A few ideas to improve the WHM from a SCH player

It feels like everyone in the forums replied to what I posted, so I'm only picking a few things to specifically respond to so as to not waste everyone's time.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

Aldo and succor raises effective health, regen does not.

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Regen auto-heals damage over a long period of time, meaning you don't need to spend time healing someone if you throw one regen on and they're not taking much further damage. Succor blocks 300ish damage once, Regen heals 300ish damage every few seconds.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

Keep in mind you are at the top of the food chain, you have nearly 5k mana and enough gear that cure gets the job done. Your mana regen does scale with your mana pool. I certainly don't regen 105 mp every tick. And having enough gear that you only need cure isn't a smarter choice, but rather an option you have at your gear level.

If you need only a ds cure to heal a tank after death sentence,either your sch is very good or your entire raid outgears the content.

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Yes, that is the case right now. When we killed Twintania in 7-8ish pieces of i90 some 6 or 7 weeks ago, all of these presumptions were not the case.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

I don't think anyone is saying whm's are bad, or unable to clear content. And the raid heals are certainly in a class of their own. But as I've said before a few qol changes would help.

1:Benedicition is outclassed by lustrate. Moreso due to client/server issues/animation delay. A fix would be fine, imo a change would be better.
2. Fairy outclasses regen due to regen requiring a gcd per cast which I imagine is part of the op's point. If regen is too powerful to be off the gcd entirely then change medica 2. If we are to be forced to rely on hots for topup and small raid heals remove the burst and lower the cost to compensate.

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I agree certain QOL changes would be nice, but I also don't feel they're necessary. Benediction is outclassed by lustrate, yes, but then Succor is outclassed by Medica 2, Physick has no procs to make Adlo free like Cure has procs to make Cure 2 free, and the fairy healing buff / aoe regen are both weaker and on a much longer cooldown than the WHM equivalents. It's give and take.

I personally also like regen more than Eos. Regen is basically free, being only 180ish MP. It's refunded in 2 ticks of natural mana regen no matter what gear you're in, and healers don't stand there chaining casts like a BLM anyway.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

What is the mp cost of Embrace and Lustrate?
Healing for zero mana is very mana efficient...

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Lustrate has a resource cost. Divine Seal Regen heals enough that you can stand there for 6 seconds and get all your MP back, making it virtually a 0 cost as well, and it continues to heal for another 15 seconds afterwards.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Whm does not have any constant free healing they use mana all the time compared to sch.

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Freecure comes up quite a lot actually. And again, Regen is 180ish MP for 21 seconds of constant healing. Do you not understand how incredibly efficient that is?

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Why is sch forced to adloquium but the whm can get by on cure ?

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Cure 2 costs less and heals more than Adlo's heal + shield combined anyway.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Remember adloquium can crit shield for 2.5k+ which reduces the need for healing and migitates boss high damage skills.
Crits from cure 2 will just overheal. Overhealing is wasted mana.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Spends most of it's time overhealing.

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Yes I get it, Adlo is great and converts overhealing to shields. Regen also converts overhealing to future damage healed at no extra cost. Regen basically erases a boss's autoattacks, and provides future healing, like Adlo shields future damage. I don't give a shit if my 180 MP move overheals with 400 of its potency and then heals something for the remaining 650 potency. I don't even give a shit if it overheals 800 potency. It's such a low cost that i'm not wasting any MP in the first place, and the boss will always be autoattacking, which Regen completely takes care of. And if the tank gets a big hit, Regen isn't overhealing anything any more. It actually overheals far less than you seem to believe, considering the boss's autoattacks. In fact, if there was a skill similar to Pacification, except it was "The target can no longer use autoattacks for 21 seconds" and had no cooldown and a ridiculously low MP cost, it sounds pretty good, right? It would mitigate so much damage. Regen is even better than that.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Play both whm and sch. Try to heal,dps and res. Go oom as whm but remain near 100% mp as sch. Proof is in the pudding.

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I heal, dps, and res as WHM all the time. As I said in my first post, throwing out Raises is the only time I go oom because I don't have the mana regeneration that Scholars do. Healing and DPSing at the same time barely moves my MP bar, and hasn't in a very long time. Oh, and I also have SCH at 50.

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Originally Posted by Avette

From your profile, I see you have loot from Twintania as well as a weapon from killing all the extreme primals, so it would seem that your raid is playing correctly, and not just you. While it would be great to assume the conditions you describe for every healer out there, unfortunately many of the rest of us have to heal through more substantial player error and sub-optimal tank gear, etc. For the purposes you describe, WHM can often not spare the GCD to use a regen instead of a more direct heal.

Again, this is a product of being overgeared and likely pertains to healing demands for a well- or over-qualified raid for current content. Having your efficiency be gear dependent to that extent makes the class itself internally imbalanced.

