Raid Curiousities - Important information we don't yet have

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

you must have me mistaken for someone who actualy cares about gear
why the hell would a 50 prance around in 30 gear anyway? that is your first mistake, they should be using 50 gear, and there is nothing "leet" about wearing underleveled dungeon gear

so these 50s steamrolling it will be getting outdated gear, oh woop de doo, that breaks the game so bad and ruins it for others

the game will be overrun with people in underleveled gear now!

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problem is if you want to make content for midlevel players, you need to make it for midlevel players.
I see you are basically just on the side that wants to steamroll things, its not relevant if it makes the content itself lame. If thats how you feel, its how you feel, but dont claim its for the midlevel peoples benefit to have steamroll option available.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

lol you still don't get it, the level 50 will not prance in level 30 gears, who cares about that. The level 30 will tho, but they won't have any merits for it because they will all have gone through their low level content eating a doughnut standing back while their level 50 friends help them get the loot. Yay what a fun game this is!

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if the 30 has friends willing to do it good for him
whos to say the gear wont be sellable/buyable too, so guess what, people who dont even step foot in the dungeon may have it too!

i get it, i really do, you are mad cuz others can do something easier then you can. you want them to be forced to play the game the way you want it to be played, where everything is done at the rank the content is meant for
unfortunately, thats not how it works

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Originally Posted by Physic

problem is if you want to make content for midlevel players, you need to make it for midlevel players.
I see you are basically just on the side that wants to steamroll things, its not relevant if it makes the content itself lame. If thats how you feel, its how you feel, but dont claim its for the midlevel peoples benefit to have steamroll option available.

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it is midlevel content
you know why, its for players rank 25+
see how it starts at 25, thats mid range, thats what determines its level of content

i wont be doing the dungeon cept to maybe get any achievments that are inside it(im obviosly full of 50s and will be doing the 8 man dungeon)

but that doesnt mean you should force others to lower themselves to do the lower dungeon

while you may think its not fair or fun to do it that way, others may think it is
and guess what, they arent going to force you to do it their way, so again, WHY SHOULD YOU FORCE THEM TO DO IT YOUR WAY

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

if the 30 has friends willing to do it good for him
whos to say the gear wont be sellable/buyable too, so guess what, people who dont even step foot in the dungeon may have it too!

i get it, i really do, you are mad cuz others can do something easier then you can. you want them to be forced to play the game the way you want it to be played, where everything is done at the rank the content is meant for
unfortunately, thats not how it works

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Ok, your 1st statement is even worse and I hope for the game's sake that the drops are not tradable.

Your second statement just shows how much immature you are. I did not say I am mad because I wouldn't be able to go the easy way, believe me I could. I am mad that SE wants to create content for lower level and yet not give them the challenge and accomplishment feeling that they deserve as well. Allowing people to faceroll just washes away all those good feelings you get when beating content, and saying to give more options to players in this regards just proves that you are probably part of a new generation of gamer or that you streamlined into it.

I am however just gonna stop arguing with you about this in this thread because it was not the point of the OP, I just stated my point, you stated yours, let's move on.

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i wont be doing the dungeon cept to maybe get any achievments that are inside it

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lol exactly what I thought of you... WHAT an achievement it be to complete that dungeon on your level 50 job right? congrats on it, you will have worked so hard for it you can go buy yourself some cookies now.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Ok, your 1st statement is even worse and I hope for the game's sake that the drops are not tradable.

Your second statement just shows how much immature you are. I did not say I am mad because I wouldn't be able to go the easy way, believe me I could. I am mad that SE wants to create content for lower level and yet not give them the challenge and accomplishment feeling that they deserve as well. Allowing people to faceroll just washes away all those good feelings you get when beating content, and saying to give more options to players in this regards just proves that you are probably part of a new generation of gamer or that you streamlined into it.

I am however just gonna stop arguing with you about this in this thread because it was not the point of the OP, I just stated my point, you stated yours, let's move on.

