Holmgang and Foresight still.... Meh ? How I would do it

So while Hollowed Ground is a sure shot at ass-saving and leave healers a lot of room to breath (10 seconds), Holmgang is a very risky and unfair gamble (i.e. you have calculate whether you should should cut off your legs to get hit by every AOE imaginable OR not use it right now and keep dodging AOE instead because maybe you're getting healed the very next second). Even if you hit the jackpot, you still end up with almost no health, and healers always shit their pants watching your 1HP while you have one or two second of Hg left.

I personally think (Holmgang) vs (Hollowed Ground+Tempered Will) is among the most ridiculous examples of class balancing.

So here's my proposal for a new Holmgang:
Effect:
_Apply 40% Heavy on the warrior and nearby enemies (i.e. no target needed to use this oh-shit button). The warrior is immune to other movement effects.
_If the warrior's health dropped below 20% of his maximum HP, grants "Undying Spirit"
_"Undying Spirit" grants 6 seconds of immunity and 400% of all damage done are received as HP. WAR's attacks also always hit and crit during this time.
Duration: 15 seconds
Recast time: 300 seconds. Recast time is halved (150 seconds) if Undying Spirit is never used.

My reasoning: This new Hg fits well with the warrior theme and gameplay. It is still a gamble but with a bigger reward and a lesser punishment:
1) Why add "400% of all damage done are received as HP" during Undying Spirit? Isn't it too much?
_This effect is more symbolic than anything. Having less damage mitigation abilities than PLD, WAR compensates by doing more damage and restores his own HP through said damage.
_Undying Spirit can only proc at most once per 300 second and the WAR can output at most 3 (most likely 2) attacks within the 6 seconds window.
_The lifesteal effect may heal the WAR for 10-20% of his max HP since he's no DPS.

2) Why 300/150 seconds VS Hollowed Ground's 420 seconds?
_The Immunity only lasts 6 seconds instead of 10.
_This new Hg is STILL a gamble. You still get crippled with Heavy resulting in getting hit by bigger AOEs --> You're gambling your current HP and the potential HP healed by healers before "Undying Spirit" procs.
_If the WAR loses the bet, he still lost a large amount of HP due to Heavy yet never benefited from the immunity and he now faces a death sentence with a very low HP (Unlike PLD who still dodge AOEs and gives healers plenty of time to bring his HP back to 100% before the effect of Hollow Ground ends).
_Therefore it makes sense that the WAR don't have to wait the full 300 seconds to use it again as he never benefited from it in the first place (if anything, he wasted a lot of damage mitigation potential for not being able to avoid the big hits).
_The "Immovable" affect of "Tempered Will" is also still tied in with this Holmgang. Should the WAR want to use just the Immovable effect like a PLD would with Tempered Will, he shouldn't have to wait 300s and also risk wasting Undying Spirit. Hence, the 150 seconds for unused Undying Spirit.

What they could do with holmgang is if the warrior takes lethal damage he spikes back up to full health.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluetaro

What they could do with holmgang is if the warrior takes lethal damage he spikes back up to full health.

---

10% HP --> Pop Holmgang and get rooted --> One hit in the face from Boss (Lethal hit) --> 100%HP -->Still rooted for another 4 seconds --> Eat 2 AOEs --> Back to 10%HP -> Can move again the very moment another AOE shoots up --> A Dead Warrior :cool:

Here's my idea. Give Holmgang a 10 second duration, during which time, your HP can't drop below 1 and all of your attacks made during the 10 seconds are given back as 300% health after the effect ends. Also, it would still root the enemy, but instead of rooting you, it would lock you within a 6 Yalm circle around the mob. So, you're still linked by a chain (meaning you can't just run away), but you could still circle or run through the mob if needed to get out of AOEs. It would also retain the knock back immunity effect. Also, the CD would change to match the Paladins (5 minutes).

So, say you're down to 1K HP, and Mountain Buster is coming. You pop Holmgang, MB hits, and you now have 1HP. During the 10 seconds, You get 3 complete GCDs (4 in a perfect world) and put out 1K damage. The 10 seconds ends and your HP jumps from 1 to 3001. Which gives your healer a little breathing room to get off some heals in case they didn't get off any during the effect.

The Paladins Holy Ground would still be better, as it isn't linked to a mob and your HP can't drop during the effect, but, this new Holmgang would be a lot closer and it would stay true to how the Warrior is supposed to play.

As far as Foresight goes, bump it to 40% defense and give us a trait that includes magic defense. Done.

