Fall back and regroup: time for crafting autoleveller?

The time it takes to do a single synth is horrible.

You should be allowed to choose a synth, and ahve it done automatically in a short time.

Im not saying being able to choose the maths for 300 synths and ahve it done automatically. but get rid of the dman minigame.

ITS POINTLESS AND A WASTE OF TIME.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I play good games and I don't sit in poor ones happy that no one else does.
This system is impotent and poor gaming.

That's what's wrong with ME, I don't know what's wrong with YOU.

Didn't even answer the question: have you used a memory controller?
I don't recognize your craft levels if you did. That's just me.

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my levels are actualy all 100% legit, i have had to physicaly push enter for every command ive done in this game
memory controlers are as good as botting as far as im concerned

I'd see no problems with this if the auto-system created only NQ items, and you were required to do the current systems minigame if you wanted an HQ.

Wtf is a memory controller, the turbo button on the gamepad?

To make crafting faster SE just has to reduce the "three" animations that every actions requests to one, and increase the progress of standard synthesis to 30-40%...

Haven't read the whole thread, but I recall the crafting excitement I had at launch. And what it turned into for me when I no longer factored into the server's economy.

I thank FFXIV for turning over to Netflix. Crafting became the time to watch Netflix. I setup my computer near the TV just to achieve this. And sometimes crafting distracted me from watching. Then crafting altered where we could chat better during the synth. But it was too late! I'm now a Netflix addict :)

[Additional comments withheld due to their capability of inducing unsexy cookie eating marathons. And the cookies aren't even tasty.]

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Originally Posted by Hezmana

I know this will be unpopular, but what I really think this game needs (as with most shite) is a good wipe.

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With every day that passes, I agree with this statement more and more.

So Peregrine, if SE turned around and banned all the cheaters, would you be surprised if you got banned along with them?

You're publicly advocating cheating, after all.

What I would like to see is improvements to the existing system, because I don't think a wipe and rework of the fundamentals will be any better significant improvements to what we have. There is lots that can be done to improve the crafting system in multiple ways.

One example:
Lets assume that you have a craft that requires 1 Buffalo strap, One Buffalo Leather, one Iron Plate and one... Lets say Cotton yarn.

Normally, starting at the bottom, you would need buff hides, formic acid, iron ore, and cotton bolls to get it all done, and you would end up with left over parts (extra straps, extra nuggets, extra yarn, etc.). No big deal. So add a feature that lets you go straight from base mats to finish product, at the expense of all those extra mats you would make in between.

Now, I just came up with that on the fly; I haven't given any thought to whether or not it would ultimately be feasible or hurt the economy more than it would help. But I'm using it to illustrate that you can in fact make changes to the existing system that cut down on time, inventory, and (some) of the surplus by not creating it in the first place, and still implement changes that fundamentally alter the way the game is played without totally scrapping what we have.

It seems that SE has finally admitted that crafters/gatherers are in fact just there to support the fighters (read the QAs if you haven't yet). That being the case, I still suspect that they will (eventually) give crafting/gathering an overhaul. I don't expect a fundamental rewrite of the system; but I do expect we will see many ways in which crafting is streamlined.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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Peregrine, you have no way to prove anyone is botting via this method. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, though I question how widespread you would have us believe it is, and you certainly have no idea who is or isn't doing it. You have absolutely no way to know that. If they are at their computer, all you have is your belief they are using this memory controller. That's it. No facts. No proof. Nothing. Are you really going to tell me that your belief is based on something so simple as they are sitting in one place crafting for hours?

