Butcher's Block... worthless.

The increase in threat may also play a proactive role. With 2.2 a new set of coil challenges and assumed tier of gear will push dps and healers ahead of the tanks. They have one main goal to heal or dd a tank needs to survive and dd to build threat. This splits their stat allowance and as seen in other gear progession mmo's leaves tanks at a disadvantage in threat production.

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So... having your OT not hold back anymore and able to deal more damage without ripping aggro off you is a bad thing?

Also, aggro management isn't rocket science. Instead of pressing 1-2-3 before, you're going to be able to press 1-2-4, 1-2-5 and so on and so forth.

This changes NOTHING.

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Yea, the pld who was tanking with me last night could spam RoH the entire time and not rip hate off me on war (without me spamming BB Combo). He thought it was a bit insane, said he HAD to use provoke or he wasn't gonna take hate.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Yea, the pld who was tanking with me last night could spam RoH the entire time and not rip hate off me on war (without me spamming BB Combo). He thought it was a bit insane, said he HAD to use provoke or he wasn't gonna take hate.

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I'd like add Im not sure how much enmity modifier Steel Cyclone has but it seems to be a huge leap in threat compared to Overpower and Flash. It's prolly more effective to use Unchained and Overpower spam for AoE over time, But SC seems really good for AoE Snap threat.

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Originally Posted by AppleGrocer

Because DPS and healers scale better than us and our foundational role in a group as a tank is to... you know... tank the mobs.

It's like a house. (SNIP!)

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DPS and Healers did not scale better than us... We were just forced to put out Bonus attribute points into a stat that doesn't effect enmity at all. Where as Healers, and DPS are adding stat points into Mind/Int/Strength/Dexterity All of which directly effect their potency.

I guess, perhaps a better example of how I see this being an issue is this:
How about we remove all positional requirements from Dragoons, and make their combo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Repeat.
How about we make all Summoner DOT's last until the enemy dies?
How about we make Greased Lightning a permanent buff for Monks while removing their positional combos?
Why doesn't every single cure from a White Mage/Scholar just cost no MP?
Why should Black Mages need to use Umbral Ice just to keep casting Fire again?
How about we remove TP/MP Costs from all Bard abilities?

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I'd like add Im not sure how much enmity modifier Steel Cyclone has but it seems to be a huge leap in threat compared to Overpower and Flash. It's prolly more effective to use Unchained and Overpower spam for AoE over time, But SC seems really good for AoE Snap threat.

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It's not even nessecary. Overpower with Unchained accounts for nearly 2000 damage worth of Enmity in a single use... AND it deals enough damage to totally forego using SC in an AOE situation. After the 3nd Overpower, you literally will NEVER Lose threat, Unless the enemies are taken down to 5% of their HP by 1 single person....

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

I guess, perhaps a better example of how I see this being an issue is this:
How about we remove all positional requirements from Dragoons, and make their combo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Repeat.
How about we make all Summoner DOT's last until the enemy dies?
How about we make Greased Lightning a permanent buff for Monks while removing their positional combos?
Why doesn't every single cure from a White Mage/Scholar just cost no MP?
Why should Black Mages need to use Umbral Ice just to keep casting Fire again?
How about we remove TP/MP Costs from all Bard abilities?

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Thats a pretty drastic comparison. If SE Doubled our potency on all our attacks then maybe you could compare the 2.Last I check threat does nothing for you if your doing what your suppose to do in the first place. You still have to use your Enmity moves and Bad tanks will still stick out thru their action. What are we arguing about really ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

I guess, perhaps a better example of how I see this being an issue is this:
How about we remove all positional requirements from Dragoons, and make their combo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Repeat.
How about we make all Summoner DOT's last until the enemy dies?
How about we make Greased Lightning a permanent buff for Monks while removing their positional combos?
Why doesn't every single cure from a White Mage/Scholar just cost no MP?
Why should Black Mages need to use Umbral Ice just to keep casting Fire again?
How about we remove TP/MP Costs from all Bard abilities?

