The new system and the old system. Constrained.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Nono, flexibility is being able to offheal on my lancer.

flexibility is being able to nuke some on my Marauder

flexibility is being able to tank some on my pug.

This is what I mean by it.

Stat points need fixing yes. NOT the system that carries them.


Reduce the total number of stat points, give them MORE weight so that I don't need 100 points for 10 more damage. Make it 10 more points for 10 more damage.

Fix the ISSUE with the system, not the whole system itself.

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So is this now an issue with the current class system now?

they are fixing the stat system, you still dont even know how it will work, it might be based off your current highest rank so if you have a rank 50 your rank 30 might still get them all just like before, it might be per class which be even more flexability, they did say you get less points but they do more so that little bit of mnd in ur lancer will do even more wonders now.

What is your problem seriously lol keep claiming all this negative stuff when it clearly is not happening.

Well, time will tell.

Just expressing my concerns.

Guess I'm a pessimist today.

^^

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Originally Posted by viion

they are fixing the stat system, you still dont even know how it will work, it might be based off your current highest rank so if you have a rank 50 your rank 30 might still get them all just like before, it might be per class which be even more flexability, they did say you get less points but they do more so that little bit of mnd in ur lancer will do even more wonders now.

What is your problem seriously lol keep claiming all this negative stuff when it clearly is not happening.

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Exactly, I can't see what he is getting at here as they already said that stats will be tied to your class, that is why they are getting rid of physical level. So when if you want a MRD that can nuke throw some points into INT, the bonus here is that on your LNC you can also throw points into MND for you offheal Lancer without having to reassign everytime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Well, time will tell.

Just expressing my concerns.

Guess I'm a pessimist today.

^^

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Hehe who hasn't had a rage day yet, it's ok though we all do it because we care about FFXIV and want it to succeed. I am bottling my rage up to unleash it once I get the patch notes for 1.18 then all hell will break loose ^^

Gotta make the rage [SIZE="6"]BIGGER[/SIZE]!!

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

But they entire battle system is being overhauled so what applies now won't matter. They said in the battle reform blueprint that they wanted to make sure battles were challenging and you could not win with just auto attack.

Edit to add:

Can you even give me one instance in the game where you actually need to stop attacking the mob for a brief period of time and then during that time you can build you can build your stamina back up?

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killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp, anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again. If you put a monster to sleep you can wait for stamina and burst it. When you do a battle regimen you are best off using an amount of stamina proportional to how long you think people will take to put their skills up before you go.

Most people didnt learn stamina because parties are easy mode within 10 levels, if you fight low man, or did big groups before and actually needed to adapt to your enemies, stamina was a very useful tool so you didnt lose dps for not doing something in one small instance. people never learned to use it, or learned the tricks of various monsters because the new sp system makes hard fights unworth it.

Stamina was very hard on tanks, but they could have altered that.

stamina was used to balance the cost of skills making them worthwhile, a big reason on evade/dodge/parry skills were worthwhile was because they cost little stamina. Its not the only way, but it had advantages

Be sure they will use cooldowns to manage skills, they have already said they will. the questions are how much, and what other resources they will use to balance the skills. If they thought something needed half your stamina bar, they will make a system that mimics that cost in some way shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Physic

killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp, anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again.

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So now you just hit them a bunch get 3000 tp and burst out 3 weapon skills, doing the exact same thing as before but without the waiting. Wow. limitations!?!?!?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Instead of a stamina bar you'll now have a mini clock ticking down to tell you when you can or can't do something. Personally, I don't see the difference.

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There isn't much of a difference. It's a superficial change to quiet the whiny wah wah 11112111 camp.

Should this actually make battle more fun or allow more freedom? That really does remain to be seen, but auto-attack is my least favorite part of the XI battle system (though I do like it in XII as well as gambits in XII - so it's not that they can't make one I do enjoy) so I'm not hopeful that I'll enjoy one in XIV. I expect it to be the same as XI, just like people crying about getting 0 SP so they slapped the XI style of EXP gain into XIV without bothering to address how the old system could have been improved.

That kind of change is what I'm against. I like the game. I like how it is. I like everything about it. I just want the kinks ironed out. I want it to perform as expected. I did not want entirely new systems built from the ground up wasting time and resources that could have been used to make the game ACTUALLY FUN.