Also, consider this. If they are physically present at that computer the entire time they are doing this, their leveling is going no faster than it would if they were pushing that button themselves. Now, do not misconstrue this statement to mean I am defending anyone who does this. I'm not. But let's be realistic here. Either they are going to be stepping away to get an unfair advantage, and that time away is enough to get caught should people actually report this behavior in the correct manner for investigation, or they aren't leaving at all and are leveling no faster than anyone else who sits in front of their computer for the same period of time legitimately pressing buttons.

this is just a bad idea. what MMO doesn't have an action however simple or complex it may be to level up a rank/skill/gear etc. what is what MMO's are, you start at some sort of beginning point and you progress. Kinda sounds like you are bored with the game, and you have valid reasons to be, but installing a mindless SP gaining system is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Peregrine, you have no way to prove anyone is botting via this method. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, though I question how widespread you would have us believe it is, and you certainly have no idea who is or isn't doing it. You have absolutely no way to know that. If they are at their computer, all you have is your belief they are using this memory controller. That's it. No facts. No proof. Nothing. Are you really going to tell me that your belief is based on something so simple as they are sitting in one place crafting for hours?

Also, consider this. If they are physically present at that computer the entire time they are doing this, their leveling is going no faster than it would if they were pushing that button themselves. Now, do not misconstrue this statement to mean I am defending anyone who does this. I'm not. But let's be realistic here. Either they are going to be stepping away to get an unfair advantage, and that time away is enough to get caught should people actually report this behavior in the correct manner for investigation, or they aren't leaving at all and are leveling no faster than anyone else who sits in front of their computer for the same period of time legitimately pressing buttons.

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You all and your self-righteous defense mechanisms.
Of course I can prove you're a memory controller. That phase of entering enough times to guarantee your success is what gives you away. It makes you look like you have no clue what you're doing after certain synths that finish before your controller expects to.

You all fail to understand that everything you do or don't do as a human is forseeable and accountable, AND that everything an automated process does to try to approximate that behavior is imperfect at it and therefore also forseeable and accountable.

All this WOE IS ME WHAT CAN BE DONE??? AHHHH AHHHHH....

Simple, really. You can do a lot if you just stop being so helpless.

A human who starts a race faster than humans can react to a gun is disqualified, even if they started the race after the gun went off. This is because human actions are forseeable and accountable. It is you who argues BUT HOW CAN YOU TELLLLLLL...well quite easily. Just think about it methodically. If your reaction time is quicker than the neural process to hear a gunshot and then apply pressure to your feet, you didn't react at all. You false started.

How do you know the reaction time of a human? Simple. You test humans.

Humans do things no automations do. Automations do things no humans do. Even if an automation tries to randomize its actions, it randomizes it in such a way that no human would. And all these things are mathematically quantifiable.

It's just all voodoo and mystery to many of you because it's overwhelming to think about.

Orrrrr you don't want anyone to think about it maybe.

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

this is just a bad idea. what MMO doesn't have an action however simple or complex it may be to level up a rank/skill/gear etc. what is what MMO's are, you start at some sort of beginning point and you progress. Kinda sounds like you are bored with the game, and you have valid reasons to be, but installing a mindless SP gaining system is not the answer.

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Might want to go play another MMO. Several have this system. It doesn't even theoretically make progression faster. It shunts a lot of the time it takes to craft to gathering materials, like in FFXI.

Which is a superior system to this, because gathering materials is funner than spamming enter on crafting. I'd rather gather mats, then blow by crafting levels with them. Much better sense of accomplishment, even if it took me forever to afford those mats.

FFXI's system is just better than this one's. Here, materials are worthless, but the crafting grind is automated mindless. There, materials are king, and you can blow by crafting levels.

Automation is superior to this system. It keeps mindless players and cheaters from dominating. It's more entertaining. It actually makes crafting progression more rewarding as you can see BANG BANG BANG all that hard work is acutely paying off.

This system is better.

You have no proof of anything. Come back when you actually have this quantifiable data you are talking about and then we can have a real discussion. Watching someone press standard the entire way through a synth doesn't prove botting, it just proves the system is too easy.

Also, I think it is funny that any time someone disagrees with you, you either outright state or imply they must be doing whatever current wild accusation you are posting about. I don't agree with you, therefore I must be a botter right? Gee, I've only been playing this game since release. I must be the worlds worst botter, not just someone poking holes in your factless accusations. Naturally.