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You can't seriously believe these are apt comparisons. Even with the enmity boost, surely no one believes that Warrior became less complex to play in comparison to 2.0? If you do, I'm sorry but you don't understand where skill actually comes in to play in this game.

It's got nothing to do with enmity.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Fixed that for you. =P

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In order to be a bad tank, you would have to not know BASIC gameplay.
There is nothing skillful about using the same combo over and over and over.
In the case of WAR, 2 combos.

If you honestly believe this changes the required skill level at all, then you've never done anything more complicated in an MMO.

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

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Okay, in what way has the method of gaining enmity changed?
Did they change the combos needed to gain enmity? No.
All they did was increase the amount of enmity gained.
The gameplay itself didn't change, all that happened was the gameplay became more effective.

There was never any skill towards gaining enmity.
Heck there was nothing you could do once enmity was lost other than continue doing your combo as you did before.
There was no skill from the start, and it is wrong to suggest there is a loss of skill after the changes.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

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Moving my soda from the back of the fridge to the front might make it easier to get a drink tomorrow, but not in any meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

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Less complex for under geared tanks. Its hard to mess up enmity if your equally geared with your party members unless your really slow at pushing buttons or not using enmity rotations at all... Or if you have really fat fingers and cant hit right buttons :P

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Okay, in what way has the method of gaining enmity changed?
Did they change the combos needed to gain enmity? No.
All they did was increase the amount of enmity gained.
The gameplay itself didn't change, all that happened was the gameplay became more effective.

There was never any skill towards gaining enmity.
Heck there was nothing you could do once enmity was lost other than continue doing your combo as you did before.
There was no skill from the start, and it is wrong to suggest there is a loss of skill after the changes.

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I agree with what you are saying. That said, I know I, and I think other people do miss the enmity meta game that used to exist in MMOs. I don't think this so much related to the skill of the tank, however a bad one would be far more noticeable as people get face raped. There is no battle between healer/DD aggroe these days, and therefore less smart play. This also relates to loss of things like CC in pulls, and healer having to make smart decisions on single casts/AoEs. Further increasing our enmity just pushes forward face rolling along our keyboard. It is far more forgiving, and further closes the gap of bad/good tanks and their decision making.

Good tanks differ themselves from bad tanks beyond enmity generation.
Anyone can hold agro.
What makes a tank good, is how quickly they pick up adds, interrupts, silences, stuns, knowing the mechanics.
All of which has far greater consequences.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I agree with what you are saying. That said, I know I, and I think other people do miss the enmity meta game that used to exist in MMOs. I don't think this so much related to the skill of the tank, however a bad one would be far more noticeable as people get face raped. There is no battle between healer/DD aggroe these days, and therefore less smart play. This also relates to loss of things like CC in pulls, and healer having to make smart decisions on single casts/AoEs. Further increasing our enmity just pushes forward face rolling along our keyboard. It is far more forgiving, and further closes the gap of bad/good tanks and their decision making.

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I hear you. However, I just don't think that dynamic was ever really a part of this game, even before 2.1.

I also think a lot of those issues are more a result of poor encounter design rather than anything to do with enmity generation. i.e. no trash pack is life threatening for a well-played tank, so there's no good reason to use CC, healers don't really have any significant decisions to make, etc.

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Originally Posted by KokuRyuha

still...have you ever lost aggro in 2.0? (don't count rare occasion when someone (bardXD) pulls before you can do anything) I think the answer is no. so what changes?

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I had the luxury of playing with +1 MNK, SMN, BLM with ilvl50-55 gear, where simply smashing Overpower will get aggro taken from you in a hurry. I continued to gear this way for spiritbonding. Poor execution will result in you losing aggro, and the margin of error was pretty damn small. To claim that enmity was lolnp before and no different now is pretty godsdamned disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

That's a horrible analogy. Just because square tweaked Defiance and Shield oath doesnt mean everyone will start facerolling Turn 5 Now.