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See above. I have loot from Twintania and EX primal staff, but I didn't create my character with these items. I struggled through all the content that everyone else did, except in even worse gear than most people, since we didn't have the gear drops and myth weeks/months ago that people do now going through this content.

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I heal, dps, and res as WHM all the time. As I said in my first post, throwing out Raises is the only time I go oom because I don't have the mana regeneration that Scholars do. Healing and DPSing at the same time barely moves my MP bar, and hasn't in a very long time. Oh, and I also have SCH at 50.

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You are BSing here i could show you a video of a full ilvl90 whm with allagan cane go oom just from stone2 spamming and a regen + medica 2 every so often. Do the math and you will see how much mana total whm has to use and has available in comparison to sch

Whm go oom if they don't idle. Just as you mentioned how you idle in your "regen 300hp every 3 seconds is enough to heal tank damage all by itself point" Nope lol, its your sch thats healing the tank while you are idling. 300hp every 3 second is no where near enough in any serious tank healing situation. The healing from regen is delayed and it takes a gcd. Which is a lull is healing received for the target. Regen has its uses but it overheals alot. To pass cure in healing it needs to do 4/7 ticks. Regen also costs 50% more mana then cure and cannot proc free cure! Its a nice buffer but not a spell that you can rely on or is optimal to do so at all.

Leaving people low and letting them tick up works only in select situations and it relies on people being perfect which is the worst thing to do . It may cause a preventable death, especially in new or cutting edge content. Having people die when you as a healer could of prevented it is imo the sign of a bad healer. I'd rather spend a little more mana getting them full. Besides lol if someone is safe enough that they can enjoy regen, Why even cast it on them in the first place? Just let your sch embrace them, and save the mana cost of regen (Teamwork!). There is no guarantee that regen will do meaningful healing or will just end up overhealing.

If im not using divine seal for HPS and i am using it for mana saving. I would rather use divine seal with aoe heal so i don't have cast another. Much more mana saved then adding +100hp onto a overhealing regen spell.

Anyway Vrmillion i said the problem with whm is that they have to idle alot more then sch. Regening targets encourage idling...

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Originally Posted by Avette

So what you're saying

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I just find it funny how you worded that sentence, like "everyone knows whm is the only job that is shit". Having not played the scholar I don't know the difference, but I personally have never had any thoughts about changing this matter, I have always thought that that's how its supposed to be, you were not meant to heal the entire party if everybody keeps eating aoes and dying all the time. I think it is supposed to be this way so I can't just heal everybody when they make a lot of mistakes, whats the point of those mechanics if I could just heal through them all? Right now we can easily heal through many mistakes and unnecessary damage, but I think a cap was put there on purpose. Again I don't know what scholars can do so if scholars can do that it's a whole different story. But these are my views on this matter, and I might be wrong.

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I think it is supposed to be this way so I can't just heal everybody when they make a lot of mistakes

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If AoE was not meant to be healed.
Why even bring a whm at all then? Or even 2 healers for most situations. Just have everyone dodge everything like perfect robots!

If things were supposed to OHKO they would do so. Healer would be doing jack all, dpsing or ressing majority of the fight if most avoidable damage was supposed to ko.

There is also a middle ground. Eating multiple plumes in titan ex results in ko, eating 1 results in 50% lost. Nearly all multi-landslides results in a ko or knocked off so that is clearly meant to be something that kos.

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if I could just heal through them all? Right now we can easily heal through many mistakes and unnecessary damage

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Maybe not healing quick enough through the aoe damage is the "healer's mistake"? That is how I see it.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

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What she said,

I heal, DPS all the time and the best example I can bring up is on Garuda EX. There is enough "serious healing" downtime that I can let the SCH heal while I go to town. Its rough on my MP pool it really is and when I push it too hard I end up having to idle for MP or ask for a mage song (which totally defeats the purpose of me DPS'ing if I lower my brds dmg doing so)

Also there is no such thing "being a pro WHM is how you Manage your MP". Of course there is the obvious thing and the wasteful spells but outside of that the only factor determining how much MP you spend is how much DMG your party is taking which is totally out of your control.

After the patch essentially making Medica 2 a thrash spell, when I heal BC Turn 5 I switched up my Raid heals on fireball to Cure III... a spell that heals more than medica II but doesn't top off your party member T.T I hate it

When I use Cure III on Titan EX, too much threat (having to drop hate) or a moron that moves out of range

While SCH can DPS 24/7 while his pixie heals and never go OOM (and lets not forget barely build any hate whatsoever)

Only thing that is working in WHM favor is cure II spam.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Again I don't know what scholars can do so if scholars can do that it's a whole different story. But these are my views on this matter, and I might be wrong.