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just an fyi, the immature ones are the ones who keep calling people names, or going out of their way to put people down(guess whos been doing this and who hasnt?)
im just stating how i feel about things

i dont want to be forced to play how others want me to play, i will play how the game lets me play
i also dont feel others should be forced to play the way others want them to play

this goes back to the entire failing leves deal too, people who think "their way" is the only way, and therefore others should be forced to play that way too.

this is exactly whats going on here now

a bunch of you feel that your way is that 50s shouldnt be allowed to go into a 30 dungeon on their 50, you feel that its unfair
unfortunately, if the cap isnt already imposed, it wont be, and guess what? too bad!

they dont need to change it for you, and they shouldnt have to change it for you.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

it is midlevel content
you know why, its for players rank 25+
see how it starts at 25, thats mid range, thats what determines its level of content

i wont be doing the dungeon cept to maybe get any achievments that are inside it(im obviosly full of 50s and will be doing the 8 man dungeon)

but that doesnt mean you should force others to lower themselves to do the lower dungeon

while you may think its not fair or fun to do it that way, others may think it is
and guess what, they arent going to force you to do it their way, so again, WHY SHOULD YOU FORCE THEM TO DO IT YOUR WAY

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As a developer, you have to make create obstructions to make entertaining content. you also have to enforce a set of rules in any game, or its not fun for most people. If one person is cheating, or overpowered, it diminishes the fun of others, for example steroids in proffesional sports.
rules are what makes games, im sure cheaters and exploit users are having fun, but in an MMO everyone is related, the fact that gear that would be exciting to get/see becomes common place due to people steamrolling does actually effect everyone else.
making a party with some people, and its going bad and one dude says screw this im using my 50, i refuse to fail totally changes the game, and its up to teh developers to decide if this should be a viable option.


lol you so sure that it wont be? seeing as how they said this was supposed to be difficult team content, it may in fact have some technique of adapting to the players, ormaking the players adapt to it.


but whatever, we ll see what they do, if they dont put any limiters, it means they are fine with people getting thier high levels to help them, if they do put limiters it means they do not. we shall see which is the case soon enough

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Originally Posted by Physic

As a developer, you have to make create obstructions to make entertaining content. you also have to enforce a set of rules in any game, or its not fun for most people. If one person is cheating, or overpowered, it diminishes the fun of others, for example steroids in proffesional sports.
rules are what makes games, im sure cheaters and exploit users are having fun, but in an MMO everyone is related, the fact that gear that would be exciting to get/see becomes common place due to people steamrolling does actually effect everyone else.
making a party with some people, and its going bad and one dude says screw this im using my 50, i refuse to fail totally changes the game, and its up to teh developers to decide if this should be a viable option.

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ah but heres the thing

if it isnt cheating, if it isnt an exploit, then there is NOTHING wrong with it
and what determines those things are NOT the players, it is SE

and several players seem to forget this fact and refuse to accept what SE has decided

You idiots are arguing over something that's not even out yet. I'm reposting this again. How does this not cater to both of your wants/needs?

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Originally Posted by DynamisLord

Everyone in this thread is arguing over capping/uncapping players. Obviously there are pros and cons to either way they go with implementing or not implementing a system like that.

So INSTEAD of altering the player's level based on the dungeon, why not just alter the dungeon's level based on the players?

They already change the difficulty in game of behests based on the number of players signed up. Why not expand on a system like that?

Just lock players on whatever jobs they enter with. If you wanna roll with a party of 4 50s, go for it. The dungeon's difficulty will be scaled accordingly. Everyone wins?

That would keep the difficulty level challenging no matter who decides to enter at whatever level. It would end up being like they posted:

Rank 30 dungeon will be for Light parties, Rank 50 dungeon for full parties. The MINIMUM levels will be enforced and whatever levels ABOVE the minimum will only serve to increase the difficulty of that dungeon.