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We were talking about enmity, and yes, people are facerolling enmity for everything now. It is an exact analogy. There is no way you can lose aggro without completely failing to touch a mob.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Theres more to End Game Raiding than just holding threat.

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Red herring. "But there's other stuff!" doesn't justify trivialization of enmity, just as the existence of PLD would not justify the outright deletion of WAR. Well, unless you're arguing that all tank players are too stupid to deal with enmity while tanking, in which case I question your good sense.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

The Changes made it easier for a Tanks who are equally Geared or Outgeared their party members. Still possible to pull threat off of undergeared tank and anything Pre-50.

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Enmity is easier while leveling due to the gear sync and early access to high-enmity abilities (whereas DPS are still getting their primary attacks up to level 50), not to mention that it isn't (and never was) possible to pull aggro off a tank pre-50. There is also a base strength modifier unaffected by weapon damage which prevents anything but the most extreme undergearing from being a problem.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

If you ask me, the change made tanking more Future Proof, because as the DPS margin continues to grow between tanks and pure DPS, it would become a problem since PLD and WAR both sacrifice % of their Damage. This was a re-evaluation of how fast DPS threat scaled.

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That would be a misunderstanding of enmity in general. Potency does not scale differently and primary stats do not scale differently as you level. Tanks will continue to have a large enmity-potency lead, and the primary stats on armors and weapons mean that tanks always have a strength value proportional to DPS.

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Originally Posted by AppleGrocer

Good tanks pick up adds quickly and efficiently. Good tanks keep the appropriate buffs/debuffs up at all times.

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Except that both of these were beholden to the enmity subgame that was mutilated by 2.1. You needed room to put down enough enmity that you could get Maim up, and if you didn't have enough of a cushion, you'd be chasing after the mobs that decided the DoT-spamming SMN looked tasty while you were smacking something else. If you were collecting adds, you had to build enmity on those adds and gather others at the same time, while those others would immediately head for the healer or other DPS. People view enmity as trivial in 2.0 when they were overgeared with 150 hours of practice grabbing every opponent and putting exactly the right amount of enmity on each to hold it, just like people who talk about how loleasy Twintania is when it was previously thought nearly impossible.

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Originally Posted by AppleGrocer

Because DPS and healers scale better than us

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Can stop right there, because they don't.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

What makes a tank good, is how quickly they pick up adds, interrupts, silences, stuns, knowing the mechanics.

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Trololo interrupts, because WAR totally can interrupt more than a DPS. And man, knowing game mechanics, like knowing how to sit in one spot for the entirety of Titan HM and never moving an inch? SO PRO.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Trololo interrupts, because WAR totally can interrupt more than a DPS. And man, knowing game mechanics, like knowing how to sit in one spot for the entirety of Titan HM and never moving an inch? SO PRO.

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And there is so much skill hitting the same 3 buttons in sequence over and over again right?
Or hitting Overpower over and over for AOE agro right?
Or Flash?

To even suggest that there was any skill in gaining enmity is completely false.
Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
This is a case of complaining for the sake of complaining.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
DPS were the ones that had to manage it

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If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank. Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

After playing with the new emnity now for a good day I have a few observations:

I used BB only as an opening combo for extra threat at the start of a fight with unchained and berserker. After that SP>SE>SP>SE repeat. I noticed SE would fall off if I tried to weave some BB in between. I honestly didnt need it on Ultima EX or any of the new dungeons. I only used it as an opener (and for picking up certain adds like in Garuda EX)

It has its purpose. I'm not unhappy, I would have preferred SE debuff to last 20 seconds the same as SP, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank.

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So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

Sorry but, enmity generation is something a tank does, its not something they manage.
They don't raise, lower or siphon.
They mash their combos/AOE ability and generate it.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

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Pardon but in EQ, enmity was not listed in any of a DPS' abilities, but what do you know, DPS had to help manage threat.
This was the same in WoW's early days of tanking, where management of agro was really beyond the tank.

