To people saying Lockouts will kill the game.

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Originally Posted by FMElan

I'm pretty sure most people understand that there's a lack of endgame content. That's why the lockouts are there, to string us along week-by-week until the devs have the chance to implement enough content to keep us all satisfied. And they seem to be off to a great start with 2.1, IMO.

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I would hope so. Now ill play the game or atleast keep my account because its only 8 bucks a month but after turn 5 on mondays...what gear wise is there to do for the next 4-5 months. Now im not saying they can do anything about it because i kind of feel like they have dug a hole, but when people just say lockouts dont = lack of content im like meh

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Originally Posted by Randalthor

5) My recommendation - Run CT as many times as you want per week but allow the player to loot one piece of gear PER JOB. If I loot a CNJ/WHM/SCH item, I can't loot on another one of that type of the next week, but I can still loot on a THM/SMN item if I wanted to. This removes the restriction slightly and lets you gear your alts at a moderate pace(which in my case is the point of CT since I am almost all ilvl90).

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Most likely 5 pieces of gear per class in CT: 5 pieces * 6 sets / 4 bosses = 7 or item in each loot pool.

So you want to be done with CT in 5 weeks?

I will agree the loot lock needs to be less restrictive, but it still needs to give the players something to do for 3 months. Let's call it 13/14 weeks, 30 pieces of gear / 14 weeks = just over 2/week. 2 items a week or 72h loot lockout would work just fine. You are asking for the content to not last until 2.2 by asking for loot lock per class.

As it stands, between XM primals, Myth tome increase, and CT you'll be able to gear up a single job in full i80+ (avg i85 or better) in 5 weeks. That's plenty fast.

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Originally Posted by Miburo

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This would be true if it weren't for the fact that...not everyone likes every single job in this game. those against it have admitted this. (Some do have all jobs capped.) you can't win with either choice. Don't kid yourself thinking people won't complain with or without the lock. No matter what they do someone will be here upset.

And besides if I hate other jobs but love only WHM, I would burn the hell put of Coil to gear up all day everyday baby. Hypothetically speaking of course..

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

And there isn't enough for you. That means there isn't enough for anybody, right?

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Except I never said that since I still have plenty to do (as you can see on my character's page). The thing is, I'm able to put myself in the shoes of those players with a lot more gaming time than me and understand why they are dissatisfied with the game. Something that most here don't really bother trying.

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Originally Posted by KerenRhys

Except I never said that since I still have plenty to do (as you can see on my character's page). The thing is, I'm able to put myself in the shoes of those players with a lot more gaming time than me and understand why they are dissatisfied with the game. Something that most here don't really bother trying.

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You did say that.

I can put myself in their shoes, too. But I can also see the big picture, and I can look at history and say with confidence that this game will be very different a year from now than it is today. So the lockouts don't bother me, because I don't see them as a permanent thing.

Vote with your wallet.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

This would be true if it weren't for the fact that...not everyone likes every single job in this game. those against it have admitted this. (Some do have all jobs capped.) you can't win with either choice. Don't kid yourself thinking people won't complain with or without the lock. No matter what they do someone will be here upset.

And besides if I hate other jobs but love only WHM, I would burn the hell put of Coil to gear up all day everyday baby. Hypothetically speaking of course..

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I know. The point I was making is that the same logic being used to defend lockouts can easily be applied to things like philosophy tomes and leveling. If you really like whm but can only get 5 levels a week then that would prolong the game for you and keep you from finishing everything and having nothing to do too. You can go level your other jobs 5 levels each if you want something to do for the rest of the week. Etc. The pro-lockout stance is just crappy because lockouts simply don't bring more enjoyment to the players, at all.

And you're right. I'm sure some people would complain that they have nothing to do if the lockouts were made less restrictive. But people are making the same complaint now. Difference would be that if the lockouts were less restrictive then people would have more freedom to play the aspects of the game they enjoy. If we could do coils every three days then people that enjoy coils would be able to do content they enjoy twice as much per week. If coils was given a loot lockout instead then people could help their friends progress, and people that simply enjoy the battles could join groups that need them. Potentially bettering the community by giving people more opportunities to help others and make friends.