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Scholars can do that. It's a whole different story. You might be wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

You are BSing here i could show you a video of a full ilvl90 whm with allagan cane go oom just from stone2 spamming and a regen + medica 2 every so often. Do the math and you will see how much mana total whm has to use and has available in comparison to sch

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQ1f...ature=youtu.be

Here's a video of me DPSing a target dummy while also keeping Regen up near permanently, with no break from casting. There's some lag towards the end because my internet is bad. It took me 6 minutes and 15 seconds of constant casting to go oom, which is far longer than any boss requires one to continuously DPS and heal at the same time.

For added fun, I made a video of me spamming heals with no break to see how long it takes me to go oom. Keep in mind that no healer ever has to heal this frequently, and has ample time to take a breather and recover MP in even the most intense fights, or rely on the other healer. It still took me 4 minutes and 34 seconds.

By the way, I never said WHM had better MP management than SCH. I don't know why everyone keeps saying I did. Everyone was saying WHM sucks at MP, and I disagreed. However (and I don't claim to be the best scholar), I also added even more fun of my 50 scholar spamming heals until oom. It took me 3 minutes and 30 seconds to run out of mana, with Aetherflow coming back up soon, but my hard drive ran out of space. Though to be fair, an extra 899 MP probably wouldn't have lasted another minute and 4 seconds.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Just as you mentioned how you idle in your "regen 300hp every 3 seconds is enough to heal tank damage all by itself point" Nope lol, its your sch thats healing the tank while you are idling. 300hp every 3 second is no where near enough in any serious tank healing situation. The healing from regen is delayed and it takes a gcd. Which is a lull is healing received for the target. Regen has its uses but it overheals alot. To pass cure in healing it needs to do 4/7 ticks. Regen also costs 50% more mana then cure and cannot proc free cure! Its a nice buffer but not a spell that you can rely on or is optimal to do so at all.

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First, I said Regen counteracts boss autoattacks, not everything. I said Divine Seal Regen heals mostly everything except big hits like Mountain Buster and Death Sentence. It doesn't act right away which is why you apply it before the tank takes damage. As in, you keep it up constantly, which is only common sense. Furthermore, regen only needs 3/7 ticks because 3 x 150 is 450, which is more than 400. Going on more, yes, Regen costs 50% more than a cure, for 260% more healing. Regen is also 186mp for as much as Cure 1 plus Cure 2 combined, which is 400 MP. You can rely on this spell until the end of time.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Leaving people low and letting them tick up works only in select situations and it relies on people being perfect which is the worst thing to do . It may cause a preventable death, especially in new or cutting edge content. Having people die when you as a healer could of prevented it is imo the sign of a bad healer. I'd rather spend a little more mana getting them full. Besides lol if someone is safe enough that they can enjoy regen, Why even cast it on them in the first place? Just let your sch embrace them, and save the mana cost of regen (Teamwork!). There is no guarantee that regen will do meaningful healing or will just end up overhealing.

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You assume that I *only* use regen on people. No, if someone's in danger of dying, then I cure them. If someone eats a weight in Titan and there's 30 more seconds until Tumults, then I'm throwing a regen on them instead of wasting 2 GCDs and double the mana to cure 2 them twice. There are different situations in this game, and not everyone is in danger of dying all the time. You cast regen to heal them when they're not in danger, but they could be again soon. That's like saying why even cure a tank if he's just gonna take damage again? Also I can't seem to repeat this enough that Regen is a paltry amount of MP to spend. It literally makes almost no difference, so there's no MP to "save" by not casting it. Especially when it's the most cost effective heal WHMs have by far.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

If im not using divine seal for HPS and i am using it for mana saving. I would rather use divine seal with aoe heal so i don't have cast another. Much more mana saved then adding +100hp onto a overhealing regen spell.

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Do you even know how Divine Seal works? You don't only use one skill with it. There's absolutely no reason to not throw up a regen while it's up and you're curing other people. It's also a 1min cooldown so you barely even need to save it for anything.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

We could do with PoM getting made useful[...]

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Why does everyone say PoM is useless? The cooldown's too long (imo) but I get quite a bit of use out of it. I find it very helpful when people are too spread out for an AE heal to be effective, for firing off multiple regens/cures after a medica II, or heck any situation where casting faster is desirable. If the cooldown stays as-is I'd like its duration to be a second or two longer to make up for the animation delay.

It's certainly situational, but certainly not useless.

My only real gripe about WHM - other than benediction lag - is Cure III's tiny radius. I just can't get much use out of an AE heal that can't even reach the melee behind the boss when I cast it on the tank, despite how much it heals for.

Maybe my view on it will change over time; I've only been lv50 for 3 days.

People also keep mentioning threat. Can't say it's been a problem for me.

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Originally Posted by Rigsta

Why does everyone say PoM is useless?