It fell down to the DPS to hold back and not generate too much enmity.
I fail to see why you are so intent on arguing the matter.


Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

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Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

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Cool, and I did too, and was playing with a Bard, a BLM and WHM and my experience was entirely the opposite. Agro was a struggle to maintain unless they intentionally throttled their DPS.

If your DPS couldn't pull agro, its because they are bad, or they pitied you and held back.

The bat swings both ways.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

People view enmity as trivial in 2.0 when they were overgeared with 150 hours of practice grabbing every opponent and putting exactly the right amount of enmity on each to hold it, just like people who talk about how loleasy Twintania is when it was previously thought nearly impossible.

---

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

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Which is it?

Holding threat on a single target was never a 'skill' thing. Tanking one thing in general is rarely all that challenging. Holding threat on multiple enemies if it required more than just spamming an aoe move like Flash/Overpower did take some amount of skill, as evidenced by the many people being less able to do so than others while juggling all the other things a tank should be doing.

But we got the spam route buffed, so dungeons will continue to be 'mindlessly aoe all the things' unless something is actually dangerous enough to warrant killing it before everything else. Which seems doubtful, because then people would whine that not everyone has the same CC options available because everyone has to be equal at times. -.-

Mindless aoe is the most boring thing to do in MMOs.

I honestly don't see the problem.

Is tanking any less fun because of these changes? Nothing has really changed for Paladin, and Warrior now has more buffs to keep an eye on and more combos to commit to muscle memory. If your DPS/Healer roles had learnt to pay attention to their enmity meter in 2.0 you never had any threat issues then - now they can open up a bit more without having to baby the tank's threat generation as much.

Basically; "I dislike the new synergy and pacing of combat because certain meta-game aspects required everyone to sit and watch a meter to pace themselves off my threat generation and now they don't need to watch that meter as much because I can generate threat more quickly than before." To which I just don't really have anything to say but.. uh sorry I guess? :/

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Cool, and I did too, and was playing with a Bard, a BLM and WHM and my experience was entirely the opposite. Agro was a struggle to maintain unless they intentionally throttled their DPS.

If your DPS couldn't pull agro, its because they are bad, or they pitied you and held back.

The bat swings both ways.

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This is a pretty funny argument, because it's easy to do the math to show that you have more than enough enmity to hold aggro despite gear discrepancies. Forget Defiance and everything else, BB is 2150 enmity-potency per 7.5s, 2400 including autoattacks. A relic+1 DRG FT combo was an effective 1100 enmity-potency per 7.5s with HT and Disembowel up. Now tell me, do you really think the DRG is doing 120% more damage per potency? Because he isn't. Valk's heuristic predicts about 78% going from 38 WD and 300 strength to 46 WD and 500 strength. You have a 20% lead over your +1 DPS from the rawest of fresh-50 AF gear.

Yes, actual WAR enmity generation and actual DRG damage are both higher than that example, but the ratio is actually pretty similar. You would have to leverage that lead to generate AoE enmity at the same time, using Berserk to account for the damage buffs other players may use. If you just spammed Overpower, you would lose aggro. That isn't remotely true anymore. You can basically hold aggro against the strongest DPS in a bikini with a Weathered War Axe at this point.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

Which is it?

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There's nothing contradictory there. 2.0 enmity was not trivial, but you could always manage to account for gear discrepancy. Failing to pay attention, especially against combinations like SMN and MNK, would have you lose aggro unless you're highly geared. If you ever lost aggro, it was your fault, but the game didn't just hand it to you. In 2.1, the game hands it to you on a silver platter. Overpower three times, go have a picnic somewhere because it's a done deal. Enemies are dead before DPS can catch up to your enmity spike.

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Originally Posted by Vortok

But we got the spam route buffed, so dungeons will continue to be 'mindlessly aoe all the things'

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QFT.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.