So yes, people will be people and complain either way. But the stances are still far from equal.

There are two goals I see SE trying to achieve with the Lockout:

1) To temper against power creep and separation of players because of constant or hardcore play.

2) To tempt players to play other content and play with other players beyond simple self interest to build community.

This to me is evidenced by the lockouts and Duty Roulette. As well as how specifically the lockout for Crystal Tower is just for loot.



If I'm right in this goal, then perhaps a good method of compromise is to attach some sort of bypass to the lesser content that allows players to rejoin this content out-of-lockout by helping other players who are behind them.

Say, earn tokens that amount to an additional run in coil, by going back and completing all 4 sections of duty roulette. Gain an Extra Primal Extreme/Crystal Tower loot card by helping people through story who haven't completed it.

This would further incentivise getting players to help others by rewarding them.

Personally, I don't mind the Lockouts, as I'm not pushing endgame progress above other in-game distractions. And I find it an unhealthy habit to push so hard for vertical progression. One run a week is good, especially as endgame broadens in scope - as it means you're going to do multiple runs in a week anyways.

People say the Armory System doesn't support more than one class, but I beg to differ, especially if you use different methods to gear different classes.

Coil - Main Class.
Myth Tomes - Secondary.
Crystal Tower - Tertiary.

Then you can gear up pretty much most other classes at the same time with Darklight due to how easy it is to get Philo.

Your Primary and Secondary can both help with all content except for Coil (the only complete lockout we have). However, this is just my perspective.

lockouts on characters rather than class/jobs in a game that both allows, and even encourages you to play more than one class/job is stupid. Otherwise I have no problems with lockouts. Most games have them. But in those same games it's understood if you want to play another class you make another character and then are allowed the same lockouts as your main.

Cap myth, do coil, then EM Primals.

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Originally Posted by storm

lockouts on characters rather than class/jobs in a game that both allows, and even encourages you to play more than one class/job is stupid. Otherwise I have no problems with lockouts. Most games have them. But in those same games it's understood if you want to play another class you make another character and then are allowed the same lockouts as your main.

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Not talking about Coil's lockout on character. That forces you to pick and choose what you lot on with each run a week. I'm talking about prioritizing your gear choices for each piece of content that comes out, which will allow you to gear multiple classes, but in a ranking system similar to how the armor value is tiered, until such a time you choose to up the priority of one class to the higher tier loot.

Or they should just let people play how they want to play

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

Or they should just let people play how they want to play

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That would be highly stupid business sense.

Be honest, if people were allowed to play coil 'how they wanted'. They would have quit and moved on by now. There are a staggering amount of people with little to no self-control.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That would be highly stupid business sense.

Be honest, if people were allowed to play coil 'how they wanted'. They would have quit and moved on by now. There are a staggering amount of people with little to no self-control.

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Compulsives are going to get mad and frustrated with roadblocks and quit, anyway. There is no design that will accommodate them. So not letting your customers play how they want isn't going to fix that. It certainly irritates the heck out of those of us that have other activities and are being told to play a certain schedule by the company we pay to provide entertainment.

I get charged the same amount whether I cap or lockout or not- so they don't need to tell me how much I can or can't progress unless they are charging for specific content and plan to refund me when I don't cap/lockout.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Most likely 5 pieces of gear per class in CT: 5 pieces * 6 sets / 4 bosses = 7 or item in each loot pool.

So you want to be done with CT in 5 weeks?

I will agree the loot lock needs to be less restrictive, but it still needs to give the players something to do for 3 months. Let's call it 13/14 weeks, 30 pieces of gear / 14 weeks = just over 2/week. 2 items a week or 72h loot lockout would work just fine. You are asking for the content to not last until 2.2 by asking for loot lock per class.