That's just my minority, "killing the game" opinion, but it is my opinion nonetheless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

So now you just hit them a bunch get 3000 tp and burst out 3 weapon skills, doing the exact same thing as before but without the waiting. Wow. limitations!?!?!?

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Did you even bother to read what he wrote? It's not the same.

Auto-Attack won't be function if you run out of range of a Mob WS. You lose out on TP & Damage.

Previously (currently) you refill stamina while you're doing this so it has an advantage when you turn around and move back in range.

You're a smart person most of the time, Viion. You can see there's a difference. Stop rushing this thread so aggressively. There's pros and cons to both situations and some people prefer one to the other (gasp). It's no big deal. It's not like we (the current & old system supporters) are going to get what we want anyway. We're just exchanging ideas.

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Originally Posted by Shai

Did you even bother to read what he wrote? It's not the same.

Auto-Attack won't be function if you run out of range of a Mob WS. You lose out on TP & Damage.

Previously (currently) you refill stamina while you're doing this so it has an advantage when you turn around and move back in range.

You're a smart person most of the time, Viion. You can see there's a difference. Stop rushing this thread so aggressively. There's pros and cons to both situations and some people prefer one to the other (gasp). It's no big deal. It's not like we (the current & old system supporters) are going to get what we want anyway. We're just exchanging ideas.

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So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

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in a cool down tp system, any time you are not gaining tp, or using your cool down skills when available you are lowering your dps.

Where before it was always worthwhile to dodge a bad WS, now its a question of is it worth it to lose AA damage and the tp generated from being close, and as well the fact that you may not use the Cooldown skill as soon as its available.

There are advantages that a stamina system has to fighting depth, but its just not what some people want, whatever, but its not the same system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

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Um. You're not running around like a headless chicken.
You're making a calculated effort to avoid conal or circular AOE.
It's incidentally quite easy in this game. I liked that, wanted it expanded on even.

Purposely moving about and not attacking allows stamina to recharge. It was a direct answer to the question "When would you purposely be doing nothing to allow stamina to recharge?" or something to that effect. Sleep & Bind also come to mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

in a cool down tp system, any time you are not gaining tp, or using your cool down skills when available you are lowering your dps.

Where before it was always worthwhile to dodge a bad WS, now its a question of is it worth it to lose AA damage and the tp generated from being close, and as well the fact that you may not use the Cooldown skill as soon as its available.

There are advantages that a stamina system has to fighting depth, but its just not what some people want, whatever, but its not the same system.

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Man what are you on about lol, giving me a head storm that im just going to go point to point.

Your first point is practically saying when ur not using ur skills or gaining tp ur lowering ur DPS, but the current system relies on u always hitting attack which can be slow simetimes when u gotta scroll across 30 slots, and ofc again it relies on your timing which still has a delay due to the stamina, the new system does this all automatically to the exact millisecond even if your picking your nose or jacking off your DPS aint gunna change but be better than before.

And then you go on about dodging, if you're locked on you can just press left or right and you dodge, you'd always face the target due to lock on and always be in range, also if you dont do lockon like me, then run through the mob, its always better evasive than running the direction the mob is facing... Also you wont lose TP this way.

You dont know how far AA range is, if its like XI it's pretty damn good, infact it'd be same range as you can do now on XIV with your manual attack, granted only mages would really get affected but im fine with that, i'd rather be doing other stuff when its fixed.

There is absolute no advantages to stamina at all, its just another restriction.

Because you need
- The right MP/TP
- The cooldown to be 0
- The stamina amount

Now they removing the Stamina
wow now... now you only have 2 restrictions, aint that a joy...

Sorry for the insulting sarcasm but it needs to be said.

People think this illusion of being able to do lots of skills at once, you cant, you still have to wait for a cooldown, and saying that will be higher is just arguing over make belief crap. We have a video right there infront of us, and cooldowns look fine, nothings changed, all fine and dandy.

The way I see it, is before I had 3 different skills I want to do, all cost 1000 TP but because they each use 50% stamina I couldn't chain them i'd have to do 2 then just wait it out. But the new system lets me do them because it removes the stamina restriction.