HG do not have limit on how much damage it can absord. it just that some boss ability ignore HG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

If you really want to play up the idea of "Foresight", instead of having it increase Defense, just have it increase Parry chance by an absurdly high amount (80%). Since Parrying is only a ~20-22% reduction in damage taken and the baseline chance for it occurring already exists, it not going to be particularly strong (just look at Bulwark for PLD), and it keeps Foresight applying only to physical attacks (in fact, it would probably have about the same end results as the existing Foresight does).

---

I actually really like this idea or a similar variant of it. Essentially it puts WARs at around the same damage reduction as Rampart albeit only physical damage. Still loads more useful than its current state. I've parried Mountain Busters and Double Wheels. It certainly helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChestyBear

Stuff

---

Sounds pretty useful, too bad SE won't prolly go this way so let's water it down.

Give holmgang the good'ol effects of mighty strikes maybe (because man... "MIGHTY STRIKES" where was this?). Guaranteed crits and infuriated (stacks aren't lost) for the 6 second duration; none of that invincibility or HP absorption crap because the PLD's will whine, they can pop Bloodbath if they want the HP absorption stuff (no, not buffing that either, deal with it). During that time give yourself a buffer of 1.2kish hp from the double inner beasts (GCD is 2-3secs I think) to have a bit further of a fighting chance with the 20% DR from inner beasts... this'll make you survive an Auto-attack at least which is what people are complaining about, right?

Or perhaps make it grant you an after effect of 50% DR for a couple of after seconds, basically a reverse berserk.

Keep the bind stuff because I'd always imagine Holmgang to be some sort of "your going down with me" ability from the warrior... or an intense glomping attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayto

Snip

---

Holmgang has 2 big fat and ugly side effects that make it worthless next to Hollowed Ground:
_ You get rooted for the whole duration
_ The immunity only kicks in when you're at 1HP (Much less than 6 seconds of god mode)
The net result is your HP is most likely dangerously low when it's over (if not 1HP). Combine with the fact that you're rooted, you have very slim chance of surviving the attack that comes right after Holmgang wears off.
Why would a PLD whine about WAR? Everyone can play every class with the same character so it's less of an excuse to not want to balance things out. Plus, if players who play PLD exclusively whine because they no longer have the unfair advantage, let them.
The fact that SE just slapped an additional effect on Holmgang meaning that it was a frantic effort to bring WAR onto PLD level. There's no reason to give a tank class with buttloads of mitigation a God mode ability while denying it from the other.

Holmgang:
Draws target towards caster and prevents knock-back, bind, and heavy effects from target.
Duration: 6s
Most attacks cannot reduce your HP to less than 1. You are healed for the amount of damage taken while under the effect of Holmgang when the effect ends.

Makes the skill worthwhile for a preemptive panic button. Where the Paladin still needs healed from damage taken before Hallowed Ground but receives a longer invulnerability time, Warrior heals itself to full with Holmgang if used properly before large amounts of damage, but within a shorter duration. Say, if a Warrior uses Holmgang at 50% health, unless the healers manage to heal you above 50% within that 6 seconds, the most you could receive at the end of the duration would be 50%. Remove the bind effect, as it makes the skill useless in PvE and too strong in PvP. Give it a prevent knock-back/bind/heavy effects to further bring it in-line with Hallowed Ground and keeps the "chained to me" theme.


Enhanced Foresight (the trait):
Shortens Foresight recast time to 90 seconds. Adds 20% increased magic defense to Foresight effect.

Brings it in-line with Rampart, while keeping it mostly useful only to Marauder/Warrior. Adds magic defense similar to the Proshell trait.

What they should do with Foresight is just replace it with Keen Flurry and give Dragoons something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChestyBear

Holmgang has 2 big fat and ugly side effects that make it worthless next to Hollowed Ground:
_ You get rooted for the whole duration
_ The immunity only kicks in when you're at 1HP (Much less than 6 seconds of god mode)
The net result is your HP is most likely dangerously low when it's over (if not 1HP). Combine with the fact that you're rooted, you have very slim chance of surviving the attack that comes right after Holmgang wears off.

---

This is assuming that you are taking extreme burst damage for the entire 6 seconds and/or the healers arent doing their job. I dont believe anything in the game should take you to 1hp and continue to damage you faster than the healers can keep up, resulting in death. The most damaging combo is death sentence + drop + crit, which happens in the course of about a second or 2, which you can easily block with holmgang, and the healers have plenty of time to get you back healed. It isnt holmgang's fault if you die after it wears off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fue

What they should do with Foresight is just replace it with Keen Flurry and give Dragoons something else.