It is really sad that you behave this way because it is self-defeating. You're only hurting your own cause because it just makes you look like a paranoid rumor monger.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

You have no proof of anything. Come back when you actually have this quantifiable data you are talking about and then we can have a real discussion. Watching someone press standard the entire way through a synth doesn't prove botting, it just proves the system is too easy.

Also, I think it is funny that any time someone disagrees with you, you either outright state or imply they must be doing whatever current wild accusation you are posting about. I don't agree with you, therefore I must be a botter right? Gee, I've only been playing this game since release. I must be the worlds worst botter, not just someone poking holes in your factless accusations. Naturally.

It is really sad that you behave this way because it is self-defeating. You're only hurting your own cause because it just makes you look like a paranoid rumor monger.

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It doesnt matter if he can prove it. The point is if you have a progression system that is so easy to automate, its going to cause problems. Screw all the easy leveling people, make crafting complex and challenging for sp gain, there really is only two solutions, give up and make leveling super easy or make it very difficult to bot, aka very difficult to do without paying attention. pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by Physic

It doesnt matter if he can prove it. The point is if you have a progression system that is so easy to automate, its going to cause problems. Screw all the easy leveling people, make crafting complex and challenging for sp gain, there really is only two solutions, give up and make leveling super easy or make it very difficult to bot, aka very difficult to do without paying attention. pick your poison.

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I agree with you the system is too easy. I would advocate making it more complex over fully automated.

A system that allows players to just select the number of crafts they would like to perform and it is carried out automatically? No, thank you. As others have mentioned, this basically defines a bot, but this isn't the thread to talk about that. The first thing that came to my mind, besides how players seem to want the game to play for them, is that this is extremely unfair to the other classes. If the crafters are going to auto-rank, then SE might as well implement a system so that after I decide what leves I want to do, my character goes out and fights the mobs without any direction from me. I might as well not have any involvement in this game at all. Again, as other have stated before me, they can alter and expand the current crafting feature.

As always, the short answer is no.

The problem with crafting is that about 47% of the experience going 1-50 is all done on the same synth.

Once you hit 40, which is approx. 53% of the way to 50 you pick out your L50 synth and thats what you do all the way up. If there was some L51-60 synths things would be different but as it stands right now doing the same synth 2500+ times in a row is just tedious and has no effect on teaching you how to do synths. Its basically 60ish hours of hitting enter (and some abilities when you are lower 40s). I felt a sense of accomplishment reaching 50 but that was mostly a "thank god" feeling because my hand hurt from hitting the enter key.

I would suggest that each synth gets increased mat cost, and proportionally increased SP. However this is detrimental to creating HQs since right now, for a HQ all you do is spam the synth until it happens basically. For example if I suggested that a L50 synth at L40 currently gives ~800 SP for 20 shards and 4-5 mats. If we increased it to 75 shards and 15 mats for ~2000 a synth it would be great for leveling but terrible to gather that many items to try for HQs.

Theres some balance to be made but doing half of your SP on one item to get to 50 is just ridiculous. I hope they change it out of how its currently done someway, if that someway is for the better.

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Originally Posted by Xandre

A system that allows players to just select the number of crafts they would like to perform and it is carried out automatically? No, thank you. As others have mentioned, this basically defines a bot, but this isn't the thread to talk about that. The first thing that came to my mind, besides how players seem to want the game to play for them, is that this is extremely unfair to the other classes. If the crafters are going to auto-rank, then SE might as well implement a system so that after I decide what leves I want to do, my character goes out and fights the mobs without any direction from me. I might as well not have any involvement in this game at all. Again, as other have stated before me, they can alter and expand the current crafting feature.

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Crafting is crafting. Battling is battling. Logic fails. Crafting requires materials. Battling doesn't. Crafting requires crystals. Battling doesn't. No need for crafters to pay with TIME when they can pay with MONEY. Battlers pay with time. Crafters should pay with money. In the end it's all the same, but it's a different same.