Then whilst I was deciding which skills to use and planning my strategy the system was helping me out by attacking and gaining me the TP so I can focus on the important things. It would gain TP and be a faster DPS than me because I play controller and I'd hit Light stab and then I might wanna do slow which is on pad 2 so i gotta switch then maybe Poison so I switch to Pad 3 and then back up to light stab and im hitting buttons all over place and its like navigating a flipping TV box set.

I want to play a game, not a UI. Theres no reason for me to keep spamming 1 1 1 1 over and over, its no different if it does it for me. Do you walk everywhere or drive? Do you light some matches in the garden and prop up pig on wood and cook your own bacon or use a gril from the bacon the farmer made and you bought at the market.

Everything you can possible degrade on the new battle system you can already degrade in the current system, with the additional downgrade of it has a Stamina restriction currently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shai

Um. You're not running around like a headless chicken.
You're making a calculated effort to avoid conal or circular AOE.
It's incidentally quite easy in this game. I liked that, wanted it expanded on even.

Purposely moving about and not attacking allows stamina to recharge. It was a direct answer to the question "When would you purposely be doing nothing to allow stamina to recharge?" or something to that effect. Sleep & Bind also come to mind.

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Read my post above because if you're losing TP and running so far the mob loses battle, then yes you're running like a headless chicken and should stop playing this game because you suck so bad at it, you can easily dodge with facing the mob every second. And so what? You're now upset that a bar is not being filled up so you can do more stuff because the bar restricts you where as now the new system has no bar and you dont need to wait for it you can just go right ahead and do your skills LIKE SHOWN IN THE VIDEO BY THE PUGILIST ZOMG

Sadly I know either one of you is going to come back with some crazy gesture that it offers depth for some lame excuse like "its an addition!", if your gf's addition was hiv would you do it? but sadly I has to sleep, so this thread can die like every other thread does. Except awesome ones like 1-to-50 :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Man what are you on about lol, giving me a head storm that im just going to go point to point.

Your first point is practically saying when ur not using ur skills or gaining tp ur lowering ur DPS, but the current system relies on u always hitting attack which can be slow simetimes when u gotta scroll across 30 slots, and ofc again it relies on your timing which still has a delay due to the stamina, the new system does this all automatically to the exact millisecond even if your picking your nose or jacking off your DPS aint gunna change but be better than before.

And then you go on about dodging, if you're locked on you can just press left or right and you dodge, you'd always face the target due to lock on and always be in range, also if you dont do lockon like me, then run through the mob, its always better evasive than running the direction the mob is facing... Also you wont lose TP this way.

You dont know how far AA range is, if its like XI it's pretty damn good, infact it'd be same range as you can do now on XIV with your manual attack, granted only mages would really get affected but im fine with that, i'd rather be doing other stuff when its fixed.

There is absolute no advantages to stamina at all, its just another restriction.

Because you need
- The right MP/TP
- The cooldown to be 0
- The stamina amount

Now they removing the Stamina
wow now... now you only have 2 restrictions, aint that a joy...

Sorry for the insulting sarcasm but it needs to be said.

People think this illusion of being able to do lots of skills at once, you cant, you still have to wait for a cooldown, and saying that will be higher is just arguing over make belief crap. We have a video right there infront of us, and cooldowns look fine, nothings changed, all fine and dandy.

The way I see it, is before I had 3 different skills I want to do, all cost 1000 TP but because they each use 50% stamina I couldn't chain them i'd have to do 2 then just wait it out. But the new system lets me do them because it removes the stamina restriction.

Then whilst I was deciding which skills to use and planning my strategy the system was helping me out by attacking and gaining me the TP so I can focus on the important things. It would gain TP and be a faster DPS than me because I play controller and I'd hit Light stab and then I might wanna do slow which is on pad 2 so i gotta switch then maybe Poison so I switch to Pad 3 and then back up to light stab and im hitting buttons all over place and its like navigating a flipping TV box set.

I want to play a game, not a UI. Theres no reason for me to keep spamming 1 1 1 1 over and over, its no different if it does it for me. Do you walk everywhere or drive? Do you light some matches in the garden and prop up pig on wood and cook your own bacon or use a gril from the bacon the farmer made and you bought at the market.

