no longer applies Paralysis. Stacks build slower on ADS and give less of an AP boost. Fight stays the same otherwise.
Turn 4: Dreadnaught health reduced and Dreadnaughts no longer eat spiders. Spiders still drop but simply must be killed. Overall damage of mobs slightly reduced. Fight stays the same otherwise.
Turn 5: Damage on Death Sentence reduced. Conflagaration duration increased by 5s across the board. Health on all snakes reduced by 20%. Dreadknights move a bit slower. Dive Bombs no longer knock back. Fight stays the same otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

I never permadied or took part in a 72 hours raid in FFXI, but whatever.

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*Woosh*

You see here Game Winner, the joke is that you'll have to deal with the hardcore of hardcore who pollute the forum of your finally hardcore AAA MMO with random demands for even harder corer stuff!

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Originally Posted by Synovius

Turns 1-5 have been in the game since launch day November 27(24 for ER) and 2.2 isn't hitting until March which means you've had 4+ months to work on four boss fights.

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Launch was August 27. That's 7 months. :)

Also, from what SE has said, the only easing may be that you can wear higher iLevel gear (that maybe is only obtainable from turns 6+ or other highest-level new content anyway...), and a buff you might only get after a failed attempt, but that you can disable to experience the original difficulty.

you'll just have to show off your new gear instead of your old gear :( I know, it's rough.

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

Launch was August 27. That's 7 months. :)

Also, from what SE has said, the only easing may be that you can wear higher iLevel gear (that maybe is only obtainable from turns 6+ or other highest-level new content anyway...), and a buff you might only get after a failed attempt, but that you can disable to experience the original difficulty.

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Please quote an official source on this.

One other thing. For those saying we had 6+months no we did not. First, myself and many more, do not put 40+ hours a week into this game. I have a job and family. Next, you gotta spend time leveling to 50 (and doing it again with a 2nd class for Coil subs) and grind them to get geared after. You also need to find 7 other members that can consistently play in your time slot (mine is always late evenings CST) and work like clockwork together. If you are stuck using all PUGs it takes twice as long to get anything done and you are relying on pure luck at that point.

Taking in all those factors, 6 months is not enough time. What ruined Coil?

Lockouts. If this was never there Coil would not have caused toxicity in the community and breaking FCs apart as it has now.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

"I WANT ONLY ME AND MY 8 elitist friends to be able to play this game!!!"

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So increasing your game skills in a game is considered elitist? Wow. I did not know you endorsed this MMO to be made so 4 year olds can win with ease.

(Sorry this 1000 character limit is annoying)

I am not even putting into consideration the time one also puts into crafts, field, Beastmen quests, maxing myth tomes, and primal battles. If I ignored all of these maybe I can finally finish Coil as it is but why such a huge sacrifice?