People are going to whine if you make 2500 synths of crafting not netflixable because you have to now pay attention to every one of them.

To make it impossible for bots, you have to make it annoying for players.

Go the other route and do yourselves a favor. Make it all automated. You think it will result in everyone having a R50 craft, but it won't. You probably won't be able to afford to take GSM to 50, thus it'll take you two months of mining. And after that, to 75, to 100...oh it'll stop you from progressing no matter how fast you COULD progress.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

No need for crafters to pay with TIME when they can pay with MONEY. Battlers pay with time. Crafters should pay with money.

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That would be a merchant, not a crafter.

No, that would be a crafter. A crafter pays with money for what they do. Whether they pay a supplier or they pay themselves, they pay someone. No need for time to be as much of a factor as it is in battling.

Can i just say as a new player, I really dont see what the big deal would be. I know that ppl are very territorial about crafting around here and I respect that! But honestly, why cant the challenge come from HQing items and not necessarily grinding useless junk?Why cant it be more about products than ranks? For example: I can get pearls from oysters or i can make sand. So maybe if the system was such that you could aim for different results from the same materials (using the already-in-place rapid and bold - not sure why they dont expand on those ideas..?). maybe even have an 'Attempt HQ' choice that opens a much more challenging minigame. So then you could plow through 3 stacks of oysters with minimal sp and no chance of HQ while you chat, read Lodestone posts, or watch FLCL on Netflix, whatever. BUT if you wanted to focus and face an actual challenge, go for the pearls. then your success depends on your synth method and/or order of execution. this way it would require some actual skill and would be somewhat bot-proof (as each time you synth you'd have to stay on top of the mats each step of the way, any wrong moves and you fail). That's where we could separate the bots from the pros. Let everyone grind mindlessly to 50, but only the best get the pearls! I mean would any of you care that theres a ton of r50's when you are the only one who can make Samurai Helmet+3 (or whatever - lol).

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If the crafters are going to auto-rank, then SE might as well implement a system so that after I decide what leves I want to do, my character goes out and fights the mobs without any direction from me.

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But grinding with battle classes can actually be fun, you can experiment with your action bar setup, try out debuffs and status effects with attack combos, all sorts of stuff! but crafting, you just sit there wondering when you get to make something useful (at least i do, woe is the culinarian!). Beyond having at least one working finger, I really dont see what the accomplishment is in hitting an Enter button 100,000+ times. Again no disrespect to those of you @50, I admire your persistence! Im directing that more at SE than anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Might want to go play another MMO. Several have this system. It doesn't even theoretically make progression faster. It shunts a lot of the time it takes to craft to gathering materials, like in FFXI.

Which is a superior system to this, because gathering materials is funner than spamming enter on crafting. I'd rather gather mats, then blow by crafting levels with them. Much better sense of accomplishment, even if it took me forever to afford those mats.

FFXI's system is just better than this one's. Here, materials are worthless, but the crafting grind is automated mindless. There, materials are king, and you can blow by crafting levels.

Automation is superior to this system. It keeps mindless players and cheaters from dominating. It's more entertaining. It actually makes crafting progression more rewarding as you can see BANG BANG BANG all that hard work is acutely paying off.

This system is better.

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I like FFXI's system as well, but that is not what the OP has suggested. Making the crafting instantaneous is fine, but queuing up multiple crafts into one and just let a timer run out and poof you have your SP is just stupid. If they do that then FFXIV just turned into a glorified facebook game. And no, I don't need a new MMO, I actually like the system the way it is. I just disagree with the OP

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Make it fun....

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Yes please

There are some great points in this thread so we brought them up to Yoshida and he said he will look into making the crafting process easier. We want crafters to have fun analyzing the market, searching for demands and creating products for sale, rather than the crafting process in and of itself.

Not easier!!! More fun!!!

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Originally Posted by Naylia

Not easier!!! More fun!!!

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lets be honest
people will always complain that its not fun no matter how they change it

welp there it goes, crafting ezmode coming soon to theaters near you, guess it ll be a side thing now.