Everything you can possible degrade on the new battle system you can already degrade in the current system, with the additional downgrade of it has a Stamina restriction currently.




Read my post above because if you're losing TP and running so far the mob loses battle, then yes you're running like a headless chicken and should stop playing this game because you suck so bad at it, you can easily dodge with facing the mob every second. And so what? You're now upset that a bar is not being filled up so you can do more stuff because the bar restricts you where as now the new system has no bar and you dont need to wait for it you can just go right ahead and do your skills LIKE SHOWN IN THE VIDEO BY THE PUGILIST ZOMG

Sadly I know either one of you is going to come back with some crazy gesture that it offers depth for some lame excuse like "its an addition!", if your gf's addition was hiv would you do it? but sadly I has to sleep, so this thread can die like every other thread does. Except awesome ones like 1-to-50 :D

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you just arent understanding it.

with a cool down system lets say your best attack is on a 8 second cool down, and the fight lasts 40 seconds if you hit your WS as soon as it is up you get to do 5 WS in 40 seconds, if you delay to dodge WS you may only get 4 or 3. also you are not getting tp, or doing AA damage fore the 5 seconds it takes to dodge

Dodging isnt always about moving to the side, its sometimes about running far away.

point in case, rubyscale pteroc, tail chase huge aoe damage, long cast, giving you time to dodge. moving to the side wont help you, you need to run far from the enemy.

these cases you lose damage for dodging, tank and spank is encouraged, unless you absolutely have to move or die/suffer horrible debilitation you should just take all damage cause you are lowering your dps.

Quote:

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Read my post above because if you're losing TP and running so far the mob loses battle, then yes you're running like a headless chicken and should stop playing this game because you suck so bad at it, you can easily dodge with facing the mob every second. And so what? You're now upset that a bar is not being filled up so you can do more stuff because the bar restricts you where as now the new system has no bar and you dont need to wait for it you can just go right ahead and do your skills LIKE SHOWN IN THE VIDEO BY THE PUGILIST ZOMG

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WTF are you talking about, man? Why would I run "so far the mob loses battle?" When was that implied?

You never ran out of range of the slug discharge? You never run out of range of the circular red-Puk AOE? Certainly you don't have to, but you can, and if you did, you'd return to the fray with full stamina.

I'm not sure why you're over complicating or simplifying things, or telling me I can't play the game because you can't understand what 2 people are explaining to you in a variety of ways and examples. Oh well. I tried. Sleep tight.

Sorry I have been to sleep but am awake now, but got to go to work soon ><

For all the examples you guys have given for the stamina system there is only two issues:

1: No longer being able to store stamina for a zerg on mashing 1,1,1,1,1, now you have to use a new tactic. This alone is going to make battles more challenging and need a better use of tactics. So for the Mongrel example use a BR to constrain it's TP generation and increase it's TP costs, spells like Absorb TP or WS's like Twisting Vice to remove it's TP. Spells like Slow to slow it's moves down, Absorb Attack to reduce damage it can do to further slowing TP generation. So you can see it is going to make things a lot more tactical and not just the 1,1,1,1,1 zerg you are probably using currently, now you will have to use a wide assortment of skill's and spells to come up with strategies to topple foes. This I thought would be a good thing and something that would be welcomed by the community.

2: When you run away you won't be regaining stamina to launch a zerg to catch up on TP lost. Again this is more or less the same as the first issue. In the example of Puk's and Tail Chase again you should now be looking at ways to limit it's TP generation and also looking at ways to stun the mob. If you can't stop it then quickly run away return and make sure that next time you are ready to stop it.

I think we have been spoilt by our mini zergs and proper use of skills and abilities has taken a back seat in FFXIV for to long, hopefully now that it has been removed we can start focusing on new and challenging tactics and strategies to defeat our enemies.

You call them zergs,

we call them calculated attacks.

To each their own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shai

H That they will turn this game into XI slowly over time and everything "good" about the game (player control over character progression and customized playstyles) will die and we'll all be waiting 6 hours for parties to form (once they nerf Guildleves). The masses got what they wanted and I'm going to be out one unique MMO experience.