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Because it pretty much is. Because you may use it every so often doesn't make it good. I use it a lot and I still think it is pretty useless. The cool down is one of the main reasons why it is. 3 minutes for 10 seconds (8ish actually) makes it something you really want to use at certain times. Even with a good chunk of spell speed gear the cast time isn't reduced by that much. You get around an extra cast or possibly two in that time and then you're locked out from using it for 3 minutes.

One of the best times I've found to use it is when Fey Glow is up. Fey Glow increases spell speed, hits everyone in range, last 30 seconds and has a minute cool down. Compare that to PoM. You can see which is clearly superior. Now together, I have almost second cast times, but I'm not healing during that point because the scholar is main healing and doesn't need me with my regen and I can get a good amount of dps in so little time. If your Scholar is playing with Selene and Fey Glow is up and any bad scenario is going at that time then it could be quite helpful, but when your group gets this big massive amount of damage will your first thought be to get your PoM up first or will it be to heal them asap? When you become established to a certain group of people who know what they are doing then it is just a skill that sits there and maybe gets used once or twice a fight.

I don't want skills to be "situational." Starting to really dislike that word. Benediction is a situational skill that isn't even that due to the cast time. PoM shouldn't be. It should be better. What I would like is for the time to be increased, cool down reduced and possibly spell cost reduced by half/completely while PoM is up. Comparing Fey Glow, it makes me wonder what were they thinking at the time? "Fey Glow: Lasts 30 seconds, buffs everyone in range and has a 1 minute cool down. PoM: Ehh, Lets make it 10 seconds on the user only and give it a 3 minute cool down." Sounds pretty even if you ask me. Bleh.

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Originally Posted by Vrmillion

By the way, I never said WHM had better MP management than SCH. I don't know why everyone keeps saying I did.

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It's called having an agenda. Your post doesn't fit with the narrative that WHM is weak, underpowered, and in need of some buffs, and therefore words are going to be twisted until it looks like you're being ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Rigsta

Why does everyone say PoM is useless?

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Theres a chance that if you start casting immediately after using PoM that the animation will interrupt your first spell about halfway through the cast time, not only completely negating any benefit from the ability, but likely making you behind for the duration as well. After a couple of tank deaths due to trying to use it as a panic button, I simply ignore it now. I only bother using it for bursts of damage with stone II/holy.

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Originally Posted by Vrmillion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQ1f...ature=youtu.be

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You are only using single target heals in your mp usage . Mp3 in combat would be enough to let you cure/cure2/regen/freecure for it seems only 3minutes in your video? But cure/regen is not enough to heal fights and isn't why you bring a whm.

6minutes of just a regen,shroud and stone 2 makes you oom. You have proven my point. Now add aoe heals, a raise, stoneskins in there and see how quicker whm goes oom. Most fights are longer then 6 minutes especially if they aren't on farm mode. TT is 13minutes,fireball phase, ex titan and ifrit require alot of aoe healing.

Idling is boring and bad design. Especially in a 2.5 gcd game.

Last point is that lesser geared whm will struggle more on mp then us.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

If AoE was not meant to be healed.
Why even bring a whm at all then? Or even 2 healers for most situations. Just have everyone dodge everything like perfect robots!

If things were supposed to OHKO they would do so. Healer would be doing jack all, dpsing or ressing majority of the fight if most avoidable damage was supposed to ko.

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Of course it is meant to be healed, but to a certain extent. Just like you said with the plume eating, it is entirely possible and expected to heal through some of it, but if there are 2 players that constantly keep eating them (maybe even dying) then you are gonna eventually run out of mp and I have always thought it's meant to be this way. And in many battles there is aoe damage that can't be avoided (sometimes reduced some way beforehand). That plus avoidable aoe to a certain extent is what I think aoe healing is for.

But I think this is a little off-topic no?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Of course it is meant to be healed, but to a certain extent. Just like you said with the plume eating, it is entirely possible and expected to heal through some of it, but if there are 2 players that constantly keep eating them (maybe even dying) then you are gonna eventually run out of mp and I have always thought it's meant to be this way. And in many battles there is aoe damage that can't be avoided (sometimes reduced some way beforehand). That plus avoidable aoe to a certain extent is what I think aoe healing is for.

But I think this is a little off-topic no?

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If 2 people keep dying you will wipe to the dps check anyways.

Off topic but SE didn't post in this thread so it may be ignored. We will never know how much they actually use these forums when deciding on changes. Imo not much judging by their design choices. E.g buffing lustrate, making whm mana efficiency worse by nerfing medica 2, not using wow's pet control system.

I disagree with many of the points in the OP. Scholar has mana issues as well, if they sit and spam their most powerful heal. I cast Physick more often than Adlo, for instance. You WILL go OOM if you sit and burn through Adlo's on the tank, even in a difficult Coil fight where the tank is constantly taking big damage, and the Adlo shield isn't being overwritten by itself. Throw in a couple of Succor's and you are doomed.

