Perspective as "THE OTHER" tank class.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

now it should be "Get over here!" ala scorpion

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Haha! Nice!

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Originally Posted by FenHin

To the end, I grapple with thee

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Liking this one.

My myth tomes are burning a freakin' hole in my pocket... The Monday before the patch goes live I'll have 1950 myth and don't plan to spend any until then. Hopefully our heavy allagan drought ends before then, lol.

Honestly Zoomie, spring for the Gloves, the Boots and the Chest, they all give Acc and are better for us than Allagan.

I'd grab the helm too, since thats a T5 drop for us iirc. I would wait for Allagan pants and just wear Hoplite for a while though, exactly the same stats as myth, but it doesn't cost you 825 tomes. And grab the Hero's Ring if you don't have it yet.

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Originally Posted by AppleGrocer

Honestly Zoomie, spring for the Gloves, the Boots and the Chest, they all give Acc and are better for us than Allagan.

I'd grab the helm too, since thats a T5 drop for us iirc. I would wait for Allagan pants and just wear Hoplite for a while though, exactly the same stats as myth, but it doesn't cost you 825 tomes. And grab the Hero's Ring if you don't have it yet.

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Yeah I hear ya. My situation is a bit abnormal, which is why I plan to wait. I started Coil as a PLD and have the allagan boots and earring as well as the Hero's ring and bracelets. For a PLD those are all BiS, as a warrior the Boots are going to make my ACC interesting to say the least. I currently still run coil as a PLD because as 2.0 stands it would simply be a burden to bring my WAR. Part of my motivation to wait is that as of now I don't "need" the upgrades as a warrior as I don't do Coil with mine.

If that makes more sense.

Ah, completely.

Was planning on doing that with my BLM, but I decided I'd be okay with being a burden for a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Yeah I hear ya. My situation is a bit abnormal, which is why I plan to wait.I started Coil as a PLD and have the allagan boots and earring as well as the Hero's ring and bracelets. For a PLD those are all BiS, as a warrior the Boots are going to make my ACC interesting to say the least. I currently still run coil as a PLD because as 2.0 stands it would simply be a burden to bring my WAR. Part of my motivation to wait is that as of now I don't "need" the upgrades as a warrior as I don't do Coil with mine.

If that makes more sense.

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Just go with what you like dude. I am in a similar boat and just decided to go get my Warrior Myth gear. Next week I'll prob get my gloves (if I don't get them from T4 today or next week) and just be missing legs (RNG!!!!). The thing is, either way my co-tank was a PLD through and through. I enjoy and have enjoyed Warrior, but play PLD for most things. Even if 2.1 brings Warrior closer, but not *quite* up to PLD (the proposed changes make them look equal) having PLD/WAR is going to be better for the group overall. Having added slashing damage for tanks, Timed mitigation for fights, a damage lowering skill on boss, all is just a win IMO.

Point being if you like Warrior it will at least be viable come 2.1. If not tied for best tank, the combo will at least benefit your group. Its worth it either way. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

WAR's can pull just as much.

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If a WAR pulls just as much as a PLD, they require a lot more healing since they're doing without Wrath (because of Overpower spam) and have a terrible CD suite. Since they require more healing, the healer cannot contribute as much (or any) damage, which invalidates your last statement. When you've got a WAR tank, the healer can't DPS so, honestly, you'll only ever have 3 people throwing out AoE DPS regardless of composition. It's also not as if a WAR tank can contribute anywhere *near* the same amount of damage as a DPS or even a healer.


The other thing you're forgetting about is resource management. A WAR throwing Overpower often enough for the damage is make a difference is going to run out of TP *insanely* fast. Unless the BRD is giving out Army's Paeon (which means no Mage's Ballad, which means less damage from BLM and WHM), the WAR is going to have to have downtime at some point for resource regeneration.