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I love how whenever people be cynical about XI they bring this up, yet in my 9 years of playing XI I've never had to wait hours for a party, because I actually started my own party. Go figure eh? XIV wasn't a unique experience and it never would or will be. It was always a shell of it's predecessor.

Kinda funny to make a thread about this when you have only seen one video of AA still in early stage. You have played 9 months with the current system and not even a second with new one. Given this, you cannot conclude anything.

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Kinda funny to make a thread about this when you have only seen one video of AA still in early stage. You have played 9 months with the current system and not even a second with new one. Given this, you cannot conclude anything.

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You didn't even read the thread. Thanks for your valuable input.

I welcome AA and the loss of the stamina system.

You're all wrong and I'm right. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petori

Kinda funny to make a thread about this when you have only seen one video of AA still in early stage. You have played 9 months with the current system and not even a second with new one. Given this, you cannot conclude anything.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You didn't even read the thread. Thanks for your valuable input.

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This poster actually got it right. Unless SE invited you to play the AA build.

I, myself expect slightly longer cool downs on skills to balance out the abilities. It will make you play a bit more tactical instead of spamming that one super awesome move:
...... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... again

I welcome AA with open arms. I'm getting sick and tired of having to choose every single attack my character makes. I have my god damn weapon drawn and this little chipmunk gnawing on my ankle ... OF COURSE I WANT TO ATTACK IT! why do i have to input that command for every action?

Your "sense of freedom" is my "lack of enjoyment" I can't speak for everyone who left the game, but I'll wager that a large portion of the people who left for one reason or another, just might agree with me that the current battle system is a tedious and unfulfilling one!

And like previous posters have stated. You'll be able to do your bam BAM BAM! spike damage.... you might not be able to open with it on your first battle, but you will be able to use back to back to back WS.

Your argument for wanting to use a skill for certain properties is pointless. SOLUTION: SAVE IT! if you want to use a WS because it has a "Stun" effect or "inhibits TP gain" save it for when it's necessary. Those are utility skills you're concerned about, not DD spam WS.

All in all, you created a thread of which you have largely, only have speculation to go on. While your concerns of longer cool-downs may be valid, but if it's for balance reasons thats just fine. It's time to play with some strategy and tactics instead of just by in large spam skills when our stamina meter allowed it.

are you still making videos about how great FFXIV is in it's current format?
Go make this video:
"The comparison and contrasts of FFXIV "freedom mode" vs "Auto attack" and their direct relation to wear and tear on user input devices, and player phalange fatigue over average gaming sessions of a MMO gamer"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

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Not for my Thaumaturge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp

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Err, not really, even if you're waiting to charge stamina, they are still building TP by hitting you. Best way to kill wolves is to Twisting Vice their ass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

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This goes back to what Physic was saying:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again.

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With auto attack, when you run away to avoid a TP move, you miss out on an opportunity to attack. In the stamina system, in the time you spent evading, you are regaining stamina. Then, one you are in range again, you can use that built up stamina to do two normal attacks in quick succession. When evading a mob's TP attack under AA, you may have only gotten in one hit in a 3 second time span, whereas with the current system you would have been able to get in 2 or 3 hits instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You call them zergs,

we call them calculated attacks.

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From a strategic standpoint, there really isn't any compelling reason why saving up stamina for burst attacks is worthwhile. It averages out to the same in the end. In the current battle system, the management of your normal attacks is only useful to archers because of multishot. It's pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the classes since doing this: "1..1......1...1................1111" is functionally the same as doing this: "1...1...1...1...1...1"

Personally, I would have liked to have a more action-RPG, Monster Hunter style of gameplay, but in keeping the battle system the way it is, the reasoning behind auto attack is better than what we have now since AA eliminates redundant keystrokes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Not for my Thaumaturge.



Err, not really, even if you're waiting to charge stamina, they are still building TP by hitting you. Best way to kill wolves is to Twisting Vice their ass.


This goes back to what Physic was saying:


With auto attack, when you run away to avoid a TP move, you miss out on an opportunity to attack. In the stamina system, in the time you spent evading, you are regaining stamina. Then, one you are in range again, you can use that built up stamina to do two normal attacks in quick succession. When evading a mob's TP attack under AA, you may have only gotten in one hit in a 3 second time span, whereas with the current system you would have been able to get in 2 or 3 hits instead.