The faery giving us the ability to split heals is useful, but also a liability, as the faery can die, resulting in a huge mana cost and the burn of a Swiftcast. The faery is also difficult to manage in complex boss fights where AE must be managed. Even in the second boss in Haukke Manor HM, my faery ends up Silenced most of the time, because I can't move her quick enough to get out of the AE. Luckily, it's a pretty low damage fight.

The only real disadvantage a WHM has is the ability to draw agro (which they have tools to fix), and Benediction's stupid animation issues. WHM is the "big numbers" classic healer, which is how they function in the game. Their AE heals are vastly superior to Scholar, who has to individually heal members of a party after a big AE attack, rather than tapping "Medica" and being done with it.

WHMs are horrid to play if you main SCH.

Easy fixes:

1) Decrease time on shroud of saints and/or increase potency of refresh
2) Make the enmity drop a separate skill
3) Get rid of the horrible proc system that BLMs have. If freecure pops, I want to know immediately instead of during the next cure 1 cast.
4) Revert medica change or increase radius of cure 3 substantially.
5) Make overcure proc more often
6) Stick a proc skill on regen. Ex) Chance on regen tick that your next cure 2 costs no mana and is instant cast.
7) Make piety worth it. The piddly amount of MP you gain for stacking piety is ridiculous.

And above all: the freecure and overcure procs from cure 1 and cure 2 should have no timer: you should have an infinite amount of time to cast them so that you can use them wisely and don't suffer from the spell's base speed (cutting off seconds on the freecure/overheal proc timer).
Not all of these need to be added but a few should be a given.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

6minutes of just a regen,shroud and stone 2 makes you oom. You have proven my point. Now add aoe heals, a raise, stoneskins in there and see how quicker whm goes oom.

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I see you complain often about perceived imbalances between WHM and SCH. Have you considered that you don't know how to play WHM very well? For instance, in the post above, you're admitting to casting Stoneskin mid-fight. Have you ever looked at the MP to heal ratio of Stoneskin? It's only meant to be used before a fight, when your MP regen is boosted and it is essentially free. Also, SCH (who also has MP issues if they play improperly) mana would be equally effected by casting Raise mid-fight.

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Originally Posted by nocks

I see you complain often about perceived imbalances between WHM and SCH. Have you considered that you don't know how to play WHM very well? For instance, in the post above, you're admitting to casting Stoneskin mid-fight. Have you ever looked at the MP to heal ratio of Stoneskin? It's only meant to be used before a fight, when your MP regen is boosted and it is essentially free. Also, SCH (who also has MP issues if they play improperly) mana would be equally effected by casting Raise mid-fight.

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so you never use SS for hard hitting predictable moves like the appearance of King Moogle, or SS'ing the tank to suck up the spheres in Ultima HM to keep your tank from dropping to critical levels? as a few examples.

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Originally Posted by nocks

I see you complain often about perceived imbalances between WHM and SCH. Have you considered that you don't know how to play WHM very well? For instance, in the post above, you're admitting to casting Stoneskin mid-fight.

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Stoneskining mid encounter is a fundamental method for dealing with big hitting moves such as Death Sentence. It's more important now than ever with both rain of death and virus getting nerfed for 2.1. And as mentioned, the only time I run into mp problems as whm is when I'm having to raise. I have no issues wining parser battles whilst also pitching in on a bit of dps (Or even holying for stuff like garuda ex plumes or titan HM heart), I certainly wouldn't sit there using stone 2 for dps if I'm expected to heal unless the group's almost certainly going to wipe without that little burst of damage.

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Originally Posted by Aeser

so you never use SS for hard hitting predictable moves like the appearance of King Moogle, or SS'ing the tank to suck up the spheres in Ultima HM to keep your tank from dropping to critical levels? as a few examples.

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Not unless I had plenty of mana to burn and knew I wasn't going to run out, no. Unless those big attacks are guaranteed to kill someone, it's always going to save you MP to heal them after the attack rather than before. Also, pre-loading Regen is more MP-efficient and will serve much of the same goal. Stoneskin just doesn't give much health back for how much MP it costs. If you've got plenty of MP, then go crazy. If you're using it before the fight, then great.

wait, are you referring to WHM stoneskin? with 18% damage mitigation which equals 1280 damage mitigated on a 7k HP tank., or the untraited SCH version. with only supports 10%.

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Originally Posted by nocks

Not unless I had plenty of mana to burn and knew I wasn't going to run out, no. Unless those big attacks are guaranteed to kill someone, it's always going to save you MP to heal them after the attack rather than before. Also, pre-loading Regen is more MP-efficient and will serve much of the same goal. Stoneskin just doesn't give much health back for how much MP it costs. If you've got plenty of MP, then go crazy. If you're using it before the fight, then great.