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For PLD? No, there's very little they decide. That's the point. PLD is supposed to be an easier tank to play because some people want that. They don't want to worry about de-buffs, different combos, or ability synergy. They just want to worry about controlling their enmity on multiple targets (single target shouldn't be an issue), using their buffs to stay alive and not standing in the fire.

WAR? There was a lot they could do. Unchained for more threat or Inner Beast for mitigation? Do I pick a combo that does the most enmity, the most damage, does the most mitigation (include SP in 2.1)? How soon do I have enough threat to work in a maim combo which boosts my BB even further? During AoE threat, can I work in a maim combo to boost my damage and refresh wrath stacks? During AoE threat, how soon could I swap to target cycling to conserve TP?

As a WAR, there was a lot that could go into your decisions on how you manage damage vs. mitigation vs. threat. Now, there is no decision, it's just derp derp derp all the way home.


Before, you needed to maintain your threat to stay above DPS. Now you can open up with damage buffs and high threat moves (WAR or PLD) and and just go make a sandwich while the rest of the team finishes the fight.

I don't understand the scaling argument. I have never seen any math that actually suggests that DPS enmity scales faster than Tank enmity.

And it doesn't really pass the smell test either. A PLD just doing his Rage of Halone combo generates 683 potency of enmity per GCD without using any off GCD abilities, fight or flight or shield oath. How many damage classes can maintain that kind of potency per attack?

And that's just the baseline threat. Throw in damage buffs (fight or flight, unchained, berserk), off GCD abilities and the ~15-20% boost that old shield oath/defiance used to supply and I don't see how any of the DPS classes can scale faster. Even with DPS gaining more damage stats on their accessories (if you don't include crafted gear), I find it difficult they will be able to keep pace with that kind of threat multiplier.

It doesn't even mesh well with most of the arguments in this thread. If enmity "wasn't a problem in 2.0" if you were well geared, then obviously being at the top level of Tank gear meant you could hold threat against the top level of DPS gear. Which tells me that scaling wasn't an issue here either.

Oh no my Threat is strong..... I now have more time to think, use my other abilities, and keep my debuffs up instead of 123123123. I never had threat issues before but now my threat issues just got smaller. Woe is me, im so lost.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

This is a pretty funny argument, because it's easy to do the math to show that you have more than enough enmity to hold aggro despite gear discrepancies. Forget Defiance and everything else, BB is 2150 enmity-potency per 7.5s, 2400 including autoattacks. A relic+1 DRG FT combo was an effective 1100 enmity-potency per 7.5s with HT and Disembowel up. Now tell me, do you really think the DRG is doing 120% more damage per potency? Because he isn't. Valk's heuristic predicts about 78% going from 38 WD and 300 strength to 46 WD and 500 strength. You have a 20% lead over your +1 DPS from the rawest of fresh-50 AF gear.

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Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.
I have not seen anyone manage to maintain agro in practice when the DPS chooses to unload immediately on the spot.
Not without the DPS having to use abilities that lower their agro generation.
Furthermore, there have been cases where people stated that at the upper ends of gar, DPS does get closer and closer to pulling agro due to the way gear is oriented.
DPS scales in a linear fashion, if you have a comfortable lead at the start when equally geared, there isn't a reason for it to suddenly shift once you have geared up fully.

Now mind you, this is assuming pre-shield oath buffs.
Heck let us assume that I am incorrect and you can use an ilvl55 tank to hold threat off of a ilvl90 BLM/DRG/BRD/MNK.
That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.
You moved your soda from the back of the fridge to the front.
So why complain?

I am sure with the current buffs you can hold threat using ilvl55 more comfortably this round.
In the past?
Never worked out that way in practice, and unfortunately, no one really cared to check.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

You can basically hold aggro against the strongest DPS in a bikini with a Weathered War Axe at this point.

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Now you're just being silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

QFT.

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Except that they were a mindless AOE all the things ANYWAY when you had equal gear.
Heck there was never a reason to fear anything during a WP run unless a Paladin/WAR ran out of mana for utilizing flash/overpower spam.