That 10 minute WP is, by far, the fastest WAR speed run I've ever seen, but I know several groups that can reliably run 8 minute WPs with a PLD tank. Some of the most important tricks aren't in fighting the big trash packs either. One of the best ways to clip time off of the run is to minimize damage in the boss fights so that the healer can DPS the entire time. If your healer is having to do more than Regen on the tank on either of the two first bosses, you're doing it wrong (on the first boss, the only appreciable source of damage is the poison after the inhale which can be avoided by getting out of melee right after the cast finishes; on the second boss, the only appreciable source of damage is the Fire cast which can be avoided by simply running behind the boss).

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Originally Posted by Traek

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On the point of it being worth it either way I completely agree. My point in waiting is that I could get the allagan chest, legs, belt, gloves, bracelets, ring, and neck all before 2.1 comes out. Which is when I will start actually using my warrior in meaningful content and will make use of the upgrades. For now I'm saving my myth so I can "fill in the gaps" depending on what I pick up between now and then while running Coil as a PLD.

As far as "what I like"... I'm hoping and praying that the Allagan chest drops for us someday. We have yet to see even one across our FC. The higher ACC on that over AF+1 will help to offset my having the Allagan boots which lack ACC as compared to the AF+1 boots.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

On the point of it being worth it either way I completely agree. My point in waiting is that I could get the allagan chest, legs, belt, gloves, bracelets, ring, and neck all before 2.1 comes out. Which is when I will start actually using my warrior in meaningful content and will make use of the upgrades. For now I'm saving my myth so I can "fill in the gaps" depending on what I pick up between now and then while running Coil as a PLD.

As far as "what I like"... I'm hoping and praying that the Allagan chest drops for us someday. We have yet to see even one across our FC. The higher ACC on that over AF+1 will help to offset my having the Allagan boots which lack ACC as compared to the AF+1 boots.

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Your method certainly isn't "wrong", but I'd coordinate with your PLD co-tank if you haven't. Technically you could get all those things, but then you'd be gimping one tank in the raid (assuming he won't get them, if you do). You'd be better off planning out loot drops so you could both spend myth accordingly and be geared up in the mean time. Of course like you said it might not affect your Warrior right now, but that is part of what BiS lists are for.

As far as your boots.. Have you planned out the equip with using them? I have Allagan chest and I passed on boots for my PLD co-tank knowing the legs/boots combo would just screw me hard on acc. Until you get full Allagan (T5 helm) its going to be hard to even consider using Allagan boots. You do have Fending Earring so that'd greatly help your cause of course, with chest and Hero's belt that could push you close? Without acc on our relic it certainly is making balancing out equip much more difficult.

Not trying to argue btw, just thinking out loud and discussing. :)

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Originally Posted by Traek

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That list of drops was more a theoretical "What could drop and what I don't have". We use a suicide kings loot style so unless tanking i90 suddenly starts raining from the sky I won't be getting all of that pre 2.1. We've actually gotten about 60% DRG loot across our FCs history in Coil... kinda sad as we don't bring a DRG. Myself and our other PLD are certainly coordinating what we want. The only reason I have the boots is that I got them long before they said anything about buffing WAR and wasn't planning to swap at the time. If the chest, legs, belt, or ring drop they will default to me as our PLD either has them or has BiS for said location. He's not saving myth, like I am for my wonky plan, and as a result has the AF+1 chest/legs.

Yeah, I tend to go the BiS route myself so I suppose that's where my advice stemmed from.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Actually WP SR with WAR is alot faster than with PLD if you know what your doing. I've done it with both my WAR and PLD and since I've did it with WAR I never want to do it with my PLD anymore. The faster SR i've done with my PLD is about 17mins. I do 12min SR on a regular with my WAR.

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I run 10-12min WPs on my PLD, so I don't think that's it. Granted, the rest of your group composition can have something to do with it, my best times are with PLD/BLM/BLM/WHM (a WHM who knows how to swing Holy).

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

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So numbers 1,3, and 5 all state the same point, you do more aoe dmg than a pld, that's cool you take more dmg too.

Number 2 is kinda odd because I'll bet you most plds doing SR find that blms don't pull hate either so that's not really a point to either side.

Number 4 is just some of that propaganda certain players like to spew. It's been mathed to death now that wars in defiance don't do nearly the extra dmg that some say they do over a pld in shield oath.