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Sorry but from a cnj/whm perspective you are wrong. Please level the job to 50 and get some groundwork on turn 5 as whm done first before you post really strong opinions like that. Stoneskinning big hits is NOT going to have any whm worth their salt running pom, it is a central part of our class against powerful hitting but predictable bosses such as Twintania and Titan.

The cast time is quite long on stoneskin, with questionable returns over Cure II. More damage prevented/healed over 2.5 seconds on a good tank in certain situations, but less over 5.0 seconds, as you will get two Cure II's in that time and only one Stoneskin. Stoneskin doesn't overheal, though, so I see where it could be useful if you have time and mana. You don't need to be a 50 WHM to understand math. I said there were times when it might be useful - fights where you have a lot of time and MP - but it should not be part of your rotation. Here's what the guy who's skills I was questioning says about it on another thread, for instance:

"Yes the problem with stoneskin for tank healing is its cast time. 3 seconds too long to be used as a tank migitation tool. You don't have time to pre stoneskin and time a cure 2 .Normally the boss breaks the stoneskin before using its tank killer ability. - Shabazisspecial"

Cure 1 is king as far as day to day healing goes, nothing beyond regen comes close for us.

Stoneskin's worth in combat is mitigating big predictable hits, for example death sentence without any debuffs, stoneskin or adloq will take a 7k PLD down to the point that the next melee hit or plummet (that generally follows less than a second behind) will kill them. It's not possible to have virus up for every death sentence now and not everyone runs with a warrior in T5 so that's a big chunk of damage reduction gone right there. Big stoneskin/adloq shields are absolutely paramount to stop comedy tank deaths against this ability. It's entirely possible to time a pre stoneskin and cure 2 for said big hit as I do it week in week out like clockwork for loot as does likely any other whm that's cleared Turn 5.

Even if the ability isn't a near enough insta kill, it still proves it's worth against similar attacks such as Titan's Mountain Buster helping tanks with soso gear survive that big hit safely allowing both tanks to carry on as normal rather than blowing mp/aetherflow charges panic healing them back up.

Stoneskin is very useful mid fight . Its 30 minutes of extra effective hp.
Effective hp is useful at migitating boss attacks for
People who have res sickness,
People with low total hp such as mages or gimps
People who struggle to avoid attacks.

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Originally Posted by nocks

The cast time is quite long on stoneskin

"Yes the problem with stoneskin for tank healing is its cast time. 3 seconds too long to be used as a tank mitigation tool. You don't have time to pre stoneskin and time a cure 2 .Normally the boss breaks the stoneskin before using its tank killer ability. - Shabazisspecial"

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My tanks are now at 7k+ making my ss alot more respectable.
I went for a speed build making my ss 2.8 sec cast.
I got better at predicting boss pattern,especially twintania and I can rely on my other healer to top them up before attack . In a pug I won't able to rely as much on them.
Its nearly always better to pre mitigate with stoneskin then it is to just time cure 2 . It reduces the chance of RNG instant double hit ko.
Full hp+stoneskin+adlo then timed cure2/physick/embrace is the ideal situation for boss tank killer attack.
If you it leave it too late, then stoneskin is a bad idea due to how the mitigation effect is very delayed and weaker "healing" then cure2

Very often you won't be able to do both stoneskin and cure2 . Or even a stoneskin. Garuda seems to vary her attacks and forces you to move before whirls so it is much harder to pre stoneskin the double whirl without swiftcast. Adloquium is much easier to put up. For Titan ex its much easier to pre stoneskin.

Since stone skin has a long cast time, You need to use it around 2 seconds before boss start to cast its tank killer move. If you then start cure 2 at 50-60% it should be well timed. You can only really use stoneskin effectively if you have memorized boss pattern. If you try to stoneskin as soon as boss starts using his tank killer move, you will either have no time to do a cure 2 or your stoneskin won't mitigate anything due to its ridiculous delayed effect.

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Originally Posted by Vrmillion

I heal, dps, and res as WHM all the time. As I said in my first post, throwing out Raises is the only time I go oom because I don't have the mana regeneration that Scholars do. Healing and DPSing at the same time barely moves my MP bar, and hasn't in a very long time. Oh, and I also have SCH at 50.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

You are only using single target heals in your mp usage . Mp3 in combat would be enough to let you cure/cure2/regen/freecure for it seems only 3minutes in your video? But cure/regen is not enough to heal fights and isn't why you bring a whm.

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^First of all, no, it was 4 and a half minutes of constant healing for WHM, and I used several Medica 2s and kept Regen up near 100%. Scholar ran oom in 3 minutes.

Moving on from your most recent falsity among many, I never said I dps in fights where I need to constantly AoE heal and burn mana. That would be literally retarded, so I'm not sure why you're implying that any healer would decide to DPS in a heavily damage intensive fight instead of stay on point for healing. I only used heals that I would be using in a situation where I deemed it safe to DPS. Please stop adding new things to the rules every time you post something.