From a strategic standpoint, there really isn't any compelling reason why saving up stamina for burst attacks is worthwhile. It averages out to the same in the end. In the current battle system, the management of your normal attacks is only useful to archers because of multishot. It's pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the classes since doing this: "1..1......1...1................1111" is functionally the same as doing this: "1...1...1...1...1...1"

Personally, I would have liked to have a more action-RPG, Monster Hunter style of gameplay, but in keeping the battle system the way it is, the reasoning behind auto attack is better than what we have now since AA eliminates redundant keystrokes.

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twisting vice, may be cool, but it also is a high level lancer skill, and in all honesty may become lancer only from the general direction they were talking about, regardless in the new system they will probably have to make sure people have things like twisting vice, or stun available to them, because the system does make tank and spank more effective, and burst tactics, a little different.
stamina is gone though, it had some good points and some bad, hopefully they make some interesting mechanics with the new system. But most of all they need to up difficulty, because although we already had a great deal of tools at our disposal, and viable tactics to handle monsters with different strengths, weakness, and ways to handle their tricks, we almost never had to use them, because we fight easy enemies.
How many people know dodos wont turn around until they want to use a WS, or that dodos have two forms of debuff, both avoidable.
Biasts flip out and change their stats
most monsters ranged attacks are elemental based

they really need to uncap the exp, and make it so tough battles are rewarding. People feel bored and useless when all they have to do is AA, and very little they do actually matters in the fight.
Gla? rarely even gets to hold any hate on anything 10 levels higher.
pug? gets to do about 3-4 hits and WS
con? doesnt even usually get time to cast a offensive magic, just spam cure or throw a couple darts
marauder, master of standstill AoE versus..... 1 monster... ... and has to move all the time...
lancer? buffs the party! but comrade is how useful when the monster dies in 2 seconds.
People will continue to hate battle, and never learn whatever system they come up with, unless they make us actually have to play well to survive.

The good parts of our skills

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You didn't even read the thread. Thanks for your valuable input.

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I did. Thread about assumptions of new system VS facts of the current system. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you're not right either. Faintly reminds me of devil's proof.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you just arent understanding it.

with a cool down system lets say your best attack is on a 8 second cool down, and the fight lasts 40 seconds if you hit your WS as soon as it is up you get to do 5 WS in 40 seconds, if you delay to dodge WS you may only get 4 or 3. also you are not getting tp, or doing AA damage fore the 5 seconds it takes to dodge

Dodging isnt always about moving to the side, its sometimes about running far away.

point in case, rubyscale pteroc, tail chase huge aoe damage, long cast, giving you time to dodge. moving to the side wont help you, you need to run far from the enemy.

these cases you lose damage for dodging, tank and spank is encouraged, unless you absolutely have to move or die/suffer horrible debilitation you should just take all damage cause you are lowering your dps.

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But in the current system you dont get TP when you dodge (Dodging being running in a straight line away), so why are you saying this bullshit that will be in both systems.

This thread is beyond retarded.

To the OP (and those that agree), I sincerely congratulate you on developing effective strategies utilizing a broken and tedious battle system. I understand that you feel all your hard work was in vain since they are changing that system.

Will the new system be "fixed & fun"? We will see. I suspect that it will still be "broken" in some respect or another but I have the utmost faith that players like you will figure out the best strategies for the new system(s) as it evolves.

Personally, I stopped playing awhile ago out of frustration with the Anima/Travel system (forced breaks to recharge Anima and Leve resets.) but also because I did not want to get too accustomed to the current battle system and Stat Point Allotment since it is all changing.

You have been playing for 9 months with a system they said early on would be changed so in one sense I feel you can't really complain about having to learn new strategies but on the other hand, I really do respect the opinions of those of you who have stuck it out and keep on playing because you are the ones who can help identify what things are Good in XIV and shouldn't be altered too much as well as which additional things need to be changed.

I do kinda feel sorry for those of you who "really like this game, it just needs a few tweaks", but most of you have recognized that you are the minority and it is changing, quite dramatically it seems in some cases. I am hopefull though, that because of these forums and not despite them, that we will end up with the best of both worlds (XI and XIV).