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Originally Posted by DynamisLord

You idiots are arguing over something that's not even out yet. I'm reposting this again. How does this not cater to both of your wants/needs?

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I have to say that it's actually not a bad compromise. It would have to be significantly adjusted though. If you take behest as an exemple, even if it adjust itself with the number of players, it's still too easy but that's another matter entirely that will, I think, be addressed with the battle changes and jobs/classes adjustements.

So if you decide to go with 4 50's to the rank 30 dungeon to say, get gears for your level 30 job/class, then the content will be harder since it's "adjusted" to be level 50. I don't mind that. But the balancing would be a lot harder than just imposing a cap. Still a good compromise. And don't call me an idiot :P I just get passionate when I defend a point.

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Originally Posted by DynamisLord

You idiots are arguing over something that's not even out yet. I'm reposting this again. How does this not cater to both of your wants/needs?

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It may cater to both sides but I don't think this is SE's current plan. If this was the case, why make the Dungeons based on level at all if it's just going to scale to the group's levels? Then if a group of 4 50's decide to run the 25+ dungeon, then its not a 25+ dungeon anymore it's a 50+ dungeon.

Why do threads all turn into mud throwing?

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

I have to say that it's actually not a bad compromise. It would have to be significantly adjusted though. If you take behest as an exemple, even if it adjust itself with the number of players, it's still too easy but that's another matter entirely that will, I think, be addressed with the battle changes and jobs/classes adjustements.

So if you decide to go with 4 50's to the rank 30 dungeon to say, get gears for your level 30 job/class, then the content will be harder since it's "adjusted" to be level 50. I don't mind that. But the balancing would be a lot harder than just imposing a cap. Still a good compromise. And don't call me an idiot :P I just get passionate when I defend a point.

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And imposing a cap would be harder than just leaving it open ended.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

- Are these actually repeatable? Seems ridiculous, but tbh it's worth concern because currently we have 0 repeatable quests in-game, and these raids are based off of a quest

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Huh? No repeatable quests? Guildleves!?

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Originally Posted by DynamisLord

You idiots are arguing over something that's not even out yet. I'm reposting this again. How does this not cater to both of your wants/needs?

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uhhh i made that suggestion pages ago.
the discussion boiled down to do you want steam roll to be an option or not, that solution is an answer to the make content not easy path. so i dont think it would solve Vedis problem.

Vedis question proposed is
should content be steam rollable, or not
Vedis says yes, steam rolling should be an option for those who want to do it
others say steam rolling can make the game suck.

the developers will make the descion at the end of the day, and people will deal with it accordingly, the forums are here for people to express their opinions, and in this stage so teh developers have feedback and a frame of reference on what players expect/want. so the discussion does serve a purpose.

cap from ffxi ( great old day )
*if you are r40 than your rank will become 30
* you will get same sp as if you are r30 ( so even if you are r40 you will still get good sp )
* more fun
* you can't grinding it for items ( sell them again for high price + anit rmt)
*you can't ask your buddy to kill everything for you just to get the item you want
* you can't use your r50pug to get yourself weapon for your r30 mrd
*you have to join PT ( dah it's mmo )

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

It may cater to both sides but I don't think this is SE's current plan. If this was the case, why make the Dungeons based on level at all if it's just going to scale to the group's levels? Then if a group of 4 50's decide to run the 25+ dungeon, then its not a 25+ dungeon anymore it's a 50+ dungeon.

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well the advantage would be, that its available to level 25s, but enjoyable at multi levels, having minimum level reqs gives people something to aim for.

It wouldnt be that hard to balance honestly, in fact the game is pretty well balanced around level now, there are some slight differences from high level skills and having more room for traits/skills but its pretty true that a level 25 mongrel is as hard for level 25 players as a level 45 mongrel is for level 45 players.

big problem with level scaling though is you couldnt play with high levels without being a leech. whereas with a cap, you all are pretty close to the same. also since they are getting rid of physical level, this will likely be the case even more.