---

Keen Flurry for berserk? Deal :D

I would be fine with it how it is if it didn't have a self-bind. I'm paranoid about using it because of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanabira

Snip

---

First of all, it's not Holmgang vs itself, it's Holmgang vs Hollowed Ground (and Tempered Will). You totally missed the point there.

Second of all the, the "entire 6 seconds" you have Hg, it roots you to the ground to eat every AOE while not guarantee that it would mitigate any damage at all. You only get damage mitigation when you HP has dropped to 1. Combined with the fact that you're rooted, you're most likely coming out of it dead. So it's 2 folds: Almost no mitigation + eat all AOEs = Not really helping out with healing --> what's the point of using it?

Third of all, the dmg mitigation effect was slapped onto Hg as an attempt to balance WAR and PLD (Hg never had the mitigation originally) It's obviously a half-assed idea and they need fix it.

Out of 10 times that I use Hg in Ultimate HM when my HP is at 10% hp or below:
_ 5 Times HP never dropped to 1 because healers kept my HP hover above 20% (it goes like this: 10%-> HG -> Heal to 50% -> Hit by Lasers and whatnot -> 20% -> Heal to 60% -> Airships drop -> 15% -> Hg wears off): No benefit from mitigation at all yet I ate all AOEs making healers' job even harder.
_ 3 Times HP drops to 1 when I have 2-3 seconds left of HG (meaning the healers are already struggling to keep everyone up) and get hit by the next AOE or ultima's auto or airships the moment Hg disappears = So dead.
_ 2 Times HP drops to 1 due to the inevitable AOE's to the face due to the stupid self-root, but healers manage to heal me back up to 50%+ when it wears off.

So in short: 5 Times Hg works completely against you and healers. 3 Times it gives you a sliver of hope then slaps you with a death sentence. Then the 2 times it actually does something you wonder had you not used Hg, would the damage you could have prevented by dodging AOEs outweight the damage Hg mitigated. So like I stated in one of my previous posts, Hg is a very unfair gamble with very shitty reward even when you do win.

(What's with this 1000 character limit? this is insane)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChestyBear

(What's with this 1000 character limit? this is insane)

---

IKR.

But you can edit one post with as much as you want so you aren't burning posts like wildfire.

The only time I used Holmgang before was during Garuda HM when she would turn to face the party to drop her ranged attack, whose name I have forgotten right now. Also WP Flan.

Last night was the first time I actually used it to some benefit. Got lucky in Titan HM. Took a fat MB to 1 hp, then plumes to my junk. Gave healers that split second to stay up for heals. Looked so amazing. Probably should go buy a lottery ticket. Actually, never mind, used all my luck up last night.

One of three things happens when I use Holmgang. 1) I die immediately after anyways because I'm rooted to the spot and cannot dodge in time, 2) the healers keep me topped up and so using the skill was a waste and I use up more healer mana because again, I'm rooted and can't dodge AoEs or 3) I die anyways because animationdelaylol!

What usually happens to me when I use Holmgang with the healers I run with: Holmgang -> HP dropped to 1 -> Benediction -> Proceed as normal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

well HG has a limit on how much damage can be absorbed, but holmgang does not. I took 60,000 dmg from ultima (5 stacks on aetheroplasm) before it faded and i died... i dont think HG takes that much. This is very situational, i only use it if i think the next ability will 1 shot me. bit of a last ditch effort.

---

HG does not have a limit it just last 10 seconds. Ultimas stacking ability isnt like Ifrit / Titan HM where each stacks makes you take more damage, for Ultima HM once you hit 5 stack you get killed instantly even with HG or Holmgang.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

HG does not have a limit it just last 10 seconds. Ultimas stacking ability isnt like Ifrit / Titan HM where each stacks makes you take more damage, for Ultima HM once you hit 5 stack you get killed instantly even with HG or Holmgang.

---

This is not correct. If you pop HG or Holmgang, you have until the buff wears off. Maybe a second after. It is spectacular to see the insane damage you take each burst.... Still dead, but at least a PLD can give the pt up to about 11 seconds.

Holmgang saved my buns today on our first Twintania clear. I was eating bombs on the node when I had Liquid Hell dumped all over me. My heals kept me up for as long as they could and I popped it with enough time to hit 1 HP twice before Twintania went down(I was at 86 HP at the end).