I agree :( ...but he didn't need to say easier. Why easier? I don't like that word being used with a game that is not hard.

Unless they are talking about rank adjusting synths so that component ranks fall near finished goods ranks. That would be easier and more fun. But I'd just love to see the mini game jazzed up.

sounds like hes saying crafters should be playing the market, not crafting en mass, so the process isnt that important, and will therefore be made ez mode. i hope by easy he means less monotonous, and not more monotonous. Not the direction i would have gone, but if its super easy/fast to level i guess bots wont matter as much

What will be the point of playing the market when everyone has every craft maxed out? All items will be flooded to the market and be worthless. No one will buy them because they can make them. Crafting is going to become something you do to support yourself rather than produce for other people. Glad I made hundreds of millions when it was good.

Should I even bother skilling up crafts any more? If it's going to be made easier it seems like wasted time. I've already stopped ranking gathering classes because it's going to be made easier. With all the content that is being put in the game becoming obsolete within days of a patch you're giving me less and less reasons to play.

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Originally Posted by Physic

welp there it goes, crafting ezmode coming soon to theaters near you, guess it ll be a side thing now.

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imho, that's how it should have been from the start.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

What will be the point of playing the market when everyone has every craft maxed out? All items will be flooded to the market and be worthless. No one will buy them because they can make them. Crafting is going to become something you do to support yourself rather than produce for other people. Glad I made hundreds of millions when it was good.

Should I even bother skilling up crafts any more? If it's going to be made easier it seems like wasted time. I've already stopped ranking gathering classes because it's going to be made easier. With all the content that is being put in the game becoming obsolete within days of a patch you're giving me less and less reasons to play.

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i guess it will be about items. maybe they will institute 1 class per person, sounds wack but looks like that is the direction they believe in.

It always was a side thing. I don't see any raids with 8 crafters to make the 1 ring of power.

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Originally Posted by Radaghast

It always was a side thing. I don't see any raids with 8 crafters to make the 1 ring of power.

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Yeah, but that would be sweet.

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Originally Posted by Radaghast

It always was a side thing. I don't see any raids with 8 crafters to make the 1 ring of power.

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used to be a side thing that took as long as leveling a battle class, had its own craft class quests, and gears, now it looks like it wont be anymore. oh well change of dev team means different plans, some people will be very happy if crafting becomes ezmode.

I dont think the developers or the community reps know what game we're playing, its like they play a much better and different game that has challenge and purpose.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There are some great points in this thread so we brought them up to Yoshida and he said he will look into making the crafting process easier. We want crafters to have fun analyzing the market, searching for demands and creating products for sale, rather than the crafting process in and of itself.

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Hi Rukkirii,

Thanks for bringing up this thread to Yoshida-san. :)

I would say, though, that unless by "easier" SE is going to make it an Auto-Leveller like Peregrine is talking about, then it's still not going to help the situation any. If SE makes it, say, 25% easier (less Elemental Destabilizations, or say it's 25% Faster to finish a synth), that still doesn't address any of the concerns on either side of this argument, because Bots still have an advantage and it only slightly eases the burden of real players.

I'm in favor of a Crafting System that's FUN and engaging, and not just about sitting in one spot and hitting "ENTER" 2,000 times to get a level.

I remember someone on FFXIV Core during Month 1 or 2, giving an example of making a fun Crafting Mini-Game where you had to Smelt the Ore Down in a Forge, then take it and start Hammering and Forming it, and then, another step to Polish and complete the synth. That activity sounds far more engaging and interesting than what we have now. Just a quick example.

If you could pass on our further reaction about wanting "FUN, not easy" that'd be great. :) Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Radaghast

It always was a side thing. I don't see any raids with 8 crafters to make the 1 ring of power.

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OMG! you just made the awesomest crafting suggestion ever!

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Originally Posted by Naylia

Not easier!!! More fun!!!

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Yes, please SE, we don't want crafting easier, please don't just make sp gains more or something like that.