As it stands, between XM primals, Myth tome increase, and CT you'll be able to gear up a single job in full i80+ (avg i85 or better) in 5 weeks. That's plenty fast.

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I don't understand your math. Are you saying that I would run CT over and over until I geared out all of my classes? If I did that, and could get it done in 5 weeks, fine. That is not the norm. We shouldn't be optimizing for the minority.

They're complaining? Working as intended.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Compulsives are going to get mad and frustrated with roadblocks and quit, anyway. There is no design that will accommodate them. So not letting your customers play how they want isn't going to fix that. It certainly irritates the heck out of those of us that have other activities and are being told to play a certain schedule by the company we pay to provide entertainment.

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What you pay for is a continually developing 'as-is' service, in which the onus on you is to decide whether or not the entertainment style is worth your payment. That's a hard fact that many forget.

You do not pay to make demands of the company to craft an entertainment exclusively for you, primarily because you are not the sole customer by which the entertainment is to be designed around.

I've already expressed my opinions in favor of the lockouts, with the standing feedback that people should be able to play coil without lockout. (Using the same loot lock as CT is using.) However out of those who express themselves on the forums, I am aware that my view is in the minority, and accept that. If they change it, that's their prerogative. If they change it, I'll gauge my entertainment value at that point.

However, I feel sufficient feedback has been expressed, and the answer has been provided. Typically I just tune out this sort of thing, but the idea of providing incentive to aid others NOT at the apex of endgame as part of getting access to endgame beyond the current lockouts was an idea I wanted to add to the table.

In my opinion, it's a fair compromise that helps balance player demands with developer concerns.

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Originally Posted by Randalthor

I don't understand your math. Are you saying that I would run CT over and over until I geared out all of my classes? If I did that, and could get it done in 5 weeks, fine. That is not the norm. We shouldn't be optimizing for the minority.

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Yes, that's what I am saying, and no from a business standpoint it is not fine. They need the content to last at least 3 months in order to hold peoples attention until 2.2. As I said above, 2 pieces of gear per week would be optimal and land them right at the sweet spot, assuming you want all 6 sets of gear. Most people don't, so they reduced it to 1/week which will last 5 weeks per gear set.

Even if there were i80 accessories included in CT, most people wouldn't go for them since you can get 1 i90 each week from XM Primals and 1 i90 each week from Myth.

It seems clear to me that they released this game too early, the leveling is way too fast and uninteresting and there isn't enough content to keep people busy.

Here we are just a few months in and people have mostly completed everything there is to do. Right there you have a problem. A few months in normal players should just now be hitting level 50.

The lockouts are first of all normal in themepark MMOs and secondly they exist as a bandaid for lack of content/easy content (see above) and as a way to keep players, flavor of the monthers (you know who you are) who would otherwise move on to another MMO, in the game.
Don't like this? Well maybe encourage MMO developers to make leveling more challenging and interesting. This GOGOGO!!!1 get to max level in a week, rush to endgame and then whine is rubbish and you're only watering down the entire MMO genre. GG

This game already is "failing" if (failling= loosing a lot of people that otherwise would have played) with lockouts lol.. although I have to say it's mostly the latency that's killing it for so many.

I'm supposed to get some DL and do Titan now to get the Gae Bolg but asked myself, what's the point...

My gear is good enough for the new dungeons, while Crystal Tower, Extreme Primals and Coil have lockouts so I'll be doing them with my main job... I should've made another character to play Dragoon. It doesn't seems that I'll accomplish much with it...

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That would be highly stupid business sense.

Be honest, if people were allowed to play coil 'how they wanted'. They would have quit and moved on by now. There are a staggering amount of people with little to no self-control.

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Your ignorance is astounding...

People are already quitting due to "nothing to do" because they raid 1 day of the week and then have nothing to do...