Also, why *do* you bring a whm if not for cure/regen? Last I checked, no one ever thought it was a good idea to bring 2 SCH, but 2 WHM is done all the time. As someone pointed out, maybe you just don't know how to play WHM. And that's fine, I consider myself a pretty bad SCH. But all of this makes sense if you just don't know how to play one effectively, considering you use stoneskin in battle and think regen isn't good.

To prove the point about stoneskin, let's do some math. A warrior in my FC has 9,000 HP exactly in party, which is basically the highest amount an individual character can have unbuffed. An enhanced stoneskin is 1620 HP worth of shield. My cure 1 heals about 1050 on average, and about 1200+ on that particular warrior. Cure 1 also costs exactly half. So for the price of that 1620 stoneskin, I could have healed him for 2400-2500 instead. So, even in the absolute BEST case scenario for stoneskin, it still falls about 800hp or more short of being anywhere close to efficient. Casting stoneskin on anyone else will be even less effective in comparison. The only uses mid-combat for healers prolific enough to matter is helping people with Weakness or so people who will die to a big hit have some extra mitigation. And even then, the Stoneskin cast is better done by a paladin to save *himself* from death sentence. Or the other tank. Healers have better things to do and won't always be able to drop everything 3 seconds before a death sentence, especially if a fireball just landed or if they're trapped in a Conflag. Oh, and Cure 2 also heals more than 1620 on that warrior for the exact same MP/GCD, but in less time. But since healers always have time to idle, GCDs don't really matter that much.

TLDR; Stoneskin is a better skill in general on Paladins than it is on WHM, even though WHM has the trait, because Paladins don't have to worry about keeping everyone else alive AND shielding, and WHMs have far more efficient options. PLD can just shield themselves. If a WHM can know death sentence is coming, a paladin can Stoneskin himself just as easily. Our paladin does it all the time on Twintania, for both himself and the offtank, so inb4 someone saying it's impossible.

Bottom line: You clearly don't like WHM, and no one is making you play one. I love WHM. I prefer it over SCH. I still play SCH. I don't have a vendetta against SCH because I like WHM. Why do you have a vendetta against WHM? Better yet, why do you feel the need to attack the WHM and all who play the job on the forums?

2 things I want for WHM are..

AoE Stoneskin with a radius like protect, only available while out of combat, to make buffing less time consuming and less of a chore, especially after a wipe.
A 2-3 minute cooldown ability to make the next regen you cast on yourself also give you refresh so we can have another way to get mana back.

Neither are really needed per se, but they would be absolutely amazing to have. Quality of life changes, since all the top end currently available content can already be cleared with WHM's as they are. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dyssyd

A 2-3 minute cooldown ability to make the next regen you cast on yourself also give you refresh so we can have another way to get mana back.

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I think altering the Over cure proc would be better suited for this. Let's face it, overcure is useless because the odds that it procs at the same time I need to use cure III is astronomically low. Instead I think a complete change to the buff is needed so that I would WANT to cast cure III when I get it.

For instance, what if Cure III gave back a portion of HP healed as MP for each target hit? This way, even if I can only hit a single player with it, I have more incentive to utilize Over cure when it procs.

I like that ideas are being raised here, but I'm mildly against the overall theme of making everything easier. Free spells, more spells off the GCD, and better mp management all serve to reduce the thought that goes into using a given spell or not.

For example, putting regen off the GCD. Right now I often have to choose between (pre)casting cure or setting up a regen. If I put down a regen, that's a window of ~4.5 seconds before I can land a direct heal. Sometimes the tank gets smashed in those seconds and I really wish I had readied a cure 1 or cure 2 instead. But that's the decision I opted to make. Also... regen is cheap, but not free, and it's easy to waste mp putting it on people that don't need it.

If too many classes can manage their tp/mp too well, support spells become less useful, and costly spells become trivial. It sounds nice but it degenerates the whole teamwork aspect. If anything I would argue that WHM are in a good place and SCH/SMN are perhaps too well off.

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Originally Posted by nocks

lolwat

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Twin hits your tank with Death Sentence 6800~dmg, swipe and then plummet for several thousands more

Pre-Stoneskin + virus will keep him alive and give you the breathing room to top him back up

please go learn to play whm to its fullest before trying to tell others how to play

I've been trying to incorporate Stoneskin as much as I can before big hits to mitigate BIG DMG to a tank because mitigating DMG can save your tanks live or simply make your job that much easier

pro whm

How is your tank being hit for 6.8k damage? lol That wouldn't happen with CDs or virus on Twin when the tank says he has no CDs up.

It's still a nice safety net, though, but costs a crapton of MP.

Really, I'd be fine if WHM just got a shroud on a 60 second CD with another CD for the enmity reduction. Or: how about just make overhealing not generate enmity at all.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

How is your tank being hit for 6.8k damage? l

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Have you not experienced TT just one shotting paladin tanks from full hp? Warrior tanks also take dangerous amounts of damage too.