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Originally Posted by Kafeen

Huh? No repeatable quests? Guildleves!?

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Guildleves are in a whole different class of their own, that's why I don't put them in the same category as actual quests. The class quests, storyline quests and sidequests are more along the lines of what I'm expecting the raid quests to resemble, none of which can be repeated. Hope that clears up the confusion.

i'm curious if it's possible for pve mmo's to start making 2types of servers like pvp games do, exept i'd like to see servers seperated into a hardcore and more casual servers. that way we all happy in how we play cause at this point as u can see with this game ...trying to make both happy not seems to work. ty se hope you'll look into this lol.

This is how the rank 30 dungeons will work in my linkshell without a level cap.

2 50s and 2 others: 50 plow down everything and get 30s their gear fast. And trust me my linkshell will not be the only 1... every single ls will do this.

For that reason alone... There needs to be level cap enforced. Similar to CoP in XI.

People want the game to be challenging, at this point this is the only way to do it. People will always take the easy way out unless they are forced to do it the way it was designed.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

This is how the rank 30 dungeons will work in my linkshell without a level cap.

2 50s and 2 others: 50 plow down everything and get 30s their gear fast. And trust me my linkshell will not be the only 1... every single ls will do this.

For that reason alone... There needs to be level cap enforced. Similar to CoP in XI.

People want the game to be challenging, at this point this is the only way to do it. People will always take the easy way out unless they are forced to do it the way it was designed.

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like you said, this will be true for every linkshell around. The lower content will be pointless, they should not even try to design anything interesting, just enter the dungeon and reward the free gears why don't they?

People just seem to think that if some wants to do it like that that they can and it doesn't forces others to do the same. Well even if it doesn't forces anyone to do it, people will just do it still since it's the easy way out. I still firmly believe that FFXI's cap on missions was the best feature that kept the game fun and a challenge throughout all these years. Even a casual player wants a challenge, giving the option to people to NOT have to go through that challenge the way the dungeon/mission was designed is just scrapping all the Dev's work for lower content.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

This is how the rank 30 dungeons will work in my linkshell without a level cap.

2 50s and 2 others: 50 plow down everything and get 30s their gear fast. And trust me my linkshell will not be the only 1... every single ls will do this.

For that reason alone... There needs to be level cap enforced. Similar to CoP in XI.

People want the game to be challenging, at this point this is the only way to do it. People will always take the easy way out unless they are forced to do it the way it was designed.

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I agree that this will probably happen but it'll depend if you can gain sp in those dungeons and if it's good or not. If it's a viable way to rank up, it'll be better to have 4 rank 25-30 players do the raid, that way they'll get both gear and ranks.

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Originally Posted by Aramil

I agree that this will probably happen but it'll depend if you can gain sp in those dungeons and if it's good or not. If it's a viable way to rank up, it'll be better to have 4 rank 25-30 players do the raid, that way they'll get both gear and ranks.

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Certainly an interesting thought and also quite possible. Making it a viable alternative to the 7-8 leves available in the game for leveling would be nice. It would would offer a positive incentive to do it with the "right level" classes without capping it.

I loved CoP's caps, made every CoP mission (well, almost) challenging even for lv75 ppl

CoP ftw!

I like the idea of caps and why people might not I also understand. I put all this work into getting this high level why should I be punished? But the fact is caps enforce a genuine experience that is planned so in FFXI it existed as hey you didn't fight the shadow lord yet and you still mostly a no body. That feeling is lost when you stroll through the content. Sure that is the fault the game, development,staff and what have you in some extent that it requires you to go back to do it but statement still stands they want to give the experience. They removed it now as they saw their player base has a solid foundation in the latter so by allowing players to blow through old requirements so they can get to current content is still a strategy to make more universal content not folding to the whims of a few.


So yes having it a requirement to get pass r30 like the limit breaks would force you to do it but that is unfair because of its release. So I support a cap more then not and if they want to allow people to decimate there should be an option to uncap the instance.