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Originally Posted by viion

But in the current system you dont get TP when you dodge (Dodging being running in a straight line away), so why are you saying this bullshit that will be in both systems.

This thread is beyond retarded.

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you really dont see? ok
lets say i am auto attacking if i move to dodge the monsters skill, for however long it takes to run away, and run back i am doing no damage, and gaining no tp, whatever dps that cause in damage, and WS from tp is lost

if you have stamina your stamina is probably half, you run away, you cant attack for that time, but by the time you go back, you can make up for it, since your stamina is full.


Essentially a major point of a stamina system is doesnt matter if i constantly hit the button, or i wait 10 seconds and hit the button, i will get the same amount of attacks in a 20 second period.
in AA any time you are out of AA range, you are losing attacks, and tp, you cant run back and throw 5 attacks, you just missed those opputunities.


to say it different,
stamina means i can throw 10 attacks however i want in 1 minute
AA means i can throw 1 attack every 6 seconds.

if i run from a mob for 30 seconds, in stamina system i can still land 10 attacks/gain 10 attacks worth tp
if i run for a mob for 30 seconds in a AA system it means i can only throw 5 attacks/gain 5 attacks worth tp

any situation where you get stopped, knocked away, slept, the monster runs you run, you have to wait for others, in a stamina system you dont lose the amount of skills you can perform
in AA in all of those cases you lose.

im not saying whether you care or think its important, but do you understand what people are saying the difference is? Its a big difference.

auto attack:

- simple, less tedious.

- unable to stop attacking while facing enemy unless turning around / move out of range / go to passive mode
(stop attacking to: not give crab type mob tp while its in defensive mode, more hate/enmity control for dps, not wanting to attack mobs with shock spike buff [like gnat] until it's dispelled, in pvp maybe when someone using punishing bard, there are various reason to stop attacking which i'm sure many mmo players understand - and it's much preferable not to turn around or going out of range, especially for a tank)

- however getting haste effect with auto attack will probably help to ensure the full benefit is obtained when fighting head on without movement ( no human / interface lag error )

- fight possibly, maybe, could get more action heavy since pressing "11111" for regular attack is out of the picture, depending how devs go with it - they can create more skills, but it may be tough since most attacking skills are related to tp and skills are limited by action points (though this is probably not the typical final fantasy style... but well there's only one other final fantasy mmo so who am i to judge)

no auto attack:

- repetitive 1 1 1 1 (believe me... my hand is hurting too), i dont really play that many mmo but, except ffxi, mashing buttons are pretty much everywhere whether it's the always the same button or combination of buttons - such as in wow / aion / blade & soul / diablo (more like mouse clicking maybe), keep in mind they are mmo with action bars , not action mmo like phantasy star online / monster hunter. those mmo i played do not require mashing button for regular attack of course, but regardless they are the same mashing button because skills are used repeatedly

- freedom to attack when you wish (please see above for reason to stop attacking a mob), also when you're fighting many mobs that are crowd controlled with ability such as sleep, you can cycle target cursor through the mobs without worrying accidentally attacking the mob (ffxi: "blm casts sleepga II" "thief auto attack, oops!" "blm casts sleepga II" "thief auto attack again, oops!" "blm pulls hate from casting too many sleepga II and dies" "blm - WTF you moron thf!") well, maybe not many people had experienced that, but that surely happened. actually this is not a big deal, but in ffxiv going from active to passive takes a while compared to other mmo, and the players even lose tp in addition when in passive mode.

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anyway... they are just two different systems with both good and bad qualities as many players have previously mentioned.

i think... if they just let you press "1" once, and the action icon lights up and keeps repeating the action at intervals, and press "1" again to turn off the action from repeating - that would probably helps players who dislike full running auto attack, but it is not going to bring the burst damage back from losing the stamina bar system.

p.s. sorry for the grammar / typo, english is not my main language

Have fun fighting Firebombs under the new system as a melee class.

The stamina bar only serves as a constraint. Nothing more, nothing less. Most of the things you mention you can do with the stamina bar is just you working the system to get the most out of it. It's just another layer to get past in order to perform a skill.