It was mindless in the past BEFORE tthe buffs, to suggest it is mindless NOW with the buffs is entirely silly.
Seriously get over yourselves, you guys act as if enmity was something skillfully managed in the past, when it wasn't.
It never was.


Before: Tank never lost agro
After: Tank never lost agro.

So what are you complaining about outside of it being easier to maintain agro...when you were ALREADY maintaining agro to begin with.

If a tank did 10k enmity a second.
Then they buffed it to 20k enmity a second, but DPS did only 1k enmity in the past and now, then there is literally a net gain of 0.
You literally gained nothing besides a larger buffer.

And the game doesn't care.
As long as you have at least 1 point more enmity than the 2nd guy, you keep agro.


Tanking was mindless in the past.
Its still mindless now.



@Giantbane: BB>BB>SE provides the same amount of agro as the RoH combo spam. There was never a decision of "should I use Unchained for more threat or INner beast for heals."

It was always "Hey is it worth using Unchained for the extra damage?"
Enmity wasn't an issue in the past.
This doesn't change anything. ANd really, the complaints are for the sake of complaining and not because there is a reason to complain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Oh no my Threat is strong..... I now have more time to think, use my other abilities, and keep my debuffs up instead of 123123123. I never had threat issues before but now my threat issues just got smaller. Woe is me, im so lost.

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You had those things before. You just needed to use your abilities properly or understand the dynamics of a fight to know when you were going to have a threat cushion and when it was safe to work in extra abilities. Now it's pretty much always safe. There is no "work in". It dumbs it down. It was unnecessary and doesn't add anything to the game. It only diminishes it by trivializing the enmity sub game.

If you wanted more time to think, play your PLD. You have it at 50, why dumb the game down because otherwise you'd be too inept to play WAR?

It was always safe to work in extra abilities Giantsbane.
BB>BB>SE provided the same cushion as RoH>RoH>RoH.


EQ had actual enmity management.
Not sure anyone remembers that game.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

It was always safe to work in extra abilities Giantsbane.
BB>BB>SE provided the same cushion as RoH>RoH>RoH.


EQ had actual enmity management.
Not sure anyone remembers that game.

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BB>SE (fracture on demand) provided more damage at the cost of less threat. If you stuck to BB>BB>SE if you had built up a significant threat cushion you were not playing as well as you could have.

2.1 added the promise of more flexibility when you built up a threat cushion with the addition of the 3rd combo as a useful tool in our toolbelt. But there is no build up anymore. You just have that threat cushion so do whatever you want. It's sort of silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Except that they were a mindless AOE all the things ANYWAY when you had equal gear.
Heck there was never a reason to fear anything during a WP run unless a Paladin/WAR ran out of mana for utilizing flash/overpower spam.

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Yes, and now you never have a reason to fear anything at all. Period. TP/Mana management was part of the challenge and fun of a speed run. Since you don't need as much to hold threat, that is now diminished/trivialized/more mindless than it was.

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It was mindless in the past BEFORE tthe buffs, to suggest it is mindless NOW with the buffs is entirely silly.
Seriously get over yourselves, you guys act as if enmity was something skillfully managed in the past, when it wasn't.
It never was.


Before: Tank never lost agro
After: Tank never lost agro.

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As long as your group was organized, it wasn't *that* hard unless you were skimping on TP/Mana in AoE situations.. If your group was playing dumb and splitting DPS targets, DPS was splitting between single target and AoE or your healer was spamming medica and overhealing for no good reason, then you'd have an agro problem. There was some incentive to play together properly. Enmity was a group effort.

It wasn't crazy difficult or skillful, but it was *something* you'd at least have to pay attention to in addition to all the other stuff that might go on in a fight. Now that aspect is almost entirely removed.

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@Giantbane: BB>BB>SE provides the same amount of agro as the RoH combo spam. There was never a decision of "should I use Unchained for more threat or INner beast for heals."