Now, the war in my FC out tanks and out dmgs my pld daily. When he gears down to my gear and we match as I hope you guessed our dps is within 10 points or so of each other on the same target due to me getting his slash dmg up and less than 30 points in a "solo" test. That's 9000 dmg over 5 mins. Negligible. That's how much my mediocre drg does in 34 secs.

This isn't a pld is better than war post, this is a "don't act like your war is the king of the world" post.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Anyone else notice the mentality of some , certainly not all, PLD's towards WAR's? Perfect example of what I'm talking about: I get into a random duty finder Garuda cause I'm bored. The PLD has nearly 1500 less HP then me WITHOUT defiance up. Without discussion the PLD runs in to MT. Naturally he's squishy and has pathetic threat gen and on top of all that he makes no effort to dodge slipstream at all.

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The same happened to me when I went to help a friend with Cape Westwind. Plus, he started running around ruining the instance for everyone. I just stole aggro from him, tanked the boss up top and tanked the adds as well.

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Originally Posted by Setis_Dagre

I run 10-12min WPs on my PLD, so I don't think that's it. Granted, the rest of your group composition can have something to do with it, my best times are with PLD/BLM/BLM/WHM (a WHM who knows how to swing Holy).

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That's what I usually run. My favorite group is PLD/BLM/BRD/WHM. Nowhere near 8 minutes yet, though. Even @ 11 minutes it still feels like cheating. :p

Regarding the slightly off topic WP discussion, PLD/BRD/BLM/WHM is obviously the most effective combination of jobs. However personally I can seldom be bothered to wait around to build the perfect group, so I usually wing my tanking job according to the group I end up with.

WHM's Holy spam does insane damage, but is really only effective if you have a PLD tank (giving the WHM enough time windows to actually cast Holy). However, to uphold enmity throughout a whole SR against a BLM can be very tough without a BRD's Mage Ballad, forcing the WHM to waste time healing the BLM. In such cases, the WAR's Overpower spam certainly makes up for his increased damage intake.

If you're running with a SCH healer, the whole Holy-thing really becomes moot anyhow, and I sincerely believe that Overpower deals more damage than SCH's dot output (I may, however, be wrong in this).

So, essentially, if you have a WHM healer, but no BRD, I'd run WAR (provided that you have a strong AOE-job in the DD-department). Same goes for any setup with a SCH healer. With other words, the only time I actually run PLD is if I manage to land a perfect party setup. Or, say, WHM healer with 2 melee DDs, but then again that would hardly be classified as a SR setup.

I do much prefer the play style of WAR, though, so my personal favorite is actually SCH/WAR/BLM/BLM. Provided that everyone's well geared, I'm pretty certain you can push a run below 10 mins with such a setup.

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Regarding the more on-topic topic, I've never really run into any similar problems. I might just've been lucky, but I always have a short talk about who's going to MT, and never had any troubles arriving at a mutual solution. IE, best gear fills the most demanding spot, unless the difference is redundant in which case PLD is generally the better job for the job, so to speak.

yeah basically a paladin in lore is a justice filled goody goody Dudley Dooright type character that thinks he's better than everyone. I'm not surprised at all. I mean look at all the complaints about them fixing war. The paladin tears are over flowing. I got told to reroll so many times and countered with "No way in hell am I playing a paladin" to which I always got some bs about how war is useless. Well I must say pally tears are delicious. I hope they enjoy being forced to re-roll war in their pld only elitist guilds now that ideal set up is going to be 1 war 1 pld. (the way it always should have been). I even saw some noob yelling about how warriors don't need mitigation abilities because only paladins should have mitigation. If i didn't love FF i'd probably quit just knowing I'm part of a community that has the I.Q. of a withered squash.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Apparently you won't until Titan HM and Coil. Then it's pretty /sadface

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I have literally zero problem tanking in coil.. and I'll have even less of a problem after the patch lol

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Originally Posted by Bromancer

I have literally zero problem tanking in coil.. and I'll have even less of a problem after the patch lol

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Its not a matter of having problems. Its a matter of taking far more dmg than a PLD would in inferior gear.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

I'm more than happy to use either class when helping someone out with their relic, etc. Its just funny watching people treat me differently who don't know me, hehe.