To explain better I'll use Doctor Mog's example of how turning around from a mob for w/e reason makes it so he can't attack is fine with the current system since he would only be saving stamina - which would then allow him to hit his attacks in full force upon re-engaging.

With auto attack, turning around and not being able to attack means you missed out on hits that would have otherwise done some damage and gained you some TP.

Do you not see that these 2 scenarios lead to the same amount of basic attack DPS. Te only way it wouldn't is if AA for whatever reason had slower attack speed. The video displayed a decent speed for the most part, comparable to something we do now with stamina. That speed is only going to be increased, to be consistent with their earlier mention of being faster than FFXI. The only difference here is that with the stamina gauge, you have something to blame - something you can find solace in. "It's ok, by not attacking just now i saved stamina which will allow me to attack w.o waiting for a while anyway." All not attacking did was prolong the inevitable moment where you were going to have to wait for stamina. If you 'chose' to attack slowly to maintain stamina, you just slowed yourself down, again to accommodate an unnecessary constraint.

Why not be able to execute basic attacks w.o waiting all the time? Why not let basic attacks be simply a steady form of DPS and TP gain so that you can spend time thinking about more strategic things, like placement of weaponskills with various effects and uses? Why not let DPS be more about making smart choices and displaying good timing & positioning with the right skills rather than how well I manipulate some arbitrary bar that gives me 1 more constraint to make sure I repeatedly mash the same button at just the right pace?

I'm sorry but, when I play a vital role in a party that brings down some massive beast after long-hard work, I want to feel fulfilled because I made good choices and worked well with my team - not because I successfully managed a bar with a predetermined routine that allowed for the most juice to be squeezed.

The reform to the battle system is going in the direction to enhance uniqueness and strategy of classes and actions so that the emphasis is relocated from basic attacks to actual skills.

It can be difficult to accept change after familiarizing with the current system so well. It can be a daring task to attempt to learn one's way around a new system after having spent so much time to master the system at hand. It's important however to not let such fear cloud our judgement, and to constructively criticize proposed change plans to help improve the game rather than stating the current system is just fine because the new one doesn't allow us to play the way we do now.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

so I cant be a mage tank

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That's all I heard - mage tank <<< !?

Why would anyone ever want to play a game where people can be mages and tanks at the same time. wth are the tanks supposed to do lol.

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Originally Posted by Quietus

That's all I heard - mage tank <<< !?

Why would anyone ever want to play a game where people can be mages and tanks at the same time. wth are the tanks supposed to do lol.

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I liked Paladin in WoW =D

Anyway, I root for waiting for Devs input and the coming of the new battle system, so we can constructively comment about it and tell them our input.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Have fun fighting Firebombs under the new system as a melee class.

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Weapon skills cause the bomb to explode, not regular attacks.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I love how whenever people be cynical about XI they bring this up, yet in my 9 years of playing XI I've never had to wait hours for a party, because I actually started my own party. Go figure eh? XIV wasn't a unique experience and it never would or will be. It was always a shell of it's predecessor.

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I made many, many, many, many of my own parties too, but before I even attempted to make one I did 2 things.
Check for a tank, check for a healer. If those two conditions aren't met, I don't bother.

That still means I'm "waiting" to start a party.
I'm glad you had a unique experience of logging on and jumping straight into a grind within minutes.

That's how my experience with XIV is and I enjoy it. It's not how I'd define the 8 years I played XI.

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Originally Posted by viion

But in the current system you dont get TP when you dodge (Dodging being running in a straight line away), so why are you saying this bullshit that will be in both systems.

This thread is beyond retarded.

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Correct. You get Stamina.

In the proposed system you get neither.
That's the entire point that was trying to be made, man.

It's that simple!

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Originally Posted by viion

But in the current system you dont get TP when you dodge

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Imagine these two scenarios both occur in the span of 3 seconds, and in the scenario with auto-attack, the attack rate is one attack per second.


Auto-attack: Attack once, move out of range to dodge TP move and miss, move back in range and attack. (Total hits landed: 2)

Stamina: Attack once, move out of range to dodge TP move, move back in range and attack twice in rapid succession. (Total hits landed: 3)

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Weapon skills cause the bomb to explode, not regular attacks.

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That was the point of my post, yes.