I have to agree with the OP. Lockouts aren't the problem, the game will get better when there is more content to do its just the game is only 4 months old and there is 1 raid so you can finish fast.

If you made a venn diagram of the people who quit because of lockouts and the people who would burn through all content in 2 weeks with no lockouts and then quit, I am guessing you would see most of those people in the same circle.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

A loot lockout on CT is ridiculous. When minimum entry requirements are iLvl 70 for coil, why would you lockout ilvl 80. In a sense, you can now gear up for coil with myth and ilvl 80, but ultimately, you are going to be able to go into coil anyway. That and it's been said to gear your other jobs in CT, but the lockout makes it mini coil.

I am hoping when the live letter hits tomorrow, they will talk about the loot lockout. It would have been nice if you got 1 free need lot, and the rest of the runs will be greed only.

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You need at least 10 hours in ct to get one piece of gear you need. That's the contents. that's 1.5 hrs per day.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That would be highly stupid business sense.

Be honest, if people were allowed to play coil 'how they wanted'. They would have quit and moved on by now. There are a staggering amount of people with little to no self-control.

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too bad your completely failed argument was proven wrong in 1.0 so easily. you were able to run av and cc until you were blue in the face every single day for hours on end and i doubt you can name anyone that entered arr with full darklight for every single class. they handled it properly there though because it actually had something called a lower droprate. it allowed you to have something to do all week long every week and when you got drops(outside of darklight) it was not unique/untradeable so you could sell them on the markets.

it is a nice attempt at using a shaky strawman though.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

too bad your completely failed argument was proven wrong in 1.0 so easily. you were able to run av and cc until you were blue in the face every single day for hours on end and i doubt you can name anyone that entered arr with full darklight for every single class. they handled it properly there though because it actually had something called a lower droprate. it allowed you to have something to do all week long every week and when you got drops(outside of darklight) it was not unique/untradeable so you could sell them on the markets.

it is a nice attempt at using a shaky strawman though.

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In 1.0 the droprates on darklight in AV or CC were like 1%. You were required to speed run to get the chests. This alone turned off most of the people playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In 1.0 the droprates on darklight in AV or CC were like 1%. You were required to speed run to get the chests. This alone turned off most of the people playing the game.

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they could remove the speed run part for the chests, but i would much rather run them over and over with the low drop rate like in 1.0 over being able to only do content once a week like i am currently. once there is more content released that could justify having a lockout it would be ok, but right now having the only few pieces of content on a lockout is pure crazy. that's part of where having more horizontal and situational gear would be much more beneficial over having one piece that is vastly superior to all the others. have multiple paths that are horizontal gear with situational stats not on lockout, but have new gear later that's put in that's BiS and have that be on lockout.

this way gives people something to do in between lockouts instead of running once and then logging out for the next 6 days. also, what turned people off is the i want everything given to me now crowd actually had to put time into running something more than once to get something they wanted.

You said it yourself you continue to log in each week get your caps then log out. You want people to keep paying to replay the same content over and over. I realise they do this in other MMO's I'm just tried of dealing with it. Considering this isn't the only game to choose from, if they aren't going to give us enough to do and not put restrictions on when we can do said content why exactly should we keep paying to play?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

You need at least 10 hours in ct to get one piece of gear you need. That's the contents. that's 1.5 hrs per day.

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wat.

Where did you get the idea you need ten hours to get a piece of gear? If you get lucky on the first chest, you are done for the week.

In 1.0 I could play 20hrs a week or I could play 70hrs a week and still make progression.

In 2.0 If I play more then 10hrs a week I find myself just jumping around limsa out of boredom.

2.0s model is much more fail. Content is better but it is so short lived they need to literally have 10-20times as much. And the wait until first expansion is a BS reason to wait because they are using the content negation method. So after next patch and level increase guess what... we will have a lack of content again in 2-3 weeks, because we will still only have 1-2 raids. The game design is just horrible... Honestly we need Yoshida's drive and ideas combined with Tanaka's ideas on longlived content. Would make the perfect mmo. ATM we are just getting short lived ultra casaul content only. I am for giving the casuals alot to do... but making the game 100% casual only is a horrible mistake on yoshidas part.