While Adjusting level to highest is also a good idea that artificial filler will allow challenges for all. But I feel that if they are going to truly make battle more dynamic everywhere and require strategy such as breaking limbs or using the environment (Like with the magiteck cannon) then mobs of that quality should be on any content set for 45-50. So a simple boost of level and stats of the mobs would disappoint me and I suggest instead mobs of similar types but higher categories switched in when dungeons are adjusted.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

i get it, i really do, you are mad cuz others can do something easier then you can. you want them to be forced to play the game the way you want it to be played, where everything is done at the rank the content is meant for
unfortunately, thats not how it works

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I don't wanna burst your bubble "TheVedis" but its going to be lvl capped at 30 and 50 respectively. Its not a debate over what they should do, its already done. No one is telling you how to play the game, they are simply forcing you to encounter a challenge, and put a real sense of value and pride on gear. If there was no lvl cap they would NOT be calling it an r30 dungeon, they would just have said they were making 2 raid dungeons.

Until stated explicitly that they are capped, I would advise against making such strong assumptions, it will only lead to disappointment.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

I don't wanna burst your bubble "TheVedis" but its going to be lvl capped at 30 and 50 respectively. Its not a debate over what they should do, its already done. No one is telling you how to play the game, they are simply forcing you to encounter a challenge, and put a real sense of value and pride on gear. If there was no lvl cap they would NOT be calling it an r30 dungeon, they would just have said they were making 2 raid dungeons.

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Well I am all for the caps as you well know by now, but they said there would be a r30 and a r50 dungeon yes, but never said it would be cap at those ranks. To me, sadly, it just means that the content it based on those levels but not capped at those levels when you go in.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

I don't wanna burst your bubble "TheVedis" but its going to be lvl capped at 30 and 50 respectively. Its not a debate over what they should do, its already done. No one is telling you how to play the game, they are simply forcing you to encounter a challenge, and put a real sense of value and pride on gear. If there was no lvl cap they would NOT be calling it an r30 dungeon, they would just have said they were making 2 raid dungeons.

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Where are you possibly getting this "100%" sure information because I know that no Dev has ever said that the dungeons are going to be capped.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Where are you possibly getting this "100%" sure information because I know that no Dev has ever said that the dungeons are going to be capped.

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thats what i was thinking

the ONLY thing that may happen to scale this is a difficulty meter
but im pretty damn sure there will be no cap

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

thats what i was thinking

the ONLY thing that may happen to scale this is a difficulty meter
but im pretty damn sure there will be no cap

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Don't worry, I got yer back!

This thread was intended as a source to pool information and perhaps garner the attention of the community team so that they may address our concerns. The reality, however, seems as though it's turned into some bizarre form of Mortal Kombat. lol

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

like you said, this will be true for every linkshell around. The lower content will be pointless, they should not even try to design anything interesting, just enter the dungeon and reward the free gears why don't they?

People just seem to think that if some wants to do it like that that they can and it doesn't forces others to do the same. Well even if it doesn't forces anyone to do it, people will just do it still since it's the easy way out. I still firmly believe that FFXI's cap on missions was the best feature that kept the game fun and a challenge throughout all these years. Even a casual player wants a challenge, giving the option to people to NOT have to go through that challenge the way the dungeon/mission was designed is just scrapping all the Dev's work for lower content.

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yeah honestly i dunno why they bothered with the lvl 25/30 dungeon if not with a cap... almost everyone has a much higher battleclass leveld and since the game lvl vs lvl scale is incredibly stupid i think a con friend (if you dont have one yourself) can burn down everything with a nice placed aoe in one shot. Or the zone gets "maraudered" with aoes....