Holmgang, ah I only use it when too lazy to move and a push back skill is coming, other than that maybe the 10% of the time I use it is to maybe save myself, but if it got to that point that means the healer cannot keep up so without benediction or lustrate, if I do not have convalescence it is pretty much gg and goodnight.

Foresight, right now is like a 9% mitigation(well that is what I have been told) but wait until higher ilvls which means more defense and greater scaling for it(I hope)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

but wait until higher ilvls which means more defense and greater scaling for it(I hope)

---

I doubt it. With better gear comes harder hitting content. Wicked Wheels & Death Sentences, Yay.

this is funny. warriors got buffed alot and they still complain. u dont see us pld asking for more dps or tweaking our skills right. man people will never be satisfied with what they are given. all they want is mememememe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

u dont see us pld asking for more dps or tweaking our skills right.

---

Yes, you do. There are loads of PLDs asking for changes to Shield Swipe, complaining about the delay on Hallowed Ground, talking about how PLD needs a t3 combo that isn't high enmity, and/or bitching about how Cure is worthless to them. PLDs aren't innocent of complaining about their own class.

I'm surprised that you think that classes are perfectly fine exactly as they are all the time or after only a single revision. Classes and jobs are constantly tweaked to make them more playable and more balanced, which is exactly what WARs have been complaining about here: Foresight is a completely laughable survivability CD and Holmgang tries to do so many things that once that it doesn't really manage to do any of them well. Both of them are legitimate concerns that the devs should honestly look into addressing because, otherwise, Foresight will simply remain a laughably useless tank CD and Holmgang will never be as useful as it *should* be given that it's supposed to have rough parity with HG.

@kitry u just proved my point. if they r so bad play a diff class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

@kitry u just proved my point. if they r so bad play a diff class.

---

also u guys got tweaked most out of all and still not haopy. stop being so dam spoiled

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

@kitry u just proved my point. if they r so bad play a diff class.

---

WAR *isn't* bad. You apparently can't seem to marry the idea that someone can enjoy a class with the idea that they believe that there are some aspects of it that could be improved, which I can only assume is you being obtuse and/or ignorant of the fact that the world exists in shades of gray instead of straight black and white.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

WAR *isn't* bad. You apparently can't seem to marry the idea that someone can enjoy a class with the idea that they believe that there are some aspects of it that could be improved, which I can only assume is you being obtuse and/or ignorant of the fact that the world exists in shades of gray instead of straight black and white.

---

u mad bro whats with the name calling. all im saying is u guys got buffed and still have the urge to qq bout your skills. if se caterd to every demand that players had then there would be no more pld around mostly since all I see even after buff to warrior all u guys do is complain

there is more % of warriors still complaining then the people who do enjoy it. seriously how much tweaks did pld get compared to war? stop compari.g every single skils wars had to pld. wars has their own strength and so does pld. stop being so dam spoiled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

u mad bro whats with the name calling.

---

I'm not sure whether this is unintended irony or just deft trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

also u guys got tweaked most out of all and still not haopy. stop being so dam spoiled

---

Stop trolling. There are people who play both classes at end game and see the imbalance. If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation, just leave. People have given their explanations on why Holmgang is worthless comparing to Hollowed Ground. Give us your counter argument before you spit on people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChestyBear

Stop trolling. There are people who play both classes at end game and see the imbalance. If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation, just leave. People have given their explanations on why Holmgang is worthless comparing to Hollowed Ground. Give us your counter argument before you spit on people.

---

lol are u kidding me now this warrior is saying the class is not up to par with pld. only skill that pld has that really outshines wars is hg. they already gave u a mini version of it. cant believe u just said its imbalanced. wow just wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

lol are u kidding me now this warrior is saying the class is not up to par with pld. only skill that pld has that really outshines wars is hg. they already gave u a mini version of it. cant believe u just said its imbalanced. wow just wow.

---

as someone that plays both, warriors are still a little behind. not a lot, but they need a little something more. just make holmgang not root the player or give additional healing while its active or something like that and i'd be happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davkis

lol are u kidding me now this warrior is saying the class is not up to par with pld. only skill that pld has that really outshines wars is hg. they already gave u a mini version of it. cant believe u just said its imbalanced. wow just wow.

---

Don't feed the troll. His only 50 is PLD. He wouldnt have the slightest clue on how 50 WAR feels endgame.

I'm reporting Davkis for trolling and insulting other players. Everyone please do the same and ignore him.

Edit: Looks like some of his offensive posts have been deleted