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As a PLD my opinion is that I see all this complaint about how WAR needs better tanking stuff. Well what about the flip side of the coin? Why would SE give PLD a decent DPS option like WAR has the luxury of doing? If I go DPS spec, DPS mode, whatever, guess what I'm tanking and I friggin die. It's complete and total BS.

Much jellies for war flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Just go with what you like dude.

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Dawntay would hunt him down. Dawntay rages over Bard's +1ing their bow.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

4. Warriors can Boost DPS with combos In Defiance, PLD has to swith oaths to do more DPS (outside of Flight of Fight) Which will prolly get him killed.

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I tank AK, WP, HM Ifrit/Garuda without using Shield Oath.

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Originally Posted by Bromancer

yeah basically a paladin in lore is a justice filled goody goody Dudley Dooright type character that thinks he's better than everyone.

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The paladins in the lore are the elite guard of the sultana of Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If a WAR pulls just as much as a PLD, they require a lot more healing since they're doing without Wrath (because of Overpower spam) and have a terrible CD suite. Since they require more healing, the healer cannot contribute as much (or any) damage, which invalidates your last statement. When you've got a WAR tank, the healer can't DPS so, honestly, you'll only ever have 3 people throwing out AoE DPS regardless of composition. It's also not as if a WAR tank can contribute anywhere *near* the same amount of damage as a DPS or even a healer.



The other thing you're forgetting about is resource management. A WAR throwing Overpower often enough for the damage is make a difference is going to run out of TP *insanely* fast. Unless the BRD is giving out Army's Paeon (which means no Mage's Ballad, which means less damage from BLM and WHM), the WAR is going to have to have downtime at some point for resource regeneration.

That 10 minute WP is, by far, the fastest WAR speed run I've ever seen, but I know several groups that can reliably run 8 minute WPs with a PLD tank. Some of the most important tricks aren't in fighting the big trash packs either. One of the best ways to clip time off of the run is to minimize damage in the boss fights so that the healer can DPS the entire time. If your healer is having to do more than Regen on the tank on either of the two first bosses, you're doing it wrong

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This is all assumption based on the stigma of WAR's bad Mitigation. Healing is not as big of as an issue as people assume it to be because most people never tried WP SR with WAR. Healers have no issues healing me when I run SR, Espcially with SCH. When I SR with my FC WHM, He Spams Holy 2-3 Times a Fight.

With WAR, At least there is the possibilty for all 4 Players to AoE DPS. With PLD thats not even a option. Circle of Scorn is too weak to make a big enough impact..... Vengeance every 2mins, Steel Cyclone, and Berserk Overpowers on the other hand.....

Dont knock it until you try it. I have both PLD and WAR and I never touch my PLD when I do WP SR's unless its a pug group where it is a dice roll on how geared players are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcNVJYTAZow

The Run Above Demonstrates WHM can Spam Holy with WAR in Party. Also Debunking your theory of how TP and MP would be a issue if BRD uses Army (This video didnt even have a BRD). Also, The WAR in the Video didnt have any ilvl 90 Accessories nor did he have Full Allagan/AF. Im sure if he/she did ( or even Better, Gryphonskin Accessories) the run would be faster.

Just so you know...that link you made, there is a youtube link of a Paladin doing it in Darklight gear in lesser time.

That run involves a Warrior being much better geared by comparison.
Let alone speed runs are hardly indicative of tanking capability, because they involve people being over geared for the content, so it is hardly a valid comparison for tanking capability at all.

If you overgear the instance to the point that the stronger defensive cooldowns of a PLD don't matter to keep the tank alive, then sure Overpower actually doing damage will make it the better option.

Holy blows Overpower's damage out the window, as not only do healers have a ton of Mind (compared to tanks generally not having tons of strength) that gets converted with Cleric Stance (+10% damage on top), they generally have plenty of Crit or Determination as well that tanks, as a general rule, won't have in abundance. As long as PLD allows a WHM to spam more Holys than they could with a WAR (Hallowed Ground says hi), they'll still be the faster option. I'm sure someone can do the math to figure out how many extra Holy spells a WHM needs to get off compared to the number of Overpowers used before the pull is dead.