It was always "Hey is it worth using Unchained for the extra damage?"
Enmity wasn't an issue in the past.
This doesn't change anything. ANd really, the complaints are for the sake of complaining and not because there is a reason to complain.

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See above about BB>BB>SE vs. BB>SE, there was good reason to build yourself a threat cushion via Unchained + Berserk + Inner Beast. And if you could work it, you'd time it so you had SE and Maim up and was landed BB right after you buffed with Berserk to really get the most out of it. There would have been even *better* reason to build that threat cushion with 2.1 since you have a whole other non-threat option to work with.

And really, arguing that nothing has changed is just for the sake of argument and not because nothing has changed.

Fracture could be used every 30 seconds with little loss to your enmity.
The only real issue with Fracture is that its expensive.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.

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They are not different. The deviation by job is to the tune of 1-2% and may well be a flat additive factor. All physical jobs, including tanks, ranged, and melee DPS, have the same damage formula. How you've missed this fact in the past 6 months is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.

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So nothing at all would change if you made Twintania die in one hit when geared players attack it, because lol they could do it anyway? Hell, you seem to begrudge the act of even playing the game; why don't we just hand you the rewards and send you on your merry little way?

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Originally Posted by Leiron

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It just feels silly that I can literally auto-attack half or more of the time and still hold threat. If it's hard to understand how that makes tanking less exciting for many, we have a very different idea of what tanking ought to feel like.

When I started tanking I was often an Ifrit axe vs. relic +1's. I most certainly did use Unchained for threat to deal with their CDs. And I enjoyed inching out what I can, knowing when I could mitigate (just as there are some times when you couldn't afford to flash because an RoH needed to go off before that relic+1's Full Thrust), and that my dps buffs were usable for my recovery via Inner Beast.

Moreover, if tanking was boring before and is still boring now, isn't that too a failure? Even when practically carrying a taunt-aura, we still can't mitigate all that much, and the current IB's 20% of 6 seconds is commonly worth less total damage--short of Coil--than the former IB self-heal. The IB does no more than give us what Paladin's passive damage-taken reduction, and neither do we feel close to healers who make up for that difference (Shield Oath to Defiance's healing-taken increase) when they no longer play into our mechanics. I don't wholly miss the coupling of Wrath and healing-taken, but it made us attentive, which then made the job more fun.

A lot of the changes seem to be for the better, sure, but the job does not feel as fun as it was (aside, most largely in my opinion, the fact that we can actually hold AoE threat effectively with Steel Cyclone, whereas we were pretty well capped around 3 enemies we could hold with single-target attacks before against a better geared BLM, etc).

I'm not sure why you'd guys wouldn't even use BB combo. If the tank has no need for Storm Path debuff, BB combo does more damage. Offtank will almost always use SE>BB Combo whereas MT will use SE>SP Combo. With the current changes to Enmity I don't even need to worry about Enmity outside of Tank Stance even if I used BB combo 50% of the time and with all CDs.

This just in: I pulled a boss off of the +1 (zenith lol) tank in his tanking stance on my drg. Just like I did before the patch. Guess what else. I've done it with more than one tank. The update changed very little.

Before I couldn't unload a full weight, fully-buffed combo five seconds into a fight... I still can't. I usually side with G when it comes to potency discussions, but omg are you way off on this one. Enmity isn't the melee's concern? Bullcrap. Bad tanks are still bad, good tanks are still good. Bad melee are still bad, good melee are still good. If you want to know what the update to enmity really did, it made a more noticeable disparity between good and bad; that's it.

Yup I used to hold agro like a champ with this update I can get far more creative with rotations and make roulette players say OMFG I love the war update

What's the issue? Now Warrior has more rotations to choose from, on top of being able to fight bosses effectively one on one and groups of mobs. Tanking has never been this fun on Warrior! Everything I do gives threat, especially Steel Cyclone spamming. BB used to the only thing I'd do, after Storms Eye Combo. Now I have other skills to play with, depending on the situation.