Devs need to give people a reason to keep paying... or more and more will stop. $15 a month is not worth 8days a month of content, that is more expensive then playing a f2p game where you have to buy power. Hell even f2p games that are making money on lockout reset scrolls have shorter lockouts timers then XIV. It is just nuts. We are getting less then a f2p game (without using the cash shop at all) and we are having to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

too bad your completely failed argument was proven wrong in 1.0 so easily. you were able to run av and cc until you were blue in the face every single day for hours on end and i doubt you can name anyone that entered arr with full darklight for every single class.

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This doesn't matter. You know why? Those same people who ran those runs for Darklight with a 1% drop rate took a survey asking whether they wanted lockouts or the same shitty drop rates.

Guess which won? Yeah, lockouts.

Very few people want shitty drop rates instead of lockouts. You are in the minority, accept that fact.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yes, i am in the minority i agree with that. i actually want to work for what i get instead of a 100% droprate on faceroll content given to me by only playing one day a week. i guess that makes you part of the majority.

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My post says nothing about me, but sure, let's go with that assumption. You know what they say...

As far as wanting to work for gear blah blah blah. Maybe this isn't the game for you? Try playing one of the permadeath hardcore MMOs out there? Don't try to change this one, because for a majority of people the way this one plays is just fine.

I don't have anything against lockouts. I just hate the way SE decided to implement already outdated content with worse restrictions than the "real" endgame. There's something fundamentally stupid going on here and it stems directly from the developers choice to rush Coil out for the release of the game instead of Crystal Tower, which is supposed to be the step after hard mode primals to get you ready for doing coil. They screwed it up, and added artificial gating purely for casual players, because coil players aren't going to need any of the gear available in CT except for vanity slots and rarely played alt classes.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

This doesn't matter. You know why? Those same people who ran those runs for Darklight with a 1% drop rate took a survey asking whether they wanted lockouts or the same shitty drop rates.

Guess which won? Yeah, lockouts.

Very few people want shitty drop rates instead of lockouts. You are in the minority, accept that fact.

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yes, i am in the minority i agree with that. i actually want to work for what i get instead of a 100% droprate on faceroll content given to me by only playing one day a week. i guess that makes you part of the majority.

MMO's had & have lockouts nothing new to see here. there just making you pay more to get gear.

Once more content comes out these lockouts will be removed. Ie the first expansion pack, so please make no mistakes the reason for lockouts is lack of endgame content nothing more nothing less. Its to keep people playing and paying, and that is perfectly fine. I mean we cant really do anything about it lol...

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Originally Posted by indira

MMO's had & have lockouts nothing new to see here. there just making you pay more to get gear.

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other mmo's also force you to level another character to play another class. this game doesn't fit that mold so the other mold should be adjusted accordingly.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

other mmo's also force you to level another character to play another class. this game doesn't fit that mold so the other mold should be adjusted accordingly.

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well looks like there doing a FFXI, remember they made that one too. not all other mmo's force you to change characters either.
FFXI dynamis used to make you buy a 1,000,000gil hour glass you can split 64 ways then win or lose you have to wait like 3 days before you can do it again it had low drop rates too. this is doing a more forgiving but limited way.

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Originally Posted by indira

this is doing a more forgiving but limited way.

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3 days is more forgiving than 7, and they got rid of the lock out in FFXI.

There's nothing to spend gil on atm, heck I'd take the timeless hourglass buying at this point if it reduced lockouts.

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Originally Posted by Allyra

3 days is more forgiving than 7, and they got rid of the lock out in FFXI.

There's nothing to spend gil on atm, heck I'd take the timeless hourglass buying at this point if it reduced lockouts.

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thats what i ment lol, but typed it backward