With a SCH the extra durability a PLD's cooldowns provide is less of a concern, since SCH doesn't have a whole lot of aoe oomph past Shadowflare (roughly equal to one holy if it's up for the full 30s duration). They usually aren't gonna have time to cast dots and bane them (to a mere 3 other targets) and Miasma II hits like a wet noodle. The Slow from Shadowflare also lowers the incoming damage, making a WARs lack of hyper-awesome defensive cooldowns less of an issue as well (compared to the few seconds of stun from Holy followed by nothing for the rest of the pull). There is the haste buffs from Selene, but depending on their rotation of choice a BLM is often waiting on static mana regen ticks (every 3s) to repeat their aoe rotation so haste from Selene may not really speed things up for them all that much. That's all mostly to say that much like PLD vs WAR, SCH can do just fine as well if the player doesn't have WHM leveled (though a bit more clearly behind WHM in terms of speed provided) and probably is better paired with a WAR so that Overpower can offset the loss of Holy, as the PLD cooldowns shouldn't be needed.

There's also the point that a PLD can afford to use sprint, though I think that's mostly a 'at a lower gear level than WAR' thing, as eventually arriving with low TP won't matter for the WAR either. Likely more of a gear level of the party as a whole (how fast packs die) rather than PLD vs WAR gear difference.


That said, both tanks can do the instance pretty fast. Everyone knows that how good your WHM is (and aoe dps in general) is a large factor in how fast the run goes.

Post 2.1 should be interesting for WARs at multiple gear levels, between the Vengeance buff, the ability to Inner Beast as Holy is hitting stun DR to smooth the transition into healing/eek out another Holy (otherwise Steel Cyclone/Unchained may be the better usage), and being able to spend Wrath from Infuriate without losing the healing buff in general.

I love running content with a WAR. Only time it gets harder is when the WAR is taking 1k+ damage. Which is really only in Titan and coil. I think the stigma comes partially from people who just don't understand how WAR mechanics work.

I did a higher level dungeon with a DF WAR who kept dropping all his wrath stacks as soon as he hit 5 stacks even if he had almost full health. He also wasn't positioning the mobs in front of him. The healer was spamming to keep him up and would eventually pull hate. I made a few suggestions, and the healer who mains as paladin talked with him about some basic tanking. The warrior was very grateful for the suggestions and the difference was immense. I'm sure a lot of people would have just written it off as "warriors suck." With all the paladin cooldowns some basic tanking mistakes can be convered up where warriors are left exposed when making the same mistakes.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

I did a higher level dungeon with a DF WAR who kept dropping all his wrath stacks as soon as he hit 5 stacks even if he had almost full health.

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I'm guilty of this also, but thats only because I'm over Geared so when I farm AK, I Spam Steel Cyclone & Inner Beast 2-3 times a fight. Makes things alot quicker. half the time healer spam holy or dps and doesnt heal because fights are over quick. Now that in 2.1 you wont need wrath for healing bonus, expect to see WAR's go Berserk.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I'm guilty of this also, but thats only because I'm over Geared so when I farm AK, I Spam Steel Cyclone & Inner Beast 2-3 times a fight. Makes things alot quicker. half the time healer spam holy or dps and doesnt heal because fights are over quick. Now that in 2.1 you wont need wrath for healing bonus, expect to see WAR's go Berserk.

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I usually run AK with a WAR. I notice very little difference healing them in this content and will ask them to pull about 6+ mobs at a time. Only one time when the tank pulled a large group with the dullahan, was then crit for 6k followed by a 1.1k crit from a second mob was I /sadface.

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Originally Posted by Bromancer

I have literally zero problem tanking in coil.. and I'll have even less of a problem after the patch lol

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Literally? Lol, then after the patch you'll have -1 problem?

But I agree, once a tank is geared enough to pass Titan's gear check, tanking Titan is rediculously easy. Now, getting a team together who can do the tough side of the fight, that can be a little harder.