That's tank / party communication fail. Like he said virus rotated in with the Tanks CDs will stop that. Not saying stone skin is a bad idea though, since it's always nice to have a buffer.

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Originally Posted by Cligue

That's tank / party communication fail. Like he said virus rotated in with the Tanks CDs will stop that. Not saying stone skin is a bad idea though, since it's always nice to have a buffer.

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Better to play it safe with stoneskin. You can do both stoneskin and timed cure 2 if she allows you too. Adlo crit+stoneskin =tank takes almost no damage xD. Mp intensive but my bard does ballad during dive bomb phase.

Btw Ifrit ex and stoneskin, i have noticed half his attacks just go through it. Which makes it good for softening the tank damage spikes. Reducing the need for cure2.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

I'm mildly against the overall theme of making everything easier. Free spells, more spells off the GCD, and better mp management all serve to reduce the thought that goes into using a given spell or not.

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I would argue that this problem of opportunity costs is a liability to the raid.

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For example, putting regen off the GCD[...] Also... regen is cheap, but not free, and it's easy to waste mp putting it on people that don't need it.

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Which is why I think Regen needs to be reworked, since it appears to me to be less viable than it should be.

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If too many classes can manage their tp/mp too well, support spells become less useful, and costly spells become trivial[...] If anything I would argue that WHM are in a good place and SCH/SMN are perhaps too well off.

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It's often WHM soaking up Mage's Ballad while the TP classes roll their eyes because they won't be getting Army's Paean.

Regen isn't that cheap. Sure it is on paper mana for overall potency is good.
However since it needs quite few ticks to beat cure and costs more mana then cure to begin with. It can often be a waste .
Normally if someone takes damage they will be healed with cure+physick+embrace . which is 2650hp healing for only 133 of your mana. The sch can add more embrace to the target to top them to full.
For regen to actually be worth it mana wise it needs to tick 3-4 times out of 7. It will take 9-12 seconds. If you really wanted to save mana you could either just cure once and let the sch heal them or even just let the sch do all the work and top them up with physick +multiple embrace. If the damage is no way putting the target at immediate risk that regen will tick them to full safely, then the sch could even just top them to full for free...

Regen is a decent preemptive healing spell. But cure spam is very sustainable mana wise due to it procing free cure and its mana cost being close to our mp3.

Regen does works alot better with double whm though! They merge together to heal like 700 every 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Have you not experienced TT just one shotting paladin tanks from full hp? Warrior tanks also take dangerous amounts of damage too.

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They aren't one shot. They are auto attacked after they are hit by a high damage death sentence.

Please read the rest of the sentence and stop cherry picking. My question was: how are you so useless that you are letting your tank be one shot with tools like EFaE, virus, and stoneskin?

Our tanks haven't had to deal with that issue since our first clear a month ago when we were learning the fight.

Tanks don't get one shot now for me either. Because i use stone skin before they get death sentenced, they use their cooldowns quite well and their hp is much higher too.
Tank getting killed after DS can happen if i am not paying proper attention when my sch is trapped especially if my cds are down. As a whm my tools for death sentence are quite inferior to sch. I am whm main, I have done the as SCH tool both so i know the difference. Sch have it way easier then whm does. Not only does Sch not even need to time anything =/ .Their "stoneskin" is much quicker and half a heal which is ideal,since it lets them both top up and apply the shield at the same time. Their EFaE is shorter cooldown too and should have a lustrate for each death sentence to guarantee survival.
I don't go sch because my group doesn't like to move around during conflag phase and prefers me to heal through it lol . My sch says he wants to relax and not have to time eos aoe regen spell with me either.

Though both healers have tools that are enough for all fights. Aoe and single. I wouldn't mind an adjustment to bump up Sch's aoe healing a little bit and whm's tank healing and mana efficiency a bit. Something like a 200potency succor and an aoe heal attached to sacred soil. For whm benediction something like 2min cd 75% hp and PoM turning into 1min cd swiftmend ... basically a healing "fester" which heals target for full duration of regen on them and consumes the regen effect (25% to leave the regen intact!).

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Originally Posted by Hitome

They aren't one shot. They are auto attacked after they are hit by a high damage death sentence.

Our tanks haven't had to deal with that issue since our first clear a month ago when we were learning the fight.

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I am not controlling everyone's cooldown like puppets ,i am not barking orders at people and try harding about a fight we have beaten around 9 times i think it is? When we do Turn 5 every week we go in have a laugh, may wipes a few times due to error but we kill her after around 0-5 attempts. Our blm aren't even paying attention to death sentence rotation lol so they use their cooldowns at wrong times if at all lol >_>. People are talking and joking with others about things not even related to the fight too :D.
When some serious content comes then we may start to do the fight more seriously...