Pointless work if no caps. Its sad but i start to lose hope in SE big time, everything they touch is a desaster. And crafting will get even more pointless after these dungeons. And THIS before the game even got out of late-beta stage... Good job SE :)

... where are the battle/class changes? they are much more important... its what everything builds on... /facepalm

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Originally Posted by Archadius

This thread was intended as a source to pool information and perhaps garner the attention of the community team so that they may address our concerns. The reality, however, seems as though it's turned into some bizarre form of Mortal Kombat. lol

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Didn't know that Mortal combat was about on one side people who wants a ongoing challenge that provides satisfaction and a feel of accomplishment when beating the content and on the other side people who rather have everything handed to them with the option to faceroll through content. ;)

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Didn't know that Mortal combat was about on one side people who wants a ongoing challenge that provides satisfaction and a feel of accomplishment when beating the content and on the other side people who rather have everything handed to them with the option to faceroll through content. ;)

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That's exactly what Mortal Kombat is all about! lol

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Didn't know that Mortal combat was about on one side people who wants a ongoing challenge that provides satisfaction and a feel of accomplishment when beating the content and on the other side people who rather have everything handed to them with the option to faceroll through content. ;)

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those who want the challenge can go do the 50 dungeon :P

Level 50s DO want a challenge. That's why we are happy to see the new r50 Dungeon. However, I think some of us feel that now that we have gotten to 50, there is no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to steamroll the r30 Dungeon just for fun. We have waited long enough for content that this shouldn't be an unreasonable request.

Ok, don't flame me too much for this but how about level balancing factors for items, so if 3 rank 25's and 1 rank 50 enter a rank 30 raid the item reward is much less than if its 4 rank 25's. Make it so the higher the char lvl entered the worse the drops get so lets say with a rank 50 char in the group you only get rank 20 items but with 4 rank 25's chars you get rank 35 items or even make so the item percentage drop rate is much less with high level chars.

That might promote better groups/strategys etc.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

those who want the challenge can go do the 50 dungeon :P

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I know Vedis and I understand completely your approach but you have to also see my side of things, you seem really set on your opinion and everytime someone, not just me, post good points about level capped content, you just replay the same argument which is not very strong : "let people play the way THEY want to".

Right now, the only content will be 2 dungeons. one level 30 and one level 50. Almost everyone and their mother has at least one level 50 as it is now and while the level 50 dungeon will be (hopefully) challenging, the level 30 dungeon that was designed will be there for nothing. Yes I know that they can level up another job/class and do that dungeon on appropriate level, but there is not incentive in doing so (maybe I'm wrong we will have to see) but no one will actually do it if they can just faceroll their way on their level 50 class/job. They could have just made 2 rank 50 dungeons then.

If you don't have a level 50 job/class, then what will happen is that you go in the dungeon with level 50 friends from your LS and again, just watch them (if you aren't too busy watching tv) clear everything for you while you reap the rewards of your unskillfulness. It's like rewarding dumbness. It's just bad design.

Then we will at one point have a cap raise and be able to go higher than 50.

You know what... as I am writing this I realise that I can do a compromise. Either they cap story missions and give a nice reward at the end like CoP rings in FFXI OR if the best gears come from dungeons cap the dungeons. If the story missions end up giving nice rewards of the like of CoP rings, I will be ok with uncapped dungeons even tho it's sad to design content that will get unchallenging everytime you release new content, like WoW (which is pretty much why this game gets so boring after a while)

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Level 50s DO want a challenge. That's why we are happy to see the new r50 Dungeon. However, I think some of us feel that now that we have gotten to 50, there is no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to steamroll the r30 Dungeon just for fun. We have waited long enough for content that this shouldn't be an unreasonable request.

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How is that fun Monkey? You said yourself that you waited so long for content that you wish to just faceroll half they new content by being allowed to go in uncapped at 50. After your first run (max 60min) you'll have done half the new content and will have had no challenge in it and probably never enter there again. Seems a bit contradicting to me.. I'd rather have replay value while I wait for additional content :/

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

those who want the challenge can go do the 50 dungeon :P

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Why would you NOT want a challenge? What a stupid comment.

For someone with so many high level classes, you really do have your head buried in the sand.